We want Forum Feedback!

[HeatherMarie]

Okay, here's my attempt at dissection, just concentrating on the spam part:

 

No Spam

No one likes spam, it clutters the board, so don't contribute to the problem. Messages that do not contribute to the topic or forum are considered spam and the poster will receive a warning.

 

.... Okay. Trying to look at that as a newbie, that tells me *nothing*. It doesn't tell me a thing about what kinds of posts are or are not allowed. So, how about actually saying a few things about what is not acceptable? No "look at my dragons" type of posts, no random "I like (blank), do you?", etc... Be mindful of the section you are posting in, ie don't post cave-related questions in General Discussion, questions/concerns about the game go in Help, etc... Stay on-topic in each thread, if a thread veers off-topic do not participate...

Edited May 7, 2011 by Marie19R

[Fiona]

That's a very good critique link, skinst. It says in slightly more detail what was said in this post (at the end of the post) but that isn't easy to find.

 

Now, if the two guides to spriting were combined and trimmed down to what was really needed to inform people how to get started (and still as a locked sticky) I think that would be helpful for Requests.

 

First, the rules for the forum (one dragon per thread, two threads per op, and about getting the threads mod approved) Then the critique quote, and/or a link to that page skinst linked above. After that, clear quidelines for sizes of sprites, and the (brief) comment about color limits as they are now. Then the guidelines for the different kinds of dragons, brief and to the point. (what's a drake on DC, what's a wyvern,etc) And also the best idea we have on kinds of dragons TJ won't use. (no animal hybrids, no enchanted objects, no props, etc.) Then give the egg cracking systems, and then link to some helpful tuts.

 

I may be missing something vital in that list, but something as brief as that, locked and stickied, so it's easy to find and link to, would help new people wanting to start spriting dragons.

[Obscure_Trash]

Thank you, guys. That's really, really helpful, skins. I will try to incorporate all these thoughts in our re-write of the rules and present that to TJ and see what he thinks.

 

Lemme get together with Lyz and Fini and see what we can do, Fi.

 

Thank you.

[Classycal]

From SockPuppet

When new users join, there is a big box of important links before they post a certain number of times. However, if people have a way to make this more clear/the site easier to navigate, even after the box goes away, please let us know. 

Somehow, this box hindered me rather than helped. I don’t know how to explain this since the box is gone, but until it was, I couldn’t find anything on the site, and I do mean anything. Searches wouldn’t work and I when I’d try to look at a topic, say under news for example, nothing happened. The only way I managed to see any topics at all was when my friend would email me links. When the box went away, it changed.

 

 

From SockPuppet

We do have a whole Help section and a topic on splash in Site Discussion. However, please note that you did get your warn removed. 

Yes, but the person that asked that question didn’t seem to know that, and neither did I. And, yes, I did get the warn removed, but what is interesting is that you removed it and told me that you did so because I’d changed my post. The funny thing is that I didn’t change it till after you sent me those PM’s. I found out about the warn and remove at the same time. And, I felt targeted because you had given me another warn which I can now understand (I still don’t really get the one you removed.) but didn’t then because the rules were not obvious because I had come to the topic through a link given me rather than finding it myself. And after that first warn you told me that, as a new member, it was my responsibility to know all the rules, everything in a pinned topic, and basically everything posted on the board about any subject before I posted anything. My gosh, there are pages and pages of rules. And thousands of posts. My eyes crossed trying to read them all (and I still haven’t read everything on the board and likely never will). It takes time to learn all those rules, and maybe some folks are speed readers and can read them all at once, but I am not a speed reader. And you have little kids on this board. Do you think they can actually get through all the rules? My point is that, as mods, you need to be kinder and gentler to new people. Someone who has had 1000’s of posts would understand the intricacies of the rules, but a newbie would not. And, I think I'm not the only newbie that has been devastated at getting a warn. It just isn't a nice way to help new people learn about the rules.

 

 

From skinst

FAQ is very thorough, but it's HUGE.

 

Very, very few people are going to read through all of that. It's incredibly overwhelming to newbies.

It’s actually quite intimidating.

 

 

Okay. Trying to look at that as a newbie, that tells me *nothing*. It doesn't tell me a thing about what kinds of posts are or are not allowed. 

Actually explaining what spam is would help, too. I think that most people only see this as that advertisement you got in your email that you didn’t want.

