ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[Sarah864]

I'm for more raffles. I think they're fun and it gives something to look forward too when there are no holiday or new releases. I actually prefer the market based economy aspect of DC but that's just me. I'm not going to insult others because they play differently or for different reasons than I.

[Syphoneira]

I think that "not breeding because too common" thing likely has more to do with the extreme contrast between the value placed on shorter and longer lineages.

 

I stopped breeding anything over 6th gens some time ago, (have typically swapped one Prize offspring for one more same-gen Prize of another line to increase the breeding pool and gifted from then on, up until recently) because almost nobody wanted them, even when they were pretty and didn't look at all 'big' on the lineage page.

 

(We have now gone beyond judging strictly on physical appearances, lol.)

 

Now the 5th or 6th gens which are generally the best I have much chance of producing are presented as gifts, or for the occasional trade attempt, with some trepidation, and with a notation that people are welcome to gift or trade them on, if they don't suit, because so many have no use for them or don't want multiples of the same lines because so few people want their offspring, there's no point in extra.

 

This is perceptual; everything now is being measured against the assigned value of one category of dragons within their top 3 gens and (edit: by contrast) found drastically wanting - yet much of this assessed value is beyond that of the beauty of the sprite and based on what it typically takes to obtain them, due to the extreme scarcity of these gens.

 

Fix the extreme scarcity, and the problems begin to subside.

 

DC is not, I hope, run for the purpose of making a few people 'rich' but for people to have fun collecting dragons and engaging in whatever available variety of activities they enjoy, rather than focussing on trading for one specific category and gen. area of dragon which most can't afford, most thereby being effectively restricted/shut out of the fun in not only trading but gifting and areas of lineage creations and collecting.

 

The raffles are great, they just need some tweaking to remove the problems we've been seeing.

 

 

Edit: this is a collection site and I personally don't see an issue with people 'hoarding' the dragons they like, since that's what we're here for.

 

But if the site itself creates scarcity issues to the point where it's literally game-changing in a restrictive fashion which affects the great bulk of players, making many unhappy with a game they may have played for years, and encourages great degrees of disparity between a lucky/fast few and the rest of the players, there's a problem, and it's typically in these areas that discouragement sets in in those playing a collection game for fun and relaxation, away from the stressors of life.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Syphoneira

[Vhale]

I want a moon pie on a stick now :<

But yes, I've had metals that were messy put up for claim in the ffa thread, with no takers. People have jumped the shark with the 2nd gen or bust train. But, that being, is still doesn't negate that the dragons go extinct when the owners quit. And probably the best way to alleviate that would be to have more of them produced at some point. Whether that be multi clutching or more prizes or a release after a couple years. Or even all three.

[Renorei]

I don't think it's so hard to get your hands on a Shimmer or Tinsel that the number of CBs needs to increase. Yes, it's hard to get a 2nd or 3rd gen one, but IMO, it should be. The number of CBs given out in past years seems pretty much perfect to me, because the average person shouldn't have trouble getting one a few months after the initial prizes are given out as long as they aren't picky about lineage, but the low-gen ones are rare enough and valuable enough that trying to get one through trade is a challenge. It's pretty much perfect--everyone can get one for collection purposes (might not be the best lineage), and the people who love having the rarest, most special thing can trade an arm and a leg to get a 2nd gen, and then turn around and trade 3rd gens for nice things too.

 

Seems like a lot of this complaining about the lack of CBs essentially boils down to people upset that they can't get low-gens. But nobody said anyone was entitled to them. You can absolutely still get tinsels and shimmers for free if you aren't picky about lineage--they show up in the AP fairly often and there are people on the forums who will happily gift prize eggs.

