ANSWERED:Raffle Rethink?

[Piston Smashed]

Yes there is. A raffle is as fair is it gets. A raffle is open to everyone who "buys" (in this case gets, by cooking) a ticket.

 

The draw is made at random.

 

That is TOTALLY fair. In what way isn't it ? I suppose only in that not everyone gets a prize - well, that is what a draw is about. Is a lottery fair ? A tombola at the fairground ? Buying chances to win a box of chocolates ?

 

The objections are basically coming from people who mind what happens AFTERWARDS, in effect. Because some people aren't happy with prizes going to particular groups of people - people who won't do what they want to see done with the prizes - want that group of people excluded. People who don't breed. People who let prizes die, people who leave right after winning, people who breed what they see as "messy" lineages with them. Well, if I win a box of chocolates and flush them down the toilet - does that make it unfair that I won them ? Is it somehow unfair that I paid for a ticket to to to win them ?

 

No.

 

You may think it isn't fair that I didn't distribute them between you all instead - but it was my absolute right to enter and then to flush them. My money (cooking) is as good as anyone's. My motivation is my own. And that is my right.

 

The raffle isn't the issue - except in terms of the number of prizes awarded. It is people wanting it to fit their preferred playstyle that is the issue.

 

But I do think prizes should be increased in proportion to the number of entries (not players, entries.) If TJ were agreeable - and only if - to make them run at x% of entries

This sums it up nicely

 

It's the first time that I've heard of a raffle, where customers want to dictate where the prizes go, basically telling those that don't have as many dragons as some can't win it as I've been here longer than them and they don't deserve to win anything, I'm a collector blah blah blah.

 

Everyone has the same chance, they've all done the tasks set out for them and DESERVE to be able to win what's on offer as everyone else does. Nobody is better than anyone else, it's a fair way of doing things and everyone and has taken part is entitled to win it no matter how many dragons etc they have.

[Fuzzbucket]

That's why I, personally, wouldn't vote for set numbers. However, I can see that many people would.

Maybe they won't if they can just see that doing so will end us up back here probably with the very next raffle (if TJ is ever brave enough to risk another )

 

I THINK that legally the UK lottery HAS to have x prizes per x entries; it certainly has to give x% of the takings from ticket sales out as prizes.... Proportionality has to come into it somewhere, I feel...

[Evilminion]

I'm sorry, did I miss something? I didn't see TJ announce how many raffle prizes were being given away... are we just jumping the gun and assuming it's the same number as past years, or did he actually state a number?

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm sorry, did I miss something? I didn't see TJ announce how many raffle prizes were being given away... are we just jumping the gun and assuming it's the same number as past years, or did he actually state a number?

We are jumping the gun, yes. But we jump a lot of guns here !!!

[Evilminion]

We are jumping the gun, yes.  But we jump a lot of guns here !!!

Then I would like to offer this FORTUNE COOKIE OF DOOM to everyone who is kvetching about the raffle, without even knowing how many prizes TJ plans to award...

 

He who jumps gun in public, often gets shot in 'privates'.

 

Just sayin'.

[Amur_Rama]

I voted for an increase AND make prizes multiclutch. Because I think that would solve both problems at once. However, since this forum doesn't allow a multi-choice option, I do want to admit that I am split between this and "Yes, an increase based on a proportion of entries". As far as I can see, the raffle method is a hell of a lot fairer than the tree event. However, proportionally, you may as not enter for your odds of wining. So I'd like a bit more of a gradient, but that's just me. So if it comes down to those two options as a finally tally or whatever, feel free to throw my vote onto the higher pile.

 

I'm probably also in the minority of also liking the idea of a bronze trophy minimum for these kinds of games. If only to show a commitment to the game itself. The way I see it, the butthurt that suggestion is getting comes from some idea of exclusion. DC is all about exclusion. There's dragons newbs can never get and they complain about it, I don't see all the effort of "fairness" being put forward to people who'd like Old Pinks or Frills but can't have them because they weren't here for them. They weren't here in time to get them, tough titty, and that's the community's opinion. Much like vampire lineages, I'd bet it'd be something you'd be grandfathered into.

