Trader's Canyon

[Thuban]

The idea of earning points passively while just playing the game has been brought up a few times, and my comments on that have been: if theres a way to do it that cant be easily exploited, I cant think of it.

 

Games, at least are something that it is easy enough to set a cap on and be done with. Its something that can be easily limited to only a few areas within the cave. Having points happen by idly doing things around the cave isn't a half bad idea, but they would need to involve actually doing things around the cave, be something that isnt easily scripted, or obtained simply by setting a refresher and walking away. Every idea I have come up with that didnt seem scriptable/exploitable.. isnt done through normal game play.

 

 

Rating descriptions... is something helpful that could use more people helping out, could earn points. However, its not something many people seem to enjoy doing, because when I do make the effort, its always the same 3-5 people that leave comments and crits, which leads me to believe that not many people actually enjoy doing that. I would never earn points from it, because i dont rate.. if im looking at descriptions its to approve/deny them.

 

The only method I can think of that wouldnt necessarily break things in the standard game side playing, is simply to give x points, once a day when people log in. Some points could probably be gained simply by viewing other peoples dragons I suppose, using whatever mechanics are in place for gaining counts when it comes to the encyclopedia.

 

If there are ideas out there for how to do it (that dont involve weird world building aspects to work) I'm all ears, and perfectly fine with adding them on to this idea. Point gain would end up being a bit slower than playing the games would be, but it could be done, if theres a non-exploitable way of doing it.

[Ruby Eyes]

Whichever way you would gather the points with, it could always be capped like your mana bar was last christmas.

 

I'd like to play the christmas mini games again though. So it could be combined like that event was: either by walking around and collecting mana (or now by breeding/raising/activities) or by playing a mini-game. The cap would be the same.

[Fuzzbucket]

Whichever way you would gather the points with, it could always be capped like your mana bar was last christmas.

Yes indeed it can.

 

But one thing that SERIOUSLY bugs me is the TITLE of this thread. It immediately suggests dragons that can't be got without going to the store. For me that is a TOTAL no-no.

[Ruby Eyes]

Isn't that the point of this store? To get CB things that usually cannot be acquired CB (unless you win a raffle)?

[Thuban]

Yes indeed it can.

 

But one thing that SERIOUSLY bugs me is the TITLE of this thread. It immediately suggests dragons that can't be got without going to the store. For me that is a TOTAL no-no.

Limited release had more to do with holidays, cb prized and cb hybrids than store exclusives.

 

 

CB holidays to have, are LIMITED releases, gained by being here and catching them.

CB Prizes are LIMITED releases, because they are only obtained a certain way, to a limited amount of people.

CB HYbrids and alt colorations, are limited for the same reason.

 

 

Its an alternate suggestions because: oh hey, you cant hunt these in the cave.

 

 

These dragons CAN be obtained through raffles.. but if you dont win, you cant get them, therefore, YES you would have to go to the store to get them (or trade for the ones that are tradable, that someone else went into the store for)

 

The title is simply to convey the specific idea, in a clear format (per forum rules, titles should give an idea of what the thread is about). The thread IS about finding a way to get those limited dragons into the general publics hands via a "store" like option.

 

So.. a simple title change is all we need to win you over? Happen to have one?

[Fuzzbucket]

So.. a simple title change is all we need to win you over? Happen to have one?

It'll take more than that - but I will think on while I drive to the train station...

[Lurhstaap]

The idea of earning points passively while just playing the game has been brought up a few times, and my comments on that have been: if theres a way to do it that cant be easily exploited, I cant think of it.

 

Games, at least are something that it is easy enough to set a cap on and be done with. Its something that can be easily limited to only a few areas within the cave. Having points happen by idly doing things around the cave isn't a half bad idea, but they would need to involve actually doing things around the cave, be something that isnt easily scripted, or obtained simply by setting a refresher and walking away. Every idea I have come up with that didnt seem scriptable/exploitable.. isnt done through normal game play.

 

 

Rating descriptions... is something helpful that could use more people helping out, could earn points. However, its not something many people seem to enjoy doing, because when I do make the effort, its always the same 3-5 people that leave comments and crits, which leads me to believe that not many people actually enjoy doing that. I would never earn points from it, because i dont rate.. if im looking at descriptions its to approve/deny them.

 

The only method I can think of that wouldnt necessarily break things in the standard game side playing, is simply to give x points, once a day when people log in. Some points could probably be gained simply by viewing other peoples dragons I suppose, using whatever mechanics are in place for gaining counts when it comes to the encyclopedia.

 

If there are ideas out there for how to do it (that dont involve weird world building aspects to work) I'm all ears, and perfectly fine with adding them on to this idea. Point gain would end up being a bit slower than playing the games would be, but it could be done, if theres a non-exploitable way of doing it.

What do you mean? It's not hard to keep it from being exploited at all. Almost every other pet game I play has some sort of mechanic like that and not a single one I've played has had abuse issues with it. You just have to set some basic limits and restrictions in the code. For example it's impossible to abuse a log-in bonus because by definition it can only happen once per day when you first log in. And if you're concerned about multi-scroll abuse, either make currency non-transferable between accounts, or else it's basically the same situation with multi-scroll abuse already anyway and such people would fall into the same group as those who abuse Teleport. That is, the same mechanisms used to detect multi-scrolling now would surely be adequate to detect it, regardless if the multi-scroll abuse involved dragons or mana/money/whatever.