 

If someone needs a Shimmer or Tinsel just so they have the sprite, there are plenty of people that would gift them. Probably won't be low-gen, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find one that's not inbred, even if it is a 6th or 7th gen. If people honestly feel that it's too difficult to get one, even one with a longish lineage, then it seems it's time for these people to raise awareness of the fact that a lot of people still don't have any. I freely admit, I have only 3 Tinsels that I breed on a regular basis, the rest I rarely ever breed. And yes, it is in part because I feel I "can't get anything for them" but I am also operating under a perception that "everybody already has them" in which case, I don't see much point in breeding the higher gens if most people don't want/need them--makes more sense to me if I refrain from breeding them which frees up room in the ratios for more lower-gens. If someone doesn't have any they should speak up--start a breeding/gifting contest, put a wishlist in their signature, etc. I have no problem breeding and gifting eggs from most of my Tinsels but I haven't been doing it because it doesn't seem like most people still need them. I'm sure a lot of other people are in the same boat. We'd be happy to breed more and send them to the AP or gift them but it just doesn't seem like there's a big need anymore.

 

Do most DC users honestly not have any Tinsels or Shimmers? If a lot of active users do have them, then what this thread really seems to boil down to, in my opinion, is "I'm upset I can't get a 2nd/3rd/4th gen Tinsel/Shimmer", not "I'm upset because I can't get one at all!" Because the number of CBs seems to be perfect as-is, IMO, because within several months people start giving away higher-gens for free, but the 2nd and 3rd gens remain valuable.

 

ETA: I just put three free Tinsel eggs in the Community Notice / Departures Thread.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Renorei

[Fuzzbucket]

Seems like a lot of this complaining about the lack of CBs essentially boils down to people upset that they can't get low-gens. But nobody said anyone was entitled to them.

Nobody said winners should be able to control the game, either - but that seems to be what is beginning to happen.

 

And either way - the actual number of prizes (including special dragons) should be proportional to the number of entries.

[EscapistLore]

I don't think it's so hard to get your hands on a Shimmer or Tinsel that the number of CBs needs to increase.  Yes, it's hard to get a 2nd or 3rd gen one, but IMO, it should be.  The number of CBs given out in past years seems pretty much perfect to me, because the average person shouldn't have trouble getting one a few months after the initial prizes are given out as long as they aren't picky about lineage, but the low-gen ones are rare enough and valuable enough that trying to get one through trade is a challenge.  It's pretty much perfect--everyone can get one for collection purposes (might not be the best lineage), and the people who love having the rarest, most special thing can trade an arm and a leg to get a 2nd gen, and then turn around and trade 3rd gens for nice things too. 

 

Seems like a lot of this complaining about the lack of CBs essentially boils down to people upset that they can't get low-gens.  But nobody said anyone was entitled to them.  You can absolutely still get tinsels and shimmers for free if you aren't picky about lineage--they show up in the AP fairly often and there are people on the forums who will happily gift prize eggs.

I, for one, don't care about the trading value. But I like making lineages, and by the time you get to 3-4G, the lineage and mates are pretty much already set for you. At this point, yes, higher lineages are fairly easy to come across, as far as I know, but that doesn't help me in that, those lineages are very clearly stairs or spirals. I've been told the EG's I value more will be worth less, which is fine (Again, I don't care too much for trade value). I have slow internet, so catching CB Metals isn't an option. The ones I have, I was very generously gifted (yes, you know who you are <3).

 

It's more than just hard, to get a 2G, its nigh on impossible for someone like me. I like lineages, I like making pretty ones that people will appreciate. I -adore- silver prizes, just for the sprites, and it saddens me that I can't make the lineages I want to because there are so few CBs out there.

 

And, do we really need the value to stay so high up? Would it hurt so badly, to have more CBs? I'm asking, as I don't see why having something worth so much is good...

 

Thanks for reading.

-Esc

 

Edit- Fuzz... exactly.

Edited January 3, 2014 by EscapistLore

[Guillotine]

Except that lineage players like myself are currently left out in the cold, especially if we can't catch large numbers of metallics, and the current much-too-small CB population is very vulnerable to vanishing entirely if their owners get bored with the game. (And again, the latter is already happening with Tins.)

 

I cannot currently DO anything with the majority of Shimmers and Tins out there, and it makes it hard to sustain interest in higher gens like I can with my Ridgewing and Neb/Grey lines. A lineage player who dislikes stairs is left even further out, since the majority of Tins and Shimmers are either messy or stairs.