[Rally Vincent]

I'm probably also in the minority of also liking the idea of a bronze trophy minimum for these kinds of games. If only to show a commitment to the game itself. The way I see it, the butthurt that suggestion is getting comes from some idea of exclusion. DC is all about exclusion. There's dragons newbs can never get and they complain about it, I don't see all the effort of "fairness" being put forward to people who'd like Old Pinks or Frills but can't have them because they weren't here for them. They weren't here in time to get them, tough titty, and that's the community's opinion. Much like vampire lineages, I'd bet it'd be something you'd be grandfathered into.

The difference is that anybody who was there in time could get Frills and Old Pinks, no exception. You didn't need to have a Bronze trophy to get them. The reason for not getting one is a different and thus not comparable. You'll still not win the raffle if you didn't buy tickets, but you could have.

[Amur_Rama]

Actually, what that had more to do with people complaining that this wouldn't be fair to newbies. The way I see it is if it was added tomorrow, there wouldn't be any difference to the player that joined on Sunday. It'd be part of the rules. Most people, when they join a game and are told that it's a rule that they have to wait a bit for something, usually just roll with it. When they joined, that's the way things were. I joined when I joined and just missed Sweetlings, I can't expect everything to go back to let me get them now. I missed them and now they're gone; future player just missed the window of not needing a bronze trophy to earn raffle tickets.

 

There's a lot of complaining for the future rights of people who haven't even joined yet. Who's to say they'd even notice?

Edited January 3, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[Rally Vincent]

I joined when I joined and just missed Sweetlings, I can't expect everything to go back to let me get them now. I missed them and now they're gone; future player just missed the window of not needing a bronze trophy to earn raffle tickets.

If you'd link your example, you'd have tell that newbies cannot get tickets for last year's raffle, like you didn't get CB Sweetling. But if you'd have been there, you could have gotten your two. Even if you had just joined oin that day. Nobody would have expected you from getting a Bronze Trophy first. There were no hindrances other then you not "physically" virtually being there.

 

 

[Amur_Rama]

If you'd link your example, you'd have tell that newbies cannot get tickets for last year's raffle, like you didn't get CB Sweetling. But if you'd have been there, you could have gotten your two. Even if you had just joined oin that day. Nobody would have expected you from getting a Bronze Trophy first. There were no hindrances other then you not "physically" virtually being there.

Hmm, point. And a good one at that. But there's a difference between these prizes and CB Sweetlings (or Frills or any other limited release), there's only X number of prizes. A full cave drop is open to everyone, they can even double up if they have people willing to trade/gift them hatchlings, like how Halloween went over. No one can "double-up" on this prize thing, and it isn't fair like in a cave drop where all you have to do is be patient and click fastest. These eggs aren't "caught", they're magically deposited on some lucky sod's scroll, so how they aren't game-breaking on that facet alone is beyond me.

 

It's just made worse because there's only X number of them, meanwhile the cave kept spitting out Sweetlings until the 24 hour time limit for them came up, my scroll and membership status had nothing to do with it, so it isn't really an apt comparison. It certainly wasn't counting everyone hunting that day, or any other release day and saying, "you can have one and you arbitrary thousand can't", the raffle is. That being said, the raffle is fair in and of itself, because it's being done by computer and a computer can't have a preference, it can only look for qualifiers. If you meet the qualifiers, you pass through the sieve the computer had programed into it.

 

But anyway, as I said, I don't mind a bronze limit and I don't really care either way, I'm over the hump and it won't affect me, or I'd be new and would take the hump in stride like I have all the other humps in DC. I really only chimed in to explain that I'd have liked to vote for two options instead of just the one I chose. The raffle is fair, it's just that the prizes are far too limited for the amount of effort people put forth in it..

 

[Thuban]

Thu's thoughts on. . .

 

Multi-clutches: For a long time, i thought it would be a good idea for new releases to be able to breed multi-clutches for the first month after release. Spread the love so to speak.. but when i got to thinking about it... every one of those extra eggs bred, reduce the amount dropped in cave, making it even harder to get the cbs on this very highly "gotta catch them all" sites mindset. I stopped caring about new releases a long time ago, because i know anything thats released will be around, and anything that ends up a blocker will end up hoarded eventually by me.

 

Multi-clutches break ratios faster than anything else. More in cirvulation means less in cave. In terms of breeding these prize dragons: multi clutches would mean people would have access to the extras sooner, BUT the end result would be less chances of breeding babies in as little as 6 months... compared to the two-ish years it took for tins to hit their repective place in the ratios.

