Increase the raffle winners pool

[_Sin_]

Also - revolutionary thought - I'd rather have more general releases during the rest of the year. We already miss them in several months; PLEASE let's not add yet another. Amazingly, regular releases mean more people can actually get some new stuff and get on with some breeding !

Yes, yes, yes! I know that TJ didn't seem enthusiast at all of the idea of having a release between the Holidays and the Valentines but I still have a (tiny, tiny) glimmer of hope. Even if that doesn't happen, I hope that we will have more releases. When we are collecting, breeding, excitedly discussing new sprites, we focus less on the raffle, on the prizes, on that particular type of madness.

[Starscream]

the money printing usually is not the problem of the first gen owners gifting the prizes out. That comes with the second gen and up owners. As soon as people get the gift they trade off the offspring - and sometimes will trade off that gift.

 

So having more winners will not prevent people from trying to gouge others. I think to prevent the prices being so astronomical is to stop offering astronomical prices. I saw someone the other day trying to get unbreedables for a vampire calling the vampire rare. I'd not pay that. I laughed.

 

I had people offer me multiple CB's for a third gen Shimmer. I accepted it, why shouldn't I? I asked for best offer. Best offer could include 4CB vampires - I like vampires.

 

Increasing the amount I am fine with, gives everyone, myself included, a bit more of a chance to have a CB and do with it as they want. But for the most part I do not see it stopping the value that much. On another note, Tinsels and Shimmers Share the gold's description. Which suggests they are essentially rares like the golds. Adding more could mean a brief spike in breeding success, then it levels off. The level off may happen faster with more owners.

 

Increase may be grand, but I do not see it solving any of the problems.

 

 

Edit:

Excluding previous winners is not the way to go. I believe that has been shot down faster than a clay pigeon. Excluding users from the pool is not fair what-so-ever. a couple people might have won twice, but know what, it's a very low chance of that happening. Good on them. Not so good on those who'd demand to deny it.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Starscream

[Nalyua]

But why do they ? Because we decide they are the only thing we want.

 

I do actually have a 2 gen - and I haven't found it bought me anything - I did once offer a 3 gen egg from it and it wasn't accepted. I don't actually wish to use it for trading and (before anyone asks) nor do I accept requests, so just don't ! I gift them. I only tried the trade once because it was for something far more common but something I needed.

Well if it's the only thing someone has not collected yet. This type of game also encourages the collecting-idea.

 

It's the same reason why people fret over the Black Sweetlings, the collection feels incomplete. This is a perfectly natural view.

 

Again: I do not think annoying winners is the right way to go about this. The main reason why I never asked someone directly (plus I sadly had to witness how bad one felt over being harassed).

 

Do I want a Gen 2 ? Hell yes! Will I go and annoy someone about it? No way!

 

More CBs offer 2 chances for me though:

 

1) winning myself and creating the Daydream-line I want

 

2) More CBs may go to someone who may want other things in return for a baby, things that I am able to offer/afford

[KuroYukia]

I'm sorry you had that experience. :/

 

Thing about prize owners though, as I pointed out to someone else in a PM, is the only thing they have in common is owning a CB prize dragon. In all other respects, prize owners are as diverse as the community they're drawn from; i.e., this one. So just as there's a spectrum from wonderful generous players who'd gift you anything to people who'd trade their own granny, you see the same thing on a smaller scale with the winners. :s Regrettably, because the number of prize owners are few in number, the examples of the more visible ones tend to be applied to the group as a whole, whether or not that's deserved.

That's why I don't judge them as a whole. It's no better then being a racist or basing a religion on one person. I'm still hunting for a 2nd gen, that person thankfully didn't do much to me emotionally just remind me there's sour people everywhere

 

I can name a handful of good people who help me out and we gift each other all the time, but I can also point out bad people

 

If I win a CB I plan on changing the standard least with me. I'll give to friends and set up a decent trading system based on your scroll offerings. Because of people who have made me realize there needs to be more good people

 

 

Though back on subject >.< seem to go off topic , the whole more raffle idea am not agreeing to, but there does need to be a middle ground.

 

Not everyone can win one, that's settled already even if spiriters have offered.

Not everyone will be able to pay for 2nd gens some players have.

 

Those are the two issues people seem to have problems me, me included at the moment.