 

 

[Obscure_Trash]

I can't know how everyone gets to a topic or how much they actually know the forum (I actually read all the rules and sticky's over a few times before and after joining and before and after posting, but I know not everyone is like me), so modding based on that is virtually impossible. All I can do is try to make information available. I asked earlier if people would like me to repost the "this kind of post will be spam" message in completed topics that have gotten more comments. Fi was the only one to respond, though I asked about it twice, and from that I gathered it wasn't necessary or wanted or would help.

The warn was removed because as soon as I gave the warn, the post seemed to be changed. Therefore, I assumed you changed the post while I was warning you, and had missed the edit.

 

What would your suggestion on the box be, then?

Any suggestions how we can help explain navigation of the forum?

[HeatherMarie]

I assume you are talking about the Completed Requests section, Sock? I definitely think it would be helpful if that message was more obvious, whether by reposting it as the topic gains comments, or editing it into the OP.

 

I completely understand that mods can't know just how much of the forum a user has looked at, but I think it's reasonable to say that most users are not going to spend 30 minutes fighting with the Search function before posting a question. If there is a sticky about a specific topic, that's one thing, but to expect a user to hunt down every single instance of their topic just to see if the specific question has been asked before... Especially with the Search flood-control limit being so long, it's fairly unreasonable to expect that. So, if someone asks a question that has been asked before in some other part of the forum, maybe ease up a bit?

[RainDear]

When I got here, there was "Dragon Cave for Dummies". It was very informative, easy to read, easy to understand, and got one started. Being faced with all the FAQs and rules and other stuff you are expected to "know" before posting when all you really want to know is how to care for those 4 colorful eggs you just picked up is rather daunting. If something like the "Dragon Cave for Dummies" could be presented to newbies right at first, right in the Intro thread, then new members could get their eggs started, relax, feel more secure and start reading and absorbing all the other stuff without the pressure that their eggs "are going to die in 7 days". That is something that I think could help some with dealing with the large amount of information newbies are expected to know right at the first.

[dragon_mando]

Actually explaining what spam is would help, too.  I think that most people only see this as that advertisement you got in your email that you didn’t want.

Yes, giving a fuller definition of spam might be a good thing. I still don't post stuff I think might be helpful, or answer questions I want to answer, because even as someone that's been here for years I don't always see the fine line, so try to just avoid it altogether. How this would exactly be redefined, I don't know. Maybe something like

 

"Spam is anything that does not relate to the current topic or board, such as talking about pokemon in a topic about cats, posting anything not constructive criticism in Completed Dragon Requests such as "this is pretty", or [whatever else comes to mind]"

 

Edit1: I'm one of those people who's memory is like a sieve someone took a few loads of buckshot to. I have to reread the FAQs and rules almost constantly to remember them, and even skimming them over again every month or so, I'm not always solid on what is or isn't okay (which has been seen before, because something I thought was fine a couple times ended up being rulebreaking).

 

If something like the "Dragon Cave for Dummies" could be presented to newbies right at first, right in the Intro thread, then new members could get their eggs started, relax, feel more secure and start reading and absorbing all the other stuff without the pressure that their eggs "are going to die in 7 days".

 

Yes.

Edited May 7, 2011 by dragon_mando

[Obscure_Trash]

If you guys would like to write up a new DragCave for Dummies, I'd love to see. :3

[Classycal]

From SockPuppet

I can't know how everyone gets to a topic or how much they actually know the forum (I actually read all the rules and sticky's over a few times before and after joining and before and after posting, but I know not everyone is like me), so modding based on that is virtually impossible.

I didn’t suggest that you should be a mind reader, Sock. What I suggested was easing up on new folks. And easing up when the lines are "fuzzy" would be good, too.

 

 

From SockPuppet

I asked earlier if people would like me to repost the "this kind of post will be spam" message in completed topics that have gotten more comments. 

I don’t remember seeing that, but I do think it would be a good idea. By the way, if a topic is “completed” then why isn’t it closed to prevent people from posting? (I know some topics are closed.)

 

 

From SockPuppet

What would your suggestion on the box be, then?

Without being able to see that box, I couldn’t make a comment on it. Perhaps you could give me a link to see the page as it looks with the box and then I could comment.