 

I value second-gens because I can actually DO something from that point with the dragon's offspring, be it trade them or use them to build a lineage that isn't a yet another mono-breed stair.

 

fake e: Beaten, but my point remains.

[Renorei]

Each individual player controls how they play DC, and what sort of lineages they make. If making pretty lineages without having to struggle to get your starter dragons is a goal, make it with something besides prize dragons.

 

I'll never be able to make a lineage with Frills, Old Pinks, and I probably will never be able to make one with Hollies...not a big one anyway. *shrug* So I'll make a lineage with something else.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Renorei

[Fuzzbucket]

One can go creative:

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/QaTP8

http://dragcave.net/lineage/8TTpH

http://dragcave.net/lineage/rw6u3

 

 

And yes, of course do it without prize dragons. I usually do.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/guffg

 

But I don't think it's right to try and restrict prizes in the extreme, either. .025% is not a reasonable proportion of winners.

Edited January 3, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[EscapistLore]

Each individual player controls how they play DC, and what sort of lineages they make.  If making pretty lineages without having to struggle to get your starter dragons is a goal, make it with something besides prize dragons.

I think its more than just being a struggle. ^.^ Getting a CB gold for me is a struggle. Doable, though, so I'm ok with it. Getting a 2G Prize isn't do-able for me, not in the slightest. Which makes me sad. I adore silver shimmers.

 

Now, if there were more of them, then the price would drop to the point where I'd have a chance. Small chances are ok. No chance... then it just feels like the games I've quit because there are the elite few, and then the vast majority. Which shouldn't be what DC is, I fell in love with this game because of the fact that you can -usually- do anything you like, and play your way.

 

So, in your opinion, how would having more hurt? I understand the point of people being greedy and wanting more, but wanting more = less value which rather counteracts the greed. I think, anyways.. So I'd like to understand where you are coming from. Maybe there is a point I'm missing.

 

Edit- And, I guess I don't think of them like Holidays. To get a Holiday dragon, you need to be there during the event to get the eggs. The eggs do not randomly migrate to one scroll and not another, if both are there during the time they drop and try to get eggs. Everyone who is there at that time can get an egg or two (or more in Halloween's case). Prizes though, don't give everyone active the opportunity to get them.

Edited January 3, 2014 by EscapistLore

[Fiona]

Each individual player controls how they play DC, and what sort of lineages they make.

That's not entirely true. For example, I'd love to be able to make even gen checkers with tinsels and metals or shimmers and metals. I can't do that because the trading prices for 2nd gen tins and shimmers or 2nd gen metals from tins or shimmers is prohibitively high. And, for people's information, I can afford to pay a lot for things. I can't catch cb metals, but I can generally trade for them.

 

The fact is that unless a player is willing to be restricted to easy-to-catch commons, right now what lineages they build is limited by what the market value of their desired breeds have.

 

It's not bad to have some hard to obtain dragons. Right now it's my opinion that the gap between what's hardest to obtain and what is easy to obtain may be a bit too wide. The result is easily seen in the cave as many perfectly lovely dragons are ignored because they aren't "rare enough" to bring the desired trades. I believe this is the root of why so many breeds just sit there in the cave. Their "trade value" is perceived as negligible, so people aren't willing to "waste an egg slot" on them when there is any chance they'll be able to get something "better."

 

ETA: and just to make further Guillotine's point - anyone who wants 2nd gens from frills or old pinks has only to PM someone who has them and is willing to breed them, like... me, for example. I don't really trade those. They get bred when someone asks. Free.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Fiona BlueFire

[Guillotine]

Each individual player controls how they play DC, and what sort of lineages they make. If making pretty lineages without having to struggle to get your starter dragons is a goal, make it with something besides prize dragons.

 

I'll never be able to make a lineage with Frills, Old Pinks, and I probably will never be able to make one with Hollies...not a big one anyway. *shrug* So I'll make a lineage with something else.

