Trader's Canyon

[Thuban]

Not a big fan of fluctuating prices - I'd rather know what I'm saving up to, and that I can still buy what I want once I have the points. Having the prize skyrocket just days before I'm finally there would be very frustrating, and IMO needlessly complicated.

(Also, I don't think people would use the store to buy underpopulated breeds, anyway - the ratios make these fairly easy to catch anyway, without using points. So I see no reason for fluctuating prices.)

 

Having to save one year for a CB prize and nothing else seems totally fine with me, and IMO would limit them enough. And if someone would rather spend 6 years getting 6 CB silver shimmers instead of 6 different prizes, that should be fine - DC is all about "how you play is up to you", after all.

Having to save 1.5 years or so for a CB hybrid should keep these really rare, too.

 

However, if "1 per breed and color" is the only way we can get CB prizes into the store at all, then I guess that's better than not getting them at all.

 

But TJ has repeatedly stated that in Suggestions, people should not try to second-guess him but state what they think would be good. He gets final vote what to implement anyway.

 

So I'm stating that very high prices are all the limits that I think are needed for CB Prices and CB hybrids (which would also make things less complicated than specific limits, which is good), and I'd really really want them to be obtainable through the store (prices more than hybrids, though).

 

I also agree that anything got from the store should be definitely untradeable and hopefully sickness-protected.

Heres the thing though, prices could be set up so that they are always say... 10 months of points per prize.. but having the prices drop sometimes is no different than a sale in your local store. If you assume the price is always going to be a baseline of 10 months, but the price drops to 8 months, are you really going to complain? If it drops to 6 months? Its not going to go HIGHER without good reason, but if the price drops, I really dont see why its a problem. It just means that there is a chance you will get it cheaper than normal, sometimes, for some reason or other.

 

Just having to save the points up is limiting enough in my book, but for some reason people want these things to be almost impossible to collect all of.

[Lastalda]

To me, fluctuating means prices move both ways around the baseline, not just downward. Judging from our experience from the ratios, we'd probably never know where the baseline/min/max for each item was, which I dislike.

Also, as I said before, I'm for keeping things as simple as possible.

 

To me, fluctuating prizes sound like a needless complication of an otherwise great concept.

 

I'd love the ability to save up to CB prizes etc. I don't need an incentive of constantly checking the store hoping to get them at a "bargain prize".

Also, I imagine this might lead to whining and drama.

 

And for what? So you can hopefully get that cool thing cheaper than others (that's the hope, right? Why else would you want the prize to fluctuate? So you can pay more?). Hooray for you, sucks for everyone else who bought them a few days before the sale came around, possibly souring their joy at finally having gotten that cool thing they were dreaming about.

 

Why not let everyone buy at the same price and just be happy they finally got it, knowing contentedly that everyone else who invested the same amount of time could have done the same, so no jealousy at all?

 

Sorry, I just don't see the benefit of fluctuating prizes.

(Not that I would deny my support to a store if it came with fluctuating prices. (Almost) any store is better than no store. But I remain at less complicated = better.)

[Thuban]

If the price is around 8-10 months, then im happy. They dont /have/ to move in price. But in a few years, I could easily see the price going down, as the userbase grows, and people will complain then as well

 

I still wonder if its possible to do this store, without them counting against ratios. If they are going to be tied to ratios, then breeds would have to go through periods when thy don't show up as an option (because it wouldnt make sense to have GWs available, if for some reason they are actually in a drought). Which is something people took issue with early into the thread.

 

[stagazer_7]

I'm not sure how ratios work exactly, but in cases of in-Cave dragons I can see them becoming scarce during droughts - I would would prefer it that their prices simply rose instead, but I would accept it. I would prefer fixed prices and dragons being available all the time even more.

 

In case of non-Cave dragons, such as Prizes and Hybrids I think they should be available all year round - I highly doubt that a couple of CB's some players manage to save up for each year will really have a big impact on breeding ratios, not when dozens of Prizes are bred every day now and have had little to no impact on them (at least not that I've noticed - yeah, I have some stubborn pairs, but most have been breeding decently since I got my first Tinsel a few years back).

