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[Obscure_Trash]

Classes aren't in session for me and haven't been since May, yet I'm still trying to take care of college stuff. I don't know about TJ, but I also have a summer job, which is keeping me busier than class. Just because he said he could devote more time to DC doesn't mean he can devote all day to it. I know I sometimes leave things unanswered, because I go to look for an answer or solution, which can sometimes take a while, but then something else pops up and I forget to go back and even give a "I'm still trying, let me get back to you". I have a feeling this is maybe what happens to TJ, too. Or maybe he just gets tired of not being able to tell people "you're right - the coding did get messed up in this update, let me go fix it" which is what people seem to be looking for. =X

 

~

 

Yes, TJ's e-mail is linked at the bottom of every single cave page. Mods do pass on answers from TJ when we know we're supposed to be asking for them and when we get them to pass on. Usually, that's done in a help thread where people were asking for something that only TJ can answer, though he sometimes beats us to the punch. :3

[~!~]

How many times do I have to say it? TJ is not god just because it's his site and he made the game. He's still human and capable of making mistakes.. and he's no better than anyone else here, regardless of how much the fanfreaks think he is.

On the one hand, yeah, TJ isn't necessarily right about everything, but on the other hand he kind of is.

 

For instance, right now it's just as hard to get a CB Black as it is to get a CB Silver. I think that's terrible and should be corrected. But perhaps TJ does not. Perhaps in TJ's eyes, all is right and as it should be. And honestly, I think that's his call, because it's his game and he can make it however he wants to. I can only guess at what he might have intended when he created the game in the first place.

 

I don't think TJ is ignoring the problem. I mean, he might be, but I don't think he is. He probably has lots of other things to do with his life. He probably has about as much time to devote to DC as you or I do, and I know for me, that's not much time. I am working on a fansite right now, and I haven't worked on it since school ended because it's d-u-l-l dull.

 

I want the ratios fixed. They're messed up. Things are wacky. But I don't know how DC works, I don't know if the dragons are stored and generated in some convoluted way that only a high-school junior could think up, and fixing the ratios would cause tons and tons of problems.

 

I think TJ could learn a lot from GPX+. Their setup is eerily similar to DC (with a "cave" and an "AP" and such). I don't go on their forums a lot, and Pokemon grow incredibly slowly (because the bleepers don't allow bleeping fansites and I don't want to go around clicking things) so I don't really see any "blocking" happening. Yet, the site has over 450 different species (every Pokemon gens 1-5, plus some special ones). I'm not active enough in their community to know what's the difference between GPX+ and DC, but they seem to have their carps together and we sort of don't. Maybe there could be talk. *shrug*

 

I'm not afraid of letting the fur fly. If DC turns into a game I'd rather not play, I'll stop playing, and if it doesn't, I'll keep playing. Even if half the userbase stop playing, it won't be the end of the world, and it won't be the end of DC. An online game isn't the be all and end all of anybody's life (unless their income is dependent on it, and DC doesn't fall into that category).

[Lila]

I think that some people take a collectibles game too seriously /: I don't even go to the cave that much, I'm mostly on the forums. I mean...I do other things than sit and wait for eggs to drop. I have to deal with other things, even if it is summer.

 

I can see how one would defend TJ, and I could see where one could criticize him. But it is his game in the end and as he has stated, it's not his life. So if you don't like something, let him know and he'll change it in his own time.

 

Education is much, much more important than an adoptables game. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Sir Barton]

On the one hand, yeah, TJ isn't necessarily right about everything, but on the other hand he kind of is.

 

For instance, right now it's just as hard to get a CB Black as it is to get a CB Silver.  I think that's terrible and should be corrected.  But perhaps TJ does not.  Perhaps in TJ's eyes, all is right and as it should be.  And honestly, I think that's his call, because it's his game and he can make it however he wants to.  I can only guess at what he might have intended when he created the game in the first place.