 

Except that you can build lineages with discontinueds in them for very little (or at least get them without paying an arm and a leg), and I have seen 2nd-gen Hollies go cheaper than 2nd-gen common Prizekin. That's not normal or something even remotely within the average player's ability to trade for, and makes for a pretty wide gulf between the people who can trade for such things and those who can't.

 

There's rare, then there's "damn near impossible to obtain if you aren't buddies with the owner/also own a CB prize". The latter is the cause of 90% of the extreme marketplace inflation, which would be alleviated by the whole "have raffle winners be proportional to the population" thing.

 

e: And what Fiona said is true as well.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think its more than just being a struggle. ^.^ Getting a CB gold for me is a struggle. Doable, though, so I'm ok with it. Getting a 2G Prize isn't do-able for me, not in the slightest. Which makes me sad. I adore silver shimmers.

 

Now, if there were more of them, then the price would drop to the point where I'd have a chance. Small chances are ok. No chance... then it just feels like the games I've quit because there are the elite few, and then the vast majority. Which shouldn't be what DC is, I fell in love with this game because of the fact that you can -usually- do anything you like, and play your way.

*Nods a bajillion times over*

 

That was the big hook of DC for me as well. Unlike so many sites, there wasn't an elite. You couldn't pay to get rares. There weren't many limited-time-only-ever releases. There weren't limits on how many dragons you could get. And that, to me, was awesome.

 

Clearly things have changed since then. We have limited-time CB Holiday releases, and we have discontinued dragons, for example. Both things I still campaign against when I get the chance, but by and large it looks like nothing will happen on either front, as the artists in question are firmly against their re-release (...isn't letting DC use your art supposed to mean the art is used as will benefit the site rather than just you? Meh.)

 

But here, with raffles, I feel there's still a chance to set things right and reduce the feeling of there being an uber elite. And I mean seriously uber ultra elite. In the past weeks, I have offered:

 

- Two different 2g Thuweds

- A 2g Holly

- 4x CB Metals

 

For a 2g Prize. Know how many takers there were? Zero! Nada! None! It really has become a super elite circle where the only ones who can get them are friends of the owners, or others who own CB Prizes.

 

And that really stinks. For one, it means many of us will never be able to make real lineages with those breeds. It's easy enough to say "focus on something else," but for a game where the focus is usually on "do what you will," it's a rough pill to swallow. On top of that, as has been mentioned, the trading system has entirely flipped upside-down. All the very best things (and some of the lesser things, too) are stuck in trades desperately searching for things most of us will never get, which in turn keeps them out of the rest of the market. Trading used to feel rough, yes, but possible. CB Metals and NDs were the top of the line, and while hard to get, it was doable. 2g Hollies were above that, but even those had a chance of being snagged for free in the AP. Now, however, there's a new top line--and it's one many of us will never reach.

 

I get that real life is unfair and has plenty of things that we'll never be able to get, but running up against that issue in a game that used to feel pretty balanced is unpleasant.

Edited January 4, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Renorei]

I just like the fact that they are as rare as they are. I have never been a prize winner, but I like the fact that there are dragons that exist that can regularly be traded for a CB metal (3rd gens) or multiple CB metals (2nd gens). To me it makes the game more exciting and interesting. It is literally the only way I was ever able to obtain a decent number of CB metals (trading 3rd gen Tinsels), because I've only ever caught two or three of them from the cave on my own.

 

I own three 2nd gen Tinsels and for two of them, I didn't have to give up any CB metallics. (I don't remember what I gave up for the 3rd one, sorry). For my gold one, I traded a bunch of Shadow Walker eggs and hatchlings. Any other user could have done this as well since we never had a Halloween limit. I was still able to catch or trade for a few Shadow Walkers for myself so I wasn't "left out" that year. For another, I made and traded a Neglected hatchling. Although it will probably take a few tries, any other user can do this as well. If someone is unable to catch Metallics, this is a sensible route to take. A lot of users are perfectly content to hunt the cave for Metals but they get bored of experiments. So fill that niche. Make a Neglected and trade it for nice things. Trade it for a low-gen prize or for something that you can later use in an offer on a low-gen prize.

