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Thuban

Trader's Canyon

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The ever-present ratios are the backbone of the code, as I understand it. There's no such thing as the ratios having too much influence because without them there is no game. What we need to do is treat them with respect while we propose changes that will add dimension to the game.

Since older Dragons are cycled out of ratios, it should be easy to flag store-bought Dragons (maybe only internally)and not use them either. smile.gif

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Your post gave me an idea.

 

What if it could be set so that you could also grab and raise x number of x underpopulated (underpopulated here meaning people aren't grabbing/breeding them so there aren't as many even though they are a perceived common) breed or even raise in a certain amount of time to fulfill 'sale' requirements?

I like this! It could either be a "trade" or perhaps a quest, something that you can lock in for a certain amount of time (say 2 weeks), so you'd have that long to get those x number of blockers in order to get the specific uncommon.

 

But I would have it biome-linked: you'd be able to select, say, the "Coast" Biome and collect Waverunners in order to get a Coast Copper or Thalassus, ie only things found in the Coast. Also have how many you need to collect, and the time you have to collect it in, linked to the uncommon / rare you are trying to get. That way, there'd be no chance of a Hybrid or Alt or CB Prize, but you could (in theory) get a Metal that way. You might have to collect 100 or more Waverunners, but it would create a spike in the CB population of the under-populated breeds.

 

This would let those people get other things from the store, even if they are saving up their points. It'd be a different type of points, say, something that is very specific and you'd say need to be lucky to catch the right "trade".

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

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Socky and C4, I like the ideas you've come up with. My thinking behind the sale idea was to give players incentive for raising underpopulated dragons. Your method would do that in a way that I think would be very effective. It also opens it up to even the newest players and lets the deals be for more than our maximum number of egg slots.

 

So, go to the store > initiate the deal

Go to the biome(s) involved, grab eggs. Raise eggs, grab more, until the number is reached.

Go back to the store and claim your bargain egg.

 

 

My thinking for having the store eggs count toward the ratios was to help address the imbalance for underpopulated breeds, but this particular idea would make that less needed. It would also let people use their eggs slots as a sort of "currency" toward buying some desired eggs instead of relying on their points, which could then be saved toward harder to get things like that elusive prize dragon.

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Sounds not unlike veteran rewards. Just targeted towards fewer dragons in the end.

 

/support

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Risking a double post poke here, but to avoid the giant wall of text leading to this thought being ignored, im gonna risk it.

 

The "store" and "currency" options of wording are still tripping people up after all this time. A trading station has been mentioned multiple times though. Would a Wandering Trader make you guys happy?

 

It wouldnt be available all the time, to every user but should rotate frequently enough that everyone gets a chance at least once a month (perhaps a quarter of the population has access at any given time.. or everyone can have access at once, but it might make things a little funky in the trading arena)

 

Instead of currency or points.. lets stick to the economy we ALREADY HAVE.

 

Lets say the trader has 20 eggs to choose from.

 

15 commons (varies)

3 uncommon

1 "rare"

1 prize equivalent rare IF current ratios will allow them to happen (holiday, prize, retired if allowed, HMs if bossman can be convinced to allow it)

 

Some weeks may have different numbers of things than others, and it might not always be what you are hoping to get. How do you get them?

 

The trader will TELL you. "If you bring me an egg of this species and an egg of that one, you can have this." "I'm in need of a red hatchling, would you happen to have one?" "I actually need a caveborn seasonal, do you have one?"

 

People forget, we treat our dragons themselves as currency. Would you guys be more willing to trade in various types of dragon combinations, in order to get those eggs, than you are with dealing with point specific currency?

 

They would still STAY untradable, as has already been established. The limit is purely "can you breed this, or catch it for me before I leave town in x days?"

I've been reading back through this thread page by page. It is funny how many time the same questions and objections have come up, been explained away, and then brought up again. Wouldnt have been a problem if I had been better about keeping the pages updated.. but there have been so many different ideas pitched, that I couldnt keep up. I added a few things to the first post, but nothing too important outside of the quote from the bossman talking about hybrids.

 

 

I went digging, specifically for the quote above... because I knew it had come up at least twice.

