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Okay, I recently read a journal on DA about sprite artists for the site and how they should be recognized and instead of making a response there, I'm putting it here.

 

One of the things brought up was about giving the artists more recognition. I guess I would be the worse person to ask about that. It seems many of the artist would like more recognition some how. I don't know how this would be possible while still maintaining good relations between non in cave artists. Personally, the text at the bottom of the main cave stating credits is good enough for me. I wouldn't want to be singled out on the forums and made to be different in any way. I understand the mods have colored names because that helps people find help when they deed it. It especially helps people who are new or don't frequent the forums much. I'm not saying the artists are not important people, in fact DC wouldn't exist without them, but I am personally against any changes for myself. One of my fears if if one of my sprites did get released, I would then have to be singled out and made to appear different than the rest of the user base. I don't want to be different though. I don't know if any non in cave artist feel the same though, so my point is moot. I also don't know how the current in cave artists would feel about more or less recognition since I don't interact with any; I try to leave them alone as much as possible.

 

One of the other questions brought up was about the DC mods, which I am not answering in public, but I do have opinions on it.

 

As for the forums themselves, pretty much what other people have been mentioning: information. What is spam? What is considered PG-13? Is each section treated differently? If so, then how? Just some more clear cut guidelines would be nice.

I've never had any problems with the friendliness of the forums except in one area, which is Suggestions. Yep, right here. I used to avoid this place like the plague because because I've some really stiff critics here and just chose to avoid the area altogether. I even refrained from posting in threads when I had an idea or a comment, because I was afraid of being torn down. Well, my phobia is cured, but I'm not sure how some other people feel about the section. One thing I have noticed all over the forums though is that hostility in any form is infectious. It tends to rub off on people. So one person having a bad day could rub off on another person who in turn would become hostile, even for one post, and spread it to another. It's a vicious cycle and I've seen it going on in other communities. I guess asking others to each be just a little nicer is impossible, because we are all human and all make mistakes. Half the time I can't even realize when I make a mistake and even months later I can't even figure out how something was a mistake. I have a bad way of communicating half the time and I've had trouble improving.

 

As for cleanliness, I'm all for it. Site Discussions has 30 pages of posts, many of the topics are old and irrelevant anymore. A good cleaning of topics that have had no posts in say, 6 months, would help in just keeping things cleaned up. Other areas get posts deleted after so little interest, so why not SD? I do think DR could also use some cleaning and I know Sock and some others are working on something.

 

The IRC was nice at first for me, but I'm really starting to avoid it, unless I need to be there for some reason. I feel the place is a bit unfriendly and I really couldn't tell why. I guess the place just overwhelms me. Things go too fast, and I can't read or type fast myself, so I quickly get discouraged and confused.

Just so you know SD has 14 pages. We keep topics a little longer perhaps, but consider how many times do we need a topic on 'What is your favorite egg'. Other topics have a lot of information we mods can refer members to when questions are asked.

 

IMO, there is not a lot of topics that need cleaned from SD.

 

If you have any questions, always feel free to pm a mod. If you do not feel the mod answers your question, contact another mod or pm TJ09.

 

As far as what is posted on a members DA account, I do not have much of a comment.

Any member that has issues with DC, should perhaps discuss it on DC.

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Just so you know SD has 14 pages. We keep topics a little longer perhaps, but consider how many times do we need a topic on 'What is your favorite egg'. Other topics have a lot of information we mods can refer members to when questions are asked.

 

IMO, there is not a lot of topics that need cleaned from SD.

 

If you have any questions, always feel free to pm a mod. If you do not feel the mod answers your question, contact another mod or pm TJ09.

 

As far as what is posted on a members DA account, I do not have much of a comment.

Any member that has issues with DC, should perhaps discuss it on DC.

Sorry, I meant General Discussion, not site discussion...I have no idea how I got the two mixed up. Looks like it has recently been cleared out too, because I remember there being at least 30 pages, sorry about that. And there were no issues stated on the journal, just a bunch of questions and asking for feedback, which I posted here instead since it's pretty much the same thing in asking opinions about the forums. The "issues" I read were pretty much comments from the forums and from other places. These issues only centered around concerns for the artists. There are also some concerns that I will never post about and never bring up with a mod because they're just my opinions.

Edited by Wookieinmashoo

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Psychic. :3 The mods were actually discussing about how large GD was and how inhibiting it was to people who were doing searches before starting new topics, so a bit of cleaning was done.

