ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[whitebaron]

 

Oh, I certainly do agree with you there - but speaking generally, there has been a massive emphasis shift to trade value which was never before so prevalent in DC.

I think that's mostly due to desperation of people who can't catch rares themselves.

Shimmers (and partially tinsels) have given them a means to try to collect what they always wanted - and never could get.

 

 

as for the trades: yes, I went for 3gs. only thing to get them is other 3gs for swaps or multiple cb metals.

[Nalyua]

I like this

 

3. “Consolation prize”, where every non-winning raffle entry gets the dully colored variant. In this case it is not released in the cave. One question is HM winners. Do they get this variant or not? I say yes, since otherwise they are missing out on something nice [i'd personally choose the “consolation prize” over an HM prize if the HM didn't get that dragon too]. Prize dragon winners are getting the shiny version, and so it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to get the “consolation prize”. If they want one for lineage purposes, I'm sure they can find someone to trade. x3

 

Because that way people are not dependant upon their internet speed when it comes to obtaining this Consolation.

 

But also because even if you don't win a prize everyone still has something to watch growing instead of just nothing

[Melisande]

I think that's mostly due to desperation of people who can't catch rares themselves.

Shimmers (and partially tinsels) have given them a means to try to collect what they always wanted - and never could get.

 

 

as for the trades: yes, I went for 3gs. only thing to get them is other 3gs for swaps or multiple cb metals.

But what you just said... because of the extremely, extremely low chance of getting on there is No means of getting a prize dragon you want to collect unless you are that lucky 60 out of 9,000+ people ... or to get a 2nd or 3rd gen have been able to get that highly sought after prize dragon form this or a previous year to trade an egg for one or be lucky / have good enough internet to catch a ton of cb metals and such to trade for one.

 

 

As was stated above, I don't feel DC was meant as a trading game, it's about collecting and having fun doing so. We had ... what was it 2 years (almost 3) before an official trading option (teleport) was added into the game? I remember ap trading and "snipers" and being told it's "not official nothing we can do about it"

 

So having eggs have a "value" makes them go from oh, that dragon is rare it doesn't show up as often that's cool to ok I have this egg, and It's cool. If I keep it I can breed it with x, and y and it may be worth enough to trade for egg type C... but if I trade the egg now I would be able to trade for egg type B instead which is even more rare .

 

I left DC for three years because of how competitive it was to get the harder to get eggs, trouble with new releases and slow net speed, and just the general unfriendliness of the users at that time. I've been back about 6 months. And while I have seen some thing are better the competitiveness for rares and the rudeness/nastiness of some (not all) players is worse.

[Fuzzbucket]

Is DC intended to become merely a marketplace in which only those able to afford the 'Gold standard' equipment enabling them to accumulate the quantities of the 'coin' typically demanded for low-gen Shimmers can trade within a situation of created great scarcity among a group obsessive about being able to 'collect them all'?

This is what I am beginning to feel, and it saddens me. This whole thread seems to be degenerating into

 

"Keep it this way so we winners can keep the exclusivity and have moah value to control the "market"."

 

or

 

"Change the prize system so we can all have them like soon, somehow, and greedy traders will have to suck it up yeah please."

 

It's a raffle. Raffles work - as long as the number of prizes relates to the number of entries. That is the ONLY real flaw in this, I think - that the numbers are set too low. I think 1% is industry standard, but I cannot find the site where I learned this years ago when I was running a raffle !

 

ALL the other issues mentioned are, basically, related only to perceived trade value, and some people saying they want it to stay very restricted to a teeny tiny club with THEM in it. Which is - well, I don't like that attitude, but they are entitled to have it. I have quite a few shimmers. They aren't low lineaged - (and the only lowish one I have was my first ever influence fail ) - but - they look lovely on my scroll. That's what matters.

[whitebaron]

you're actually overlooking that most people want the cb or low gen prizes mainly for the trade value too, even if they did not have the value to trade for one themselves. so basically, its about "I can't get x, so I want y so I can get x better".

 

prizes, as well as 2g thuweds, have done that to the community. just yesterday i saw: have 2g thuwed, want multiple cb golds. (which are then most of the time traded away to get another prize that can be used to gain even more value...)

 

so - who brought that on DC? its not the poor shimmers fault. not the poor tins fault. not even tjs or the thuweds fault.

 

Its plain, user-based greed. And the only one who could fix that is the users - and I don't see that happening anywhere soon. I can't tell you how often I've seen people who got on a list early and cheap, then selling 3g offspring for multiple CB metals. If there were no prizes, and no thuweds, well, they would do it with just CB Metals or other rares. Because there will always be those who "have" and those who "don't have" unless you make eggs not hunted, but freely chosen.