 

 

Honestly, im cool with points. Im cool with trading mana shards. Im cool with special trades where you have to find specific things to "trade" the trader for eggs. If its not tied to specific lineages, those same eggs can then be "recycled", lose their lineages and sold back to the masses as "cbs". While the quote itself had bad ideas.. the ability to find ANY egg of a specific type, and trade it to the dude to get things or having to raise those specifically.. plays on the economy we already have established. By all means... if its something you guys like, I can totally add it to the first post (with someone elses help with phrasing...)

 

Its wonderful how far a simple idea, with simple framework can be expanded to cover every change that has come up since the initial idea tongue.gif This thread has been on a crazy journey.. and I'm glad to see I have won a decent chunk of people over, who absolutely hated everything about the idea in the beginning... hehe. Seriously though.. if you have spare time...re-read the thread. smile.gif

Edited by Thuban

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I've been reading back through this thread page by page. It is funny how many time the same questions and objections have come up, been explained away, and then brought up again. Wouldnt have been a problem if I had been better about keeping the pages updated.. but there have been so many different ideas pitched, that I couldnt keep up. I added a few things to the first post, but nothing too important outside of the quote from the bossman talking about hybrids.

 

 

I went digging, specifically for the quote above... because I knew it had come up at least twice.

 

 

Honestly, im cool with points. Im cool with trading mana shards. Im cool with special trades where you have to find specific things to "trade" the trader for eggs. If its not tied to specific lineages, those same eggs can then be "recycled", lose their lineages and sold back to the masses as "cbs". While the quote itself had bad ideas.. the ability to find ANY egg of a specific type, and trade it to the dude to get things or having to raise those specifically.. plays on the economy we already have established. By all means... if its something you guys like, I can totally add it to the first post (with someone elses help with phrasing...)

 

Its wonderful how far a simple idea, with simple framework can be expanded to cover every change that has come up since the initial idea tongue.gif This thread has been on a crazy journey.. and I'm glad to see I have won a decent chunk of people over, who absolutely hated everything about the idea in the beginning... hehe. Seriously though.. if you have spare time...re-read the thread. smile.gif

ER - Thu, I love you to bits - but these days, when I am posting here it is an "if this happens please take account of this" thing - because if those of us who DON'T like an idea say nothing, it will show up in what we consider its worstest form xd.png I am not won over; I only mind MARGINALLY less, and I totally mind if any actual cash shows up - which I believe it doesn't ?

 

It would inevitably be a part of the "DC stockmarket" thing I hate so much already. VALUING things against other things. That's what I hate - at the moment at least all that is basically user perceived.

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ER - Thu, I love you to bits - but these days, when I am posting here it is an "if this happens please take account of this" thing - because if those of us who DON'T like an idea say nothing, it will show up in what we consider its worstest form xd.png I am not won over; I only mind MARGINALLY less, and I totally mind if any actual cash shows up - which I believe it doesn't ?

 

Still no cash. smile.gif

 

Daily play and points being traded in, will stay the main focus here. But after thinking about it, if people want to play with "raise these things, get something" as another option for the store, then I think it would be best to do a different thread. This threads trader is only interested in the mana shards/points. If a second trader wants to show up and give you things for free in return for raising dragons, they are welcome to share space IN the store, if/when the store is established and the kinks are worked out, but not this thread tongue.gif

 

I think I've done a pretty decent job with taking peoples concerns into stride as this thread has evolved. I dropped a few of the key points I wanted to keep in place, to make it more user friendly, based on what kept being said.

 

It would inevitably be a part of the "DC stockmarket" thing I hate so much already. VALUING things against other things. That's what I hate - at the moment at least all that is basically user perceived.

 

It might not seem obvious, but I actually am still working out a way to price things so that "official" rarities cant be figured out, by looking at the point cost. Fluctuating prices were just one option to kind of help mask that (as was the idea of having things kind of rotate in and out of the store, after cave-catchable commons were added to the mix). Im still playing with ideas. If you have anything on that front that would help you be more willing to be ok with things, by all means, keep pitching them here, or hash it out in pm with me tongue.gif

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It might not seem obvious, but I actually am still working out a way to price things so that "official" rarities cant be figured out, by looking at the point cost. Fluctuating prices were just one option to kind of help mask that (as was the idea of having things kind of rotate in and out of the store, after cave-catchable commons were added to the mix). Im still playing with ideas. If you have anything on that front that would help you be more willing to be ok with things, by all means, keep pitching them here, or hash it out in pm with me tongue.gif

Anyone who's done a lot of hunting / breeding over the years can see how the ratios generally stack up against each other, and watch how they change over time. The user-driven rares are easy to spot, as are the blockers. Simply breeding a dozen dragons of the same pairing together will tell you how breed A stacks up against breed B, commonality wise at that point in time. Breeding those same pairs over several months / year+ will show you how the breeds change in relation to each other over time. All this by tracking the produce record of the dragons in question, or grabbing eggs one after the other from the Biomes and tracking what you get.