 

Getting a low-gen prize is possible through some hard work, time, and commitment. It doesn't all come down to "Only people who can catch lots of CB metals can get them" because that certainly doesn't apply to me...as I said, I haven't caught very many in my time on DC. Yes, I have seen some outrageous offers in the trading threads for prizes but from my experience those aren't the only offers that prize owners take. Getting a low-gen prize is an attainable goal if you are willing to work for it. And I very much like the fact that users can work hard to get something and then turn around and trade the offspring of their new prize dragon for nice things too.

 

If we make CBs more common, 2nd gens will be a lot less valuable and 3rd gens won't have much worth at all...maybe a CB trio, at best. It will make DC the same dull game (trading-wise) that it was before the Tinsels were introduced. If you want a low-gen, I think you should work hard for it and sacrifice (like I did) rather than complain that the CBs aren't common enough. Quite literally, if CB prizes become substantially more common, it will be taking away the most fun part of the game for me. I take pride in knowing that I gave up a lot for my 2nd gens but in turn I'm able to use the 3rd gens to get nice trades too. It's a gratifying feeling, like busting your butt to open a business and seeing it become profitable. That fun aspect of the game will largely go away if TJ gives out huge number of prizes, and 1% of users IS huge compared to the numbers from past years.

 

I support the prizes multi-clutching, people being able to ask for them as HM prizes in the future, and maybe even them being added to the cave as rares some years later (like, 4 years after "retirement"). This allows everyone the chance to get the dragon they want while at the same time not taking away an essential part of the game from the "work hard ---> profit" players like myself...or at least, not for a couple of years anyway. But introducing a lot more CB prizes right off the bat (and let's face it, there would be hundreds of them if TJ gave them out at a rate of 1% per entry) would totally wreck the playing style and goals of players like myself. The argument behind having there be a lot more CB prizes essentially comes off as "The current situation doesn't benefit my playstyle with this particular breed so it should change even if it practically kills another playstyle."

 

How would lineage players feel if people who played the way I played made a thread asking for a popular common lineage breed (white dragons, for example), to no longer drop in the cave and start breeding like rares because it would suit our playstyle, because we'd be able to trade white dragons for nice things? You'd be annoyed because you'd been using these dragons in your playstyle for years and now suddenly you won't be able to use those same dragons for your playstyle. That's how I would feel if suddenly there were hundreds of CB prizes given out every year, except worse, because prize dragons are pretty much the only breeds that are suitable for my style of play, and you'd be taking those few breeds away, so my entire playing style, goals, fun, etc., goes poof! Lineage players already have 87 common/uncommon breeds (or color variants of common breeds) and 10 fairly attainable rare breeds (I'm including golds and silvers in this) that suit their playing style. People that want to play the way I do have a grand total of 2 breeds that suit our playing style, with the hope that it might be 3 breeds this year. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if you have 97 breeds with which you can play with your way, that it's a little bit greedy to come after the 2 breeds that don't suit your playing style at the expense of someone else's.

[WraithZephyr]

The simple truth is: If people were NOT willing to pay multiple CB Golds, then the Thuwed would not have traded. Guess what? Several people were. That's trade value, NOT greed. Its like saying that a dealership that asks $100k for a top end sports car is greedy. No, they are not greedy. Supply is limited, and the demand high, and THAT means that the PRICE is going to be high. Thuweds and 2nd gen prizes are extremely limited, and the demand is high. So the price will be high.

I have to agree. people will pay what they feel is fair for something they really want. What one person thinks is fair - another might call greedy/unfair.

