Migration

[Kila]

Taking my suggestion from this thread and giving it its own topic, because it's better to have a narrow, more focused suggestion than a broad topic full of X number of suggestions not getting attention.

 

So the basic premise of this is that during certain times of the year, certain dragons would not be found in the cave (with the exception of rares and possibly uncommons). This would help cycle the dragons, making them "more desirable" when they finally return to the cave.

 

Another idea would involve a certain species migrating from one biome into another, though that probably wouldn't help the current issue of eggs just sitting in a biome...

 

Think of this like the Seasons. For X number of months, Breed A won't be found in the desert.

 

This would only affect the biomes themselves. Breeding would not be affected.

 

Of course, problems to think about would be ratios, coding difficulty, picking what breeds migrate when and for how long...

 

Anyways, discussion is encouraged. Help me figure out more pros and cons to this idea, because it's late and my brain is half functioning.

 

Edit: Another possible idea would be to make the migrating breeds significantly harder to find while CB.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Kila

[RheaZen]

I love the idea, adds realism to the dragons in terms of behavior. I can't see people saying that it's unfair that they can't get X dragon in Y season when we already have seasonals (who can't even breed out-of-season babies whilst these dragons would be able to).

 

As for migrating between biomes, the only problem I see with that is a possible overload - ex since summer-winter migration seems to be fairly common in dragons (judging off what I've seen from dragon concepts) the jungle might get crowded.

[HeatherMarie]

I think this is one of the better options for "unwanted" breeds. I definitely like this idea.

[Rally Vincent]

I wonder what would happen if certain breeds migrate. Would that mean that the ratio of other common dragons would have to rise during that time? In that case, would - say, the jungle - just produce so many more Dorsals (to keep common:rare-ratio intact) which would block the jungle during neotropical migration period?

[Fuzzbucket]

Sounds interesting, if it's codable. There would need to be a VERY detailed section in the FAQ - and it would be hard on non-forum players !

[olympe]

As much as I like to support everything that helps the current issues DC has due to too many breeds, I'm afraid that migration might cause more problems than it solves. Even if it does not affect breeding at all.

• If certain commons are not available for 3 months in a row, the cave will flood with them even worse than before when they are back, making the breeds even more abundant than they are now. And I doubt that their value will rise enough for people to pick them up en masse.
• Also, like biomes, the migration idea might backfire. Before, we had around three or four blocker breeds that could sit in the cave for several minutes. Now, we have one or two blocker breeds in every biome - blockers that can easily sit there for half an hour. I'm afraid that, with migrating dragons, we'd still have one or two blocker breeds in every biome at every time of the year, and I really don't know how long they can sit there without being picked up. Maybe until the next full hour?
• Another question to address: If dragons are mostly migrating between places in summer and winter (or mayb e hibernating/aestivating), thereby affecting their ratios - what happens durinh spring and fall?

Edited for clarification.

Edited August 18, 2011 by olympe

[Fiona]

I think one con with the idea of migrating from biome to biome is that for a lot of species with specific habitat references in their descriptions it wouldn't make sense. Though there are some breeds that it would make sense for. So that part of the idea I think would be of limited benefit, though it might be fun.

 

One caution on the idea of migrating breeds out of the cave for periods of time is maintaining some sort of balance. The balance between biomes now is mostly pretty good. Choosing which breeds go when would need to take that into consideration.

 

 

Other than those two cautions, I like this idea very much. I don't think golds, silvers or trios should migrate. Probably not unbreedables either.

 

 

One effect that I can see happening is that for breeds that are currently away on migration, breeding eggs of that breed will become easier, which would be a plus for popular breeds, and probably neither a plus or a minus for less popular breeds. Because TJ has said that breed ratios are now enforced for breeding the code would try to maintain the numbers of each migrated breed through breeding alone.