 

I'm just following the thread from the shadows but I really feel the need to throw my two cents in here because I've really had enough of comments like the bold line in general. Yes, TJ created the game but it has grown into something much larger then a school project or whatever it was. There is a huge user base and if TJ works it right he can turn a profit from the game through adds, which we already know cover the cost of running the site, merchandise, and donations. Yes, it's a free site but he should still be able to put a little jingle in his pocket. With that idea, DC is a business, no matter how minor of one it maybe and in the business world "The Customer Is Always Right." While nothing may ever change, TJ does have a duty to take his customer base's concerns seriously. Even if he isn't running DC as a profit he should look at it as good practice for how to run a business once he is out of school. Running a successful website will certainly look good on a resume. That alone should be reason enough for him to attempt to smooth the rough spots instead of allowing his "fans" to defend him with "It's TJ's site and he can run it anyway he wants to. If you don't like it you can just leave." That is a childish mentality that doesn't get anyone anywhere and that particular song and dance is so far past old it isn't funny.

 

That was not directed personally at you, ~!~, so please don't take it as such. That is something that has been bothering me for months now and I just had to take this opportunity to say that.

 

*returns to the shadows*

Edited July 17, 2011 by Sir Barton

[HeatherMarie]

Honestly, I'm all about the lack of communication. If this breeding problem is "normal" with the way TJ wants to run DragonCave, if he thinks that nothing needs to be changed because this is the way he wants it, well then us users will just have to adjust or leave.

 

But the ignoring, the many many threads with nothing from TJ (except in the Vamp-bite thread, that "nothing was wrong" or somesuch), *that* is what angers me.

 

Yes, this is TJ's site, he can do what he pleases. But there are hundreds and hundreds of upset users wondering *why* things are changing. It's common courtesy to at least make a post going "this breeding-rate is the way I want it, and it's the way it's going to stay" or whatever it is he wants. He can at least *tell* us instead of completely ignoring that there even *is* something different.

 

[Thuban]

What I see is that people request, complain and whine until they get what they want, are all mushy and grateful for a few days and then move onto the next thing they feel they need to whine and moan about.

 

TJ does respond when you contact him directly.. email link isnt working for you then pm him here on the forum or poke him on the chat or hit him up on the msn link he has in his profile. I will admit that i have been just as frustrated with the things people are complaining about as anyone else, however if you only contact him once, then wait a month then get upset about it well thats kid of your own fault. there are many many ways to get a hold of him, he has a twitter, theres the dragcave twitter account, the links in his sig to the chat, the info in his profile and a simple google search bring up even more ways to get his attention.

 

I can understand why people are so worked up.. but if you guys really think about it, he does listen to you. You wanted bsa's they happened, people wanted different areas for hunting, they happened.. more events, more releases.. yep those happened too. Better lineage viewing, check. Progenys.. check. He may not always respond but when things are brought to his attention, he does usually find a way to make things work. You cant honestly expect him to give definite answers to every problem that comes up or every request thats made. People here take his words as absolute truth, and it would be a bad move on his part to say something that isnt necessarily true.

[~!~]

That was not directed personally at you, ~!~, so please don't take it as such. That is something that has been bothering me for months now and I just had to take this opportunity to say that.

I get the gist. I know I'm not usually the one defending TJ... but I don't really agree with your assessment of the situation DC is in. Sure, TJ could turn a profit off this site. The bottom line is, he doesn't. He gains little to nothing from keeping the site around. Yeah, sure, I support his continual efforts to improve the site, but I don't feel like he is obligated to make them.

 

He's like the sprite artists. Every time somebody suggests something that would require a jillion new sprites (shinies, animated sprites, dimorphism, Ascendeds, more alts, hoarding) people come up and are like "no way that would be too much work for the spriters." I call bull. Nobody's saying this has to be done by next week. The spriters can crank out sprites no faster than they do right now, at a pace that is completely comfortable to them, and the entire project may be done in a year, but it'll be done, and that's what matters.

 

Key difference between TJ and the spriters: we can get more spriters. New members are joining the forum all the time, some with lots of artistic talent, and they can jump into the fray of spriting whenever they want. TJ, however, seems uninterested in taking on a coding partner. That might be causing some of the problems lately.