Edited January 23, 2016 by stagazer_7

[egwenna]

If the price is around 8-10 months, then im happy. They dont /have/ to move in price. But in a few years, I could easily see the price going down, as the userbase grows, and people will complain then as well

 

I still wonder if its possible to do this store, without them counting against ratios. If they are going to be tied to ratios, then breeds would have to go through periods when thy don't show up as an option (because it wouldnt make sense to have GWs available, if for some reason they are actually in a drought). Which is something people took issue with early into the thread.

I think having them unavailable during a drought or really expensive both make sense. It's how markets work. If it's running out in one place, it's really expensive before they run out in others.

 

Since ND aren't part of the HM prize options, I like that they aren't part of this. But, I might be biased.

 

As far as fluctuating prizes... I kind of like the idea, it's like finding something on sale and if you've been saving up and then suddenly you have enough...!!! Someone will have their day made.

[Clya]

I don't have a super long comment, just popping in to say that I think fluctuating prices for more common easily obtainable breeds is okay. But rarer, cb holidays, cb prizes, and such should NOT have fluctuating prices.

[Fiona]

I'm going to wander in here and suggest again that something like monthly saies events would be fun.

 

Something like: "Spend the points to get 6 spirit wards, get a magma free." or something like that. The "buy in quantity" eggs would always be something underpopulated. Something the game really needs us to have more of. The "get free" would be something currently popular or somewhat uncommon. So, a nice reward for people who get more of a breed that needs a population boost.

 

It's not something a lot of people would go for, but I think enough might to make it worth considering. Besides, who doesn't love a sale? This idea wouldn't affect the prices of the sale dragon. So if say spirit wards are going for 100 points this week, you'd be spending 600 points on those 6 eggs.

[Naruhina_94]

I'm going to wander in here and suggest again that something like monthly saies events would be fun.

 

Something like: "Spend the points to get 6 spirit wards, get a magma free." or something like that. The "buy in quantity" eggs would always be something underpopulated. Something the game really needs us to have more of. The "get free" would be something currently popular or somewhat uncommon. So, a nice reward for people who get more of a breed that needs a population boost.

 

It's not something a lot of people would go for, but I think enough might to make it worth considering. Besides, who doesn't love a sale? This idea wouldn't affect the prices of the sale dragon. So if say spirit wards are going for 100 points this week, you'd be spending 600 points on those 6 eggs.

I like the spirit ward example, it eems a good way to balance cave blockers (if you can't abandon them).

[Lastalda]

I'm going to wander in here and suggest again that something like monthly saies events would be fun.

 

Something like: "Spend the points to get 6 spirit wards, get a magma free." or something like that. The "buy in quantity" eggs would always be something underpopulated. Something the game really needs us to have more of. The "get free" would be something currently popular or somewhat uncommon. So, a nice reward for people who get more of a breed that needs a population boost.

 

It's not something a lot of people would go for, but I think enough might to make it worth considering. Besides, who doesn't love a sale? This idea wouldn't affect the prices of the sale dragon. So if say spirit wards are going for 100 points this week, you'd be spending 600 points on those 6 eggs.

That's a kind of sale I wouldn't mind.

 

Would only make sense if a magma actually cost more than 6 times what spirits wards cost (in the example), though, since otherwise people might just take a magma. (Since this is meant as an incentive to raise cave blockers, these should be easy enough to catch without spending points. But then, cave blockers will probably be very cheap anyway, so that ratio whould be easy to accomplish.)

And yes, it would only works if store-eggs can't be abandoned or traded or otherwise gotten rid off (unbiteable?), which many people seemed to agree would be a good thing anyway.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Lastalda

[Clya]

I'm going to wander in here and suggest again that something like monthly saies events would be fun.

 

Something like: "Spend the points to get 6 spirit wards, get a magma free." or something like that. The "buy in quantity" eggs would always be something underpopulated. Something the game really needs us to have more of. The "get free" would be something currently popular or somewhat uncommon. So, a nice reward for people who get more of a breed that needs a population boost.

 

It's not something a lot of people would go for, but I think enough might to make it worth considering. Besides, who doesn't love a sale? This idea wouldn't affect the prices of the sale dragon. So if say spirit wards are going for 100 points this week, you'd be spending 600 points on those 6 eggs.

Well if it was such a "higher" number would they be bought as hatchlings or lower time eggs? Because the main problem I see is no one buying them because they don't want to be egg locked, or newer users (or users who don't have a silver trophy) don't have enough spaces to get the deal.