 

Trade values are constantly going up and down like crazy - just like the stock market. Hollies are a good example. Last year I had a 5th gen two-breed spiral egg from my 4th gen holly. I offered it up for trade - not asking for anything specific just looking for offers. It sat unwanted as an egg for several days. Then it sat unwanted as a hatchling for the longest time. Eventually it traded for couple of 4th gen gold eggs (IOUs) about a day before it would have grown up. This year I bred the same pair again.. the 5th gen egg was actually traded before it was ever produced and I got a CB gold for it! I just happened to see someone post about a week before breeding opened up for the season who was looking for a nice holly who had a CB gold ready to hand over. I sent them a PM just for the heck of it. I honestly didn't really expect them to accept my offer since the holly egg I would have to offer would be a dreaded "5th gen"... but to my shock they accepted.

 

My best tinsels are 2 silver 3rd gen stairs. Their 4th gen eggs sometimes bring in good trades and sometimes I have a hard time practically giving them away. If I ever ended up with a CB or 2nd gen prize dragon, I'd probably have a hard time giving 2nd/3rd gen eggs away too ROFL.

 

 

[Guillotine]

 

Hundreds of CB dragons to support a playing population of tens of thousands (yes, really) is not making them not-rare, it's making them easier to get for the average player and reducing the quite frankly insane stranglehold low-gens have on the market. Why are you so stuck in the idea that having a couple hundred CB prizes out there will make third-gens "worthless" when those couple hundred dragons' offspring are being competed for by thousands of players? Because I can assure you that it would not make that enormous a difference given the proportions involved.

[Nakuru]

Although it will probably take a few tries, any other user can do this as well.  If someone is unable to catch Metallics, this is a sensible route to take.  A lot of users are perfectly content to hunt the cave for Metals but they get bored of experiments.  So fill that niche.  Make a Neglected and trade it for nice things.  Trade it for a low-gen prize or for something that you can later use in an offer on a low-gen prize. 

 

No, that's not a really option.

 

Many of us have tried several times to create a Neglected and got only failures. That's why they are also are one of the rarest Dragons here, because even though there seems to be a method that increases the chances, most of us don't know it.

 

And that's ok, really, the challenge for these obtainable-yet not obtainable Dragons it's even fun, but it's not possible for many players.

 

The same goes for many of the "ways" you and other people have mentioned in this topic, because if it was really possible for more users to get someday a low gen Prize we won't even be talking about this.

 

In fact, that "hard work" part you mention is the way I got several Tinsels and my first Shimmers. But they aren't low gen [5th and 6th gen, in fact] and I'm not surprised, because the market price inflated TOO much and not having good networking skills and not being at the right place at the right moment to be able to have a chance in "working hard for something rare" (and let's be honest here, those chances are extremely rare, and despite checking trade topics frequently I have seen ONE 2nd gen Prize being offered in all those years) means not having a chance at all.

 

Trying to fix this, so certain rare Dragons are still rare but not unobtainable to 99.8% of the players it's not that bad.

 

And hey, there are more CB metallics in the cave now than some years ago (when seeing a CB Metallic was so unusual that it was possible to not hear about anyone seeing one in months) and that hasn't made them less valuable. So having some more CB Prizes would make their eggs devaluate that much? I have a hard time believing that.

[EscapistLore]

 

Hundreds of CB dragons to support a playing population of tens of thousands (yes, really) is not making them not-rare, it's making them easier to get for the average player and reducing the quite frankly insane stranglehold low-gens have on the market. Why are you so stuck in the idea that having a couple hundred CB prizes out there will make third-gens "worthless" when those couple hundred dragons' offspring are being competed for by thousands of players? Because I can assure you that it would not make that enormous a difference given the proportions involved.

I agree. Reno, I see your point, I really do. But when it gets to the point where it is right now... imo, its beyond ok. We need to find the balance where these dragons will still have value (I don't want them as common as the moonstones and greys I love so much), but where people can actually have a chance at getting them.

 

Having one percent of entries win... lets say we have 50,000 active players. 1% is 500 dragons. Now, each of those dragons.. I read somewhere that Luckiest Catch produced 15 Shimmers in the past year. Lets bump that up to 20. Those 500 dragons can only breed enough for 10,000 people. There are still 40,000 left without 2Gs. (I think we have more active players, TBH, but thats a rough guess.)