 

 

I do like the idea for Drag Cave for dummies or some such. And did you know there is not a link to the Cave (the cave not the forum) help page on the main page of Dragon Cave? You have to actually type in help from dragcave.net - ie: dragcave.net/help. Perhaps this might be the Dummy page that raindear spoke of? Perhaps you could ask TJ to add a link on the Cave page?

 

 

From Marie19R

If there is a sticky about a specific topic, that's one thing, but to expect a user to hunt down every single instance of their topic just to see if the specific question has been asked before... Especially with the Search flood-control limit being so long, it's fairly unreasonable to expect that.

If, as I see on other forums, the search actually led to a specific post, it would be much easier. Instead you are lead to a topic that might have 1000’s of answers, but I don’t know how feasible that is. I do know that using the search function doesn’t usually lead me to an answer.

 

[Admiral_Craymen]

I got a warn for something I didn't even consider spam. On any other forum, it wouldn't have been considered spamming. I was very upset and I wanted to leave the forums. I still feel upset about it and I'm afraid I might accidentally spam again. I have never gotten a warning on any forum before and I've been using forums since I was 17, maybe a few years before, too.

[HeatherMarie]

Ganondorf, that's why we are asking that "spam" be clarified, so we know exactly what we aren't allowed to post.

 

Did you read the Board Rules and the stickies before you posted your "spam"? Did you see any rule or anything that hinted that your post might not be welcome? Being on other forums doesn't mean anything, because all forums have different rules and you are expected to follow the rules in this forum, not rules as they are on some other forum. But, like we are saying, the rules here are vague and confusing.

[Admiral_Craymen]

I read the rules to every forum I joined before I post. I don't see how what I did was spam, but I think differently than most people.

[Obscure_Trash]

Topics in the completed section aren't closed so that if there's still an anatomy problem or such, it can be fixed.

I didn't think about adding that line to the first post. With eight pages of topics in DR, I'm not going to go back and do so, but that's a good idea for the future. If OPs would like to go edit that into their completed topics, that would be helpful, too.

 

If you log out of the forum, you'll see the box pop up again.

 

~

 

Alright, this thread is not for complaining about warns. If you'd like to bring up a warn to help make a suggestion about the forum, feel free to do so. However, just coming on here to complain about getting a warn isn't really feedback and it isn't a suggestion.

 

I've seen a few people do this throughout the thread and if this starts to turn out like the GD sticky, I'll close this thread. I would love feedback and suggestions and what we can change or what we shouldn't change.

 

I'm actually working on a few of the earlier suggestions, now, as well as having implemented a few of the even earlier ones already. But complaining doesn't help me. Sorry.

[purpledragonclaw]

Since Sock is open to the idea of a DragCave for Dummies list, would anyone be interested in putting one together?

[Obscure_Trash]

I told this to purpledragonclaw via PM, but I'll go ahead and say it publicly here. If you guys want to use this thread, PM, e-mail, IRC, whatever to come up with another DragCave for Dummies, I'll consult the other mods about pinning it in introductions, unless users would like to take on the task of making sure it gets posted in each introduction or PM'd to each new user. :3

 

Alright, I overhauled both the Spriting and DR stickys in Dragon Requests. They contain the most important info right at the beginning. The DR Guide is now more condensed. The Spriting info is re-ordered and old info that no longer relates has been taken out and there are some more tutorials and a guide on how to sprite in there. How does it look?

[RheaZen]

The rehaul looks good, though I know that some of the stuff I contributed needs to be fixed (ex. I found some mention of "don't make duplicates"). The mods can do that or I can do it. Also, I don't mind that you're using the Duliticola as an example, but the name is in fact related to the dragon since they're based off of trilobite beetles and not just trilobites.

[Obscure_Trash]

Odarn it. Didn't realize that. Sorry. x3

Will go recheck for stuff I missed in my initial overview of that topic.

[Fiona]

I like the DR overhaul too. I'd need to read it again more carefully to see if there are any other suggestions I have for it, but overall I think it's organized better. There's still a ton of stuff in it that new people wanting to sprite need to read, but I have no suggestions for reducing that, even though it's not as brief as I'd hoped it could be.

[Obscure_Trash]

Lyz is actually going to help me in trying to reduce that, so hopefully we can get that shortened a bit. ^^

[Classycal]

From SockPuppet

Topics in the completed section aren't closed so that if there's still an anatomy problem or such, it can be fixed. 