Even if the number isn't 6 and was just used as an example that is something that would have to be kept in mind.

[Thuban]

I'm glad to see there are people who are interested in playing around with prices a bit. Flexibility like that is something that i think can make this suggestion even more viable as an option.

 

@Clya: these are going to be normal, 7 day eggs. There will be no spontanious hatchy creation.. just.. no.

 

Now I have to ask, because we didnt fully flesh this earlier I dont think:

 

*These store eggs, do we want them marked as "Store" for location, or just simply "cave"? (I ask because of biome specific breeding. If we go "store" route, do they still ping as biome neutral?)

 

*Do we push for these cbs to be tied to ratios, or no? (this would affect potential prices of things, so its worth working out)

 

 

 

[Ruby Eyes]

I recall reading somewhere 2 things (quoting out of my memory here what TJ said some time ago):

 

1. For ratios, only dragons born within the past year (aka 365 days) count, provided they're still alive and on a scroll.

2. The impact of breeding things on ratios is not as much as one might think, although even TJ doesn't know the exact numbers.

 

With these two things in mind, I don't think we need to bother a lot with exact ratios for the store. With price categories like "freaking common because released less than a year ago", "common", "uncommon" (trios, blusangs, pyralspites, xenos), "rare" and "prize" we'd probably get it all covered, where "freaking common" needs only a day or two worth of accumulating whateverstorecurreny and "prize" about 300 to 360 days.

(Technically, even Magmas shouldn't be as rare as they are - they just have that "trio" attribute that gives them special status among the players, and within lineages.)

 

For the Sales thing Fiona mentioned, if would be kinda of necessary if store-bought things not only cannot be traded or abandoned, but also not bitten or killed so you'd kind of force people to raise what they bought - including anything "freaking common".

That leaves room for special offers like "buy 5 freaking common, get 1 random uncommon for free, buy 20 freaking common (and lock yourself for a week ) get 1 random rare for free". It gives people that lottery feel that some seem to like so much AND the chance at helping the evil ratios. You could also make it a regular thing which focusses on single "freaking common" or "common" breeds, e.g. "It's Spirit Ward Week!" or "It's Tri-Horn Month!" with the special offers mentioned above.

 

I may have missed this in the past 50+ pages (granted, I only ocassionally read here to look for something new).

Could you buy things in excess of your current scroll limit, e.g. 8 Purple eggs at once?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Ruby Eyes

[Thuban]

I may have missed this in the past 50+ pages (granted, I only ocassionally read here to look for something new).

Could you buy things in excess of your current scroll limit, e.g. 8 Purple eggs at once?

No, buying past the scroll limits hasn't been discussed, or even an option. Scroll limits exist in the game for a reason, and I think it would take away from the original game play if the shop were to overwrite that.

 

Unless of course we do go with adding the BSA type items eventually.. and make an item for adding egg slots that could be purchased. But, i am extremely hesitant on that to be honest.

 

 

 

[Fiona]

I don't think it matters if marked store or cave if either way it counts as biome-less. That would be a matter of flavor. Unless marking them as "store" does not count toward ratios. Personally I think they should count, as in that case putting super commons on sale for lower prices would have no effect on the unbalanced ratios. It would potentially mean some over-populated breeds might not show up in the store until their ratios balance better. I don't know for sure, but tend to think only TJ would be able to truly determine if that would be a good idea. We don't know how small the tipping point is, or how much impact something like this would have on revitalizing the game.

 

 

I was using "buy 6 get 1 free" as an example. I would think any number higher than 2 would be ok for an "in quantity" sale with an adjustment for what was the free component. I was not thinking they could buy more than they could hold at that time. I also was not thinking hatchlings would be available this way.

[Ruby Eyes]

Nah, I wouldn't consider handing out hatchlings this way either.

 

But (gold trophy sample) purchasing 21 eggs wouldn't actually make things easier, since 7 eggs and 14 hatchlings grow up and make room faster than 21 eggs would. You'd basically have no movement on your scroll for at least 2 days before you could at least freeze something. So the 20+1 sales sample from above the previous page would still be okay since it's not really "working around the limits"?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Ruby Eyes

[Obscure_Trash]

I'm going to wander in here and suggest again that something like monthly saies events would be fun.