 

So no votes for multi clutches from me.

 

More babies being handed out as prizes: Yes, im willing to agree that a larger amount of prizes would be a good thing to have however, i have the same concerns i stated up there. More initial babies being released would directly impact how many will be bred before they hit their "cap". Now, i realize thats a bit alarmist.. but I'm more laid back about releases than most people. I know when these things are handed out.. I will eventually get one.It might be awhile, but eventualy one will happen. They will very likely breed like tins did. Lots off eggs in the beginning and a slow decline in successful pairings over the next year or three. The only personal stake i have here is that more prizes being handed out will /hopefully/ make it easier to do checker lines with the second gens (i cant even get balloon babies out of my tin/balloon checker.. which is really depressing).

 

I support an increase in prizes being handed out.. but not an insanely high amount. Assuming HM is still an option for this raffle.. doubling prizes would also mean doubling the HMs that could be handed out... and I have legit concerns that the caves ratios miiiight not like that much.

 

 

Excluding people based on "newness":: no. Big fat No. Because this raffle was designed specifically to make people /work/ for their entries, anyone who wins.. did so FAIRLY. They made the effort to get their tickets, they made the effort to participate.. therefore if they win or not is completely fair.

 

Requiring the winners to breed: Every single time a change happens in this game, people cry foul over their style of play being affected. While some styles are always inevitably affected, the staff does put serious consideration into making things like this as fair as possible. I know plenty of people who will not breed offscroll. They keep every egg they breed, they do not trade them. That is their style of play, their choice. Its only a problem if you allow it to be one. Instead of being "greedy" and stalking these people we should leave the choice up to them on whether or not they will breed to gift, trade or keep. That is one of the most BASIC things about this game: you can play it ANYWAY you want to.

 

 

The prices of existing second gens: Hey guys, you do realize that everyone who engages in trading is directly responsible for how expensive some of these trades can be.. right? If people refuse to pay cb metals for them.. they wont be worth cb metals. If people refuse to pay NDs they wont be worth NDs. I refused to pay anything more than 15 cb hatchys for my second gens. Even then it felt dirty because I dont even value cbs metals as being worth more than 8. I think NDs are worthless as trade fodder. They arent hard to make, and are more common than people think, therefore on Thu's scale of worth, arent worth more than like.. 8 cave blockers. Of course, thats my own system. Other people value things differently. I view caveblockers as worth more specifically because im aware that my hoarding them helps rares be easier to breed and catch for those who actually value them. If the userbase as a whole can be patient and not give into the insane "gotta have it NOW" demand.. then they would be affordable. I very highly respect those cb tin owners who dont accept trades for their babies, who only breed to share the love. I would gladly join that boat. I dont /need/ anything. Anything i want, if i want it bad enough I can get.

 

 

Final thoughts: I personally have no plans to stalk the new winners when they are announced. I know that new prizes will breed well and that they will end up in the AP.It amazes me how quickly people forgot about the tin walls in the hatcheries. If peoples main concerns is really "well i want pretty lineages" I would much rather vote for removing the lineage pages. Collecting was much more enjoyable to me when i didnt care what the grandfather 3 gens back was. I still ahve a good number of my original grabs because of the fact i was happy just to /have/ them.

[TheGrox]

Since day 1, I have not understood this thread, the raffle has to be changed because you have been unable to get the Tinsels you wanted from last year's winners? Sorry, I do not understand, and never will.

I created this thread because I thought the raffle needed changing - I still do. I only wanted to DISCUSS possible ways to change it. I think the overwhelming response is that we need more prizes, that at least most people can agree on. So this thread has been somewhat constructive.

 

I didn't create this thread to try to in any way bias the raffle in my favour, nor to moan about how I 'can't get' something. I have enough 2nd and 3rd gen tinsels, I have no need to moan about it. I seem to be being made out as some greedy guy who's moaning about how they can't get everything they want, just because I brought up such a topic as changing the raffle.

 

 

I still say, new players wouldn't mind being excluded - like someone said, it would be the rules. If I join a site, I don't automatically feel entitled to everything it has to offer straight away. It wouldn't make me quit if I saw a raffle that I couldn't enter - it'd just make me interested to be able to enter it next year.

