ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[DarkEternity]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with olympe. Unless you're in the right place at the right time, even a CB Neglected will not trade for anything.

Edited January 4, 2014 by DarkEternity

[EscapistLore]

@Olympe- I wasnt around for Hollies, so thanks for the clarification. I think my point is, everyone, even if it was hard, could catch one. Just like now, I cant catch a CB gold, but they are there.. Prizes... if you dont win the raffle, there is no way to get a CB. No, oh I missed it, lets wait for the next one.

 

@TJ- Thanks for the clarification. Would you share your thoughts, or is that asking too much?

 

And.. yeah. You may be able to make tons of neglected, but unless a list is open, you are out of luck.

 

I'm not arguing everyone gets one. Not by a long shot. But.. more people should. So we at least feel we have a chance.

[LaHaine]

From what I heard, that's not quite true. Hollies were really hard to get because of lag and the fact that they didn't mass drop. Plus, there were the original leetle trees interspersed.

 

Wait what? There were two leetle trees "mass drops"? I was here for one of them in 2008 or 2009 I think and caught many for different people who couldn't because of the lag, but I don't remember it being the year of the hollies x.x

Edited January 4, 2014 by LaHaine

[Syphoneira]

Wait what? There were two leetle trees "mass drops"? I was here for one of them in 2008 or 2009 I think and caught many for different people who couldn't because of the lag, but I don't remember it being the year of the hollies x.x

 

 

I don't recall hearing about Leetle Trees being dropped in 2007, just that Hollies were few and far between when Dropped, something TJ luckily fixed in the years following.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Syphoneira

[whitebaron]

What many of you are overlooking, is that more cb prizes also means less second gens per cb prize owner due to ratios. As such, I think it would not change much, as cb owners would soon get a lot more reluctant to trade them cheaper... After all, they only breed like once a month or maybe even only once in six weeks now. Double that for double the cbs, and we're looking at 4 2nd gens to trade per year....

[Amazon_warrior]

And even if we extend the talk to longer gen ones, at first, too, it was almost impossible to get a not-that-short linage Prize because most people were only looking for lineage exchanges, so not getting one in the first place made impossible to get one.

In fact until some months ago that was the issue with Shimmers.

Well yes. Because it does take time to breed a higher gen from CB. Unless of course you take a CB and mate it to some 10th gen tangle, but I doubt anyone would be queuing up to thank you for doing that even if it's perfectly within your rights as the owner of that dragon. But it was apparent that the Shimmers, with twice as many initial CBs as the Tinsels (and comparatively more active owners for the same total number of CBs) spread further and reached higher gens far faster than the Tinsels did the year they were released.

 

 

And to the people complaining that they get no offers of 2nd gen Prizes for assorted things in the trade threads - it really does come down to the list issue. We really are damned if we do, damned if we don't on that front. And I obviously can't speak for others, but I would certainly feel that the "Awful CB Prize Owner" tag would be more justified if I decided to blow off the poor people waiting ever so patiently for eggs from Luckiest Catch just because some random and apparently already quite "wealthy" person happened to wave a fistful of shinies around the place. My 2nd gen waiting list is always a consideration and I am unwilling in the extreme to add to it, especially when Shimmers breed as reluctantly as they do.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[LaHaine]

Well yes. Because it does take time to breed a higher gen from CB. Unless of course you take a CB and mate it to some 10th gen tangle, but I doubt anyone would be queuing up to thank you for doing that even if it's perfectly within your rights as the owner of that dragon. But it was apparent that the Shimmers, with twice as many initial CBs as the Tinsels (and comparatively more active owners for the same total number of CBs) spread further and reached higher gens far faster than the Tinsels did the year they were released.

 

 

And to the people complaining that they get no offers of 2nd gen Prizes for assorted things in the trade threads - it really does come down to the list issue. We really are damned if we do, damned if we don't on that front. And I obviously can't speak for others, but I would certainly feel that the "Awful CB Prize Owner" tag would be more justified if I decided to blow off the poor people waiting ever so patiently for eggs from Luckiest Catch just because some random and apparently already quite "wealthy" person happened to wave a fistful of shinies around the place. My 2nd gen waiting list is always a consideration and I am unwilling in the extreme to add to it, especially when Shimmers breed as reluctantly as they do.

