ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[DarkEternity]

Multiclutches won't clutch like holidays, just a warning.

 

Though if there are more trials (more eggs being produced) unless the probability of each egg in the multiclutch is dependent upon the number, there should be a higher ratio of low gen prizes to higher gen prizes than if that were not the case (since low gens will now make up a greater proportion of the breeding population of prizes than previously).

 

Even if there is not more than one prize dragon produced per clutch, the owner should have a greater chance of being able to pick a prize.

 

I think that people are forgetting one of TJ's fertility suggestions:

When fertility came out, people were generally disappointed with it. It seems that this is because, although my tests showed that it did indeed boost the chances of dragons breeding, people were expecting a significantly higher (or near perfect) success rate.

 

So how about, instead of altering a dragon's success rate, dragons "buffed" with fertility have the possibility of producing a multi-clutch? No change to fertility's cooldown or anything, just a swap in what it does.

 

Just an idea.

 

Now, I don't think TJ would suggest multiclutching as a Fertility Rework if it decreased your chances of success rather than increasing them.

Edited January 9, 2014 by DarkEternity

[whitebaron]

Multiclutches won't clutch like holidays, just a warning.

 

Though if there are more trials (more eggs being produced) unless the probability of each egg in the multiclutch is dependent upon the number, there should be a higher ratio of low gen prizes to higher gen prizes than if that were not the case (since low gens will now make up a greater proportion of the breeding population of prizes than previously).

 

Even if there is not more than one prize dragon produced per clutch, the owner should have a greater chance of being able to pick a prize.

 

I think that people are forgetting one of TJ's fertility suggestions:

 

 

Now, I don't think TJ would suggest multiclutching as a Fertility Rework if it decreased your chances of success rather than increasing them.

I would like that a lot better, as it would give me the option to not use it on dragons I don't want to end up in AP. I give away or AP loads of shimmers, but some I absolutely do not want to end up somewhere else - at all.

[arlais]

Was the raffle done for this year yet?

[LaHaine]

Was the raffle done for this year yet?

The entry for the raffle is done, but TJ didn't draw the winners yet. And this is a thread for suggestions, not really questions. For questions like this you have the Help forum or the raffle thread in site discussion

[Fuzzbucket]

No. When it is drawn, TJ will post in News.

Edited January 11, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Sheriziya]

Winners have been drawn and are being emailed. You can also check here to see if you've won.

 

And in addition: We've got more winners! 150 now With two different style prize dragons: WEstern & eastern. Currenlty unknown if it's Tinsels and Shimmers or other prize dragons all together. I can imagine Tinsels to be the Western style dragons and Shimmers the Eastern Style Dragons. Especially since TJ didn't announce new prize dragons.

 

But then again, he just might surprise us

 

ETA: Okay, TJ announced that indeed the Tinsels are the Western Dragons and the Shimmers the Eastern Dragons. From the original news thread:

Here's how the winners were structured this year:

 

150 winners were drawn and placed into pools for western- and eastern-style prize dragons (the same dragons as previous years, not new breeds). 30 of the winners received an honorable mention, and have the possibility of being upgraded to a prize dragon if a higher-placed winner does not choose a prize dragon:

10 First Place Eastern Prize Dragon Winners

20 Second Place Eastern Prize Dragon Winners

30 Third Place Eastern Prize Dragon Winners

10 First Place Western Prize Dragon Winners

20 Second Place Western Prize Dragon Winners

30 Third Place Western Prize Dragon Winners

30 Honorable Mentions

All 150 have the ability to select roughly any egg from the cave (subject to the same limitations as before: No Valentine/Halloween dragons, no retired breeds except frills, no Legendary Dragons).

 

So basically a few "wishes" have come true:

• Up the amount of winners
• More CB Shimmers & More CB Tinsels (they are now both being giving out)

We don't know yet anything about:

• Multiclutching per Olympe's suggestion
• Higher breeding success rate
• Prevention from Hatchies growing up through the AP

I guess the question that's now at hand is what we think of these changes in comparison to our suggestions?

Here are my thoughts.