[JavaTigress]

That's why I don't judge them as a whole. It's no better then being a racist or basing a religion on one person. I'm still hunting for a 2nd gen, that person thankfully didn't do much to me emotionally just remind me there's sour people everywhere

 

I can name a handful of good people who help me out and we gift each other all the time, but I can also point out bad people

 

If I win a CB I plan on changing the standard least with me. I'll give to friends and set up a decent trading system based on your scroll offerings. Because of people who have made me realize there needs to be more good people

 

 

Though back on subject >.< seem to go off topic , the whole more raffle idea am not agreeing to, but there does need to be a middle ground.

 

Not everyone can win one, that's settled already even if spiriters have offered.

Not everyone will be able to pay for 2nd gens some players have.

 

Those are the two issues people seem to have problems me, me included at the moment.

Sensible points.

 

Ultimately, a person can really ONLY ever control their own behavior and choices.

 

As I said before, I am in full favor of their being more winners.

Do I believe it will solve ALL problems associated with raffles? NO!

 

I think there will be some degree of trouble with it regardless. That being said, i think it WOULD reduce the dissatisfaction all the way around. I am not sure that there is one magic fix to all the trouble that results from the raffle... I think it isn't purely the raffle that is to blame, to be honest, but at least PARTLY it is human nature.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes, yes, yes! I know that TJ didn't seem enthusiast at all of the idea of having a release between the Holidays and the Valentines but I still have a (tiny, tiny) glimmer of hope. Even if that doesn't happen, I hope that we will have more releases. When we are collecting, breeding, excitedly discussing new sprites, we focus less on the raffle, on the prizes, on that particular type of madness.

YES YES to you too

[Cireth]

I think the main problem here is harassment of the winners not how many prizes there are.

 

It could be solved by TJ allowing winners to start threads for gifting lists (if they want to gift) and allowing them to report people who harass them.

 

Personally I doubt I'm going to win but I would be over the moon if I did and I would only gift to people who swore that they wouldn't tell anyone else I'd won.

[milkaq66]

Ok, at first sight, i thought: yes why not increasing the prizes? Might increase my chance to get one too.

And let's be honest...i bet the majority of us are daydreaming of the possibilities we'd have, if we'd win a CB prize...

 

But...now there are some points that let me think, i'd rather leave it as it is.

First of all: if TJ states that " the win rate is satisfactory" in his opinion, i do believe him.

Second: the increase of the CB Prize breeding pool would probably only result in some more CB Prize owners swaping for the new released 2nd gen Prizes...Not that i blame them for that! I'd probably do the same.

NOTE: i'm NOT saying that all Prize owners are greedy or just swap with each other!

I've been lucky enough to get on a list of one without paying high amounts of precious eggs (although that dragon is a BAD breeder and i'm still waiting) and i stumbled about a really nice CB Prize owner by pure chance ( i gifted him something from his wishlist as a glomp and out of the blue he asked me, if i wanted a 2nd gen. I didn't even KNOW he was a CB Prize owner)

 

Raffle seems to always create some kind of madness, regardless how many prizes are given out, most the people freak out and they run to get descendents of those as soon as possible.

 

[Dubious]

even cheating to get 2nd gens by trading multimetals for them in the first place.

Wait...what!! I got my 2nd gen shimmer by working my 'butt' off. I stalked the Cave to get the multiple CB metals that I traded for my 2nd gen, uptraded until I owned a 3rd gen shimmer to add to the mix and then waited MONTHS for the CB shimmer to go through it's breeding list until it got to me and actually bred a shimmer.

 

I got lucky, I benefited from the 'Metal Boom' that happened in early 2013 that saw an increase in the number of CB Metals, otherwise I would not have had a hope in hell of getting CB metals. I fail to see how this is 'cheating' in any way shape or form.

 

As it is I utterly support an increase in prizes given out in the raffle, the more people who win, the less stress put on winners. The more lineages to collect, the more people want to hang around the site and collect lineages rather then getting bored and leaving. In my opinion it is win all round to have more prizes awarded.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Dubious

[Amazon_warrior]

I think the main problem here is harassment of the winners not how many prizes there are.

 

It could be solved by TJ allowing winners to start threads for gifting lists (if they want to gift) and allowing them to report people who harass them.

 

Personally I doubt I'm going to win but I would be over the moon if I did and I would only gift to people who swore that they wouldn't tell anyone else I'd won.

Regarding gifting threads (and "prize offer threads") - I think I've seen one owner do a gifting thread in the Breeding forum, dunno if it's still active. There are a few issues that I would be concerned about, though: harassment of users on gifting lists (I'm less cagey now, but when I first got LC I kept all my 2G lists strictly private because of the amount of hype and hassle even prospective 2G owners were experiencing) and the danger of never-ending rolling lists. It can really grind you down to feel like you're *never* getting to the end of a list, and as soon as you've finished one you're starting another. It's depressing.