 

Scripts and refreshers are easily defeated by simply setting caps. If you can only earn so much per day doing a given activity, grinding only helps you get to the cap faster. It won't help you earn any more than anyone else can. So therefore grinding is pointless as a way to cheat.

 

Another way to do it without setting a hard cap would be to give a reward only for the first click on a given dragon or action per day. It's possible, I know, to set up scripts to click on spaces on the screen sequentially, but as far as I know they can't scroll down to keep doing it, so the abuse potential in that scenario is also very limited. You'd have to sit there and personally click all your dragons to maximize your earnings. Which probably most people wouldn't bother; they'd just accept whatever they got from that first click per day.

 

Action example: Breed your dragons, get some money. If you have more dragons you have more earning potential, but it's hard to set a script to auto-breed, unlike simple refreshes. (At least, to my knowledge - someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.) Since all actions like breeding and BSAs are themselves on cooldown, tying income to them would automatically impose the same limits.

 

Honestly I think Tale of Dragons handles the whole currency-gaining issue VERY well (although I DO NOT like how they handle the SPENDING of said currency.) On ToD you get currency for clicking on both your own and others' eggs, a random small amount each time. Only one click per day per egg/hatchie/dragon counts for money. And that's it. It's not particularly abuseable and takes a good amount of time to save up any meaningful amount of money, yet it still provides enough money and happens naturally in the course of playing the game, BUT you can also choose to grind it if you want, YET grinding it helps other players too because the only way to grind it is to go click other people's stuff once you run out of your own.

 

Personally I like the simpler versions of the "mana collecting/spell-casting" version of the idea over the straight-up 'store' version of the idea. But mainly just because I find buying dragons from a store boring, whereas the summoning element is more interesting. Plus if we used the existing mana created for the last holiday event it's that much less work for the people implementing the idea. The mana system is already in place, it'd just be repurposed, as opposed to creating a whole new system.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[lorimmel]

I really like the suggestions by Cyradis4, Naruhina, DarkEternity and Mysfytt (with some reservations though).

 

1. I think our "Store" should be integrated into DC lore, to please everybody for whom the lore is important. It will work like a store, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to feel like in a dragon Walmart. Instead of "buying" eggs with "points", you can just as well activate "spells" with "mana", or "crystals", or whatever, and as long as there are NO FAILS, it will work exactly the same, it will just feel more agreeable to people who don't like "stores" and who think lore is important.

 

2. I think the idea of collecting "points" (or "crystals", or "mana", or whatever really) via normal in-game activities, like raising dragons, breeding, catching, trading, etc. has a lot of potential. In my opinion the way of earning "points" (or crystals, etc.) is NOT CRUCIAL to this suggestion. I think it can be a minigame, or regular in-game activities, or both of them - just PLEASE NO highscores and no bidding wars. Once the very concept of redeeming points (whatever they are called) is approved we can start separate threads to work this out in the best possible way.

 

3. I like the concept presented by Dark Eternity - if you try to get an egg (via "summoning", or "calling", or "casting a spell", or whatever) before your "point" bar is full, there will be a possibility of fail. But if you patiently fill your whole bar, there will be NO FAIL. I really, sincerely and with no sarcasm wish the best of luck to everybody who likes gambling. I'm just not one of you, guys.

 

4. The Prizes (rewards): As long as CB Tinsels, CB Shimmers, CB New Raffle Prize (if/when released) are included, and as long as they are breedable, I think we can discuss the details when the concept is approved. Just let us get it approved first. I know I would absolutely love a CB Holly or CB Yulebuck, and other people would love other things. But again, I don't think the exact prize range is crucial to the concept itself.

 

5. The caps: As much as I support weekly caps, being seven times as big as theoretical daily caps (because it allows for more flexibility), I don't think it's crucial for the concept itself. I will support anything the majority chooses, really. And I think it is a detail that can be discussed once the whole concept is approved.

 

6. The limits / cooldowns: whatever you guys want. In my opinion it can take a year to earn a CB Tinsel, or three months, or whatever. As long as there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I don't really care. The one thing I know is: The vast majority of us will most probably die before winning the raffle. Giving out the most valuable dragons in the game to totally random people ONLY is a bad system. The loyal regular players should have a way to get them too. Once this happens, it will be a much better game.

 

Summing up:

In my opinion, we need a system that favors regular, loyal players, who don't necessarily have fast connection, fast reflexes, great social skills required for effective trading, or insane luck to win the raffle. I support such a system in any form, preferably (but not necessarily) lore-friendly. I think the most loyal players should have access to the best dragons in the game. Vesting such power in totally random people - AS THE ONLY WAY OF DISTRIBUTING THE PRIZES - is not good for the game. And I say this as a CB Prize owner (who won her prize in a tree decorating contest, NOT IN A RAFFLE).

 

+ 1,000,000,000 SUPPORT for ANY system of redeeming points for BREEDABLE Tinsels, Shimmers and potential new prize breeds, without inter-player competition of ANY KIND.

And please, let us not be too finicky about details at this stage. Let us get the very concept approved FIRST.

 

[Ruby Eyes]

Well put, lorimmel, I thank you and agree with you

[Amazon_warrior]

I don't understand why Blacks/Vines/Undines need a chance to fail to alt. Just because their eggs look the same as non-alt eggs? Obviously, what would distinguish them from regular eggs would be that they would be untradable, like other things from the store, no?