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One thing that I've noticed is that this forum is super strict on posting. For example, if you post a question that has already been answered at some point in time or another, a moderator replies to the thread, posts a link and tells you to search before posting. I've had that happen to me, and I have tried to search prior and I have read sticky threads. But in the end had to post my questions.

 

Not everyone is great at searching forums, especially for things that they don't know about and are seeking help with.

 

I can tell you from my own experience that it makes the poster feel not only stupid, but bad, and when you are new to the forum, you feel that you don't want to come back.

 

Another case in point was a thread I created about the site being down. Posts were deleted and people were told that if they post in that thread again that they would get a warning. I think that is rather harsh. When the site is down, people who like this place want to come and talk about it. Gagging them is rather mean, especially when it comes with a statement that they will get a warning if they dare to post again.

 

I realize that the idea was to allow for people to easily find any updates, but my initial post was being edited with the updates, so I didn't see a need to gag people and prevent them from talking with each other while the site was down.

Edited by Natalie_ca

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We have a search guide in the FAQ, if that may be of some use to you. Otherwise, this is why mods provide links when they close topics. Not to make you feel bad, but to help guide you to the right topic.

 

~

 

I have run threads like that many ways. One is to just let the thread run on its own. One is to let it run on its own, update the first post, and post with an update. One is to keep the first post updated, post updates, and not let users post unless they have an update.

 

The last one works the best.

 

Users who have seen the topic check the last posts for updates. users who have not seen the thread check the first post for updates. Not doing one or another leaves out a chunk of users. Allowing the discussion to run its own means that the thread gathers post after post of people re-stating the problem or asking when it will be fixed. When updates are posted, they are quickly buried pages back and then you have people continually repeating the same questions and same answers.

 

If it's determined a thread in SD should be allowed for posts of "the site is down" and "this sucks", then that is fine, but allowing it in help only buries the answers and clogs up the thread. Mayhaps we could create a #downtime or #dcproblem thread in IRC for people to go to and post about the site being down in there.

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One thing that I've noticed is that this forum is super strict on posting. For example, if you post a question that has already been answered at some point in time or another, a moderator replies to the thread, posts a link and tells you to search before posting. I've had that happen to me, and I have tried to search prior and I have read sticky threads. But in the end had to post my questions.

 

Not everyone is great at searching forums, especially for things that they don't know about and are seeking help with.

 

Just adding a little on this topic... This is the main reason why, when I have a question, no matter what kind, I ask it in the "Tiny Little Questions" help thread. Because I don't want to spend 30 minutes searching for a topic, then make a topic, then have it closed as a duplicate. Which is what I've seen happen waaay too many times. Seriously, it's become past the point of ridiculous. People post a new topic, with a disclaimer that they searched and searched and couldn't find anything about that specific question, and two posts later it's closed as a duplicate.

 

I've seen two things specifically that add to this problem: The search flood-filter is a big one, because I don't know many users who are willing to search for a good 30+ minutes, waiting after each unsuccessful search for that stupid flood filter to go off. I've timed it before and I spent almost 20 minutes (I think it was 18, actually) searching, then waiting, then searching... And still no accurate results. The other problem I've seen is that sometimes questions or topics will be closed as a "duplicate", but the topics linked to are *not* exactly the same. Which leaves the newbie/poster confused and feeling stiffled, and the question unanswered.

 

I've seen multiple times in this thread that it's not recommended to post complaints with no suggestions, so I'm going to suggest that mods not be so close-happy on "duplicate" topics. Is the topic *really* the exact same as the one you are linking to? Is the linked topic really old, and so possibly no longer applies or is out of date? Or maybe, just maybe, you can let a duplicate topic play out a little bit, because is it really so *horrible* for two of the same questions to be asked, if two different people have the problem and are wanting specific answers that may be different?

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Have we got that clarification for PG-13 for GD worked out yet? I was vaugley reading over the clarification of rules section there, and realised we've been asking for over 9months now without an actual repsonse.

 

Really, guys, we need this. If you can't all get together to talk about it in person would you do it via a thread in your Mods section please? I could have conceieved and borne a child in the time we've been waiting.

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Well, I'm sure this suggestion popped up somewhere in this thread already, but I'd like to mention it again due to a recent case that really irks me. It's about closing topics:

 

Please don't close active discussion topics just because they are answered if the facts don't support the answer. (In case you wonder, I'm talking about the thread about vampire bites that has been closed rather recently.) It feels like people are stopped from discussing an uncomfortable topic, and thus leaves a bad taste behind.