 

www.dragpick.com - sounds like a nice new game, huh? (or not. )

[Sheriziya]

Its plain, user-based greed.

I wonder how much of this is causing other things as well, like the request to be able have a temporary slot for bred/caught eggs when you're already egg locked so that other eggs can be AP-ed.....

 

But, back on topic, Yes, I agree it's user-based greed. After all, if someone's asking for a low-gen thuwed/prized/metal just to be able to trade it away, why would a prizewinner/metalowner give the egg away anyway?

 

With that in mind I'm definitely holding my stand on multiclutching: NO multiclutching for prize dragons. If I were to win a prize dragon I wouldn't want the offspring to be handled like trade commodoties instead of a nice gift/find.

I want to be able to determine who gets the egg, not the AP. As for the rest, my original suggestion still stands:

 

New suggestion?

Perhaps suggestion 1, 5 and 7 could be combined? Like the following:

Base: Take a percentage of entries for winners instead of an absolute amount of winners and up the percentages of both 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place and the HM

Year 1: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle

Year 2: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle

Year 3: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 retires and becomes available for HM as CB

Year 4: Same as year 3

Year 5: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 becomes available as a rare dragon in the cave. Special dragon 2 becomes available for HM as CB

Year 6: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, Special dragon 2 is still available for HM as CB

Year 7: Special dragon 4 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 2 becomes available as a rare dragon in the cave, special dragon 3 becomes available for HM as CB.

etc.

I'm still in doubt if the sprites for the cave releases should be adjusted. After all, the lineage makers might want to make a lineage based on the original sprite

 

Granted, with this scheme it would take a while before the dragon becomes available in the cave, but it would become available. It will give the prize winners time to breed and get "rich" from breeding (the user-based greed as whitebaron stated it), it will be special for them for quite some time, before the prize dragon becomes a "normal" dragon so they'll still have the "I'm a prize winner"-feeling (As someone else thought winners would otherwise not get. I know I would still have the "I WON!!!!"-feeling ) and in the end more people will be able to get the dragon both through breeding and from in-cave catching.

 

It's a raffle. Raffles work - as long as the number of prizes relates to the number of entries. That is the ONLY real flaw in this, I think - that the numbers are set too low. I think 1% is industry standard, but I cannot find the site where I learned this years ago when I was running a raffle !

I agree with this

 

they look lovely on my scroll. That's what matters.

Exactly my feeling!

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Fuzzbucket]

you're actually overlooking that most people want the cb or low gen prizes mainly for the trade value too, even if they did not have the value to trade for one themselves. so basically, its about "I can't get x, so I want y so I can get x better".

 

prizes, as well as 2g thuweds, have done that to the community. just yesterday i saw: have 2g thuwed, want multiple cb golds. (which are then most of the time traded away to get another prize that can be used to gain even more value...)

 

so - who brought that on DC? its not the poor shimmers fault. not the poor tins fault. not even tjs or the thuweds fault.

 

Its plain, user-based greed. And the only one who could fix that is the users - and I don't see that happening anywhere soon. I can't tell you how often I've seen people who got on a list early and cheap, then selling 3g offspring for multiple CB metals. If there were no prizes, and no thuweds, well, they would do it with just CB Metals or other rares. Because there will always be those who "have" and those who "don't have" unless you make eggs not hunted, but freely chosen.

 

www.dragpick.com - sounds like a nice new game, huh? (or not. )

YES (I am VERY depressed about the stock market aspect building up here... Even though I have been on the receiving end of some great generosity - the prevailing mood seems to be more and more towards I got this, and you can ONLY get it by paying more than anyone can ever hope to have.)

[LaHaine]

make no mistake - I own the 3gs and some of the 2gs.

 

Still, the 4gs are not much of a trade bait. I just gave them as an example that not all people go for trade value first and foremost.

Some shimmers have no value at all it seems because of different reasons, not just because they are 4th gen+. For example, some lines are so "famous" (were gifted heavily or the user decided to just use one or two partners) that they lost value and even a 3rd gen is worth nothing, not even a shimmerswap. That's kinda messed up, can you imagine? "lulz dis shimmer line was never given out before!! ultra rare!!", low gen shimmers are rare but let's make it even more rare so we can milk this money cow even harder.

 

Another thing I noticed is that stairs and spirals, because they are easier to continue, receive more offers than, for example, the beautiful lines you are making there x.x

 

 

But there's nothing really we can do to stop it. We have no "money", so we have to trade multiple cows for a better cow. It became like this and I don't think it's gonna change, since most people kinda feel forced and tempted to do the same with more precious dragons. When I got my cb silver years ago I was really happy about it. If I ever catch another one, I will probably save it to trade for something else hopefully a shimmer. So yeah my views of the game changed drastically and I want to join in on the cow trade party

 

 

 

 

That said I still support multiclutches. The arguments of "I want to control where my babies go" doesn't convince me and it sounds to me it's more like "I want my lines to be rare and I want to have control over the offers I get for it, don't wanna anyone get it for free or compete with me in the trade forum".