[olympe]

One effect that I can see happening is that for breeds that are currently away on migration, breeding eggs of that breed will become easier, which would be a plus for popular breeds, and probably neither a plus or a minus for less popular breeds. Because TJ has said that breed ratios are now enforced for breeding the code would try to maintain the numbers of each migrated breed through breeding alone.

I still doubt that this enhanced breeding will help with getting blockers back into "normal" numbers. Do you really think that people will breed enough greys/canopies/neos/pebbles/stones/guardians/waterwalkers/whatnot so the cave won't be flooded with them once they are available again? It might work out for pebbles and stones (geode-fails), but I don't see it happening for the other blockers.

[Fiona]

I think if current blockers migrate out, large numbers of them blocking the cave is inevitable, regardless of any effect on breeding, when they return. The hope would be that at least for a short time people would pick more of them up, because they were unavailable for awhile. People's need for cb of those breeds would have gone unmet while they were away.

 

Of course, people's need for cb of the popular breeds would also have gone unmet while they were away. Hopefully breeding them alone while they are on migration would not make up the numbers needed, so they also drop more plentifully while they are back.

[TJ09]

You keep talking about blockers migrating.

 

Don't forget, the breeds you want will also migrate.

[Dianacat777]

I don't really see how this would change much, because the breeds that block are constantly changing as is. I can recall times where Blacks, Vines, and Pinks were an utter nuisance. I can also recall times where the AP was consistently spammed with Mints, Whites, (Frills), and Nocturnes. Now you see a lot of Storms and Spitfires. In a few months, it'll be something else. Making some breeds more common at certain times and rarer during others is just going to make what breeds become blockers predictable; I don't think it'll change the problem of blocking itself.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Dianacat777

[rawr0401]

I kind of like this idea because than eggs will be more "desirable" at certain points of the year and eggs would be cycled more

[olympe]

You keep talking about blockers migrating.

 

Don't forget, the breeds you want will also migrate.

That, too. And I can so hear the outcry of "I want a [insert desirable breed here] NAO!"

[Fiona]

One effect that I can see happening is that for breeds that are currently away on migration, breeding eggs of that breed will become easier, which would be a plus for popular breeds

Yep, TJ. I was thinking that for certain breeds like stripes and blacks, which are super popular, migrating would be a plus in some ways. While they're away from the cave of course, cave eggs wouldn't be available, which would be hard. But we'd be able to breed those breeds and actually get eggs, which would be a nice change.

 

There's no way migrating out the more popular breeds would be universally loved. Also, people would be excited about the less popular breeds migrating away at first, but not particularly happy when they come back. But I think perhaps the pluses might outweigh the minuses. At least it may be worth a try, if we can come up with a good, balanced plan.

 

Actually.... *fevered brain in gear Uh OH* what would happen if we had enough rare and uncommon breeds for those to take turns migrating away for short periods? Say the golds migrate out for 2 months? No cave eggs, but wouldn't golds breed better during that time?

[Rally Vincent]

Yep, TJ. I was thinking that for certain breeds like stripes and blacks, which are super popular, migrating would be a plus in some ways. While they're away from the cave of course, cave eggs wouldn't be available, which would be hard. But we'd be able to breed those breeds and actually get eggs, which would be a nice change.

I can't see anything good to make popular breeds migrate. There are players who don't need bred eggs, but caveborns. Blacks are scarce because they have been overbred, and not because there are too many caveborns.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Rally Vincent

[paradoxangel]

During migration, would be the breed be completely impossible to get, or just really really hard? I'm not sure I like the idea of them disappearing completely, but maybe popping them out at about the rate of uncommons or trios or rares during that time frame and calling them "stragglers" would make it more fun. The breed doesn't /entirely/ disappear, but basically getting a cb during that time would be rough. Because waiting 3 months to even have a chance of getting a cb I might need for a lineage would be maddening.

[elynne]

You keep talking about blockers migrating.

 

Don't forget, the breeds you want will also migrate.

I don't think I understand this comment.