I think people meant that. Everyone is so far into lists or they already have what they want that it is almost impossible now to get into that circle and obtain 2nd gens, and some 3rd gens, no matter what the offer is or how kind the PM is

[Amazon_warrior]

I think people meant that. Everyone is so far into lists or they already have what they want that it is almost impossible now to get into that circle and obtain 2nd gens, and some 3rd gens, no matter what the offer is or how kind the PM is

I know. Which is why I said we're damned either way because unless you're willing to be extremely tough about it, there are always people clamouring to be "on a list", or a list of people you want to gift to. It's human nature, unfortunately, and I think there's a portion of responsibility for that to go both ways. :s

[Nakuru]

Well yes. Because it does take time to breed a higher gen from CB. Unless of course you take a CB and mate it to some 10th gen tangle, but I doubt anyone would be queuing up to thank you for doing that even if it's perfectly within your rights as the owner of that dragon. But it was apparent that the Shimmers, with twice as many initial CBs as the Tinsels (and comparatively more active owners for the same total number of CBs) spread further and reached higher gens far faster than the Tinsels did the year they were released.

You misunderstand what I meant when I talked about the "not being able to get a prize without one first".

 

I'm not talking about getting one immediately, because yes, that's impossible, but the fact that months after, when there are many long linages already, people still only search for swamps of the same of lower gen. And I get the reasons behind that, but it's also why it takes a while for that to change, so for a while very few people can get prizes at all, even when lower gens are available and not that valuable.

 

And although you point that Shimmers spread faster, people where more aware of their value and took longer until more people where willing to trade a seventh gen for something that wasn't another seventh gen.

 

Of course, now people even gift longer gens so Shimmers can be attained but anyone now, but it's not a wonder for people to grow impatient after months attempting to get one without any luck.

 

When people stop caring about them, though, it'll became harder for new players to get them since very few will breed them.

If there are more linages to be attained, though, there's a chance for people to keep their interest and breed every now and then their Prizes (not only their short gen ones) if they do keep playing.

 

So that's the point. It's not about ratios (that's another issue altogether), but about more CBs (mostly for retired Prizes to be future HM, though also for increasing a little the one in the main raffle) so low gens can keep existing even when most actual CB owners do stop playing.

 

(And I hope this makes sense, I didn't sleep a lot last night and I fear I could be making little sense right now @o@)

[Fuzzbucket]

I wasn't going to comment on this earlier, but it's come up numerous times.

 

Your sample number is off by a factor of 100.

 

Based on the source assumption of 100 prizes and 4,000 entries, you end up with 100/4000 = 0.025 = 2.5%.

 

Unless whoever posted that meant to assume 400,000 entries.

Those weren't my numbers; I quoted them from someone posting that those were the chances. I take your point, numberwise, but also point out that the calculation wasn't mine; what I have ALWAYS advocated was 1% - which is 1 in 100, or 100 in 10,000.

 

Though 100 prizes in 4,000 entries actually gives .25%, not 2.5, now that you mention it. 10 prizes for each 400 entries; one for each 40...

 

 

Just saying.

Edited January 4, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Amazon_warrior]

You misunderstand what I meant when I talked about the "not being able to get a prize without one first".

 

I'm not talking about getting one immediately, because yes, that's impossible, but the fact that months after, when there are many long linages already, people still only search for swamps of the same of lower gen. And I get the reasons behind that, but it's also why it takes a while for that to change, so for a while very few people can get prizes at all, even when lower gens are available and not that valuable.

 

And although you point that Shimmers spread faster, people where more aware of their value and took longer until more people where willing to trade a seventh gen for something that wasn't another seventh gen.

 

Of course, now people even gift longer gens so Shimmers can be attained but anyone now, but it's not a wonder for people to grow impatient after months attempting to get one without any luck.

 

When people stop caring about them, though, it'll became harder for new players to get them since very few will breed them.

If there are more linages to be attained, though, there's a chance for people to keep their interest and breed every now and then their Prizes (not only their short gen ones) if they do keep playing.

 

So that's the point. It's not about ratios (that's another issue altogether), but about more CBs (mostly for retired Prizes to be future HM, though also for increasing a little the one in the main raffle) so low gens can keep existing even when most actual CB owners do stop playing.

 

(And I hope this makes sense, I didn't sleep a lot last night and I fear I could be making little sense right now @o@)

Ah, I see. Yeah, not really sure there's a lot to be done about that, though personally I've never been much of a one for obsessively collecting Tinsel/Shimmer lines myself because the stair-step thing completely bores me (if that wasn't already blindingly obvious!). That's not to say I haven't done Tinsel and Shimmer swaps, I have, but I more often trade Tinsels and Shimmers for other things I happen to want instead (usually CBs I'm still collecting or lineages I'd like for projects).

 

I do disagree about the value thing, though. I recall trading fairly long-lined Tinsels for CB Shadow Walkers the first year that Tinsels were released. I'm not talking 5-6th gen, here - more like 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th gen. And I didn't get my first Tinsel until the end of July because someone very kindly gifted me it. I didn't get the impression that people trying the same thing with Shimmers and CB Graves this last Halloween were having much luck (although I could be wrong).