Amount of winners I guess it's still a fixed amount instead of a percentage, or the percentage is (still?) very low. If I go on the assumption of 10.000 scroll owners entered in the raffle, the percentage would be 1.5%. But I can imagine there were a lot more scroll owners who played in the raffles. Perhaps a state of the cave with active scroll owners would shed some light on our guesses and some information from TJ on an estimate (is it roughly 10.000 or rougly 50.000 scrollowners) of how many people participated in this years raffle. Right now everyone's guess is as good as anyone elses. I guess we'll have to see how it works out.

More CB Shimmers & Tinsels

Well, we wanted more CB shimmers and tinsels to come into play and we did get what we want. The amounts we got now are the same amounts as last years shimmers. And allthough that particular amount wasn't raised, TJ has added new Tinsels again. So this all makes the chances higher of people breeding 2nd and higher gens. I like it so far.

 

I guess we'll have to see about the points we know nothing about yet.

 

What do you guys think, now that TJ has announced the new raffle results?

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Fuzzbucket]

We do not know how many ENTRIES there were. Not every player played the fort game. I know several who just couldn't be bothered !

[Nakuru]

I'm really glad to see more winners this year, even if I didn't have any luck~

 

I'm joining to wait to see if anything else changes and how the market changes with these new Prizes before opining more about the present suggestions or any new one~

[WraithZephyr]

And in addition: We've got more winners! 150 now With two different style prize dragons: WEstern & eastern. Currenlty unknown if it's Tinsels and Shimmers or other prize dragons all together. I can imagine Tinsels to be the Western style dragons and Shimmers the Eastern Style Dragons. Especially since TJ didn't announce new prize dragons.

it is tinsels and shimmers. TJ clearly said no new breeds - same breeds as previous years. Shimmers have the eastern design; tinsels the western.

[Sheriziya]

it is tinsels and shimmers. TJ clearly said no new breeds - same breeds as previous years. Shimmers have the eastern design; tinsels the western.

, hence my ETA in the same post:

ETA: Okay, TJ announced that indeed the Tinsels are the Western Dragons and the Shimmers the Eastern Dragons.

 

We do not know how many ENTRIES there were. Not every player played the fort game. I know several who just couldn't be bothered !

Yeah, that's exactly my problem. Right now I made the assumption 10.000 scroll owners actually entered the raffle. BUT.... I have no idea how many actual scroll owners there are. Are there even 10.000 or perhaps even more, like 100.000? I have no idea. I think we can't really base it on the forum accounts, like others said, there are spam accounts as well as people who have long since left. And then there are scrollowners who don't have a forum account. I haven't got a clue as to how many that would be.

And then indeed, how many scroll owners weren't even interested in playing the game (and thus not entering the raffle). There are so many unknowns. Only TJ can shed a light on that particular issue.....

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sheriziya

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Very glad to see fresh Tinsel blood

 

Wish the number of winners had been even higher, though.

[olympe]

I think that the current raffle is an improvement over the older ones. Not only is the number of prizes given out higher, we'll also see new tinsel blood, which is a good thing.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

In regards to better breeding success; I almost wonder if it could be coded so that any time a Shimmer / Tinsel breeding will be successful (or maybe just for the CBs), there's at least a 50% shot at a shiny? Would leave plenty of fails as well, while also letting more eggs get into circulation. As I and likely many others know, it seems there's no way right now to get on a list, no matter how many rares you offer... but maybe, just maybe, that's more a result of lists already being closed then that the offers aren't tempting. I got a very nice Shimmer around the end of winter last year, made what I felt was a modest list of around 15 people, and still have yet to see the end of it because they breed so poorly. X___x

[auroshen]

This raffle is definitely an improvement, but it's still more of a lottery than anything, with such a low percentage of winners.

[WraithZephyr]

hmm.. we had 2 years for tinsels, we are now at 2 years for shimmers. If this is going to be an established pattern... I see the possibility of the numbers increasing yet again...