[Rally Vincent]

That is one of the most BASIC things about this game: you can play it ANYWAY you want to.

In my opinion, we all should add "on YOUR own scroll" to that. Because some always take that as "the way someone else plays muddles with how I play - do something about it". But it is only on your own scroll where one can do what they want. But what someone else does is none of anyone else's business.

 

 

[Coronaviridae]

In my opinion, we all should add "on YOUR own scroll" to that. Because some always take that as "the way someone else plays muddles with how I play - do something about it". But it is only on your own scroll where one can do what they want. But what someone else does is none of anyone else's business.

Yes. Thank you.

 

I didn't create this thread to try to in any way bias the raffle in my favour, nor to moan about how I 'can't get' something. I have enough 2nd and 3rd gen tinsels, I have no need to moan about it. I seem to be being made out as some greedy guy who's moaning about how they can't get everything they want, just because I brought up such a topic as changing the raffle.

Probably because you phrased the OP, and all subsequent arguments, in the form of "MY playstyle involves getting all the tinsels I can, and other people's failure to breed Tinsels has negatively impacted ME (and other people exactly like me), so we should make changes". If not greedy, it's certainly self-centered, since the strongest version of your arguments you've made has been on the basis of "but what about me and what I want".

 

Versus, perhaps, the more relevant "what about anyone who happens to win a prize; what's most equitable to them?". To which I say, "letting them do whatever they want, it's their dragon". Declaring certain kinds of people unfit to win before the draw even happens on the basis of what they might do is not okay.

 

I still say, new players wouldn't mind being excluded - like someone said, it would be the rules. If I join a site, I don't automatically feel entitled to everything it has to offer straight away. It wouldn't make me quit if I saw a raffle that I couldn't enter - it'd just make me interested to be able to enter it next year.

Again, that's all you. I've said it would be a huge deterrent to me, as have a number of other players, new and old. Interestingly, though, neither you--nor the people who take your stance--nor me, nor anyone else on this thread can speak for what potential new players want. We can just offer opinions on what's fairest to those potential new players, and I don't find exclusion particularly fair. Other people (obviously) disagree, but that's where I am.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Coronaviridae

[TheGrox]

Rudeness removed. Edited January 10, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Rally Vincent]

I didn't create this thread to try to in any way bias the raffle in my favour, nor to moan about how I 'can't get' something.

 

All I'm saying is: for me, the fun of the raffle was collecting lineages from all the new tinsels. But that's ruined when half the owners leave, like last year.

 

This is my point. You can all talk about obscure playstyles that will be affected by any changes, but; I'm sure others share my playstyle too, and a lot of inactive owners RUINS my playstyle - making it impossible for me to collect all that I want to.

 

[_Z_]

~Members have been asked more then once, to attack the topic not each other.~

 

~Closing again while I read new posts, giving members time to cool down.~

 

Edit to add: Off topic spam in a hot topic does not help, it only adds to the problem. Please use the report tool.

 

Topic is unlocked.

Edited January 3, 2013 by _Z_

[KageSora]

Then I would like to offer this FORTUNE COOKIE OF DOOM to everyone who is kvetching about the raffle, without even knowing how many prizes TJ plans to award...

 

He who jumps gun in public, often gets shot in 'privates'.

 

Just sayin'.

I don't really think that's applicable here. Firstly, as TJ hasn't said anything about numbers yet, this thread could potentially give him some ideas about what members want, and possibly cause him to release a different number than what he had in mind--though that could be good or bad.

 

Secondly, the idea of increased numbers would be proposed to deal with future instances of the raffle. Judging by the "set numbers" way we've done it in the past, it's reasonable to assume that there would be a fixed number of dragons released this year, and in future raffles, unless the userbase were to convince TJ to release them proportionally. So, it's not so much jumping the gun as making reasonable assumptions based on past instances to attempt to improve future events.

[siliconrose]

It's theoretically possible the reason the raffle hasn't happened yet is because TJ was watching this thread and considering whether to change the way he was planning to do things. If that is the case, I hope he's got enough information. I think we've chewed things over pretty well at this point (and I'm impatient).

 

Or, you know, he could just be busy.