 

Regarding a place where people can make offers for 2G Prize dragons - we have one, it's called the Rare Trading Centre! Or any of the other numerous trade threads, according to what one might be looking for. There are so many trades that list "2G prize" as an option that I mentally edit that out now.

 

And people are allowed (and indeed actively encouraged) to report harassment, it's just that they need to be aware that they can and have the confidence in the site staff that they will be listened to and the offending parties duly punished.

[JavaTigress]

Regarding gifting threads (and "prize offer threads") - I think I've seen one owner do a gifting thread in the Breeding forum, dunno if it's still active. There are a few issues that I would be concerned about, though: harassment of users on gifting lists (I'm less cagey now, but when I first got LC I kept all my 2G lists strictly private because of the amount of hype and hassle even prospective 2G owners were experiencing) and the danger of never-ending rolling lists. It can really grind you down to feel like you're *never* getting to the end of a list, and as soon as you've finished one you're starting another. It's depressing.

 

Regarding a place where people can make offers for 2G Prize dragons - we have one, it's called the Rare Trading Centre! Or any of the other numerous trade threads, according to what one might be looking for. There are so many trades that list "2G prize" as an option that I mentally edit that out now.

 

And people are allowed (and indeed actively encouraged) to report harassment, it's just that they need to be aware that they can and have the confidence in the site staff that they will be listened to and the offending parties duly punished.

True... however, perhaps a thread, a trading place SPECIFICALLY for prizes would be wise? Seeing as one of the main complaints and reasons for this suggestion is that people feel like the prizes and requests for them in trade drown out everything else?

[Fuzzbucket]

True... however, perhaps a thread, a trading place SPECIFICALLY for prizes would be wise? Seeing as one of the main complaints and reasons for this suggestion is that people feel like the prizes and requests for them in trade drown out everything else?

ACTUALLY - excluding them from other trade threads might help. (Just as the EG thread has had to put a stop to people trading 2 gen metals/prizes !)

 

As of June 26, 2014 a temporary restriction is being put in place to disallow 2nd gen trades of golds, silvers, coppers, prizes and avatars. Please DO NOT offer these as trades in this thread. This is also not the place to offer trades of CB dragons. (these have been disallowed for some time, but it bears repeating)

 

The purpose of this thread is to facilitate building Even Gen lineages. It has not been fulfilling this purpose, being overrun with low gen rare trades. Even Gen rares higher than 2nd gen are still allowed.

[Amazon_warrior]

True... however, perhaps a thread, a trading place SPECIFICALLY for prizes would be wise? Seeing as one of the main complaints and reasons for this suggestion is that people feel like the prizes and requests for them in trade drown out everything else?

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a thread for Prize haves only, but then I didn't think it would be a bad idea to have a thread for trading unbreedables either and that got shot down sharpish by the mods. (Wasn't my thread, I just saw it and thought it was a good idea.)

[cyradis4]

ACTUALLY - excluding them from other trade threads might help. (Just as the EG thread has had to put a stop to people trading 2 gen metals/prizes !)

 

You'd have to exclude them from the "have" and "want" category both, to do any good.

 

And many will still only trade for Prizes.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Vhale]

I greatly disliked the even-gen trade thread change. It was the best place I had to get 2nd gens, as more people there seemed willing to breed and swap. I stopped reading it entirely after that. Luckily, there is a thread in the breeding section that seems to have taken it's purpose.

[Fiona]

ACTUALLY - excluding them from other trade threads might help. (Just as the EG thread has had to put a stop to people trading 2 gen metals/prizes !)

 

The even gens thread took that step because the even gens thread was being dominated by rare trades instead of being a friendly place for people with all sorts of even gen dragons to ask for stuff or trade their pretties. It's worked, to a large extent.

 

One of the reasons it was necessary is because of people cross posting - that is, posting their same trade for shiny stuff in multiple threads. This inflates the trade threads, making everyone's trade harder to see. Making a thread just for prize trades would help only if the metallic trading thread and rare trading thread then disallowed offers of prize trades in their threads. Otherwise it just becomes another thread to post the same trades again.

 

I'm not sure I've posted in this thread yet. I have to think about it some more to post an opinion on whether increasing the breeding pool of low gen prizes would solve the issue.

[Syphoneira]

But what about steering the people who are - whatever happens - going to want to try immediately to get on any new CB Prize trade lists FAST, before they fill, into a specific thread *where the people wanting to get on such lists can post their offers*, rather than flooding new winners with requests, and the *new winners can select whatever offer(s) appeal(s) to them at arms-length*, rather than having everyone sending directly to the new winners?