 

10/20/30 for tinsels

10/20/30 for shimmers

10/20/30 for new breed

and 30 HM

[EscapistLore]

Here is my opinion. First off. Things like this have made me leave games before. By this, I mean something impossible to get. It bothers me that in a game where, for me, creating lineages is the -best- part, I can't create a lineage I want.

 

The numbers. OK. They doubled. Now, I've heard estimates from 50k users to 70k that entered the raffle. 150 out of that is literally not even a drop in the bucket. We need a much higher number. In a game where the majority of us are hoarders (myself among them), the low numbers just... aren't enough. It's not good for the community, it breeds resentment. Everyone wants a 2G, and while yes, I'm sure some have been gifted, for the majority of us 2Gs are completely beyond our reach.

 

I know some people want the trade value to stay up there in the outer edges of the universe. I think it needs to come down. It is never good to have something so insanely priced, it really isn't.

 

I don't understand why TJ left the numbers so low. (If you'd explain, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know your reasoning.) I can kind of understand 'exclusive' dragons, etc. To me, exclusives are CB Solstices now. But we all could get one if we had room and were there. With the prizes... It just reminds me of other games where you see people with this leet stuff that you'll never have. (Even if everyone who wins this year gifted every single shimmer/tinsel offspring, that wouldn't come close to even a decent fraction of us getting 2Gs.) A lot of us play games to get away from life's realities, not to be reminded of them.

 

Okay, I know, I know, I shouldn't rant. I just really don't think this is fair or really good for DC. And don't get me wrong, I'm happy for the winners! I just think there should have been more.

 

 

[Kelkelen]

hmm.. we had 2 years for tinsels, we are now at 2 years for shimmers. If this is going to be an established pattern... I see the possibility of the numbers increasing yet again...

 

10/20/30 for tinsels

10/20/30 for shimmers

10/20/30 for new breed

and 30 HM

Ooooh, I like that idea -- only maybe up the number of HMs as well, to 90 or 100. It seems like the HMs aren't necessarily as much in demand in trading anyway, so needn't be as unique. Perhaps the number of HMs should be equal to the total number of 3rd prizes given out? I do think it would be nice for the CBs to have a better breeding rate; seems like lots of owners have said they're very difficult, although I don't know what the actual odds are. Maybe they're just paired with the wrong mate.

 

I just want to chime in to say that I think the raffle is handled very well. Anyone can have one entry, and only one entry. Odds of winning are equal for all who enter. Number of Prize Dragons has gone up each year. AND, I don't really think we need to raise the numbers much. For collectors who want to get a shiny dragon from each prize line, it could drive them insane trying to get 300 new lineages, you know? I like it that the Prize Dragons are so rare and special. After the Shimmers came out, I think the trade values for offspring from both Shimmers and Tinsels became very reasonable.

 

I'm not a very "powerful" player, but I've gotten a lot of lovely shiny lineages from 4th through 8th gens, through trading, AP catching, and gifting threads, and I give back their offspring, as well. I've managed to get lovely 3rd- and 4th-EGs with Shimmers, Tinsels, and Spriter's Alts. My only CB Gold is from a very recent and generous gift, but I've managed to catch 3 CB Silvers over the course of 3 years. Plenty of people will trade valuable dragons for nice checker lineages or for alts like Blacks, Vines, Ultraviolets, and Soulpeaces. So, I don't think it's impossible for people to get most of what they want without having a Prize Dragon. I'm not sure why people think the raffle is unfair, or why they believe they can't have nice dragons without Prize offspring to trade.

 

As far as lottery vs. raffle, usually a lottery implies that you have to pay to enter, and that the prize is monetary. A raffle involves winning an item as a prize, and you don't necessarily pay to take part. Which makes me once more say THANK YOU to TJ, Spriters, Mods, and all the rest who make these fun holiday events possible -- and all for free!

[LaHaine]

I deleted my previous post because I wanted to elaborate it (sorry fuzzbucket!)

 

It's good that TJ added 50 more winners.

It's good that TJ added in tinsels as well.

 

However, I still think the numbers are low. It just generates an angry and sad environment of jealousy and rage among the users for weeks that I do not enjoy.