 

And I also still support the percentage change, like most everyone here. It's okay if it's a raffle and I understand the chances have to be low. But that low in a dragon collection browser game? Why?

 

And I now support making past prize dragons HM prizes as well. Not so sure about making them in-cave rares though

[Nalyua]

Some shimmers have no value at all it seems because of different reasons, not just because they are 4th gen+. For example, some lines are so "famous" (were gifted heavily or the user decided to just use one or two partners) that they lost value and even a 3rd gen is worth nothing, not even a shimmerswap. That's kinda messed up, can you imagine? "lulz dis shimmer line was never given out before!! ultra rare!!", low gen shimmers are rare but let's make it even more rare so we can milk this money cow even harder.

 

Another thing I noticed is that stairs and spirals, because they are easier to continue, receive more offers than, for example, the beautiful lines you are making there x.x

 

 

But there's nothing really we can do to stop it. We have no "money", so we have to trade multiple cows for a better cow. It became like this and I don't think it's gonna change, since most people kinda feel forced and tempted to do the same with more precious dragons. When I got my cb silver years ago I was really happy about it. If I ever catch another one, I will probably save it to trade for something else hopefully a shimmer. So yeah my views of the game changed drastically and I want to join in on the cow trade party

 

 

 

 

That said I still support multiclutches. The arguments of "I want to control where my babies go" doesn't convince me and it sounds to me it's more like "I want my lines to be rare and I want to have control over the offers I get for it, don't wanna anyone get it for free or compete with me in the trade forum".

 

And I also still support the percentage change, like most everyone here. It's okay if it's a raffle and I understand the chances have to be low. But that low in a dragon collection browser game? Why?

 

And I now support making past prize dragons HM prizes as well. Not so sure about making them in-cave rares though

The only way to stop this is by people stopping to request silly things.

 

I mean there will always be someone who wants X NOW and has enough at hands to make tempting offers. The only way to stop this from happening is the owners not seeing this as regular prices but more as someone who wants something very fast.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

That said I still support multiclutches. The arguments of "I want to control where my babies go" doesn't convince me and it sounds to me it's more like "I want my lines to be rare and I want to have control over the offers I get for it, don't wanna anyone get it for free or compete with me in the trade forum".

This is exactly it. I didn't support multiclutches but all of a sudden.... (ties in with how people were complaining that they bred their hollies when the limits came off and they thought they could keep ALL the eggs, no FAIR...)

[Sheriziya]

That said I still support multiclutches. The arguments of "I want to control where my babies go" doesn't convince me and it sounds to me it's more like "I want my lines to be rare and I want to have control over the offers I get for it, don't wanna anyone get it for free or compete with me in the trade forum".

It's not that I'd want them to be rare. I just don't want them to be traded away. As I understand the prize dragons aren't easy to breed, so when I'd breed one I'd surely like it to stay on the scroll of the person I gift it to. Be that friends, glomp gifting, gifting for wishlists (or trades for that matter).

I'd hate it if a prize dragon becomes a simple trading commodity to get other dragons.

 

Hmmmm..... Then again, I don't mind my holiday eggs ending up in the AP (and some even going to the wild after they've grown up on someone's scroll). Heck, that's one of the reasons I bred my holidays while I was already locked (before last year Christmas) with the max amount of holiday dragons. And I guess some of them might have been used as trade dragons as well.

 

There's one (big) point with the multiclutching I do still fear like I said earlier, though:

This year with the ability to keep more of the older holidays I've seen people actually hoarding the older holidays. And I DO mean hoarding. I saw people with the max amount of possible eggs of ONE breed. And many of them did NOT hoard them to gift others who didn't have an older holiday, or so I understood from their forum post. They were proud to have this many and they wanted even more.

 

I can see this happening with multiclutches from prize dragons as well. So... instead of more people getting the eggs, the eggs will be clustered with those who are fast enough clickers to hoard them from the AP..... That's my biggest fear with multi-clutching.

 

That is why I originally stated I wasn't in favor of the multi clutching. I don't think it will solve the problem.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sheriziya

[cyradis4]

Because of the ratios, multi-clutching won't actually help. What'll happen is, the Prize dragons will become even rarer even faster. For the rest... Yes, the number of prize need to be a percentage of the number of tickets given out.