 

So I think so long as there is a kicker in the formula that is directly related to over / under populated breeds (ie, those that are over-populated are far, far more expensive than they normally would be), a user who tracked the store would end up with the same information those that already track the Biomes and breeding rates already know: how a given breed stacks up to others at a given point in time.

 

So in short, so long as the store prices are tied directly to how the Cave determines the Biome eggs and bred eggs, I don't think any other extraordinary means needs to be taken to ensure that people don't "figure out the ratios", because active users already *know* that information.

 

Why hide information that people already have? Kinda like trying to lock the barn door..... after the horses have already escaped. ;P

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Anyone who's done a lot of hunting / breeding over the years can see how the ratios generally stack up against each other, and watch how they change over time. The user-driven rares are easy to spot, as are the blockers. Simply breeding a dozen dragons of the same pairing together will tell you how breed A stacks up against breed B, commonality wise at that point in time. Breeding those same pairs over several months / year+ will show you how the breeds change in relation to each other over time. All this by tracking the produce record of the dragons in question, or grabbing eggs one after the other from the Biomes and tracking what you get.

 

So I think so long as there is a kicker in the formula that is directly related to over / under populated breeds (ie, those that are over-populated are far, far more expensive than they normally would be), a user who tracked the store would end up with the same information those that already track the Biomes and breeding rates already know: how a given breed stacks up to others at a given point in time.

 

So in short, so long as the store prices are tied directly to how the Cave determines the Biome eggs and bred eggs, I don't think any other extraordinary means needs to be taken to ensure that people don't "figure out the ratios", because active users already *know* that information.

 

Why hide information that people already have? Kinda like trying to lock the barn door..... after the horses have already escaped. ;P

 

Cheers!

C4.

This, actually. And IF it happens xd.png I quite like the idea of earning points / mana /whatever the currency is by raising blockers to adulthood (with fewer points if you hatch and freeze, I think !) I think that should be a part of this thread actually, as otherwise people will say later "but if you'd said THAT in the first place I would have..."

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This, actually. And IF it happens xd.png I quite like the idea of earning points / mana /whatever the currency is by raising blockers to adulthood (with fewer points if you hatch and freeze, I think !) I think that should be a part of this thread actually, as otherwise people will say later "but if you'd said THAT in the first place I would have..."

Or the cave could simply randomly assign more or less points based on what you are raising, in relation to the ratios...since we are already going to be earning points by raising things anyhow (points per stage: breeding/obtaining an egg is one set of points.. hatching an egg is another set, having it grow up is another set, until the cap is hit). But then there becomes the issue of exploitation.. or misunderstandings.

 

If you only get x points a day/week for raising dragons.. and the dragons that happen to be worth more for raising, due to being underpopulated, then how do we ensure THOSE points are applied, before the "normal" ones? Only have points tally once a week? But then people who have earned their points to grab a thing, are stuck waiting until (lets say Saturday nights @11:59pm) for those points to show up. Daily tally would be alright, but what if you have a bunch of "normal" point dragons grow up, and cap you on points.. before the "higher valued" ones grow?

 

Of course, the points overall would need to be assigned in whatever format TJ feels is best, for what his specific code needs to function properly.

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Have a daily / weekly cap, but allow for bonus points to exceed the cap no matter when they were earned?

 

Example: You reach your cap on Thursday and decide to raise some "bonus" dragons. You'll still get the bonus points for the breed (and their respective stages), but not the general points for raising dragons.

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Or the cave could simply randomly assign more or less points based on what you are raising, in relation to the ratios...since we are already going to be earning points by raising things anyhow (points per stage: breeding/obtaining an egg is one set of points.. hatching an egg is another set, having it grow up is another set, until the cap is hit). But then there becomes the issue of exploitation.. or misunderstandings.