 

 

I'm still expecting to see this in the following months:

- Better breeding (pls no ratio problems pls)

- More raffles through the year

[EscapistLore]

I just want to chime in to say that I think the raffle is handled very well. Anyone can have one entry, and only one entry. Odds of winning are equal for all who enter. Number of Prize Dragons has gone up each year. AND, I don't really think we need to raise the numbers much. For collectors who want to get a shiny dragon from each prize line, it could drive them insane trying to get 300 new lineages, you know? I like it that the Prize Dragons are so rare and special. After the Shimmers came out, I think the trade values for offspring from both Shimmers and Tinsels became very reasonable.

 

See... I don't mind collecting as much, as I want to make lineages. I can't, not really, unless I get extremely lucky. I can't catch CB rares, nor make negelcteds. So where does this leave the ones who make lineages? We can't play the way we want if we can't afford 2G (or very rarely 3g) prizes.

 

As far as everyone having one ticket and one ticket only and having the same chance, yes, that part is fair.

 

Whats your idea of reasonable, cause I certainly disagree on this part. ^.^ Unless I get really lucky, I'll never be able to afford a 2G.

 

Ah hah, but collectors can still collect lineages if numbers were greatly increased, and those who make lineages have a better chance, too.

[WraithZephyr]

As far as lottery vs. raffle, usually a lottery implies that you have to pay to enter, and that the prize is monetary. A raffle involves winning an item as a prize, and you don't necessarily pay to take part.

Lottery and Raffle - money can be used for both in order to get an entry (or multiple entries) into it.

 

Probably the best way to explain the differences between the two is...

 

With a raffle, the prize is a "thing". There is only one winner per thing because the entries are individually numbered and unique (no two people can have the same entry number).

 

With a lottery the prize is usually (but not always!) "money". With money prizes if the method of entry for the lottery allows for people to make up their own "entry number" then there is always a chance for more than one person to wind up with the same entry number and therefore possible for more than one person to win that prize (and consequently they have to split it).

[Fuzzbucket]

I deleted my previous post because I wanted to elaborate it (sorry fuzzbucket!)

 

It's good that TJ added 50 more winners.

It's good that TJ added in tinsels as well.

 

However, I still think the numbers are low. It just generates an angry and sad environment of jealousy and rage among the users for weeks that I do not enjoy.

 

 

I'm still expecting to see this in the following months:

- Better breeding (pls no ratio problems pls)

- More raffles through the year

Until we know how many people actually entered, we cannot know if it was a reasonable proportion of winners. If we hit 1%, that is industry standard for a raffle, and I think it's reasonable.

 

And we aren't all SUPPOSED to be able to win. There are plenty of dragons to create beautiful lineages with. Why not do a few of those ? They can be every but as stunning as lines with metallics or legendaries.

 

How is this, or this or this

 

any less attractive than something that happens to have a tinsel in there ? And why do they have to be low-gen ? I have no low gen tinsels, but I have built this that I am fond of.

 

I refuse to be jealous. Just as I'm not when I take part in the raffles for my granddaughter's school and I never win those either. If everyone won a competition, there would be no point having the competition in the first place - and a raffle is way better than having things that are JUDGED by other players. THAT was the only game here that could have made me want to quit - it was just awful.

 

What creates the nasty atmosphere here during and after these events is not the event, or the number of prizes, or TJ - it's us, the members, being unpleasant and objectionable to each other when we don't win, and greedy and/or snotty when we do.

 

Fuzz is deeply peeved here. It is all so silly, and so sad.

Edited January 12, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[angelicdragonpuppy]

See... I don't mind collecting as much, as I want to make lineages. I can't, not really, unless I get extremely lucky. I can't catch CB rares, nor make negelcteds. So where does this leave the ones who make lineages? We can't play the way we want if we can't afford 2G (or very rarely 3g) prizes.

Anyone can make Neglecteds, it just requires... skill and patience. And luck.

But it is possible. Just as catching CB Metals is possible, but hard. But getting a CB Prize? At the rate they're being distributed, that will never be a possibility. For many people, even getting 2gs will never be a possibility.