 

I actually really do like the idea Sheriziya put out, with the dragons as first part of the HM and then as part of the rares in the Cave. We're talking about 5 years here, using her plant Tinsels wouldn't even become available until next year. I personally am extremely concerned with CB Tinsels going extinct. As time goes on, more and more people come and go, like with any game. Which means that in time, all CB Tinsels could well be gone. Unless some other way to get them is added to the game. Even if they are just added as an HM prize.

 

As for people complaining about others being "greedy", I'm the one WB was referring to, with the Thuwed. Why did I trade it? Because I've been on the cave for many years and have very little ability to catch CB Golds or Coppers. I had to use trades to get almost all of mine. So if someone was willing to offer to pay huge amounts for the Thuwed, I was willing to part with it. Because as much as I liked it, I needed the Golds a lot more. (I've kept 2 other 2nd gen Thuweds I got without even trying to trade them).

 

So I take offense when people say that people like me, who have low gen Prizes or Thuweds, and are asking for a high price for it, are "greedy". Did it not occur to you that maybe we couldn't get what we were asking for any other way? And have you ever studied basic economics?

 

The simple truth is: If people were NOT willing to pay multiple CB Golds, then the Thuwed would not have traded. Guess what? Several people were. That's trade value, NOT greed. Its like saying that a dealership that asks $100k for a top end sports car is greedy. No, they are not greedy. Supply is limited, and the demand high, and THAT means that the PRICE is going to be high. Thuweds and 2nd gen prizes are extremely limited, and the demand is high. So the price will be high.

 

The only way to correct that is to add more supply, because demand isn't going to change. So! That's why I support the two years as regular, then 2 years as HM, then the 5th year it goes into the Cave as a rare.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Tawanda001]

I can see this happening with multiclutches from prize dragons as well. So... instead of more people getting the eggs, the eggs will be clustered with those who are fast enough clickers to hoard them from the AP..... That's my biggest fear with multi-clutching.

 

That is why I originally stated I wasn't in favor of the multi clutching. I don't think it will solve the problem.

Those people will hoard anyway. They are fast enough to snatch from the AP and 'rich' enough to buy whatever they want from whoever has one for trade.

Multiclutches won't eliminate that completely. What it would do is give others a small chance at getting one, a chance that otherwise they won't have at all.

Hopefully the 'hoarders' will get their fill early on and not feel the need to stalk the AP for even more, especially if they can get them more easily in the usual way.

 

[EscapistLore]

It's not that I'd want them to be rare. I just don't want them to be traded away. As I understand the prize dragons aren't easy to breed, so when I'd breed one I'd surely like it to stay on the scroll of the person I gift it to. Be that friends, glomp gifting, gifting for wishlists (or trades for that matter).

I'd hate it if a prize dragon becomes a simple trading commodity to get other dragons.

 

Hmmmm..... Then again, I don't mind my holiday eggs ending up in the AP (and some even going to the wild after they've grown up on someone's scroll). Heck, that's one of the reasons I bred my holidays while I was already locked (before last year Christmas) with the max amount of holiday dragons. And I guess some of them might have been used as trade dragons as well.

 

There's one (big) point with the multiclutching I do still fear like I said earlier, though:

This year with the ability to keep more of the older holidays I've seen people actually hoarding the older holidays. And I DO mean hoarding. I saw people with the max amount of possible eggs of ONE breed. And many of them did NOT hoard them to gift others who didn't have an older holiday, or so I understood from their forum post. They were proud to have this many and they wanted even more.

 

I can see this happening with multiclutches from prize dragons as well. So... instead of more people getting the eggs, the eggs will be clustered with those who are fast enough clickers to hoard them from the AP..... That's my biggest fear with multi-clutching.

 

That is why I originally stated I wasn't in favor of the multi clutching. I don't think it will solve the problem.

I agree. Truly, yes. I want the power of deciding where my eggs go, if I ever won. I want to say, ok, I've seen her and him and her gifting a ton, or, oh, she's gifted to newbies and helped them get on their feet.

 

I wouldnt want my babies found, then traded by someone who wouldnt appreciate the gift. I highly doubt if I won my lines would be rare, I'd want to share. (I'd keep two or so personal lineages but again, that's my choice)

 

Now, if I choose to AP an egg for some lucky person, I could. And if I won, I might. But it should be my choice.

 

I really think we need higher numbers of prizes. Badly. High demand and low availability leads to insane 'prices'. For a game thats meant to be about collecting, the prize dragons low numbers have turned this into a trading game. I say lower the price of prizes by adding more. Those who have CB prizes, I'm sorry, but the exclusivity isnt truely fair.

[Fuzzbucket]

Because of the ratios, multi-clutching won't actually help. What'll happen is, the Prize dragons will become even rarer even faster. For the rest... Yes, the number of prize need to be a percentage of the number of tickets given out.