 

Also, on the subject of thread closings:

 

I think this forum is too hard on drama. I think we're a bunch of sissies who can't stand the sight of blood. I don't think a bit of drama every now and then is a bad thing. Obviously, we don't want every little disagreement to erupt into a forum-wide fight, but the occasional forum-wide fight won't hurt us. What doesn't kill us (and drama certainly won't) just makes us tougher.

 

Remember the mass exodus that surrounded the Venting thread removal? Did that kill us? No. Did it make us tougher? I think so. We're all adults on the forums, and those who behave otherwise can get punished, even banned. The DC forums should be a place where people can handle a fight, make up, and have everything be back to normal again in a week. We shouldn't have to hide our problems to manage to get along.

 

There's a difference between a fight and a tantrum. Adults fight, children throw tantrums. Adults use harsh words with each other, children attack each other personally. Adults might shout, they might say things they don't mean, and they might hurt each other's feelings, but they get over it eventually. They might even learn something from the situation.

 

Right now, the members of this forum are treated like children, because some of the members are, in fact, children. But I don't think anybody under the age of 13 can really understand the mechanics of the game enough to argue about it the way people have been doing lately.

[siliconrose]

Here's the issue with that. You cannot make everyone happy. Even if you give them what they want they will still complain about it and or something else. Its an unending problem and most of those problems are USER created, not the site itself. Its the users who decide what to breed and not breed, its their fault the ratios are as they are, not TJ's.

 

I am about to graduate as a game designer so things like this is COMMON.

I'm sorry, but I feel like I have to comment on this. A game that can be broken by the users, particularly a game that can be broken by the users accidentally, without malicious intent, is broken.

 

Yes, you can't make the users happy all the time, but the game has to be resilient, such that a subset of users can't make all the other users unhappy.

[~!~]

I'm sorry, but I feel like I have to comment on this. A game that can be broken by the users, particularly a game that can be broken by the users accidentally, without malicious intent, is broken.

I agree with this. I think it's ridiculous to assume that DC is not broken in it's current state.

 

You see that CB Gold on my scroll? Only CB metallic I have. Ever since Mod Mayhem, I haven't seen a metallic in the cave. (In fact, I'm pretty sure they disappeared shortly after the addition of alt. Blacks and alt. Vines... but I'm fuzzy on that one.)

[hazeh]

Uh, having CB metallics be super rare isn't going to 'break the game'. Sure, it's hard, but that should only double your efforts if you really want it. I had someone offer me a CB silver the other day, so they're still there.

 

 

Edit for wording fail.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[~!~]

Uh, having CB metallics be super rare isn't going to 'break the game'. Sure, it's hard, but that should only double your efforts if you really want it. I had someone offer me a CB silver the other day, so they're still there.

 

 

Edit for wording fail.

If the "wording fail" you were talking about was starting your sentence with "uh," as if you're talking to some sort of wacko, you missed it.

 

But seriously, I was just talking about their decline. Obviously they are supposed to be rare. I don't even particularly want a CB metallic. (Well, I do because I would like to have something worth trading for a good-lineaged Tinsel, but other than that, not really.) I wanted to use myself as an example because I've been using the same computer on the same internet connection with the same browser, so I can figure it's a change in the site that's caused me to see fewer metallics.

[Dr. Paine]

It could also just be the constant influx of new people. I don't know what the newcomer to quitter ratio is, but I'm pretty sure the former is higher. More people just puts more strain on things, especially if they visit the forums and agree with the usual concepts of rarity and such here.

 

The supply just can't meet the demand. Tough cookies, but that's how it is.

 

ETA: And yes, we can say that the supply should be changed to meet the demand, but... honestly, what would that accomplish? People would then go on about how rares are too easy to get and no longer rare and that you can't trade them for anything any more. For god's sake, it's just a game. They're just pictures. Real life has enough issues, you don't need to bring them to a simple game about collecting dragon pictures.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Dr. Paine

[Lila]

It could also just be the constant influx of new people. I don't know what the newcomer to quitter ratio is, but I'm pretty sure the former is higher. More people just puts more strain on things, especially if they visit the forums and agree with the usual concepts of rarity and such here.

 

The supply just can't meet the demand. Tough cookies, but that's how it is.

le this

 

And it's his hobby. Not his career. So. Yeah.