 

There will always be some people who want a limitless supply of any breed--I'm sure there are people who are collecting spitfires and whiptails, or using them in breeding projects. But when talking about "desirable eggs" produced in the cave, I think it's pretty obvious that some "equally common" eggs are far more desirable than others, or at least far more sought after. Those would not be cave-blockers. And there isn't any reason to make -those- breeds seasonal, since they are -always- wanted. They aren't cave-blockers. Blacks, reds, stripes, magi... obviously, as stated above, the BSA breeds shouldn't be seasonals, as their BSAs would be wanted all year round. But there isn't any need to make -all- the common dragon breeds seasonal.

 

Aside from the comments on the forums about which breeds are popular and which aren't, is there some way for you to check the records and see which breeds are obvious cave-blockers? Or some way to create a record-keeping system for this? It wouldn't be anything complex, just "average time between creation and stealing for X breed: Y seconds." Sort that by the number of seconds, and you'd have a very clear list of which top eight breeds (two for each season) would be excellent candidates for becoming seasonals.

 

[~!~]

I don't think I understand this comment.

 

There will always be some people who want a limitless supply of any breed--I'm sure there are people who are collecting spitfires and whiptails, or using them in breeding projects. But when talking about "desirable eggs" produced in the cave, I think it's pretty obvious that some "equally common" eggs are far more desirable than others, or at least far more sought after. Those would not be cave-blockers. And there isn't any reason to make -those- breeds seasonal, since they are -always- wanted. They aren't cave-blockers. Blacks, reds, stripes, magi... obviously, as stated above, the BSA breeds shouldn't be seasonals, as their BSAs would be wanted all year round. But there isn't any need to make -all- the common dragon breeds seasonal.

 

Aside from the comments on the forums about which breeds are popular and which aren't, is there some way for you to check the records and see which breeds are obvious cave-blockers? Or some way to create a record-keeping system for this? It wouldn't be anything complex, just "average time between creation and stealing for X breed: Y seconds." Sort that by the number of seconds, and you'd have a very clear list of which top eight breeds (two for each season) would be excellent candidates for becoming seasonals.

Not to speak for TJ, but I would assume that he doesn't want to adjust availability of any breed based on how many people want that dragon, just because the opinions of the users shouldn't have that kind of influence on how the game works.

[Ketsala]

Aside from the comments on the forums about which breeds are popular and which aren't, is there some way for you to check the records and see which breeds are obvious cave-blockers? Or some way to create a record-keeping system for this? It wouldn't be anything complex, just "average time between creation and stealing for X breed: Y seconds." Sort that by the number of seconds, and you'd have a very clear list of which top eight breeds (two for each season) would be excellent candidates for becoming seasonals.

As someone mention before, the species that count as cave blockers can change rather rapidly. I can remember times where it was impossible not to see an overload of Skywings or Mints or Whites when checking the AP, for example. By the time the current cave-blockers will have migrated back, a completely different set of commons would be the problem.

 

Besides, why would only a handful of breeds migrate, unless it was specifically stated in their description that they would do so? If we're randomly making species migrate, it should be indiscriminate- nothing in-game states some would be more or less likely than others to do so. If some migrate, they all migrate, regardless of their popularity.

[elynne]

Not to speak for TJ, but I would assume that he doesn't want to adjust availability of any breed based on how many people want that dragon, just because the opinions of the users shouldn't have that kind of influence on how the game works.

 

But the opinions of users is having exactly that influence on how the game works right now. It's affecting the drop and breeding rates of commons, which is affecting how -everybody- plays. If people had no preferences for one breed over another, there wouldn't be any of the "problems" that people are talking about here. If you get down to that kind of question, you (or TJ) have to decide: do you leave things as they are and unequivocally state "There -will- always be undesirable breeds, and shortages of breeds that people want, that's just the way it works"--which makes all of the threads talking about this situation completely moot; or be willing to accept making changes, which will, because of the nature of the game, be determined at some level by the opinions of the users.