 

I actually really do like the idea Sheriziya put out, with the dragons as first part of the HM and then as part of the rares in the Cave. We're talking about 5 years here, using her plant Tinsels wouldn't even become available until next year. I personally am extremely concerned with CB Tinsels going extinct. As time goes on, more and more people come and go, like with any game. Which means that in time, all CB Tinsels could well be gone. Unless some other way to get them is added to the game. Even if they are just added as an HM prize.

 

As for people complaining about others being "greedy", I'm the one WB was referring to, with the Thuwed. Why did I trade it? Because I've been on the cave for many years and have very little ability to catch CB Golds or Coppers. I had to use trades to get almost all of mine. So if someone was willing to offer to pay huge amounts for the Thuwed, I was willing to part with it. Because as much as I liked it, I needed the Golds a lot more. (I've kept 2 other 2nd gen Thuweds I got without even trying to trade them).

 

So I take offense when people say that people like me, who have low gen Prizes or Thuweds, and are asking for a high price for it, are "greedy". Did it not occur to you that maybe we couldn't get what we were asking for any other way? And have you ever studied basic economics?

 

The simple truth is: If people were NOT willing to pay multiple CB Golds, then the Thuwed would not have traded. Guess what? Several people were. That's trade value, NOT greed. Its like saying that a dealership that asks $100k for a top end sports car is greedy. No, they are not greedy. Supply is limited, and the demand high, and THAT means that the PRICE is going to be high. Thuweds and 2nd gen prizes are extremely limited, and the demand is high. So the price will be high.

 

The only way to correct that is to add more supply, because demand isn't going to change. So! That's why I support the two years as regular, then 2 years as HM, then the 5th year it goes into the Cave as a rare.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I wasn't referring to you in any of my posts. Nor to any one miraculous trade. (I have traded very strange things for things I was desperate to get... I seem to recall a PB 3rd gen silver for low time CB whites at one point... we do what we can when we have a need ! )

 

The "greed" I refer to is the people here who want things planned out so that they can carry on demanding high prices.

 

Your car thing. There is a flash car. Price it where you like and if someone will pay - fine. What I would object to would be your (or the new owner's) then demanding that the manufacturer only ever make one per year so the value of yours would not depreciate by becoming more common.

Edited January 3, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Amazon_warrior]

Edit: hi, Amazon_warrior.

 

I think a lot of people breed enough to understand this, that being why I think Prize dragons should breed like commons, lol, or at any rate well, because they certainly don't!

 

But I've seen the massive changes in DC since the first appearance of the Prize dragons and I do feel that the only way to alleviate these effects is to increase - by whatever means - the CBs/lower-gens available.

 

No modern societal/economic structure can weather well for very long a situation where by design 'wealth' concentrates at the top - and this is something we play for fun, lol.

 

I'd like to keep the more depressing aspects of RL out of DC, drat it!

You'd think that, but the number of times I've seen "Prizes should multi-clutch!" with the implicit assumption that they multi-clutch only or mostly shinies is.... too many to count.

 

I dunno about breeding like commons, but I'd settle for uncommon breeding rates. The irony is (as noted by others) that as soon as something is common enough that a reasonable percentage of the population can get hold of it, the "trade" value falls and mighty whinging ensues because suddenly those former rares don't net the same worth as they did previously. I recall it happening with CB metals at the start of 2013 when there was that odd rush of them. It is a shame, but many people don't seem to value a sprite for much other than the potential value of its offspring. That's kind of a running theme in this thread, actually - it's not about "how do I get a version of this sprite?", it's about "how do I get a low-gen version of this sprite?" with the unspoken tag of "so that I can trade its offspring for awesome stuffs". And of course ALL CB Prize owners are terrible evil people who only ever ask for the moon on a stick in return for 2nd gens. It's disheartening, it really is.

[Fuzzbucket]

You'd think that, but the number of times I've seen "Prizes should multi-clutch!" with the implicit assumption that they multi-clutch only or mostly shinies is.... too many to count.

 

I dunno about breeding like commons, but I'd settle for uncommon breeding rates. The irony is (as noted by others) that as soon as something is common enough that a reasonable percentage of the population can get hold of it, the "trade" value falls and mighty whinging ensues because suddenly those former rares don't net the same worth as they did previously. I recall it happening with CB metals at the start of 2013 when there was that odd rush of them. It is a shame, but many people don't seem to value a sprite for much other than the potential value of its offspring. That's kind of a running theme in this thread, actually - it's not about "how do I get a version of this sprite?", it's about "how do I get a low-gen version of this sprite?" with the unspoken tag of "so that I can trade its offspring for awesome stuffs". And of course ALL CB Prize owners are terrible evil people who only ever ask for the moon on a stick in return for 2nd gens. It's disheartening, it really is.