 

It'll make the price go down a little quicker, perhaps. Will it make them worthless? I don't think so. Just more obtainable.

 

Edit- And forgot to mention, not all of those 500 would be Prize dragons, there would be HM too.

Edited January 4, 2014 by EscapistLore

[Renorei]

Because I can assure you that it would not make that enormous a difference given the proportions involved.

No, you can't. You literally have no possible way of knowing that the value of 3rd and 4th gens won't be substantially affected. In all likelihood, it will be. If hundreds of CB prizes are given out instead of 30 or 60, there's that many more 2nd gens being produced every week, so someone who might have considered a 3rd or 4th gen to be a good trade for their nice egg will now not settle for anything less than a 2nd gen since there will be many many times more 2nd gens floating around.

 

Trying to fix this, so certain rare Dragons are still rare but not unobtainable to 99.8% of the players it's not that bad.

Tinsels/Shimmers are absolutely more obtainable than that. The 2nd gens, not so much. But the average user can still get Tinsels/Shimmers without much trouble.

 

Should TJ give out hundreds of CB Hollies next year too so more users can have 2nd gens in the future? Most people wouldn't suggest that for Hollies so why should it apply here?

 

There ought to be at least a few things in DC that are incredibly hard to get. 2nd gen prizes and 2nd gen Hollies fill that niche.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Renorei

[EscapistLore]

Tinsels/Shimmers are absolutely more obtainable than that.  The 2nd gens, not so much.  But the average user can still get Tinsels/Shimmers without much trouble. 

 

Should TJ give out hundreds of CB Hollies next year too so more users can have 2nd gens in the future?  Most people wouldn't suggest that for Hollies so why should it apply here? 

 

There ought to be at least a few things in DC that are incredibly hard to get.  2nd gen prizes and 2nd gen Hollies fill that niche.

Hollies were also available to all players who played at that time. Prizes are not available to all currently active players.

 

So, rare, yes. But all who played at that time could have gotten one had they so chosen to get a holly. No matter if I have room or not, nothing I do will ensure I can get a prize or HM. If I had played back in 2007, and had room, I could have gotten a Holly.

Edited January 4, 2014 by EscapistLore

[Nakuru]

Trying to fix this, so certain rare Dragons are still rare but not unobtainable to 99.8% of the players it's not that bad.

Tinsels/Shimmers are absolutely more obtainable than that. The 2nd gens, not so much. But the average user can still get Tinsels/Shimmers without much trouble.

 

Should TJ give out hundreds of CB Hollies next year too so more users can have 2nd gens in the future? Most people wouldn't suggest that for Hollies so why should it apply here?

 

There ought to be at least a few things in DC that are incredibly hard to get. 2nd gen prizes and 2nd gen Hollies fill that niche.

And we're talking about low gen ones, so?

 

And even if we extend the talk to longer gen ones, at first, too, it was almost impossible to get a not-that-short linage Prize because most people were only looking for lineage exchanges, so not getting one in the first place made impossible to get one.

In fact until some months ago that was the issue with Shimmers.

 

Hollies are not the same because: Multiclutches.

I missed on the AP, but saw, some 2nd gens last Christmas, which means it's not impossible to get one, but the same doesn't apply for Prizes.

 

It's also worth to mention that Hollies are given all years as an option for HM; and if I remember correctly there were more HM in the last raffle than in the first one.

So if you want to compare them with Prizes, having more CB ones given in the raffle would be, in fact, the normal progression of the game.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Nakuru

[TJ09]

.025% is not a reasonable proportion of winners.

I wasn't going to comment on this earlier, but it's come up numerous times.

 

Your sample number is off by a factor of 100.

 

Based on the source assumption of 100 prizes and 4,000 entries, you end up with 100/4000 = 0.025 = 2.5%.

 

Unless whoever posted that meant to assume 400,000 entries.