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We closed several topics, that all had the same discussions going on. We also provided a link to one topic to allow the discussion to continue and reopened a poll on the subject.

 

~If it would help, I can move the last page of posts to the topic I linked?~

Edited by _Z_

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It's a little confusing. If someone reads the open thread it's exactly the opposite of what was being discussed for the last week. And there is no implication such a discussion is even happening farther down the thread so, it's a bit disjointed and weird. Why not close the dead one and leave the active one open? It seems like the one that was left open was purely a choice made for the thread title. In which case, the OP for the active one is probably around at least, could always request they change it. Not sure we can update the first post for the dead one to at least explain the conversation has shifted 180.

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Have we got that clarification for PG-13 for GD worked out yet? I was vaugley reading over the clarification of rules section there, and realised we've been asking for over 9months now without an actual repsonse.

 

Really, guys, we need this. If you can't all get together to talk about it in person would you do it via a thread in your Mods section please? I could have conceieved and borne a child in the time we've been waiting.

This, really. C'mon guys, straight answer please.

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The GD guidelines were updated. I know it's not what you guys asked for, but:

 

It is impossible to lay down a set of guidelines to cover every case. Mods, like with many other calls on the forum, will have to use their own judgment, even if they gather input before deciding something.

 

But if you guys would prefer a strict set of regulations, I'll start the list and ask for other mods opinions. I'll try and get that updated within the next few days for you. Thanks for the feedback. :3

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The GD guidelines were updated. I know it's not what you guys asked for, but:

 

It is impossible to lay down a set of guidelines to cover every case. Mods, like with many other calls on the forum, will have to use their own judgment, even if they gather input before deciding something.

 

But if you guys would prefer a strict set of regulations, I'll start the list and ask for other mods opinions. I'll try and get that updated within the next few days for you. Thanks for the feedback. :3

Well it would have been nice if anyone had made it a bit more obvious that they'd done that. I mean, really, editing a locked sticky isn't exactly telling everyone "hey, things are a little clearer now" is it? Heck I got to this thread from that one and I confess I completely failed to noticed the edit dry.gif

 

What we'd like are rules that aren't open to so much interpretation by the mods. For instance one mod taking the

Keep it PG-13

This means no ****ography, extreme violence, or even swearing. Attempts to bypass the censor will get you warned.

rule to mean that even discussing the *existence* of ****ography, and it's effect on relationships, was banned: where many of us (I still think rightly) assumed the it refered to ****ographic images and not to a discussion of the ethics.

 

That's the kind of thing we need cleared up. Because as long as there's ambiguity about what can/can't be discussed then you are going to get instances of warns being handed out to poeple who had no idea that they were rule breaking - and possibly disagree with the mod's interpretation that they were rule-breaking in the first place.

 

Failing that I'd at least like to feel I had the ability to question the mods intepretation of whichever rule it is - rather than feeling like I'd been threatened, and would simply be slapped with more warns if I ahd the temerity to disagree. As it is if you have a problem you are expected to talk to the mod you have a problem with - whereas it would be much better to be able to call in a second mod to either uphold the decision or say "Actualy, you were a bit harsh here.".

Edited by TikindiDragon

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So completely agree with TikindiDragon.

 

As I've said in the past, mods often seem very quick to close threads and give warns, and yet not so much about *explaining* things. It would be nice if there was more of an explanaton for why some topics get closed, instead of just a copy/pasted generic "use search" type of message.

 

And often threads are closed when there really is no rule against them, like TikindiDragon mentioned. Is simply talking about the existance of ****ography against the rules? If that's the case, it should be *in* the rules. If not, mods need to lighten up.

 

I've also seen threads in the past get closed simply because "we don't want to start drama" or somesuch, even though there was no drama in the thread at that point. I can't point to specific examples, but I remember it happening more then once (like the whole "don't talk about the Frills" type of thing...). Which really smacks of abuse-of-power, to me.

 

What exactly *can* we talk about without fear of getting our topic closed? Just saying "Keep it PG-13

This means no ****ography, extreme violence, or even swearing" doesn't really cover much and it certainly doesn't cover the majority of threads being closed.

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It was actually an accident that the edit wasn't posted about - and it was posted about quite a while before the thread was closed. I was waiting for some opinions from people, then life came up and bit me and several other mods, and no one ever had the time to remember to post about the edit. I apologize. Rest assured, we're coming up with a general no-no list now.