[Vhale]

I very carefully hoarded shimmer hatchlings for the big mass release that we had, and traded them for IOUs etc on new releases during that week with great success. But that was about the end of shimmers with long lines being worth much. There were still a lot of trades during that period where people were trying to trade shorter, rather than longer.

[Syphoneira]

If Prizes are on a ratio system, shouldn't there be a point right about now where ones on scrolls quit being counted for the year?

 

Or am I talking through my hat again?

[Amazon_warrior]

If Prizes are on a ratio system, shouldn't there be a point right about now where ones on scrolls quit being counted for the year?

 

Or am I talking through my hat again?

No, I think you're right. And I'm personally praying for it so that I can hand out more shiny things.

[Syphoneira]

I've also notice that longer Prize lineages produce, where shorter ones that people actually want tend not to.

 

Since 6th gens are typically not wanted by many people any more, I was thinking of trying to stick to breeding 4th gens and under, barring requests or whatever, which cuts me back to having only a few highly reluctant producers, but it would be better than producing gifts or the attempted trades which I've lately been trying that very few are interested in, and perhaps raising the chances of producing wanted ones at least a little more often.

 

I'd pretty much stopped breeding stairstep dragons 6th gen and over some time ago, barring the odd pretty line that I thought certain persons might appreciate, and it seems to be time to move that a gen back.

 

I'd encourage others also having having mostly longer lines they're still breeding to consider this, or at least breeding slightly shorter lines than they have been, since even if we ourselves don't directly/immediate benefit, it might improve the available pool - and breeding unwanted gifts or trades isn't a whole lot of fun or worth-while anyway.

 

Obviously, this is an individual decision, and it would take a lot of people trying this to make a difference, but if it caught on, it might help - and, as stated, who wants to give people gifts of dragons they may take only out of politeness?

[olympe]

Those weren't my numbers; I quoted them from someone posting that those were the chances. I take your point, numberwise, but also point out that the calculation wasn't mine; what I have ALWAYS advocated was 1% - which is 1 in 100, or 100 in 10,000.

 

 

 

Just saying.

True so far.

 

Though 100 prizes in 4,000 entries actually gives .25%, not 2.5, now that you mention it. 10 prizes for each 400 entries; one for each 40...

 

Not true any more. In order to get it in percent, you need to find out how many prizes there are in 100 entries.

 

100 prizes in 4000 entries

10 prizes in 400 entries

2,5 prizes in 100 entries

= 2.5%

 

However, if my memory isn't faulty, there were several ten thousand entries. (Around 40000, I think. Maybe even more?) So, uh, your calculation might have been off - but the result looks pretty darn accurate anyway.

Edited January 4, 2014 by olympe

[Guillotine]

e: Nevermind, misread a post.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Guillotine

[Fuzzbucket]

True so far.

 

 

Not true any more. In order to get it in percent, you need to find out how many prizes there are in 100 entries.

 

100 prizes in 4000 entries

10 prizes in 400 entries

2,5 prizes in 100 entries

= 2.5%

 

However, if my memory isn't faulty, there were several ten thousand entries. (Around 40000, I think. Maybe even more?) So, uh, your calculation might have been off - but the result looks pretty darn accurate anyway.

Wasn't my calculation in the first place, so no worries !

 

Either way - we need to hit 1%.

[Syphoneira]

Wasn't my calculation in the first place, so no worries !

 

Either way - we need to hit 1%.

 

 

 

At least - and if the ratios are this low - why?

 

The scarcity has created so many problems within DC, changing the whole emphasis of the place toward trading for shorter-gen Shimmers and toward trading overall, rather than the dragons themselves, and this is very sad for a dragon collecting site...

[whitebaron]

 

 

At least - and if the ratios are this low - why?

 

The scarcity has created so many problems within DC, changing the whole emphasis of the place toward trading for shorter-gen Shimmers and toward trading overall, rather than the dragons themselves, and this is very sad for a dragon collecting site...

I dont think this is true for the whole dc userbase, just for the forums. Which is likely less than 10%, as even games with very active communities (which dc is only,in,the spriting section) fail to hit that number.

 

 

Btw: longer prices producing more, is just because most people have more longer gens than shortee ones. My best producing shimmer is a 3g, over 25 eggs in a row (fails as,well, of course)

[LaHaine]

It's come to a point where I just think TJ shouldn't do any more raffles. I hate the attitude of certain people towards raffle dragons. ~Removed~ I don't like the exclusion some people were already forming, "you are worthy. and you are not.". The winners themselves didn't do anything special to be "worthy" of a prize so judging on that basis is pretty disgusting.