 

If you only get x points a day/week for raising dragons.. and the dragons that happen to be worth more for raising, due to being underpopulated, then how do we ensure THOSE points are applied, before the "normal" ones? Only have points tally once a week? But then people who have earned their points to grab a thing, are stuck waiting until (lets say Saturday nights @11:59pm) for those points to show up. Daily tally would be alright, but what if you have a bunch of "normal" point dragons grow up, and cap you on points.. before the "higher valued" ones grow?

 

Of course, the points overall would need to be assigned in whatever format TJ feels is best, for what his specific code needs to function properly.

Why apply bonus points before normal ones?

 

If the "bonus" points only give you a way to earn the max number of points sooner, then there IS no bonus for someone like me to raise the under-populated breeds, and I'm the type of user who you want to encorage. I'll work on just about any project, but what I work on depends on what I'm most interested in any given week. If breed A and breed B both have a bonus, I'll breed them for a checker for the whole week instead of breeding breeds C and D (which looks prettier at that point in time). I'm going to hit the max each week regardless of what breeds I'm breeding / raising, so what incentive is there for me to raise said under-populated breed.... If it just lets me hit the max that *I'd already hit* faster?

 

On the other hand, if the "population bonus" gets applied regardless of the normal bonus (ie, you can exceed your weekly limit that way) then there *is* an incentive for me to seek out the under-populated breeds.

 

To me, the "under-populated" bonus should only be for the half-dozen *most* under-populated breeds at any given time, and should be applied without regard for the nominal limit. Would someone who chose to raise hundreds of the most under-populated breeds be able to exceed their limit by a large amount? Yes.

 

But here's the rub..... Why not LET them? These breeds are by definition the worst of the blocker breeds! The ones that cause the most distress in the Biomes, the ones that breed the worst, the ones that, to be frank.... make the game the most frustrating. By actively encouraging people to raise the worst ones, that helps *everyone*. So why not give those industrious users a bonus for helping everyone? Yes, they will get the CB Prizes faster.... but along they way, they've really helped everyone in the entire game and frankly deserve that bonus.

 

And you can turn it around, if you want. Give a 0.1 point bonus for each of the 5 most under-populated breeds.... and a -0.1 "bonus" for each of the 5 most *over*-populated breeds. Over time, that fraction will add up to a *lot*.... but only over time. So someone who is raising 1,000 Olives (chronically under-populated) will get a huge bonus, but someone raising an army of Golds (the most over-populated) would get a substantially less "bonus".

 

 

Also, daily caps with raising dragons penalizes those who grab 7 eggs and raise them all at the same time. The person who is hatching 2 a day will spread their point gains out over all days, but those who hatch them in batches will loose points when they keep hitting their daily max one day but not the next. A weekly limit would be far more fair, given that raising eggs typically goes in 2 and 3 day increments.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Also, daily caps with raising dragons penalizes those who grab 7 eggs and raise them all at the same time. The person who is hatching 2 a day will spread their point gains out over all days, but those who hatch them in batches will loose points when they keep hitting their daily max one day but not the next. A weekly limit would be far more fair, given that raising eggs typically goes in 2 and 3 day increments.

Love this idea, I have been trying for 4yrs to get certain dragons and haven't yet so this will give people having the same problem a chance.

I have to agree with cyradis4 about the weekly cap instead of the daily one as I know from experience that you have days when there is nothing you can do on DC cause you are egg-locked so the only points you will be getting on those days are for logging in and then when you finally have something to do you would go over your limit.

Anyway great idea, hopefully we will see this happening in the future. biggrin.gif

Edited by Paige201208

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No support for this store whatsoever! It is a very long winded idea that will cause problems which, in turn, will also cause lots more work for TJ. It will change the whole essence of Dragon Cave.

 

Please, please, please do not implement this idea. If it gets approved we may as well rename Dragon Cave "Dragon Store".

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Not necessarily. The most supported plan for obtaining currency is to both have a cap per week and have it obtained through normal gameplay actions, which would mean that for most people they wouldn't need to change anything about their playstyle and it would ultimately only change the ability to obtain certain limited breeds.

 

Yes, this will take a while to code. That was never in question. But we users can't veto ideas based on that alone; only TJ can.

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Regardless of the amount coding involved, I still think that the whole general idea of it isn't good. As I said, it will obviously change Dragon Cave almost altogether and I am not in favour of it personally.