I am almost beginning to hate trading, except that I do it - but not (usually) for anything remotely rare !

 

((((AW))))

[Tawanda001]

You'd think that, but the number of times I've seen "Prizes should multi-clutch!" with the implicit assumption that they multi-clutch only or mostly shinies is.... too many to count.

I think some us would like low-ish gens for lineage purposes. Right now that is a pipe dream for all but a handful of people.

As far as multiclucthes not popping out the shiny version, well, have you seen what 2g prizefails have been going for lately? I would not mind at all if more of those popped up in the AP either.

I started collecting prizefails knowing I'd never have a shot at low gen prizes and now even those are often out of my reach too, (excepting very generous players who ask little in return) so I don't think there would be too awful many complaints if some or even most of the 2gs going to the AP were commons instead of prizes.

Even if were something like one shiny going to the AP out of every dozen eggs, that's still more of a chance for the average player to get one than there is now.

 

I think for a lot of us it's the perception that maybe, just maybe, with multiclutches if we spend enough time in the AP, there is some small hope of getting something we never could have a shot at otherwise. Kinda the same reasoning we use for participating in the raffle in the first place.

 

(oh, and anybody with a 'worthless' 3/4g they can't trade, feel free to toss it my way please, lol)

Edited January 3, 2014 by Tawanda001

[Satomi]

I think there indeed is a lot of greed when it comes to anything rare, let alone a prize dragon here. I won't really jump in on that part of the discussion more than that with all the differing views.

I have been playing dc for many years, and still struggle to get cb's of the rares unless it's given to me or traded...but I don't think I have ever successfully traded for a rare on this forum because of how high the price.

 

Yeah, I'd love to see an increase in eggs, and I'd love a chance to feel like I can get one without having to get so much trade fodder to do it. I do understand the need for control and limitations though.

 

I think the only thing that would cause me to hesitate in being less discerning and not caring on where my eggs went would be for all those people who "help" their family members. I have kids with a scroll, and the only help they get from me is if I breed for them or catch it myself and they want/need it. I don't trade for them.

 

Ultimately TJ will do what he thinks is best, and there will be nay sayers no matter what direction he goes. There are some excellent suggestions in the first post, and I support whatever decision is made.

[Amazon_warrior]

I think some us would like low-ish gens for lineage purposes. Right now that is a pipe dream for all but a handful of people.

As far as multiclucthes not popping out the shiny version, well, have you seen what 2g prizefails have been going for lately? I would not mind at all if more of those popped up in the AP either.

I started collecting prizefails knowing I'd never have a shot at low gen prizes and now even those are often out of my reach too, (excepting very generous players who ask little in return) so I don't think there would be too awful many complaints if some or even most of the 2gs going to the AP were commons instead of prizes.

Even if were something like one shiny going to the AP out of every dozen eggs, that's still more of a chance for the average player to get one than there is now.

 

I think for a lot of us it's the perception that maybe, just maybe, with multiclutches if we spend enough time in the AP, there is some small hope of getting something we never could have a shot at otherwise. Kinda the same reasoning we use for participating in the raffle in the first place.

 

(oh, and anybody with a 'worthless' 3/4g they can't trade, feel free to toss it my way please, lol)

I have a strong history of gifting my 2nd gen Prize fails. I also had grand plans of AP'ing more 2nd gen Shimmers from personal breedings, except that every. Single. Personal. Breeding. Failed. So, good intentions completely undermined by a RNG. :/ (It's also why I still only have one 2nd gen from LC on my scroll - all the others belong to other people.) But the amount of "Waaaaa!" I see around and about really sets my teeth on edge. CB Prize owners do not have an obligation to breed their dragon for others if they don't want to (an opinion I held even before I ended up with LC), but many of them do in whatever way they've decided is most suitable and still it's not deemed enough.

 

As a lineage builder myself, I'm honestly not unsympathetic to the lineage argument. In fact, that's why I'd like to see more CB Prizes given out or showing up as HMs in the future - I like making lineages too, but even if you *own* a CB Prize it can be damned hard to trade for what you need to make a lineage worthy of the name, not just YABSS (Yet Another Boring Stair Step).

[Syphoneira]

you're actually overlooking that most people want the cb or low gen prizes mainly for the trade value too, even if they did not have the value to trade for one themselves. so basically, its about "I can't get x, so I want y so I can get x better".

 

prizes, as well as 2g thuweds, have done that to the community. just yesterday i saw: have 2g thuwed, want multiple cb golds. (which are then most of the time traded away to get another prize that can be used to gain even more value...)

 

so - who brought that on DC? its not the poor shimmers fault. not the poor tins fault. not even tjs or the thuweds fault.