I don't get this either...

 

ETA: If it's because, as someone suggested, things like hybrids could be traded, then perhaps a store egg could be distinguished from a regular cave egg by different text on the view page. Instead of "Stolen on:", it could say "Purchased on:", "Summoned on:" or summat like that (I like the summoning idea, personally).

Edited January 14, 2015 by Amazon_warrior

[Thuban]

-snipped for size-

1. I fully expect it would be, by the people who tend to design the games and such for the events. I have been specifically trying to stick to a base framework that can be built on, rather than a specific idea that we come up with out here that needs to be done a very specific way to work. This idea does not allow for "fail" chances outside of one possible issue that had come up. Some people need things set in stone before they can make decisions, and I am the type of person that looks at everything and thinks "Ok this idea has some potential, heres my idea.. what are my back up plans" My back up plan in this case is that if this idea does become something that might actually happen, then the people who would deal with it will eventually morph it to include dc lores and settings. The artists/writers for events are the ones that are creating said lore, so they are the only ones who can do that. Not us.

 

2. Im not against the idea of having passive point gain by playing the game normally. I totally support that option. Its just that I personally havent come up with a method that wouldnt be exploitable. The only thing that can stop most of the things I can think of that could be done, is to set a cap on each possible action that could gain points. Even then though, the TOTAL day/weekly cap should average out to less points than you would earn from the game. That is exactly how the alchemy event worked (you could reach the goal collecting shards, but it was quicker to just play the game).

 

3: i really have no comment on this (or the other alternate options that were suggested) because I havent really focused enough to be able to really see how they want those to work. I know the idea of how this particualr idea works, and I know which things I would change and wouldnt about the idea. Using magic to summon a specific egg, still falls under my basic concept of a store.. just with a different term. You are still saving up towards casting a spell, you are still choosing a specific dragon you are trying to get with that stored mana. Its still a "trade points in and gain something in return" aspect, which still is covered under the blanket term "store"

 

My only goal here is to give EVERYONE who wants to spend the time working towards these eggs, the ability to do so, with no competing with each other, no HAVING to play the game (except for very specific dragons). Most of those egg options I have listed, I want to see be tradable.

 

4. I want everything in the store to be breedable, so that everyone can have access to the offspring. Sterilize is something that should be a BSA, making these things sterile makes no sense (which is why neither my OP or the linked post at the bottom mentioned it, anywhere.

 

5: I'm flexible. Im cool with daily caps or weekly caps on the games. However, when it comes to cave activity, I would much rather see a daily cap there specifically.

 

6: Getting those dragons into more peoples hands, without having it need to be a game of chance is the exact goal I am aiming for. I cant guarentee they wont take a long time to earn, but just having the chance to actually earn them would be enough for most people.

 

Edit:

ETA: If it's because, as someone suggested, things like hybrids could be traded, then perhaps a store egg could be distinguished from a regular cave egg by different text on the view page. Instead of "Stolen on:", it could say "Purchased on:", "Summoned on:" or summat like that (I like the summoning idea, personally).

 

Its really funny that you say that. One of the people I have been talking to about this idea that DOESN'T play this game suggested the same thing.

Egg Stolen on -stolen from the cave itself

Egg laid on - bred

Egg Won on - the date the raffle eggs were handed out on

Egg (ourchased, summoned, whatever the mechnic is) on -the day the points were traded in for the egg.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thuban

[Lurhstaap]

3: i really have no comment on this (or the other alternate options that were suggested) because I havent really focused enough to be able to really see how they want those to work. I know the idea of how this particualr idea works, and I know which things I would change and wouldnt about the idea. Using magic to summon a specific egg, still falls under my basic concept of a store.. just with a different term. You are still saving up towards casting a spell, you are still choosing a specific dragon you are trying to get with that stored mana. Its still a "trade points in and gain something in return" aspect, which still is covered under the blanket term "store"

Yes, in broad game design terms, it's still a "store". However, for me at least, there's a HUGE experience difference between just having money, going to a 'store' with a list of available eggs, and buying one, versus having to collect different types of mana, and having a list of spells to summon eggs which I can improve over time somehow. If it's literally just a difference of calling the currency "mana" and the shop a "summon list" then yeah it's no different but I was picturing something more like what I said in my last post and some others described: re-purposing the existing mana system from this past holiday event, and using the different sorts of mana as raw material to power a spell to summon an egg. Perhaps I'd need so much Dark and Life mana to summon a Vine egg, or so much of any Change-aligned mana to summon an Avatar of Change (if Avatars are available - just using it as an example.) The need to specifically seek certain KINDS of mana, to trade for those kinds of mana, the ability to hoard mana for the art as well as just as currency... those are the things that make the mana/summoning system better than a basic 'store' IMO.

 

BTW I do think the same word, summon, should be used, if that version of the idea is used, precisely because it's already established as the term for that action. It's just that the GoN cannot be summoned by the player, only by the trio dragons.

 

Another possible system for mana gain, for what it's worth, BTW...

 

Mana would be gained through basic game actions, as follows:

 

- Each daily login would be worth a certain amount of mana. This could be neutral mana, a random type each day, or maybe assigned on a schedule by TJ - for example, maybe logging in during the month of December would get you some small amount of Ice mana each day, or something like that. Capped to one reward per day (that is, you only get the reward the first time you log into your scroll each day.)