 

Anyway, all of this is just to say that everytime January comes, there's always people fighting. When prizes come out, there are people wishing bad things for the owners, others fake concern to see if they can get a good trade out of naive winners and then some winners can't even handle the pressure. Honestly, I don't even know why we have raffles if it's not to stress the community and make the trading forums explode. Getting the "tickets" and the wait is fun. But after that It's not fun anymore to anyone except those who win and those who get on lists early on and/or have means to get on lists (sorry if you think otherwise, it's just my opinion). Sorry if I sound mean or greedy or whatever, but I'm quite tired of all of this. It would be easier to just gift prizes to everyone, but only one color to each person. Done. No more problems to anyone and no more dramas, but trading would still exist to get all colors. Why does it need to be a special dragon anyway? What do we do that is so special that we need a special dragon as reward?

 

Again, I apologize for the rudeness, reading that other thread put me in a very bad mood

Edited January 5, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Rally Vincent]

The only problem I see with the raffle is that people have the "2nd gen or die" attitude. It's only natural that you won't get those on a silver platter unless a friend of yourshappens to be a winner. But you can get 4th-5th gens easily a few months later, so if one is content with a clean midlle gen, there is no problem at all.

 

And how can there be a problem on the winning side? Don't want stress, pick a HM instead of a Prize. Nobody cares about those (regarding trading harassment). Pick the Prize - it comes with a price (that I assume many would be happy to pay if that means they would win).

Edited January 4, 2014 by Rally Vincent

[lilacamy931]

@Lahaine what you advise in that first paragraph about unworthy status and attitudes - that is awful

 

Unfortunately although I would love an increase as then more chances to win etc, even with a hefty number of prizes increased to the population I don't think you will ever change the attitude of certain members that didn't win and bear a grudge about. Even without the prizes those grudges would just be turned to others who caught rares in the cave.

 

I love there are competitions yearly and the excitement of the prizes and also finding out if new breed and what people went for the HM prizes. I would be disheartened to see it go personally even if I never win for the rest of existence I play on here.

 

The suggestions seen would be to prepare players who do win, and there have been enough year prize winners that there is background support needed (even talk amongst some of those that have won to provide a guide to new winners). For the winners themselves ensuring they are aware they can report harassment.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's come to a point where I just think TJ shouldn't do any more raffles. I hate the attitude of certain people towards raffle dragons. ~Removed~ I don't like the exclusion some people were already forming, "you are worthy. and you are not.". The winners themselves didn't do anything special to be "worthy" of a prize so judging on that basis is pretty disgusting.

 

Anyway, all of this is just to say that everytime January comes, there's always people fighting. When prizes come out, there are people wishing bad things for the owners, others fake concern to see if they can get a good trade out of naive winners and then some winners can't even handle the pressure. Honestly, I don't even know why we have raffles if it's not to stress the community and make the trading forums explode. Getting the "tickets" and the wait is fun. But after that It's not fun anymore to anyone except those who win and those who get on lists early on and/or have means to get on lists (sorry if you think otherwise, it's just my opinion). Sorry if I sound mean or greedy or whatever, but I'm quite tired of all of this. It would be easier to just gift prizes to everyone, but only one color to each person. Done. No more problems to anyone and no more dramas, but trading would still exist to get all colors. Why does it need to be a special dragon anyway? What do we do that is so special that we need a special dragon as reward?

 

Again, I apologize for the rudeness, reading that other thread put me in a very bad mood

I'm beginning to feel this way myself. Poor TJ

Edited January 5, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Amazon_warrior]

Unfortunately although I would love an increase as then more chances to win etc, even with a hefty number of prizes increased to the population I don't think you will ever change the attitude of certain members that didn't win and bear a grudge about. Even without the prizes those grudges would just be turned to others who caught rares in the cave.

Sadly, this. I remember, back before Prizes and raffles were a Thing, the deep upset and hurt of people who, having managed to finally grab their dream rare from the Cave or AP, came back to their scroll later find it view-bombed to death because someone else didn't catch it and decided that if *they* couldn't have it then *no one* should. Which is AWFUL. And there was alt Sweetling drama. Thankfully I missed pretty much all the Snowangel drama. These forums do have a tendency towards mass hand-wringing and hysterics, the advent of Prizes just seems to have shifted the nasty attitude to a new target.

 

The suggestions seen would be to prepare players who do win, and there have been enough year prize winners that there is background support needed (even talk amongst some of those that have won to provide a guide to new winners). For the winners themselves ensuring they are aware they can report harassment.

I'm drafting something right now to post in Site Discussion. It's slow going though, so don't look for it too soon.