[~!~]

And yes, we can say that the supply should be changed to meet the demand, but... honestly, what would that accomplish? People would then go on about how rares are too easy to get and no longer rare and that you can't trade them for anything any more.

I disagree. There's got to be some sort of point of balance between the two. Might take a while and a lot of adjustment to find it, but I think it exists.

[Sir Barton]

And it's his hobby. Not his career. So. Yeah.

And it still has potential to make him money (even if he doesn't pursue that avenue) along with being an excellent blurp on his resume when he is looking for work. Besides, don't you want your hobbies to reflect your best efforts? I know I do whether I'm breeding show birds, decorating a cake for a birthday, cooking a gourmet meal or doing woodworking; none of which have anything to do with my career. I want someone to be happy when they take one of my baby birds home or serve one of my cakes at their wedding. Why shouldn't TJ strive to make the best sprite collecting experience possible since it is linked to his name? It's called taking pride in your work. Then again in this disposable world perhaps that is an old fashion quality that has run it's course. *shrugs*

Edited July 17, 2011 by Sir Barton

[Dr. Paine]

I disagree. There's got to be some sort of point of balance between the two. Might take a while and a lot of adjustment to find it, but I think it exists.

Possibly, but I'm going to be a bit pessimistic on that one x3

 

Partly since we members are mostly responsible for assigning rarity to various breeds, lineages (or lack of), and that causes even more screwing over of everything. One month, CB blue Nebulas will be all the rage, you could probably get a metallic or two for one. The next, that same Nebula could be virtually worthless because of a sudden slight but visible increase in some sort of 3rd gen BlackxGold Dorkfaces.

 

The constant flux of what's desirable and what isn't is an enormous factor in the ratios being constantly messed up in one way or another. The system was not originally designed to take that sort of play into account, or at least, not to the degree it should be, there was and still is simply a set number of rares, uncommons, and commons. Players going against that grain will just muck up the system. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, not at all, but we have to accept that fact, and the fact that TJ probably won't just pump out the desired eggs when they're wanted.

[Nine]

Kind of skimming over the posts here and bouncing off from the main discussion, but oh well. This isn't about ratios, it's more boring =)

 

I get a strong sense of resentment toward much of the user base here. Criticism and complaints are seen in such a negative light, one almost feels the need to put a disclaimer of "didn't mean to offend, not trying to vent, pls don't ban me" after every single post. You could say that watching one's language is a necessity in any forum, and I'd agree, but being hesitant to even mention your opinion or ideas is a bit extreme.

 

I truly believe there needs to be more of a connection between staff and user base somehow. Yes, it is impossible to appease the masses and quite often it seems like complaints come in strong as a river, but those are the realities of being staff on a forum (or anywhere). Fer example. Don't take the outcries of the redonkulous vamp ratios personally, people are upset and confused and agitated at the denial of there being a problem. People are crying foul because they feel something is wrong, not because they want to make your life difficult. Such adamant censoring tends to create more hard feelings and "drama" than was hoped to be avoided. Nine's wondering if he should even post this, or if it'll just incite more hard feelings and disagreement. Too late now, oops =o

 

Maybe I'm just making a mountain out of a mole hill here-- maybe there's nothing to it. I am making generalized accusations here, after all.

But I can use myself as an example =/ When I got warned because I attempted to add a little on-topic, light-hearted humor to an otherwise pessimistic topic, it really struck home... that folks here just need to lighten up. I wasn't spamming, swearing, being offensive... just trying to have a little fun that pertained to the topic at hand =p

 

Things may be said that are completely wrong and out of line, it's true. But please, don't be so afraid of "drama" and the task that comes with cleaning it up that you go overboard. Discussions can get long and heated, angry emoticons may be used (noes!), and sometimes it really isn't as bad as it seems. I'm not trying to single out staff, admins, or even certain users... in fact plenty of mods deserve high fives... but since the fan base of Dragon Cave seems to so anxious and uptight by nature, don't add to it with defensive reasoning and the strict attitude of a babysitter who really hates kids.