 

For players who never log out, the first time they click a link within the DC site (for example, they click on a dragon, or go to the main cave or into a biome) since the last DC midnight, that will trigger the daily activity bonus. Basically, the first time DC detects you doing something on a given day - whether that be logging in or whatever - you get a one-time activity bonus. That's probably a better way to phrase it.

 

- Clicking your own growing dragons would grant a small amount of mana appropriate to the type of dragon clicked. Clicking the growing dragons of others would grant a slightly larger amount than clicking your own, to encourage people to help each other out in a way that is unlikely to lead to mass overclicking of people's eggs and thus sickness (using a hatchery wouldn't work, you'd have to go manually click the eggs/hatchies to get the prize.) This would possibly even lead to people being less dependent on hatcheries, fansites, and other forums to hatch their eggs. IMO this would be a good thing; I have never liked that DC relies so much on other sites just to be able to play the game. In the beginning I lost many eggs because I was not active on any other forums and didn't know how to get clicks for my stuff other than clicking it myself which is obviously not sufficient. This would significantly reduce that problem in DC's game design.

 

The thing I think is also important is that the specific kind of mana you'd get would depend on what you clicked. This would make it easier to seek specific kinds of mana without totally obviating the need to trade with others to get what you need for specific dragons. There would have to be some kind of cap to prevent people with unlimited time from outgunning people with less time, but not too low, so that dedication to the game can still be rewarded, which I think is the point of the feature IIRC? (correct me if I'm wrong there) Perhaps you can click ten scrolls' worth of growing dragons per day, plus all your own adults once each, but with a cap on the amounts of total mana farmable per day? This would reward dedication to the game by allowing people with more dragons to get more mana more easily, yet the cap would prevent people from going crazy with it, plus it would encourage more strategic choices - should I click all my Red dragons to get fire mana today or should I go for death mana from my Black Marrows?

 

Alternatively, the cap could be placed on specific types of mana, so that no matter how many Fire-aligned dragons you have or track down, you can only get so much fire mana per day. This would impose an automatic hard cap on max mana per day as well since there are only so many types of mana and once you maxed out all the types for the day you would not be able to gather more.

 

Also alternatively, adult dragons might require being used for something rather than just being clicked on. This would automatically limit mana rewards to one's own adults, but I see nothing wrong with this, since adults gain no benefit from being clicked, so no one misses out if there's a lack of incentive to click other people's adults. On the other hand, it does benefit the game to give a small reward for using its features such as breeding. Another possibility would be to simply add an action to all adult dragons - perhaps 'Harvest' or 'Search' - which you'd have to actively use to get the daily mana, rather than just clicking on the dragon. This would prevent things like people mass-breeding just to get mana, or whatnot. You could also have the mana reward from breeding be a random possible result of breeding, just like rejects: "Your dragons are not interested in mating; instead, they spent their time together looking for mana crystals. (And they found some! You have gained X amount of Y mana type. If we want a failure rate, it could say on fails, But they didn't find any.)"

 

If Mana Alchemy were also still available it would help max out your daily cap sooner but I do not think it is necessary for the system itself to work.

 

The associated "purchase" system would then work like this:

 

Beginning players would not be able to summon eggs. Egg-catching in the cave would still be the center of the game. You also would not be able to summon your first egg of a given type. If you have no Holly dragons at all, for example, you could not summon a Holly. But if you got a Holly -even a messy inbred holly - from trading or the AP during Christmas season one year, you would then be able to summon a Holly. Naturally, it would be very expensive (probably requiring butt-tons of Life and Ice mana I'd imagine) but getting the egg of the species "unlocks" that species for summoning. This would be subject to limits, I expect, for rares and especially for existing exclusives - probably only one summon per player, so that at very best, a person could have three CB Hollies. Alternatively, people who already have two CB Hollies could not summon, people with only one could summon one, and people with none could summon two, so that the existing two-per-person limit remains intact but the value of the feature isn't lost and its basic purpose of allowing people who missed out to get a chance at a CB holiday/other exclusive remains intact.

 

Commons and such, though, should probably not be subjected to hard caps; the existing egg limit on a scroll is enough to prevent too much hoarding I think. Summoned eggs would occupy the usual egg slots and summoning would not be possible if you have no open egg slots. Hatchlings would not be summonable, and summoned eggs would have the same vulnerability to sickness as normal eggs. Summoned "normal" dragons (anything normally found in the cave) should be tradeable as normal, but summoned 'exclusives' (holidays and such) should be scroll-locked as per GoNs.

 

This would not reduce the value of winning a prize in the raffle because it does not offer the chance for a custom code, nor does it allow you to just summon anything you want right away. To be able to summon a CB Hybrid egg for instance, you'd have to actually breed, trade for, or otherwise acquire a normal bred specimen of that hybrid breed first. Only after successfully raising a normal hybrid could you summon them.

 

Alternatively there could be some required number of adults of a breed raised before that breed is unlocked, rather than just letting it be one. Perhaps rarer breeds require more adults raised to be unlocked because they are more magically potent, or more difficult to handle/keep, or their complexity makes them take longer for a keeper to understand the species well enough to be able to summon eggs. Honestly, no justification is really needed - it could just be like the encyclopedia, where a flat number of dragons per unlock is stated and no reasons given.