 

~

 

Examples on where topics was closed without explanation? (<-- this was open to anybody, I was wondering about specific examples people may have had in mind)

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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I've also seen threads in the past get closed simply because "we don't want to start drama" or somesuch, even though there was no drama in the thread at that point. I can't point to specific examples, but I remember it happening more then once (like the whole "don't talk about the Frills" type of thing...). Which really smacks of abuse-of-power, to me.

Did you never pay attention to the Frill drama, the Dove drama, the Teleport debates, the Ascension threads?

 

98% of it all was people whining about one thing or another. Excuse us for not wanting to repeat all of that every so often when it will accomplish nothing. There are some topics that are just dead ends and don't need to be brought up.

 

If it's abuse of power to cut off a headache-inducing, weary, repetitive cycle of spam, then count me with the power-abusers.

 

 

Failing that I'd at least like to feel I had the ability to question the mods intepretation of whichever rule it is - rather than feeling like I'd been threatened, and would simply be slapped with more warns if I ahd the temerity to disagree.

 

If a thread gets closed, you CAN ask why. The closing message in /every/ mod lock says you can PM for more information. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone refusing to answer why.

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Did you never pay attention to the Frill drama, the Dove drama, the Teleport debates, the Ascension threads?

 

98% of it all was people whining about one thing or another. Excuse us for not wanting to repeat all of that every so often when it will accomplish nothing. There are some topics that are just dead ends and don't need to be brought up.

 

If it's abuse of power to cut off a headache-inducing, weary, repetitive cycle of spam, then count me with the power-abusers.

I still think we should be allowed to have a section of the forum roped off for mature people who won't cause a lot of spam or drama.

 

If some members of the forums need to be treated like children when issues as important as the Frills, Dove's thing, or whatever else are involved, so be it. I think, however, that there are plenty of users who could take such issues without causing problems, or could even be helpful in the situation, even though they aren't mods or artists.

 

Or, even better: ban the drama-causing players. They're the ones causing the problems. I don't see why the whole class has to be denied recess because of one kid's misbehavior.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't call it abuse of power. Maybe just misuse of power.

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I still think we should be allowed to have a section of the forum roped off for mature people who won't cause a lot of spam or drama.

 

If some members of the forums need to be treated like children when issues as important as the Frills, Dove's thing, or whatever else are involved, so be it. I think, however, that there are plenty of users who could take such issues without causing problems, or could even be helpful in the situation, even though they aren't mods or artists.

 

Or, even better: ban the drama-causing players. They're the ones causing the problems. I don't see why the whole class has to be denied recess because of one kid's misbehavior.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't call it abuse of power. Maybe just misuse of power.

I'm sorry. I feel that I have to take the moderators' side on this one. Even normally well-behaved, reasonable members can behave badly when tempers flare. I have seen it many times. People I have developed a measure of respect for (and myself) get heated and behave badly. There is no way to predict reliably who should (not) be allowed to discuss a subject like those cited. I have to say, also, that I find it badly behaved to open one thread after another to discuss a subject while the mods are closing them for the drama they have already caused. We sometimes like to think that if we can express our views, we can have an effect on a decision, but often the decision has been made, and nothing we can say will make any difference, so we might just as well accept this and let it go.

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If a thread gets closed, you CAN ask why. The closing message in /every/ mod lock says you can PM for more information. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone refusing to answer why.

It's not that we're not being told why. That's not a problem. The problem is when you want to disagree with the why. PMing the Mod that closed the topic isn't going to make a difference to that - they wouldn't have closed it (or shut down a discussion within an open thread with the threat of warns) if they didn't think they were right. PMing them isn't going to change that - which is why I'd really rather like to be able to PM a *different* Mod, and have that Mod review the decision.

 

Basic management principles. If you disagree with something a manager has done you don't go to the manager you disagree with to complain about it - you go to the next person up. Who really *should* listen, where all that currently happens here is you get referred back to the person that made the original decision.

 

Incidently it's Kiffren's post here that started all these requests for clarification of PG13 rules anyway. Many of us were actualy very unhappy about it. I was warned for censor evasion (which I totaly accept) but censor evasion formed only 1/4 of the things in the warn blub (which I'm sure any Mods on here can see). This is the kind of thing many of us have been having a problem with - and certainly in this instance PMing Kiffren wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. It's things like *this* that make me want to be able to go to a third party.

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Basic management principles. If you disagree with something a manager has done you don't go to the manager you disagree with to complain about it - you go to the next person up. Who really *should* listen, where all that currently happens here is you get referred back to the person that made the original decision.