 

Man, I hate being all serious-ness =P I can see the potential of the DC forum being a much happier and chill place, so that's why I offer this TL;DR post on a thought or two. I want to help, even if it's just adding a single opinion. Problems concerning DC will arise, but it'd be cool to have both staff and users get through it together.

[~!~]

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, not at all, but we have to accept that fact, and the fact that TJ probably won't just pump out the desired eggs when they're wanted.

There's the rub. Perhaps we do have to accept it, but perhaps we don't. It's up to TJ whether he is going to change things or not. I believe CD's original issue came not from the answer to the question of "do we have to accept it or not," but more the fact that there was no answer to be had. TJ's silence on the matter is the only reason anybody's complaining right now.

[RheaZen]

Everything Nine said. Just there.

[Mustangs44]

Oh god yes Nine. I totally agree that people need to lighten up here, not only the mods but the members too. I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to say this, but remember what you guys are slandering eachother about.

The value of pixels.

Shaped into dragons.

On the internet.

 

I think things would chill down if people were able to express themselves more openly instead of having to mob together in some kind of uprising against ratios, or how the site's run, or who it's being run by. Whatever we're arguing about.

[hazeh]

If the "wording fail" you were talking about was starting your sentence with "uh," as if you're talking to some sort of wacko, you missed it.

 

But seriously, I was just talking about their decline. Obviously they are supposed to be rare. I don't even particularly want a CB metallic. (Well, I do because I would like to have something worth trading for a good-lineaged Tinsel, but other than that, not really.) I wanted to use myself as an example because I've been using the same computer on the same internet connection with the same browser, so I can figure it's a change in the site that's caused me to see fewer metallics.

Whoa, hold on. No need to get defensive, I wasn't attacking anyone. This is exactly what I believe Nine was just talking about. The "Uh" in my statement was simply incredulous, because a good portion of your earlier post led me to believe that you were complaining that DC was going downhill merely because you thought CB metallics didn't exist any longer.

 

 

Anyways. I do believe the only things I would like improved are increased inbox sizes. I continually run out of room because I have so many messages I need to save, and I cannot save them directly onto my computer.

^^

[00n0b0dy]

I very much agree with nine.

 

Also I'd like to put in a word that, yes, I may have been warned for it in the past, but I agree with Cinn. It'd be great if TJ would occasionally give us some flopping answers. Even PMs frequently go unanswered, not just topics. Especially when it comes to questions like SOMETHING SEEMS BROKE, IS IT? We really don't just want to hear, Yes, I broke it, I'm sorry, let me fix it for you. We want to hear ANYTHING definitive. Because right now a lot of the questions I'm sharing with other users is- something, statistically speaking, has changed. Is it broken? Nope, it's fine. Does that mean that you changed something, or will things eventually right themselves again? Because I've stopped breeding my blacks and vines and stripes because right now it's not worth my time to get nothing. I'm not biting because last time I tried it killed about twenty eggs in a row before I stopped. I don't want to hear ITS BROKEN LET ME FIX. I just want to know if this is going to go back to how it was or not. Because then I can start seriously thinking about if it's worth playing without some of my favorite parts or if I should quit now. I don't like that on these forums I can't ask a question without fear of a warn, and if I do get brave enough to ask a question or support somebody else's, that I can never get a straight answer, even if the answer is "That's just how I want it to be from now on, deal with it."

Edited July 17, 2011 by 00n0b0dy

[Wookieinmashoo]

I'm just following the thread from the shadows but I really feel the need to throw my two cents in here because I've really had enough of comments like the bold line in general. Yes, TJ created the game but it has grown into something much larger then a school project or whatever it was. There is a huge user base and if TJ works it right he can turn a profit from the game through adds, which we already know cover the cost of running the site, merchandise, and donations. Yes, it's a free site but he should still be able to put a little jingle in his pocket. With that idea, DC is a business, no matter how minor of one it maybe and in the business world "The Customer Is Always Right." While nothing may ever change, TJ does have a duty to take his customer base's concerns seriously. Even if he isn't running DC as a profit he should look at it as good practice for how to run a business once he is out of school. Running a successful website will certainly look good on a resume. That alone should be reason enough for him to attempt to smooth the rough spots instead of allowing his "fans" to defend him with "It's TJ's site and he can run it anyway he wants to. If you don't like it you can just leave." That is a childish mentality that doesn't get anyone anywhere and that particular song and dance is so far past old it isn't funny.