 

I think that's the big difference between the raffles and other hard-to-get things. I was around before the lottos were instated, and the super rares of that time were CB Metals, Neglecteds, and 2g Hollies. CB Metals can always be caught in the cave. Neglecteds can be made by anyone. And, as rare as 2g Hollies were, there was always the sweet, sweet hope of catching one in the AP. So there was a reasonable hope at getting all these things.

 

But with the CB Prizes? Whole new tier of impossibility. Even when it comes to 2gs, many of us can only look wistfully on while more popular or well-known players get literally dozens of them due to having connections to the winners, while everyone else misses out. There is very little hope of obtaining them. Instead, there's kind of a grim acceptance that most of us will be missing out.

 

There are certain things we'll never be able to do in the game, now, sadly (Frills and Old Pinks, past CB Holidays for newer players...), but by and large I am against such things. One of the things that made DC so nice for me was that, originally, anyone could get just about everything if they tried hard enough. But that's gone continually away over the years... and CB Prizes are probably the biggest offenders, as not only are they exclusive, but they're always there, just out of reach. At least with discontinueds and past CB Holidays people can accept it and move on without getting reminded on a near-constant basis of their existence.

 

So yes, I do think the number of prizes should be higher. Even with 1%--heck, even with 5%--of players winning, there will always be people without them. People will still pay well for them. Would having raffle winners only able to swap offspring for 1-2 CB Metals instead of being able to demand 5+ really be such a horrible thing? They'd still be pretty top tier--and there'd be more happy players, more lineages, and more chances at getting low gens for everyone else.

Edited January 12, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[EscapistLore]

I think that's the big difference between the raffles and other hard-to-get things. I was around before the lottos were instated, and the super rares of that time were CB Metals, Neglecteds, and 2g Hollies. CB Metals can always be caught in the cave. Neglecteds can be made by anyone. And, as rare as 2g Hollies were, there was always the sweet, sweet hope of catching one in the AP. So there was a reasonable hope at getting all these things.

 

But with the CB Prizes? Whole new tier of impossibility. Even when it comes to 2gs, many of us can only look wistfully on while more popular or well-known players get literally dozens of them due to having connections to the winners, while everyone else misses out. There is very little hope of obtaining them. Instead, there's kind of a grim acceptance that most of us will be missing out.

 

There are certain things we'll never be able to do in the game, now, sadly (Frills and Old Pinks, past CB Holidays for newer players...), but by and large I am against such things. One of the things that made DC so nice for me was that, originally, anyone could get just about everything if they tried hard enough. But that's gone continually away over the years... and CB Prizes are probably the biggest offenders, as not only are they exclusive, but they're always there, just out of reach. At least with discontinueds and past CB Holidays people can accept it and move on without getting reminded on a near-constant basis of their existence.

 

So yes, I do think the number of prizes should be higher. Even with 1%--heck, even with 5%--there will always be people without them. People will still pay well for them. Would having raffle winners only able to swap offspring for 1-2 CB Metals instead of demanding 5+ really be such a horrible thing? They'd still be pretty top tier--and there'd be more happy players, more lineages, and more chances at getting low gens for everyone else.

 

And... yeah. That's exactly what drew me back here after leaving a few years ago. The other 'rare' dragons, there's always a chance at getting them. For the past Holidays, I can accept that those who were here got them, and so I can't get CBs. That's fine by me. But prizes... We are here, we are active, and the majority of us can't get them or a 2G. In a game about hoarding, this.. really isn't a good thing.

 

And your last paragraph... *just claps in awe and agreement*

[LaHaine]

Until we know how many people actually entered, we cannot know if it was a reasonable proportion of winners. If we hit 1%, that is industry standard for a raffle, and I think it's reasonable.

 

And we aren't all SUPPOSED to be able to win. There are plenty of dragons to create beautiful lineages with. Why not do a few of those ? They can be every but as stunning as lines with metallics or legendaries.

 

How is this, or this or this

 

any less attractive than something that happens to have a tinsel in there ? And why do they have to be low-gen ? I have no low gen tinsels, but I have built this that I am fond of.