Thank you for explaining. This makes sense since I’ve seen a dragon in the cave that looks a little “wonky”. To protect the artist, I won’t give more specifics.

 

 

Alright, I overhauled both the Spriting and DR stickys in Dragon Requests.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I haven’t read either version, but I know it took a lot of work. Maybe if I ever decide to take up drawing again, I’ll read it. =}

 

[Lalasa]

I would like to submit a dragon request, but I'm afraid to duplicate. I tried to search, but it came up with 30 pages of nonrelated dragons. Searching has always been hard for me. Is there a way you could make it more specific to the key words? Or somewhat easier to use? (all the nonrelated stuff confuzzels me) Thanks !

 

~Lalasa

 

P.S. I know I'm lazy, but I'm not about to look in 30 pages of nonrelated stuff just to put up a request

[Obscure_Trash]

Dragon Requests Guide:

 

Q: I had an idea, but I did some searching and saw that it’s taken. Should I just give up on it?

A: TJ himself has told us that he doesn’t mind duplicates. It can inspire competition and give some choices for TJ to pick what the best for DC is. However, if your idea is for a dragon in cave it’s a different story. Dragons in cave are already in cave, creating an idea based off of one of them won’t inspire any competition and won’t get into cave because it’s already in cave, so also won’t be accepted. Names, however, are on a first come, first serve basis, simply because it's better for the progress and completed list.

 

If your name is a duplicate and we realize it, we'll let you know. :3

 

We have a guide for search written up here: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=4319290 :3

Edited May 10, 2011 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Lalasa]

Thanks Socky, this should make searching less difficult~! (I hope...)

[Wookieinmashoo]

Okay, I recently read a journal on DA about sprite artists for the site and how they should be recognized and instead of making a response there, I'm putting it here.

 

One of the things brought up was about giving the artists more recognition. I guess I would be the worse person to ask about that. It seems many of the artist would like more recognition some how. I don't know how this would be possible while still maintaining good relations between non in cave artists. Personally, the text at the bottom of the main cave stating credits is good enough for me. I wouldn't want to be singled out on the forums and made to be different in any way. I understand the mods have colored names because that helps people find help when they deed it. It especially helps people who are new or don't frequent the forums much. I'm not saying the artists are not important people, in fact DC wouldn't exist without them, but I am personally against any changes for myself. One of my fears if if one of my sprites did get released, I would then have to be singled out and made to appear different than the rest of the user base. I don't want to be different though. I don't know if any non in cave artist feel the same though, so my point is moot. I also don't know how the current in cave artists would feel about more or less recognition since I don't interact with any; I try to leave them alone as much as possible.

 

One of the other questions brought up was about the DC mods, which I am not answering in public, but I do have opinions on it.

 

As for the forums themselves, pretty much what other people have been mentioning: information. What is spam? What is considered PG-13? Is each section treated differently? If so, then how? Just some more clear cut guidelines would be nice.

I've never had any problems with the friendliness of the forums except in one area, which is Suggestions. Yep, right here. I used to avoid this place like the plague because because I've some really stiff critics here and just chose to avoid the area altogether. I even refrained from posting in threads when I had an idea or a comment, because I was afraid of being torn down. Well, my phobia is cured, but I'm not sure how some other people feel about the section. One thing I have noticed all over the forums though is that hostility in any form is infectious. It tends to rub off on people. So one person having a bad day could rub off on another person who in turn would become hostile, even for one post, and spread it to another. It's a vicious cycle and I've seen it going on in other communities. I guess asking others to each be just a little nicer is impossible, because we are all human and all make mistakes. Half the time I can't even realize when I make a mistake and even months later I can't even figure out how something was a mistake. I have a bad way of communicating half the time and I've had trouble improving.

 

As for cleanliness, I'm all for it. Site Discussions has 30 pages of posts, many of the topics are old and irrelevant anymore. A good cleaning of topics that have had no posts in say, 6 months, would help in just keeping things cleaned up. Other areas get posts deleted after so little interest, so why not SD? I do think DR could also use some cleaning and I know Sock and some others are working on something.

 

The IRC was nice at first for me, but I'm really starting to avoid it, unless I need to be there for some reason. I feel the place is a bit unfriendly and I really couldn't tell why. I guess the place just overwhelms me. Things go too fast, and I can't read or type fast myself, so I quickly get discouraged and confused.