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The original idea, that is no longer even in the first post, had potential to be a serious game changer. The option as it stands now.. is essentially rewards gained by playing the game however you already play.

 

 

If the raffle is gone, as it seems to be, then we need ways to get more of the cb prizes into play, since eventually the cb owners will stop breeding and playing. As the userbase continues to climb, its only going to keep getting harder for people to obtain the low gens they are after.

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I don't like this idea at all.

Like AnanoKimi said, obtaining those rarer dragons is already hard to do. This currency/trading post/store would simply make it even harder and more annoying. Users with not a lot of time online will have to work harder at getting those much-loved dragons.

If this were to ever become real, I'd most likely quit. This idea is a recipe for disaster.

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I don't like this idea at all.

Like AnanoKimi said, obtaining those rarer dragons is already hard to do. This currency/trading post/store would simply make it even harder and more annoying. Users with not a lot of time online will have to work harder at getting those much-loved dragons.

If this were to ever become real, I'd most likely quit. This idea is a recipe for disaster.

Users with not a lot of time on line always have to work harder. That's life, I'm afraid.

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I'm rather confused as to how people would be working harder or having more trouble getting the dragons if their normal gameplay would eventually get them what they're looking for through the store. It might take longer than someone who has a lot of time to spend on DC, but how is it more difficult than using one's available DC time to hunt the cave for the same dragon?

Edited by Kith

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Uh, I said even harder than before. Please read before criticizing.

Seeing as how this isn't *replacing* anything, how would it be harder?

 

They can still get things the same way they always have, after all. There would just be this new thing they can get stuff from, too. Is it going to take time for someone with little time than with someone who is always on? Yes. But it won't be "even harder" than it is now, because right now they 1. can't get CB Prizes anymore (see no raffles) (so any way to get them is therefore easier than it currently is, since it currently is impossible), and 2. the same methods already in use will still be in use, and the Store is being set so that its easier to get almost everything via the Biomes anyway, so how can their current method be harder when its not changing?

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Uh, I said even harder than before. Please read before criticizing.

I quoted you exactly, having read what you said. Disagreeing isn't the same thing as criticising - but it is inevitably true that the more you are on line, the easier it will be to collect what you want. However, the store will make it possible to collect things that you simply could NEVER get before. I could even save up for the CB gold I need to complete my set - my internet and my aged reflexes mean that I'm never going to CATCH one !

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I don't like this idea at all.

Like AnanoKimi said, obtaining those rarer dragons is already hard to do. This currency/trading post/store would simply make it even harder and more annoying. Users with not a lot of time online will have to work harder at getting those much-loved dragons.

If this were to ever become real, I'd most likely quit. This idea is a recipe for disaster.

The idea of the store is to give people who play the game, as they would normally, over long periods of time the ability to "earn" the dragons that they cant get on their own... or in the case of prizes... that NOBODY can get.

 

+Weekly caps were added for those people who can only play in short bursts during the week (caps can be reached in as little as thirty minutes for certain things.. if that long...)

 

+Alternative suggestions came up for other ways to earn points on top of just playing and using BSAs. For example, raising certain types of dragons could feasibly earn more points than just raising any dragons could.

 

+Most of this idea was made around players like my kids, who at best, play an hour a week, since their computer time is rather limited. Players who have jobs, and kids, school and other real life commitments that get in the way of playing games. The caps, are to keep those people who have the luxury of spending hours and hours playing the game from being able to grind to get them over and over again.

 

+the things obtained are NOT tradable. Therefore, you dont have to worry about the normal trade economy changing much (outside of the prices of prizes eventually coming down as more people earn them).

 

+by playing just once a week.. you will earn the points to trade in for prizes at the same rate daily players can. If you skip a few weeks, no big deal. Your points do not expire, and save up until you are ready to spend them.

 

 

So, please, if you are still seeing an issue that explicitly changes the game and makes it harder, by all means,. point it out. I havent seen a comment from Ananokimi recently, that you might possibly be referencing, so help me out and tell me where the problem is that you see?

 

 

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No support for this store whatsoever! It is a very long winded idea that will cause problems which, in turn, will also cause lots more work for TJ. It will change the whole essence of Dragon Cave.

 

Please, please, please do not implement this idea. If it gets approved we may as well rename Dragon Cave "Dragon Store".

Exactly!

With you 100%

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