[DarkEternity]

I have offered up CB metals in the double digits (about 10-16) for 2g prizes from August until now, with not a single offer. (Apart from the time when someone asked for 6 CB coppers - when they literally didn't drop. Yeah they really didn't want any CB metals D/) It's simply the fact that anything obtainable is not regarded as rare.

 

Compare this with the 30+ 2g hollies I saw and promptly missed on the AP. Of course, with Hollies at least they multiclutch pure (aka all the produced are hollies in numbers ranging from 0-4).

Edited January 4, 2014 by DarkEternity

[Syphoneira]

The extreme scarcity of the Prize dragons, and the shrinking of the progeny becoming desirable gifts or trades to 2nd-4th gen levels doesn't just affect the availability of the lower-gen Shimmers, but of the dragons typically acceptable in trade for them.

 

Would so many of the faster people devote so much time and effort to loading up a scroll-full of CB Golds/Coppers/Blusang (so that the less speedy therefore lose any chance they might have had of catching any) if not to trade for 2nd-gen Shimmers?

 

Would trades have altered from a variety of dragon types and lineages once commonly offered to a predominance of Shimmers, Tinsels, and CB metals, Coppers and Blusangs?

 

The Shimmer sprites are always pretty, and so are some of the lineages at 6th gen and past - but may not be a welcome gift to many.

 

The whole balance of DC has shifted by the rarity issue having been taken to extremes.

 

When the trade value of certain dragons becomes more important than the dragons or the players themselves, and when trade issues become the priority of many on a collecting site, the site is in trouble.

[olympe]

So fill that niche. Make a Neglected and trade it for nice things.

Like what? Seriously, I've tried that several times. Even CB neglecteds don't fly for all that much. And how do you get someone willing to trade a 2nd gen shimmer or tinsel for a neglected? Where?

 

And I very much like the fact that users can work hard to get something and then turn around and trade the offspring of their new prize dragon for nice things too.

Hard work? Right. If I'd believe that, I'd probably be still trying for my first self-caught CB metal. No matter how hard I "work", I won't get them. I had to accept that a long time ago. And once, when I actually would have gotten one and didn't because the site hiccoughed, I very nearly quit. I mean, imagine clicking on a CB gold - your very first! - when you have one egg slot left. Then clicking the red egg that turns up in its place. Now, if you're there, imagine looking at what you got - and finding that you got the red - and an "overburdened" message for the gold!

 

And, please, no more rares. We've got enough rares and über-rares as it is: golds, silvers, coppers (in three variations, no less), blusangs and the still very elusive trios. I'm just happy that, with GW, STDs and blacktips, we have at least some shiny dragons that are pretty easy to come by.

 

People that want to play the way I do have a grand total of 2 breeds that suit our playing style, with the hope that it might be 3 breeds this year.

Two official breeds with 3 color variations + spriter's alt each. Hollies. Spriters' alts of most holiday dragons (yulebuck, snow angel, ribbon dancer, winter magi, wrapping wing, solstice x 2, sweetling x 2 (plus black alt), rosebud x 2, heartseeker, arsani x 2, pumpkin, shadow walker x 2, cavern lurker, grave). Just about 28 really rare things to collect. Not to mention the "regular" rare breeds - like blusangs. Or 2nd/3rd gen Thuweds.

 

Having one percent of entries win... lets say we have 50,000 active players. 1% is 500 dragons. Now, each of those dragons.. I read somewhere that Luckiest Catch produced 15 Shimmers in the past year. Lets bump that up to 20. Those 500 dragons can only breed enough for 10,000 people. There are still 40,000 left without 2Gs. (I think we have more active players, TBH, but thats a rough guess.)

Not only would some of them be HM prizes - as you already pointed out further down in your post - most likely, there will be 3 different versions once again (gold, silver, bronze) Or maybe we'll get a different scheme this year - diamond, ruby, emerald, sapphire spring to mind.

 

So, rare, yes. But all who played at that time could have gotten one had they so chosen to get a holly.

From what I heard, that's not quite true. Hollies were really hard to get because of lag and the fact that they didn't mass drop. Plus, there were the original leetle trees interspersed.