 

Its plain, user-based greed. And the only one who could fix that is the users - and I don't see that happening anywhere soon. I can't tell you how often I've seen people who got on a list early and cheap, then selling 3g offspring for multiple CB metals. If there were no prizes, and no thuweds, well, they would do it with just CB Metals or other rares. Because there will always be those who "have" and those who "don't have" unless you make eggs not hunted, but freely chosen.

 

www.dragpick.com - sounds like a nice new game, huh? (or not. )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, whitebaron.

 

while this is true of some, it's not true of others.

 

There are a number of people with CB/2nd gen Prizes in DC who gift many of their low-gen offspring and who ask reasonable 'prices' simply in order to obtain dragons they otherwise could not get.

 

Others will get whatever the market will bear, as is their right, to get while the getting's good.

 

But the general prices would never have either gone or remained so high had there not been such extreme scarcity, as can be seen in the reduction of the 'price' for the more readily available lines mentioned in this thread, nonetheless out of the reach of many simply because of the low numbers available affecting the market, not only regarding the Prizes but for the dragons most frequently required - in often great quantity - to gain them in trade.

 

The scarcity encourages and normalizes greed which would normally be tempered over time by a reduction in the price people with the capacity to do so were willing to pay as the newness wore off and more low-gens became available, had there been sufficient Prizes given out to achieve the necessary percentage where people could ultimately hope to gain a number themselves.

 

The market for low-gen Shimmers has been effectively closed into a small circle excluding most players, and because this is a collecting game played by fanatics in which trade plays a certain role for probably most, at various times, and therefore influences people's ability to gain dragons they can't catch themselves, the only universally acceptable gifts or trades have become attuned to this, so that shuts out those unable to produce low-gen Shimmers or catch the Golds, etc., which are the only 'coin' universally considered 'worthy' to purchase them and are therefore still valued by all, even by those no longer interested in collecting more themselves.

 

A scarcity situation in anything important to the general population sets up a cycle centered around the object of scarcity, and the more dependence on obtaining this object is fostered by the thereby increasing scarcity/expense adversely affecting the opportunities of those without the means of obtaining it, the less healthy the economy, and the society involved, become.

 

DC is being altered from a dragon collecting/breeding/gifting/trading community into a market-based economy, and this makes a lot of people sad, because this wasn't why we joined.

 

DC attracts people who were typically drawn in by the 'save cute baby dragons from dying' thing and stayed because they liked to collect dragons and were obsessive enough to stay through all sorts of annoying issues, including virtual cessation of game play for extended periods, because they didn't want to miss out on any dragons, and often became involved in the community/with a group of long-term friends/lineage breeding, etc.

 

Many people want the CBs/2nd gens for more than one reason - yes, they can swap/trade for dragons they want and can't otherwise get, but they can also gift and breed lineages with them.

 

Many of us have found that the lineages we've accumulated over the years, which we may still think pretty, no longer make valued gifts - and gifting some of the 'people who have everything' becomes extremely difficult, because anything we can come up with is likely to not be anything useful to or desired by them.

 

Even new people often no longer want gifted longer-lineaged dragons of desired types, of 6 gens or so, because they know that the top traders consider them worthless... this even applies to Hollies, because the Shimmer criteria is, understandably enough, being applied to all dragons by those who have recently joined.

 

This is not because the of the fact that longer-lineaged steps are useless for year-round breeding, but because of perceived trade value.

 

The game has become centered about the rarest dragons and the prices for which they go, far beyond the reach of many.

 

Because of the extreme rarity of the new Prize dragons, people who wanted to be assured of getting 2nd/3rd gens offered as much as they could, and those fast enough to catch many of the limited numbers of rare dragons effectively did indeed set the price at the promises going as high as dozens of CB Golds and apparently up to 50 Blusang, in one instance of which I've heard.

 

Without this extreme Prize rarity, the prices would have dropped and, while remaining high for the average person, would likely have wound up balancing out at a couple of CB Golds or other currently rare/valued dragons, since the value and the 'environmental rarity' of Golds (and Blusang, and quite possibly Coppers as well, but I'll lump these, and 2nd gen Thuweds in together under 'Golds' for purposes of brevity here) was hiked by the armies taken by the fastest to obtain the low-gen Prizes and would not otherwise have been pushed into a range where, typically, only multiple CB Golds could obtain low-gen Prizes and only low-gen Prizes could be traded for Golds, limiting trading opportunities to a very small number of players and of dragons.

 

So the value of Golds was both pushed up further out of catching ability/trading range of many players and devalued in trading for Prizes.

 

None of this would have occurred to any such extreme and long-running extent had there been higher numbers of Prizes issued, relative to the percentage of entries.