 

Incidently it's Kiffren's post here that started all these requests for clarification of PG13 rules anyway. Many of us were actualy very unhappy about it. I was warned for censor evasion (which I totaly accept) but censor evasion formed only 1/4 of the things in the warn blub (which I'm sure any Mods on here can see). This is the kind of thing many of us have been having a problem with - and certainly in this instance PMing Kiffren wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. It's things like *this* that make me want to be able to go to a third party.

This sounds like the mods need mods. Or perhaps that you'd like the Teej himself to be more accessible. I mean, I'd like that too, but I don't think it'll happen...

 

I sort of think TJ should get some kind of partner, associate... someone from real life who has the same level of authority as he does over DC who can share his workload. Although, from my limited experience working with programmers, that may not be entirely feasible.

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This sounds like the mods need mods. Or perhaps that you'd like the Teej himself to be more accessible. I mean, I'd like that too, but I don't think it'll happen...

 

I sort of think TJ should get some kind of partner, associate... someone from real life who has the same level of authority as he does over DC who can share his workload. Although, from my limited experience working with programmers, that may not be entirely feasible.

I've often thought it wouldn't be a bad idea for there to be more forum admins-- TJ would still have responsibility for the Cave itself, but there could be more help/supervision on the forums for the house-keepy stuff. Obviously there's only one person who knows if that'd ever fly, but *shrugs*

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I still think we should be allowed to have a section of the forum roped off for mature people who won't cause a lot of spam or drama.

 

If some members of the forums need to be treated like children when issues as important as the Frills, Dove's thing, or whatever else are involved, so be it. I think, however, that there are plenty of users who could take such issues without causing problems, or could even be helpful in the situation, even though they aren't mods or artists.

 

Or, even better: ban the drama-causing players. They're the ones causing the problems. I don't see why the whole class has to be denied recess because of one kid's misbehavior.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't call it abuse of power. Maybe just misuse of power.

I can see where the mods are coming from with this. Even though only a few people cause trouble, the best way to prevent a recurrence of bad behavior is to make a general rule that applies to everyone. It will make some unhappy, especially those not guilty of perpetrating the behavior, but it is better for overall peace to have one standard.

 

If there was a section of the forum where only "mature people" could be, that would open up a lot of drama as members wonder what warrants maturity, who can and can't get in, etc. The forum should be accessible to anyone and everyone willing to follow the rules, and part of what this thread is about is trying to make the rules as clear as possible.

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Did you never pay attention to the Frill drama, the Dove drama, the Teleport debates, the Ascension threads?

 

98% of it all was people whining about one thing or another. Excuse us for not wanting to repeat all of that every so often when it will accomplish nothing. There are some topics that are just dead ends and don't need to be brought up.

 

If it's abuse of power to cut off a headache-inducing, weary, repetitive cycle of spam, then count me with the power-abusers.

I'm well aware of the whining that went on with that, thank you. I also saw first-hand the throat-jumping that went on *after* all the drama calmed down, whenever anyone who didn't know better would even mention Frills. There is *no* rule spelled out on this forum saying "don't talk about Frills", so to go "that's something we don't discuss" (and I *did* see that!) is very frustrating. If we aren't supposed to talk about a specific subject, and we will get scolded for doing so, then it needs to be in the rules. Or lighten up a bit.

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I'm well aware of the whining that went on with that, thank you. I also saw first-hand the throat-jumping that went on *after* all the drama calmed down, whenever anyone who didn't know better would even mention Frills. There is *no* rule spelled out on this forum saying "don't talk about Frills", so to go "that's something we don't discuss" (and I *did* see that!) is very frustrating. If we aren't supposed to talk about a specific subject, and we will get scolded for doing so, then it needs to be in the rules. Or lighten up a bit.

Because that would be the best way to make people ask about them. rolleyes.gif

 

Do you really need a rule for every little thing ever?

 

Can you not reasonably infer that something that was surrounded by a ton of drama and high emotions that will not change should not be mentioned, because mentioning it will only bring back those same pointless arguments?

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Because that would be the best way to make people ask about them. rolleyes.gif

 

Do you really need a rule for every little thing ever?

 

Can you not reasonably infer that something that was surrounded by a ton of drama and high emotions that will not change should not be mentioned, because mentioning it will only bring back those same pointless arguments?

And yet people still ask because they don't know what happened. Someone might assume that it was something that happened far enough in the past that there isn't any new chatter about it, not that it is a forbidden topic.

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