 

I refuse to be jealous. Just as I'm not when I take part in the raffles for my granddaughter's school and I never win those either. If everyone won a competition, there would be no point having the competition in the first place - and a raffle is way better than having things that are JUDGED by other players. THAT was the only game here that could have made me want to quit - it was just awful.

 

What creates the nasty atmosphere here during and after these events is not the event, or the number of prizes, or TJ - it's us, the members, being unpleasant and objectionable to each other when we don't win, and greedy and/or snotty when we do.

 

Fuzz is deeply peeved here. It is all so silly, and so sad.

We can't really change people, but we can change the way the game works.

The point I wanted to reach is that one: why do we even have raffles? I do enjoy the holiday events, but what's the point of a raffle? It's only fun for the few 50, 100 and 150 people who win. Outside of that, it's just angry posts and angry posts against angry posts. I don't enjoy January in DC and I'm quite tired of it as well. Although all other dragons are pretty, it doesn't really stop people from wanting the shiny cb prizes That's why more raffles and more winners wouldn't hurt anyone

[Kelkelen]

The point I wanted to reach is that one: why do we even have raffles? I do enjoy the holiday events, but what's the point of a raffle? It's only fun for the few 50, 100 and 150 people who win. Outside of that, it's just angry posts and angry posts against angry posts. I don't enjoy January in DC and I'm quite tired of it as well.

I don't think anyone can speak for all players. Plenty of people have fun congratulating the winners, enjoying the excitement, trading for offspring, seeing what dragon types, codes, and names the winners pick and if any cool trends crop up (like the Eric Clapton/Layla lineage), and don't get bent out of shape that they didn't win.

 

If you'd like more winners, that's all well and good. But there's nothing "unfair" about the raffle. We all get one entry, the winners are chosen, there's 150 winners (not 1, not 3, not 10... 150!). I don't have any problem with some people *wishing* for more winners to be chosen, but it's silly to call the game "unfair" just because you *want* more prizes to be handed out. (EDIT -- "you" meaning "those players saying the game is unfair" in general, not "you the specific poster.")

 

I guess it seems that some players believe they can not be happy without a CB Prize Dragon on their scroll. I don't know why that's the deal-breaker for having fun in the game or not. Why is it "unfair" that there is *one* dragon you may not ever have a CB of on your scroll? You can collect three hundred of the sprites, they just won't be CB.

 

@Escapist Lore, I say the prices became reasonable because after the fuss died down, a LOT of breeders will accept one nice egg or hatchie for a 5th- or 6th-gen perfect stair or spiral Shimmer. I got my only 4th-gen Shimmer from the free Departures thread. Several winners and spriters have posted their 2nd- or 3rd-gens for trades, asking only for common hatchies, or pretty lineages, or rainbow lineages, or in-cave alts like Blacks or Vines, or specific checker combos, or whatever they were interested in at the moment. Others routinely raffle off their eggs on the chat, or on the Trading boards. If you talk with people in the Even-Gen threads, or the Breeding threads, or plenty of the gifting threads, a lot of prize owners will talk openly about what they'd like to trade for. Some of them just don't want to trade dragons with people who won't do anything with it, but if you can explain the lineage you hope to build, they'll help you along. Have you tried meeting Prize owners on the Breeding boards, or sending polite PMs to the owners of the CBs and explained what you can offer, or what you'd like to try and build? Also, you *can* contact other people around the site to learn how to make NDs, if you'd like; and then you'd have very good trading fodder! Plus, there's always the Wishlist thread -- kind breeders and glompers are always looking through that for ideas, so make a list and keep it updated!

 

No, I don't own any 2nd-gen Tinsels or Shimmers, either. I don't know if I ever will. But I don't think it's out of the question. I've never actively pursued it, to find out. I do think I have a lot of really lovely lineages I'm working on, that might be worth a trade; and I also think if I showed a couple of the dragons I'd like to make mates for, that have Tinsels in the base, maybe some kind breeders could help me out.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Kelkelen