 

I've seen comparisons made to government-run lotteries intended to raise money at high levels for whatever purpose, where chances are 1 in however many million of winning anything useful.

 

But this is not a lottery and the general conditions of lotteries do not apply to raffles, where chances of winning are more commonly in the area of one in 30, 50 or possibly one in a hundred, depending on the size of the raffle itself and the number of prizes donated.

 

 

Melisande made a calculation, based on 4000 entries, roughly half the number actually entered, to arrive at '... a .025% chance to get a prize, with less of those being actual prize dragons because of the HMs. ...'

 

Having roughly a - .012% chance of winning something in a raffle is unheard of...

 

 

[Nakuru]

It's not that I'd want them to be rare. I just don't want them to be traded away. As I understand the prize dragons aren't easy to breed, so when I'd breed one I'd surely like it to stay on the scroll of the person I gift it to. Be that friends, glomp gifting, gifting for wishlists (or trades for that matter).

I'd hate it if a prize dragon becomes a simple trading commodity to get other dragons.

 

(...)

 

I can see this happening with multiclutches from prize dragons as well. So... instead of more people getting the eggs, the eggs will be clustered with those who are fast enough clickers to hoard them from the AP..... That's my biggest fear with multi-clutching.

The thing is, that already happens.

 

There are people who already collects short lineages Prizes and people only breed those rare Dragons and/or catch rare Dragons just to trade them for other Dragons. And no everyone who gets a Dragon gifted keeps it (and that's why I stopped breeding any rare/uncommon Dragons I have for requests, TBH).

 

On the other hand, there is not a way to know beforehand the lineage of an egg in the AP, so if more that one Prize's egg appears at the same time, no everyone will click the same one and that'll give a chance (small, but still better that the inexistent chance right now) to someone who doesn't have a way to trade for such Dragon to get it.

 

 

The irony is (as noted by others) that as soon as something is common enough that a reasonable percentage of the population can get hold of it, the "trade" value falls and mighty whinging ensues because suddenly those former rares don't net the same worth as they did previously.

 

For more irony, as soon as something is considered "too common", people stop breeding it since they won't get anything rare enough for it.

And the people who are still searching for a Prize lineage that is now "too common"? They have even less of a chance to get it even if they ask for long lineages, because really, no one wants to breed it because that would make it even more common.

 

 

So (and yes, both of this ties here) we are in a problem without a real solution, because:

If something is too common, many won't care about it because it isn't valuable enough.

If something is rare, it'll be used for many as trade folder first and foremost.

[Sheriziya]

Here's our chance to change the mind setting about the "value" of prize dragons and the way they are being "handled". Anyone wanna chip in?

 

@Nakuru: I guess you've got a point. Doesn't mean we have to like it, though

I can only hope either one of the suggestion (or a combination of them) will help with our current predicament.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Amazon_warrior]

For more irony, as soon as something is considered "too common", people stop breeding it since they won't get anything rare enough for it.

And the people who are still searching for a Prize lineage that is now "too common"? They have even less of a chance to get it even if they ask for long lineages, because really, no one wants to breed it because that would make it even more common.

That's also a problem, yes.

[Melisande]

DC is being altered from a dragon collecting/breeding/gifting/trading community into a market-based economy, and this makes a lot of people sad, because this wasn't why we joined.

 

DC attracts people who were typically drawn in by the 'save cute baby dragons from dying' thing and stayed because they liked to collect dragons and were obsessive enough to stay through all sorts of annoying issues, including virtual cessation of game play for extended periods, because they didn't want to miss out on any dragons, and often became involved in the community/with a group of long-term friends/lineage breeding, etc.

Thank you, Some one else has the same feeling!

 

I love DC because the sprites are so beautiful! I collect dragons as adults and frozen babies because I love have they look, and would like (eventually) to have one of every thing. For me, no, it dose not need to be a low gen. Low gen is nice but in the long run I love all my dragons no matter what their parents were.

 

With such a low chance of getting a prize the chances of being able to get one of their children becomes even harder. Every single rare/meta/prize I have I got either as a gift from a friend or in threads like the take an egg leave an egg or the community notice board. I won my coppers in a game in one forum group I'm part of (that was fun).

 

The whole greedy vs people deserve a special prize thing gets old fast to people who are here to collect and have fun. I don't know... the line between when people yell at some one for being greedy and the every one is entitled to play the game their own way is very gray. I know I have had people say that I am a "bad person" because I freeze dragons, but that is how I like to play.

 

It all comes down to what TJ thinks is fair. He dose not have to have a raffle... and if people keep fighting and arguing and harassing each other I can seem him not holding one again in the future. The name calling and the ill feelings between people is not what DC is about, and it just makes me really sad to see things break down like that.