 

This is something I've pointed out, but never mentioned in public. I'm not asking for things about the actual game to change, though Siliconrose has a very good point, a little communication can go a long way It would help the project run a little more smoothly. Even though I'm sure TJ is reading suggestions and considering if they would be good for the site, it seems that a lack of response from them is meaning TJ is ignoring them. It's pretty much human nature to want a reply to something even if it's a "no, this is no good for me". A good example of that is in people's signatures stating "Is it so hard to PM a no thanks to trade offers?". I got the same response from people on deviantart when I stopped replying to the nice comments; sometimes there really is nothing to say, but we can't see people's actions across the interwebs, therefore typing a response is necessary to get people to understand that yes, you are listening.

 

On what Silconrose said, I think it's pretty much true. The way ratios worked the worked fine when I first started, but with the growth of users, even a small portion of the site can throw things so far out of whack they won't operate properly again for months now. This isn't good and it only makes people frustrated. Lack of response from the game staff/admin/whatever will only make people mad. Maybe it's time for a new system. Maybe TJ already knows this and is working on it. If people don't know this they will still be mad.

[HeatherMarie]

I so completely agree with Nine. Looks like others do too!

 

I completely get that we aren't supposed to have rant/vent topics, that drama=bad, etc etc. But I've seen that mods are very quick to cloes (even temporarily) threads that are *not* at that level, because members need to "cool down" because maybe it *might* turn into drama? That really smacks of censoring and overmodding, to me.

 

This entire forum isn't going to crumble to pieces if one little thread happens to get a little heated. Being so quick to close threads just because it *might* lead to drama, I don't know about others, but I know that makes *me*, as a poster and participator in those threads, even *more* agitated, not less. Talking things out, having a discussion about our frustrations and confusions with the site, even if it does get a little heated sometimes, it's a *lot* better then being told to shut up about it, which is basically what it feels like when the topics get locked to "cool down".

 

edit (since others have ninjaed me): Yes, exactly!

If DragonCave is fine and the ratios are as they should be and we should all just stop complaining, fine. We will deal, or leave. But *no*, TJ does *not* answer PMs any better then he answers in-thread questions, at least not in my experience. And that's the biggest peeve right now, for a lot of us, is simply being ignored. If TJ came in and said "DragonCave is working exactly how I want it to, breeds/ratios/etc are exactly how I want", then okay. But he hasn't. He's completely ignored it, for a long time (how long has this breeding problem been going on? Months?

 

That's not fair to us. And I don't think it's drama or ranting to say that.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Marie19R

[Dr. Paine]

I so completely agree with Nine. Looks like others do too!

 

I completely get that we aren't supposed to have rant/vent topics, that drama=bad, etc etc. But I've seen that mods are very quick to cloes (even temporarily) threads that are *not* at that level, because members need to "cool down" because maybe it *might* turn into drama? That really smacks of censoring and overmodding, to me.

 

This entire forum isn't going to crumble to pieces if one little thread happens to get a little heated. Being so quick to close threads just because it *might* lead to drama, I don't know about others, but I know that makes *me*, as a poster and participator in those threads, even *more* agitated, not less. Talking things out, having a discussion about our frustrations and confusions with the site, even if it does get a little heated sometimes, it's a *lot* better then being told to shut up about it, which is basically what it feels like when the topics get locked to "cool down".

Very much agreed. While I can see the desire to head things off before it gets really bad, sometimes it does more damage than to just let people get it out and then deal with the fallout. The temporary closings usually do help some people cool off, but for others, it just gives them time to build up even more steam and just explode when it's open again.

 

And a little humor can go a very long way in preventing this, too. Or slight topic changes, something that will just take people's minds off of the original issue and let them revisit it in a more good natured light. This is one reason I do believe the rules of spam/off-topicness really need to be relaxed more.. a gentle poke back in the right direction after a while, fine, but unless there is absolutely no connection to the original topic, it shouldn't really be spam.