 

Summoning itself might also be an unlockable ability, rather than just becoming available whenever the person successfully raises enough adults of a given breed for that breed to be eligible. Perhaps the person has to reach Bronze trophy to unlock summoning. To add further limits, if we feel they are required, perhaps summoning itself is available right away, but even with raising adults of a given breed, unless you have achieved a certain trophy level you cannot summon certain breeds. That way people who have been playing longer and earned higher trophies would be rewarded with the ability to unlock and summon rarer breeds.

 

For example, let's say I'm some person whose friend has been playing DC for ages and my friend invites me to join the game. Once I've joined, they breed me a gold egg and give it to me. Assuming for the sake of example that in this scenario you only have to raise one dragon to unlock summoning for that breed, I would be able to start summoning CB Golds... unless there were a rarity tier attached such as I described above. In that case, even though I had already raised a gold dragon, I would not be able to summon gold eggs until I reached, say, the silver or gold trophy, because I just was not skilled enough as a mage or a dragon keeper to be able to summon a gold egg yet. But if I went and caught, say, a caveblocker breed egg and raised it to adulthood, I would then be able to summon that breed right away even with no trophy, because there is no good reason to limit people who really want to spend mana on that.

 

The only problem with having trophy-related tiers is that people who've been already playing would start at an advantage, but we could counter that by having only eggs raised after the implementation of the feature count toward unlocking - so even if you have a dozen CB golds already, you'd have to breed or catch another gold (or however many the unlock requires) before you could start summoning more CB golds.

 

Finally, once you had achieved a high enough trophy level (or whatever other rank system we devise to tie to this, though again I recommend using existing things when at all possible) and unlocked the breed you are interested in, you would have to have, not only the right AMOUNT of mana, but also the right KINDS of mana. A Red Dragon egg would not be produced out of Ice mana - it just makes no sense. The rarer the breed is meant to be, the more expensive it would be to create - both in terms of quantity of mana and in terms of how many types of mana would be required.

 

I also would recommend that all summoning spells cost a certain amount of Neutral mana (most likely a base amount tied to the 'rarity tier' of the egg being summoned, with eggs that require no trophy to summon being cheap and eggs that require a gold trophy to summon being the most expensive), plus an amount of elemental mana where appropriate. If the dragon breed is not associated with any specific element in the Encyclopedia, neutral alone might do, but for rarer breeds like that, you might need higher amounts of neutral mana to compensate. On the other hand, more common dragons may require both neutral and elemental mana, but the total mana cost won't be as high as for a rarer nonelemental. Yet rarer elemental critters might become very expensive indeed. For example, it might only take Neutral and Fire mana to summon a red egg, but you might need Dark, Magi, and Neutral to summon a Desipis.

 

Since there are already so many limits inherent in this system, I would not advise including caps on any but the most strictly limited breeds, if they are included in the system at all; namely holidays (though Halloweens should be less limited due to being unlimited at release, whereas Christmas and Valentines should likely keep the two-CBs-per-scroll cap), prizes, and possibly alts and hybrids.

 

I would handle alts by having them require a slightly different 'mana formula' than the main color of egg, but I see nothing wrong with the fact that, once summoned, they are indistinguishable from a normal egg of that type. That's how it is with bred alts, so why is it a problem for summoned alts? If someone should abandon one, and someone else pick it up expecting a normal only to get an alt, it seems to me that's no different than what can happen now with bred alts, so it doesn't bother me. As for hybrids, that's a stickier issue. I think you'd have to first unlock both parent breeds, then unlock the hybrid breed, before it would even be possible. You might even have the ability to summon hybrids be unlockable in and of itself somehow... maybe it could be a skill purchaseable with mana, or earnable through raising a certain number or certain kinds of dragons (independent from trophy tiers)? Unsure. But in any event, once unlocked, I would recommend a limit on CB hybrids - one or two males, one or two females, plus three frozen hatchlings so that people who are completist can have their frozen S1 and frozen male and female S2s - that won't harm ratios or anything for other players so I see no reason to disallow it. But

 

Finally, I do not think there should be any overall limit on summoning specific breeds of egg as has been proposed, especially not such huge periods as six months. The many existing limits - number of egg slots, the rank/trophy tiers, the need to unlock specific breeds, the need to get enough mana to afford the breed once it's unlocked, and hard caps on total numbers of certain breed owned for the rarest ones - I see no need whatsoever to limit it further. If you can only have two CB Hollies no matter what, does it matter if the person summons them back to back, given that it will have taken them quite a long time, possibly six months or more, to earn enough mana to afford it, plus getting all the unlocks required to be able to do it, PLUS having to keep two slots open to receive the summoned eggs when the time comes, thus reducing their potential to summon or grab or breed other eggs until the existing eggs hatch? It just seems pointlessly restrictive to me, not at all necessary for balance.

 

I am not suggesting specific numbers for any of these things because that's my weakness in game design LOL I'm terrible at actually plugging in the right numbers for balance. That's for TJ and others better at math than I to work out. But the structure/framework should be sound enough (though there is always room for critique and improvement). It's just a suggestion anyway - there are plenty of other ways the thing could be done. It's what I would do if DC were my game, that's all.

 

FURTHER EDIT: I just realized that the ability to trade mana could be handled thusly. Rather than coding an entirely new script to allow transfer between people, either make it a new option under Teleport (so a given Teleport could EITHER be a dragon trade OR a mana trade), or else modify the Teleport code to work on mana instead of dragons and assign it to a different species as a new BSA. I personally favor the latter option as a way to grant another currently-not-very-desireable dragon some extra value. Plus it keeps Magi dragons from becoming excessively over-valued for having a dual fiunction. Perhaps the explanation could be that Magi dragons can only teleport living beings, whereas the other chosen species is using Telekinesis and therefore can only move nonliving objects (thus, mana)? Just another thought.