 

As someone mention before, the species that count as cave blockers can change rather rapidly. I can remember times where it was impossible not to see an overload of Skywings or Mints or Whites when checking the AP, for example. By the time the current cave-blockers will have migrated back, a completely different set of commons would be the problem.

 

Yes, and that relates to the quote above: there -will- be changes in population, based on what users want. Things will change, but they will have an opportunity to change more frequently--so you won't have a year-long glut of spitfires and lack of mints; instead you'll have a seasonal glut of spitfires, and when the season changes, the spitfires vanish and are replaced by mints. It would make the cave more flexible and dynamic, which is what people are basically complaining about here: having to see the same eggs blocking the same biomes and filling the AP over and over for days and weeks on end. It would not make the situation perfect, of course; there is no magic solution that would do that. But it would at least allow for more variety, which would keep the game more interesting.

 

Besides, why would only a handful of breeds migrate, unless it was specifically stated in their description that they would do so? If we're randomly making species migrate, it should be indiscriminate- nothing in-game states some would be more or less likely than others to do so. If some migrate, they all migrate, regardless of their popularity.

 

I don't see why that's necessary. Not all the species have different male and female sprites. Not all the species have BSAs. There's no reason preventing some species from migrating and others not. Some birds migrate, and others don't.

 

I would also strongly suggest that the seasonal idea apply -only- to commons. It's difficult enough to get an uncommon or rare CB; there's no reason to add to -that- difficulty. Nobody is complaining about uncommons or rares blocking the biomes for hours on end, which is what the seasonal mechanic is meant to help alleviate.

[Ketsala]

Yes, and that relates to the quote above: there -will- be changes in population, based on what users want. Things will change, but they will have an opportunity to change more frequently--so you won't have a year-long glut of spitfires and lack of mints; instead you'll have a seasonal glut of spitfires, and when the season changes, the spitfires vanish and are replaced by mints. It would make the cave more flexible and dynamic, which is what people are basically complaining about here: having to see the same eggs blocking the same biomes and filling the AP over and over for days and weeks on end. It would not make the situation perfect, of course; there is no magic solution that would do that. But it would at least allow for more variety, which would keep the game more interesting.

 

This is exactly why we want migration! I'm just saying that trying to determine which dragons are cave-blockers and which aren't is somewhat futile; the very nature of cave-blockers is that they change. You would have to constantly re-appraise the site to figure out which ones to take away and which ones to keep, which sounds less like "migration" and a seasonal, in-game phenomenon and more like TJ withholding specific breeds when they get too prolific. I don't think TJ likes to implement that kind of specific and direct change to the site.

 

I don't see why that's necessary. Not all the species have different male and female sprites. Not all the species have BSAs. There's no reason preventing some species from migrating and others not. Some birds migrate, and others don't.

 

In that case, you'd have to make it consistent that they were a migrating species. And eventually, the migrating species would be wanted instead being considered a cave-blocker, but they would still be migrating, which ruins the whole idea that you had in the first place.

[elynne]

I see your first point; that making a species migrational would almost automatically shift it out of "undesirable" into "desirable" status, regardless of what its status is now, and once that status has been shifted off of any given species, it will drop onto another one sooner or later. There will always be unwanted caveblockers, and if the current unwanted caveblockers are made migrational (which makes them desirable and makes them no longer unwanted caveblockers), other species that don't migrate will -become- unwanted caveblockers, regardless of how popular they are at this time. With that understanding, yes, it frees up more possibilities to make commons migratory without taking into account their -current- popularity.

 

In that case, you'd have to make it consistent that they were a migrating species. And eventually, the migrating species would be wanted instead being considered a cave-blocker, but they would still be migrating, which ruins the whole idea that you had in the first place.