[Coronaviridae]

Believe what you want about me, I honestly don't care any more. I wish people wouldn't pick apart the phrasing of my arguments rather than the arguments themselves, I may refer to my own experiences and use myself as an example, but I know there are a lot of people on DC that play in the same way I do. Whilst I recognise that there are some people who play VERY differently than me, they are often minorities rather than majorities. I am trying to think of the majority of people - the majority, I think, try to collect tinsels, often low gens and from a lot of different lineages. Hell, you make me sound like I'm alone in the way I play. I'm certainly not.

 

There are, believe it or not, a fair few people who share similar opinions as me. Some have posted in this thread, but their opinions have been so oppressed and their posts so picked apart and turned against them, by *certain people* who can't seem to give up in this thread, that they no longer post.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've only been responding directly to you (and occasionally to PF13) when the idea came up--however it was phrased--that people who win prize dragons "owe" something to the community because they won. I'm not sure that makes me one of those *certain people* who's hounding people into not posting because ... I'm ... not talking to them ...

 

Also, given the vast majority of DC players don't visit the forums, or don't visit them regularly, they likely do not put any extra value on tinsels beyond "oo, I got one!". This would mean generation and lineage (and low generation/different lineages) may not be all that valuable to them. The portion of the community that does place exceptional value on tinsel eggs is largely restricted to forumgoers, and even then it's not every person on the forum, or every trader, who finds them worth trading for or collecting.

 

My general impression from reading this thread is that there is not a majority--maybe not even of a plurality--of players who've made "collect a bunch of tinsels from every existing tinsel" their particular playstyle. If the actions of others make your playstyle completely impossible to the point that they need to modify their play to enable yours, you...may want to rethink how you play.

 

To use an example of this that's not related to the current highly charged topic, let's say that I want every egg that I breed from my first neotropical pair to survive to adulthood as a neotropical. If I kept them all on my scroll, then I can guarantee I can play the game exactly my way because I won't kill or vamp any of their eggs.

 

But let's say I want all of their offspring to survive AND get on as many scrolls as possible. To do that, I make a thread in the forums that says I'm giving out their eggs to anyone who 1) won't freeze the hatchlings (so they all grow up) and 2) won't kill or vamp the eggs. I've still got pretty good chances then of an egg never dying and always growing to adulthood, but someone may still choose to freeze or kill one of them once the egg's on their scroll. That's the risk I take.

 

But let's take it a step further--say I don't want to bother with a forum thread and just decide to throw the eggs into the AP every time so I can get them all over the place. At this point it's pretty much impossible that every single egg will grow up to adulthood--neotropical eggs in the AP of ANY generation tend to get murdered or raised and frozen an awful lot, like any other blocker egg. This is, however, "my playstyle", and my playstyle is that I don't want anyone killing my eggs.

 

In the second OR third case, am I justified in coming on the forums and saying that the kill, freeze, and bite actions are making my playstyle impossible, so they should be banned?

Edited January 4, 2013 by Coronaviridae

[urusta]

I know I am going to regret this, but here goes:

 

I am with Grox on the matter of restricting who can get a prize dragon. I think the bronze trophy is a good marking point for commitment.

 

By that, I do not mean, that new players can not enter the raffle, but they can just not win the special breed, but get an HM prize, where they can choose what they want. When I was new, I would have preferred picking a dragon I wanted to have over getting one I have never heard of. That way it does not matter if they quit after a week, the new breed would still be in the game with "older" players, thus upping the chances that at least some will be bred (and, yes, no one is required to breed, but with higher numbers with more players, it may be possible that one of them does breed).

 

If someone really does have a weird playing style that has kept them from getting 50 Dragons, they can still get a coveted special dragon they have wished for.

 

Come to think of it: Imagine the result of the first raffle would have been the initial introduction of the tinsels, with only two gold tinsel bred in a year and most of the price dragons not known of. That could be what we are facing this time - New dragons and no one gets one, even in a year! Just imagine the drama on this forum. It would be fascinating to watch (for a lurker like me at least).

 

*goes back to her lurking and waits for this thread to be closed once again*

[Tawanda001]

Thu's thoughts on. . .