 

Species possibilities for new BSA include...

 

Pygmies? Perhaps this is a good job for Pygmies; maybe they're too small and clumsy to safely transport eggs or hatchies, but mana can be packaged and enchanted to make it safer and easier to transport in ways that are impossible to do to a living egg or baby without killing it. If this logic works for the breed creators and other players, then I would suggest that the BSA apply only to one breed of pygmy rather than all of them; some don't have the right temperament and would be more likely to try to steal any package entrusted to them, or forget where they're supposed to be taking it. There's nothing in the description of the original pygmy that suggests it would be bad at the job, but nothing that implies they'd be particularly good for it, either... Same for Dark Mysts although they are mentioned to be 'merry creatures', so perhaps more disposed to be trainable? Again, though, a stretch... hmm... Nilias seem the most likely so far, given their description says that they are very loyal once their trust is earned. This implies they might be willing to do favors for their human friend out of that sense of loyalty - such as for example carrying a bit of mana over to this other human.

 

Storms? They control weather, so they could make a package of mana as light as air and then use the wind to blow it to its destination, I guess? Still a bit of a stretch but I could see it happening. Since magic is being used the cooldown would probably be the same as for Teleport.

 

Horses? We use horses to carry cargo IRL, so why not have horse dragon mana caravans in DC? It'd be easiest to code that sort of thing I think as a Horse Dragon BSA, with the cooldown between uses representing the time it takes for the delivery to reach its destination, then for the horse dragon to return to its home and rest before being able to take another delivery. For this reason it should have a week-long cooldown rather than the three-day cooldown of Teleport.

 

Mints? They are the most peaceful of all dragons, they lack wings making it easier to strap loads to their backs, and people tend to look down on them as "large lizards". All of these traits suggest a likely breed for domestication and such uses as load-bearing. Again, if Mints are used for this under the theory that they are carrying the mana there physically, the cooldown should be longer than Teleport. Maybe even as long as two weeks, since a Mint cannot be expected to move as quickly as a Horse. (Alternatively, you could give the BSA to both breeds, but with the Horse able to carry much less mana at a time than the Mint, in exchange for its faster delivery time aka cooldown? Nah, most likely not, but it's worth throwing out there I guess?)

 

Ochredrakes? They are said to be less intelligent than other dragon species and to tame readily. This would again suggest they could be trained to carry burdens - although they might not be smart enough to allow for an exchange? (This could be a separate BSA altogether, maybe, allowing a player to send a gift of mana to another player, like Teleport can be used for a transfer or a trade. Separating the two functions would be another way to emphasize the difference between Teleport and these new functions involving mana, if indeed that is desirable.)

 

Pyrope Pyralspites? They are swift and they like gems, plus this specific breed of Pyralspite is describes as noble and loyal. It seems possible that they might be convinced to carry mana from place to place in exchange for a share of the mana, since it does, after all, take the form of pretty crystals. (This option would make the most sense if TJ/other players believe it makes sense for there to be a fee to trade mana. I am neutral on the idea; it makes sense in some economies and not in others, but since this would be a brand new economy, I have no way to judge its effect yet.)

 

Skywings? They spend most of their lives in the air and fly extremely fast. If any dragon were suitable to swift, long-distance deliveries of a physical object, besides horse dragons, this would seem to be it.

 

Dunno... anyone else have any thoughts about this? I was hoping to find a breed that might be able to do it telekinetically but no dice so far in the descriptions I've looked at.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[Ayelldee]

So these eggs would be yet more exclusives? The only way to get them would be to go to the &^#**@ 'store'? I thought we were trying to lower the numbers of exclusive dragons that only the lucky few could get.

[amthystfire]

What lorimmel said. (before it became an intimidating wall o' text, but it is still agreeable.)

 

Amazon_Warrior, Ruby Eyes--i think that the idea of the CB alts for the ones that alt when bred is a cost factor. Perhaps I can explain it this way.

 

Black egg (normal chance to alt) costs 10 dark mana (I'm going with the lore-positive system) and 10 neutral mana.

 

Black egg (50% chance to alt) costs 100 dark mana and 50 neutral mana.

 

Black Alt egg costs 500 dark mana and 250 neutral mana.

 

 

Perhaps all three options could be there. Or two (top and bottom would be my choice). Maybe someone likes blacks (in general) and doesn't mind raising eggs with the chance that they will eventually get their CB alt. Maybe they are usually a pretty lucky person, who thinks that they will get an alt on the first try. And maybe they do. On the other hand you have the unlucky people who plod away at summoning a GoN and despite doing it at every available opportunity, they still haven't managed one. (I just failed again, too, but I did summon one once, right after the ratios were shifted.) They would go for the guarantee, despite it being 25 x more expensive. I would vote for more options rather than less, so I would say put all the options in (at whatever seemed fair to price them at, I just threw numbers at it illustratively) and let the people buying the dragons sort it out. (obviously if there is something that isn't selling despite there being lots of people with plenty of mana out there to do so, it could come down, but it wouldn't have to.)