 

I don't follow, here. If you're saying, as above, that it makes determining which commons to make migratory by popularity -now- will just swap them out with another species, then yes, I understand that. Currently, none of the species are "migratory," so there's nothing to be consistent with now; if the code was changed to make them seasonally available, a few lines could be added to their descriptions, saying something like "This species is migratory and is abundant in the fall."

 

I understand that adding the migration mechanic to some species won't make the "unwanted caveblockers" phenomenon disappear; but it will make it change more frequently, which is I think the intention.

 

I know I use too many big words and long sentences. If what I'm writing is unclear, I apologize for my writing habits.

[Ketsala]

I don't follow, here. If you're saying, as above, that it makes determining which commons to make migratory by popularity -now- will just swap them out with another species, then yes, I understand that. Currently, none of the species are "migratory," so there's nothing to be consistent with now; if the code was changed to make them seasonally available, a few lines could be added to their descriptions, saying something like "This species is migratory and is abundant in the fall."

 

I'm just trying to say that if a species is migratory, it's migratory always. In your original idea it sounded like you just wanted the cave blockers to migrate because they were cave blockers, and I'm responding to that by saying if you migrate them they won't be cave blockers anymore, and you can't stop making them migrate; if a species is a migrating species, they stay that way. I dunno? Sometimes my brain goes off without my thinking about it. I'm probably arguing against a point you haven't made or agreed with.

 

I know I use too many big words and long sentences. If what I'm writing is unclear, I apologize for my writing habits.

 

I won't get too offended by this statement, cuz I know what you're trying to say, and you just phrased it a bit off.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Ketsala

[Kila]

Yes, the entire intention of this suggestion is to make the cave move more; to make it more dynamic. There will always be breeds labeled as "undesirable". This suggestion isn't to get rid of that. It's to keep the eggs cycling, like the Season Dragons.

 

At the beginning of each season, those dragons are highly sought after. Towards the end, they sit longer. Then a new season comes around and people start looking for CB's of the new season, making them grow in popularity. The idea is to make all commons in the cave have waxing and waning desirability, just like the seasons.

 

As for the lineage argument, the seasons already make people wait a year to get a new CB of one particular season. A three month wait for Spitfires to come back is far less of a wait than a year.

 

If people can wait a year for their spring, they can wait a few months for their Pebble.

 

This suggestion would target all commons equally. The only dragons not targeted would be rarest and uncommons.

 

Sorry for not replying to other arguments right now. I'm on my phone, and that makes quoting nearly impossible. I'll chime in with my other two cents when I return home.

 

Keep discussing, guys! This topic is going swimming c:

Edited August 18, 2011 by Kila

[Lythiaren]

*puts on devil's advocate hat*

 

The way the userbase as a whole works is that things that are rare will always be valuable and anything common is garbage unless it can be used as a crutch to get at the rare things (pebbles/stones [geodes], waters/deepseas/skywings [blunas], blacks/vines [alts], and to a lesser extent vamps), has a practical low-risk use (pinks, reds, magis, maybe purples) or is exceptionally pretty (sunsongs, whites, etc).

 

So making the commons rotate by seasons would only be quick fixes. While they're gone, unpopular breeds will be highly desirable purely because they are rare, but only CBs are really wanted because bred eggs will still be common. Once they're back in the caves, they'll be back with a vengeance. They'll be common again and once again they will be garbage. It's not going to shift them into "desirable" status for long; as soon as they're back they'll be snapped up for maybe 2-3 weeks. Then they'll go right back to blocking. In the long run, people will figure out the pattern and it will go in reverse; once they're back everyone knows they're back and they're common. They'll pick some up at the very end of the cycle to use as trade fodder, but for the rest of the time they'll be trash.

 

All I can see with this is making the blockages more predictable, not lessening the blocking overall. That said though I'm tired of raising spitfires. I don't like them as much as I used to because I keep raising them anyway to make people stop whining about them blocking the bloody desert. Can something else block yet so I can raise that instead?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Lythiaren