 

Something like: "Spend the points to get 6 spirit wards, get a magma free." or something like that. The "buy in quantity" eggs would always be something underpopulated. Something the game really needs us to have more of. The "get free" would be something currently popular or somewhat uncommon. So, a nice reward for people who get more of a breed that needs a population boost.

 

It's not something a lot of people would go for, but I think enough might to make it worth considering. Besides, who doesn't love a sale? This idea wouldn't affect the prices of the sale dragon. So if say spirit wards are going for 100 points this week, you'd be spending 600 points on those 6 eggs.

This is interesting, I like the idea.

 

However...

 

My main concern with the store in general is that the focus becomes on the store rather than hunting/breeding, and I have to wonder what the effect of sales would have on the store. More popular, less popular?

 

I'm not against a way to give users a long term alternative to getting hard to get dragons (I know several older users, myself included, who don't catch many cb rares for a variety of reasons, also if the raffles are officially done...), but I am hesitant about DC's focus becoming more of a store than anything else. =x

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think it matters if marked store or cave if either way it counts as biome-less.

I think it needs to be biome related somehow - because of - for instance - coppers.

 

I also share Sock's concern about a store possibly removing the focus on cave hinting and breeding. Which is one reason I am so very much for the points/mana/whatever being related primarily (I'd personally prefer TOTALLY !) to "normal cave activity" - catching, breeding, BSAing.

 

And NONE of it being in ANY way purchasable with cash money ever ever ever.

[Fiona]

I understand your concern, Socky. But if prices are set in a way so it takes more than a day to earn enough points even for a super common, plus points are earned by catching in the cave as well as breeding and other regular activities I don't think the store will ever risk replacing cave hunting. If in addition to carefully set store prices TJ actually fixes the cave so it's less frustrating to hunt there then I think the overall effect the store would have would be to help revitalize the game, giving players an alternate way to acquire a few of their dragons rather than replacing cave hunting.

 

When the game started cave hunting was the only way to get eggs, right? Then breeding was introduced. That meant there were two ways to get eggs, with cave hunting being the dominant way. Gradually over the course of the last couple years it appears to me that breeding has supplanted cave hunting as the principal way to get eggs. There are many complaints about the frustration of cave hunting and comments that people have basically stopped hunting the cave except for new releases. Personally I think the Shuffle is to blame for the increasingly anemic cave as less popular breeds get left while more popular ones are grabbed at each shuffle. Then the less popular ones left over at the top of the hour get deleted, to be recreated at the top of the hour. Rinse and repeat. If TJ fixes that, providing a more dynamically active cave, then I don't think adding this as an alternate option for getting eggs will cause a problem.

[Ruby Eyes]

Actually, with the introduction of the shuffles, I myself got interested in cave hunting again - mostly for specific codes though. These days, I'm looking for z-coded Whiptails and Spitfires - things I'd never have cared for if there wasn't a somewhat predictable biome behaviour. It also enabled me to find a Gold last year for my Secret Santa giftee.

I don't think it's cave hunting that needs fixing. It's just that the ever-present "ratios" have too much influence on things.

[Fiona]

The ever-present ratios are the backbone of the code, as I understand it. There's no such thing as the ratios having too much influence because without them there is no game. What we need to do is treat them with respect while we propose changes that will add dimension to the game.

[Thuban]

Originally, I didnt want every breed available at all times. I assumed they would have to be tied to ratios, and therefore, sometimes would be subject to dry spells in there. Having everything (non-holiday) available at all times makes it a bit overpowered in my eyes. That was why fluctuating prices had come up. If balloons for some reason are actually acting like rares, then I would expect the cost of them to go up in the store. If they are crazy common, then it would go down. This makes perfect sense to me.

 

The idea of having "sales" was specifically to move the dragons. If the price goes down, whee, you can afford more things. Im perfectly cool with "buy 4 dragons, get one free" type deals. My local grocery store has "buy 4 boxes of cereal, get a gallon of milk free" sales all the time, at least once a month. Sometimes they even stack sales on the cereals themselves with it. One might drop 4/$10, instead of the normal 3.99 each and still qualify you for the free milk. The idea of a trader with a surplus of eggs they can't move, doing something like that so they can focus on stocking up with better things, and earn his profits, doesn't seem like a very far stretch.