Edited January 14, 2015 by amthystfire

[Lurhstaap]

So these eggs would be yet more exclusives? The only way to get them would be to go to the &^#**@ 'store'? I thought we were trying to lower the numbers of exclusive dragons that only the lucky few could get.

No, the eggs would not be new exclusive breeds. they would be the existing breeds from the cave, plus, possibly, alts, hybrids, and holidays, maybe even prizes. It's the opposite of what you're thinking, an attempt to reduce the excusiveness of existing exclusives, and also a way to add a way to advance in the game that relies on dedication to the game on a long-term basis rather than on being able to F5-grind and having a good connection (normal egg grabbing) or pure dumb luck (the raffle).

[Thuban]

So these eggs would be yet more exclusives? The only way to get them would be to go to the &^#**@ 'store'? I thought we were trying to lower the numbers of exclusive dragons that only the lucky few could get.

No, they are not "more exclusives". They are the exact same things the prize winners already have access to. The only ones that would require a person to /specifically/ play the games are CB holidays and CB Prizes (if they are included). This is specifically because THOSE dragons, would not be tradable. They have an established limit (with holidays, up to the cap you are already allowed is purchasable. If you own one, you can only ever buy one. If it dies, you will never get another cb one without winning the raffle. With prizes, you will only ever be able to purchase 1-2 of each sprite, ever. If it dies, or is released you dont get another chance)

 

 

amthystfire: thats a perfectly reasonable option. What I was trying to explain earlier in the thread is a bit more difficult to convey, because i have not asked for permission to share the private offsite conversation I had about the alts with TJ. I dont share private messages without permission.

 

 

Lurhstaap: I could be fine with that, however, again, it is highly dependant on those people who would actually be putting it together. I'm not shooting down the idea, eventually I will get a post together to cover that concept better, to link in the first post (and in the linked post as well). It doesnt have to be a store, it doesnt have to be a spell.. it doesnt have to be anyhing specific, until there is a reason to be specific. It doesnt NEED to be anything specific, until the world lore builders decide they want to work it into their lore. The framework is there. Do these things, to earn these other things, that are somehow traded or converted into an egg.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thuban

[Lurhstaap]

I understand. I'm just throwing my ideas into the ring for whatever they're worth. I went back and edited my post significantly to clarify and add other concepts, also. I did my best not to add worldbuilding elements except where they seemed unavoidable - for example, when deciding how much a given egg should cost to summon, it only made sense to refer to the elements that have already been assigned to them in existing DC lore. Basically, where references to lore seemed unavoidable, I tried to use existing DC lore rather than inventing stuff. The mana system already exists, the trophy system already exists... et cetera. I used to have to design new features like this at my old job so it's something I have some practice at, which is why I wanted to try to help, but there's no guarantee TJ or other players will necessarily like my ideas or think they make any sense, after all. But it's always worth a shot. ^^

Edited January 14, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[Thuban]

I understand. I'm just throwing my ideas into the ring for whatever they're worth. I went back and edited my post significantly to clarify and add other concepts, also. I did my best not to add worldbuilding elements except where they seemed unavoidable - for example, when deciding how much a given egg should cost to summon, it only made sense to refer to the elements that have already been assigned to them in existing DC lore. Basically, where references to lore seemed unavoidable, I tried to use existing DC lore rather than inventing stuff. The mana system already exists, the trophy system already exists... et cetera. I used to have to design new features like this at my old job so it's something I have some practice at, which is why I wanted to try to help, but there's no guarantee TJ or other players will necessarily like my ideas or think they make any sense, after all. But it's always worth a shot. ^^

I like the idea (i saw the edits and am still reading through) I'm just a firm believer in the KISS (keep it simple silly) method when it comes to suggestions. I will get all the other suggestions into one post, probably later today after I get my errands out of the way). Hopefully that will please those people who hate the idea of a "store".

 

 

 

 

I dont mind you guys pitching other options, I really dont. I just worry that these other options will start spiraling while people are working out the kinks of it, and I'm not comfortable trying to keep track of whose ideas do what, or answering questions regarding those things (such as sterilization coming up multiple times, when it had nothing to do with MY suggestion, but an offhand comment someone made). If the thread starts getting busy, it will get harder and harder for new people coming into the thread, to know exactly what is going on.

 

I have horrible organization skills, a very short attention span (adjusting to new meds) and other things working against me (which is why i never make public posts I have to maintain )

 

If you guys are going to pitch alternate options for how the "store" framework could work, I only ask that you guys be on hand to answer the questions regarding your specific options, and that you give me a link with a breakdown of everything being covered for your options, that I can easily link for references. That way, if the different ideas DO start to spiral out of control and confuse people, the post that explains the exact mechanic you are proposing can be linked quickly. This would help me out a lot (trying to track it all myself would cause me a pretty severe panic attack )

 

[stagazer_7]

Not everyone is interested in participating in a raffle. I'd like to have a choice to earn my prize, be it a CB Hellhorse or a Tinsel, that's why this idea appeals to me so much and think it has potential of becoming a great addition to the raffle system and the game in total.

 

What prizes would I like to see?

CB Shimmers (limit 2 per scroll, per color variant)

CB Tinsels (limit 2 per scroll, per color variant)

CB Hybrids (no limits)

CB Holidays (xmas & v'day, limit 2 per scroll)

CB ALTS or color variants that are breed only (no limits)

 

NO mini-game exclusive prize (it's apparent to me that the majority of folk object to this)

NO Spriters ALTs

NO Guardians of Nature (Avatars are hybrids)

NO black Sweetlings

NO Frills

NO old Pinks

NO metallics

NO unbreedables

 

Should new 'prize' dragons be added, I'd want them available too with a 2 per scroll limit, per color variant if any.