 

Multi-clutches: For a long time, i thought it would be a good idea for new releases to be able to breed multi-clutches for the first month after release. Spread the love so to speak.. but when i got to thinking about it... every one of those extra eggs bred, reduce the amount dropped in cave, making it even harder to get the cbs on this very highly "gotta catch them all" sites mindset. I stopped caring about new releases a long time ago, because i know anything thats released will be around, and anything that ends up a blocker will end up hoarded eventually by me.

 

Multi-clutches break ratios faster than anything else. More in cirvulation means less in cave. In terms of breeding these prize dragons: multi clutches would mean people would have access to the extras sooner, BUT the end result would be less chances of breeding babies in as little as 6 months... compared to the two-ish years it took for tins to hit their repective place in the ratios.

 

So no votes for multi clutches from me.

 

A mild rebuttal?

 

Because prize dragons will never drop in cave, so multi-clutching in this particular instance will not have quite the same effect.

Possibly breeding will slow down sooner, but not until ratios have evened out yes? If the offspring are that prolific it just means that they spread throughout the community that much faster. The only negative I see associated with that is the trade value goes down faster, and I'm not convinced that's a bad thing either.

 

Prize dragons are unique in that they are the only dragons that are so totally under the control of their owners, so unavailable to the general population except at the whim of the winners.

Spriters alts and other holidays- forced sharing through multi-clutches

Vamps- forced sharing through repulsing

ND's- available to anyone with the patience to learn to make them

Everything else (except discontinued of course) is readily available if you sit through the biomes long enough.

 

I'm probably very much in the minority but I think a lot of the feelings of unfairness would evaporate if the prize dragons were either shared by none (unbreedable) or shared by all (multi-clutch).

 

Bleh, I'm not great at explaining things, so I hope some of this makes some sense.

[HeatherMarie]

Anyone capable of meeting the basic requirements of this year's raffle has EARNED their ticket. It does not matter one whit if they signed up an hour ago, has played the game since day one, doesn't ever breed any dragons, or has won a prize before. They paid for their ticket(s) so they should get their chance to win just like everyone else who earned their ticket(s).  Being outright prejudiced against a specific group of the player base and denying them from being able to enter because they are not deemed "good enough" to enter the contest based on some discriminatory criteria is just plain WRONG.  Don't discriminate because you are afraid and selfish enough to think that they might not choose to share their prize in a manner you seem to think they should.

(bolding for emphasis)

 

THIS THIS THIS AND THIS. Worded perfectly. And no matter how anyone else tries to spin it, this is really what it comes down to.

 

(on the other topics, I don't think I'd support multi-clutching, but I definitely support an increase in raffle winners)

[Nakase]

Totally skipping the debate to put my two cents in here.

More Dragons =)

As an artist, I love designing new breeds, and if we can have more prizes and more breeds, I'm ALL for it.

Making the raffle tickets harder...no =/ I think this time you had to work for the tickets.

Also, being someone who has been bombarded with breeding requests before, it is not fun and takes the fun out of this game. =( So more prizes would fix that ^^

 

I don't come here often, so if you want to talk to-me- more on this, you can PM me.

[Evilminion]

I suspect at this point, Teej is seriously considering making the new prize dragon unbreedable... if it isn't already...

 

I haven't actually weighed in on the subject yet -- except to voice my perpetual bemusement about how quickly this forum devolves from "yay, a new dragon!" to "RAHR RAHR RAGE RAGE RAGE RAHR!" -- so for what it's worth, here is my take on the situation. Since I'm not going to win one of these mysterious new prizelings (family curse; we never win anything), my only chance to acquire one will be to trade for an offspring. It is therefore obviously in my best interest to have the eggs go to players who will breed and trade them.

 

But yet, with that said:

 

1) We have no idea what the specifics of the raffle actually are, meaning no idea how few or how many prizelings will be awarded, AND

 

2) We have no idea whether the prizeling will even be breedable, or whether it will be a new species of dinosaur with cardboard wings and a gift bow on its forehead, AND

 

3) There are already several sprites in the game that I'll never be able to collect (designers' recolors, alt sweetlings, non-tricolor snow angels...), so even if every single prizeling goes to someone who never intends to breed it, and the species never enters general circulation, it's the nature of the game and not something to lose sleep over, AND

 

4) Eligibility for the raffle was stated up front, and I entered it anyway, SO

 

Que sera sera.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Evilminion