 

 

Fuzz: its been well established by now that RL money will not be able to be used to buy currency directly. The closest its gotten is being able to buy a week of points (if you are on vacation or have a job or something preventing you from playing).. which wasn't a popular idea. Earning points is still 100% done by actually PLAYING the game as it is meant to be played.

 

[Obscure_Trash]

I understand your concern, Socky. But if prices are set in a way so it takes more than a day to earn enough points even for a super common, plus points are earned by catching in the cave as well as breeding and other regular activities I don't think the store will ever risk replacing cave hunting. If in addition to carefully set store prices TJ actually fixes the cave so it's less frustrating to hunt there then I think the overall effect the store would have would be to help revitalize the game, giving players an alternate way to acquire a few of their dragons rather than replacing cave hunting.

 

When the game started cave hunting was the only way to get eggs, right? Then breeding was introduced. That meant there were two ways to get eggs, with cave hunting being the dominant way. Gradually over the course of the last couple years it appears to me that breeding has supplanted cave hunting as the principal way to get eggs. There are many complaints about the frustration of cave hunting and comments that people have basically stopped hunting the cave except for new releases. Personally I think the Shuffle is to blame for the increasingly anemic cave as less popular breeds get left while more popular ones are grabbed at each shuffle. Then the less popular ones left over at the top of the hour get deleted, to be recreated at the top of the hour. Rinse and repeat. If TJ fixes that, providing a more dynamically active cave, then I don't think adding this as an alternate option for getting eggs will cause a problem.

Your post gave me an idea.

 

What if it could be set so that you could also grab and raise x number of x underpopulated (underpopulated here meaning people aren't grabbing/breeding them so there aren't as many even though they are a perceived common) breed or even raise in a certain amount of time to fulfill 'sale' requirements?

Edited January 27, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler

[pederino]

Now I have to ask, because we didnt fully flesh this earlier I dont think:

 

*These store eggs, do we want them marked as "Store" for location, or just simply "cave"? (I ask because of biome specific breeding. If we go "store" route, do they still ping as biome neutral?)

 

*Do we push for these cbs to be tied to ratios, or no? (this would affect potential prices of things, so its worth working out)

I think they should be "cave" biome. And keep it neutral, giving more variety on lineages with the biome-breeding mechanics, I mean, some people have complained about coppers not breeding how they like with certain breeds because they are exclusive to certain biomes, forcing them to use female copper.

 

And the CBs should be tied for ratios. I mean, how fluctuating prices would work if not because of it? This is of course if the fluctuating prices is still a thing.

 

I would like to know something about the "buy this many things to get this other thing free" offers: how the cave will know if a breed is "popular"? For example, with the 6 spirit wards and a free magma, how would the game "know" the magma is popular? would there be a poll every now and then?, or it would be just because of its BSA or uncommon status? Or will it know because its "overpopulated"? if yes, then what if a "popular" and valuable dragon is not overpopulated, will it count it as popular? and how?

[Ruby Eyes]

The ever-present ratios are the backbone of the code, as I understand it. There's no such thing as the ratios having too much influence because without them there is no game. What we need to do is treat them with respect while we propose changes that will add dimension to the game.

Have you seen the code? I haven't, and I somehow doubt you have. As such, I'd call that an interesting interpretation of which only TJ knows if it's a fact. And until then, I will call the dependency on ratios too strict.

 

"Location: Cave" should be alright for store-bought things. I mean, Raffle wins are also stated to be from the "Cave" even though they technically aren't - they have been placed directly into your hands. If store-bought things would need their own location, then raffle things should also have one.

[Fuzzbucket]

"Location: Cave" should be alright for store-bought things. I mean, Raffle wins are also stated to be from the "Cave" even though they technically aren't - they have been placed directly into your hands. If store-bought things would need their own location, then raffle things should also have one.

But you cannot get prizes from any biome, so it would HAVE to say cave. That's not the same for coppers and Xenos, where biome can make a difference.

 

I'd rather that where an egg is associated with a biome, it said which. I would NOT want ANYTHING of mine to say "store" though.

 

What if it could be set so that you could also grab and raise x number of x underpopulated (underpopulated here meaning people aren't grabbing/breeding them so there aren't as many even though they are a perceived common) breed or even raise in a certain amount of time to fulfill 'sale' requirements?

 

I quite like that as another way to get "currency".