These are my exact thoughts - in addition, I'd also like to see CB Haloweens available with no limits, since their number is not limited during the original release - if they're fairly pricy and only available during specific time periods, that would put a stopper in how many dragons a player can get. Frills have a chance of being released in Cave, so if they are, I'll look for them there. Same goes for Old Pinks.

 

Also a firm no to any way of auctioning eggs in the store, that would only put players under pressure to gather as many points as fast as possible to build up a large pool of points out of fear that someone will outbid them when they're trying to get a dragon they like. A fixed price is simple and clean, why complicate everything by having players compete with each other? Please no DragonBay.

 

I also don't really care for the suggestion that minigame obtained Prizes would be unbreedable - what would be the point of paying an insane amount of points to get a sterile CB Shimmer/Tin? Such a dragon would be completely useless to many players, especially those that hope to create lineages with them.

 

I also like the game aspects cyradis4, mystfit and Lurhstaap suggested - gather mana to create a magical item, a book, maybe a dragon whistle... and use it to summon a dragon of your choice. It's still the same store system only phrased in a way that would fit nicely into DC lore. But that is a detail best left for the DC design team to work out later when the core suggestion is approved.

 

Because face it if you could have the Holy Grail, (CB Holly), why would you pick a CB hybrid?

I would. I'd pick a CB Hellhorse over a Holly anytime, anyday, because I like them better. Guess I'm just weird like that. *dreams about pretty lineages* And when I had my fill of them, then I could always go for a Holly. That'd what's great about this, there is zero pressure, I can choose to play the game... or not, the dragons's aren't going anywhere and I can get to it at my own leisure.

Edited January 14, 2015 by stagazer_7

[amthystfire]

[...]

 

amthystfire: thats a perfectly reasonable option. What I was trying to explain earlier in the thread is a bit more difficult to convey, because i have not asked for permission to share the private offsite conversation I had about the alts with TJ. I dont share private messages without permission.

 

[...]

that's fine, I was just synthesizing ideas from the available information. More ideas don't hurt (even if they run contrary to the information that you have privately. Or parallel. Or tangential) they help to build the box of "this is what most players want to see" and if we independently come up with the same thing that TJ did, it just confirms that he is on the right track.

[Lurhstaap]

I like the idea (i saw the edits and am still reading through) I'm just a firm believer in the KISS (keep it simple silly) method when it comes to suggestions. I will get all the other suggestions into one post, probably later today after I get my errands out of the way). Hopefully that will please those people who hate the idea of a "store".

 

 

 

 

I dont mind you guys pitching other options, I really dont. I just worry that these other options will start spiraling while people are working out the kinks of it, and I'm not comfortable trying to keep track of whose ideas do what, or answering questions regarding those things (such as sterilization coming up multiple times, when it had nothing to do with MY suggestion, but an offhand comment someone made). If the thread starts getting busy, it will get harder and harder for new people coming into the thread, to know exactly what is going on.

 

I have horrible organization skills, a very short attention span (adjusting to new meds) and other things working against me (which is why i never make public posts I have to maintain )

 

If you guys are going to pitch alternate options for how the "store" framework could work, I only ask that you guys be on hand to answer the questions regarding your specific options, and that you give me a link with a breakdown of everything being covered for your options, that I can easily link for references. That way, if the different ideas DO start to spiral out of control and confuse people, the post that explains the exact mechanic you are proposing can be linked quickly. This would help me out a lot (trying to track it all myself would cause me a pretty severe panic attack )

Oh, definitely! That's one reason I tried to rely on existing game features and lore as much as possible in mine; I'm just terrible at being concise so I took a lot of words to describe a system that, in implementation and practice, would be relatively simple, because most of the pieces are already in place. A lot of the required code could be done by modifying existing code, at least in theory, though sometimes that isn't possible. Still, it's not as complex as I made it look. I'm trying to get better at that but obviously I haven't made much progress!

 

I completely sympathize! I will do my best to keep an eye on this thread from now on so I can answer questions and such. That's also why I kept editing that same post instead of making a new one when new ideas hit me - keeping all of my own contributions in one place as much as possible will keep things clearer in the thread. At least I hope it will! x.x

[Imzadi]

Mana would be gained through basic game actions, as follows:

 

- Each daily login would be worth a certain amount of mana.

And what about people who never log out...I do know a fair number who don't.

[amthystfire]

And what about people who never log out...I do know a fair number who don't.

A script could be written to include 'first action,' I'm pretty sure.

[lorimmel]

And what about people who never log out...I do know a fair number who don't.

 

I am one of the people who never log out. But I'm more than willing to make an effort to log out and log in every day, if this is the mechanics we choose for all these great things to happen :3

[JavaTigress]

I am one of the people who never log out. But I'm more than willing to make an effort to log out and log in every day, if this is the mechanics we choose for all these great things to happen :3

Yeah, me too.

I usually leave myself logged in when I shut off the interwebs cus I am the only one in my house that plays DC and, honestly, I am too lazy to log in everytime I want to check in, BUT...

 

IF I could earn points for Holidays or even a PRIZE by doing something as simple as that, why then... I'd sure do it.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Silverswift