 

This seems to be a major issue causing much stress to many new CB Prize owners, and I'd think that anything which might address at least part of the problem might help?

 

Also, that way the new winners don't have to publicly post trading lists.

 

 

Edit: I do mean a specific, although perhaps temporary thread, (the 1st month, perhaps, to get lists organized?) so that that those ordinarily sending immediate PMs to try to get on lists wouldn't reject the notion due to their posts getting immediately buried in other ones on the regular trade threads.

 

The people who most often get on lists have done so because of initiating personal contact evidently often overwhelming to new CB Prize owners when en masse (I should think to anyone, considering the numbers,) but this might be presented as a compromise where their posts would be specifically available to any CB Prize owners interested in trading, especially if preferring not to 'out' themselves.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Syphoneira

[JavaTigress]

You'd have to exclude them from the "have" and "want" category both, to do any good.

 

And many will still only trade for Prizes.

 

Cheers!

C4.

True, but might it not make it easier to separate out the other stuff from therm, that way?

[Fiona]

Syphoneira, the problem of new prize winners and lists will persist until new prize winners learn that keeping such lists is a bad idea. If people find that there are no lists to get on, then that issue goes away.

 

New prizes winners should understand that making a list in the first place will place them under tremendous pressure. They should "just say no", post trades where appropriate when they have an egg to trade, take whatever offer appeals to them, and that would be that. No lists, no IOUs. Just, "I have an egg." and go from there.

[AnanoKimi]

Giving everyone everything does not make everyone happy. It never has, it never will, so giving everyone a prize will just be another meh that no one will care about as they turn their attentions to something else that they can't cant and "really need".

 

Scamming became an issue of teleport and trading, the moment teleport and trading became a thing, so did scamming. It wont change, and it is something that one should always be wary about when trading, negotiating, and most of all doing IOU's. There is a reason TJ and everyone else doesn't condone them and its because it sets you up for a scam.

 

As much as gifting and giving is a nice thing, I just really want to stress that its not a bad thing for those that choose to trade shinies amongst themselves. If they want to trade with only prize owners, thats their right. If they want to trade with only friends, thats their right, and we are no one to demonize them for being lucky and doing what they want with their dragons. No one is here to breed for anyone but ourselves, if we decide to breed for others that is our choice not a law.

 

I don't have to gift to anyone, I could breed every single shiny for my self and my self only and that would be my right. Demonizing me is no better than demanding outright I breed for everyone else because I have to. Thats not how the game works.

 

As much as I support the idea of more winners, I really do, I also want people to realize that not a singel winner is chosen so they can breed for you. If they choose to breed for the masses, great, if not we have no right to complain, or demonize them.

 

Also Prize winners are not elites, I don't see every prize winner walking around this site like they are big money only trading with those that they think are worthy. If thats how YOU see them then that is your perception and opinion, not a fact. So please refrain from demeaning or demonizing prize owners by saying its a bad thing that they trade for Metallics, rares, or for other gen 2.

 

[EDIT:]

 

I totally agree with you Fiona. 100% That is where Amazons guide should kick in and hopefully cover that if it doesnt already.

Edited January 8, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[Syphoneira]

Syphoneira, the problem of new prize winners and lists will persist until new prize winners learn that keeping such lists is a bad idea. If people find that there are no lists to get on, then that issue goes away.

 

New prizes winners should understand that making a list in the first place will place them under tremendous pressure. They should "just say no", post trades where appropriate when they have an egg to trade, take whatever offer appeals to them, and that would be that. No lists, no IOUs. Just, "I have an egg." and go from there.

 

 

 

Very sensible and true, although some people do like to keep lists...

 

You should be posting THAT advice all over, though, as following this would help a lot of people.

[cyradis4]

Syphoneira, the problem of new prize winners and lists will persist until new prize winners learn that keeping such lists is a bad idea. If people find that there are no lists to get on, then that issue goes away.

 

New prizes winners should understand that making a list in the first place will place them under tremendous pressure. They should "just say no", post trades where appropriate when they have an egg to trade, take whatever offer appeals to them, and that would be that. No lists, no IOUs. Just, "I have an egg." and go from there.

We agree. *goes into shock*

 

No, really, I totally agree, and that's what Amazon_Warrior's guide was saying, and why I think having it front and center before the prizes are even announced is a good thing.

 

Because people start trying to get on lists the instant that its announced that the winners have been *drawn*, well before the eggs are handed out.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Amazon_warrior]

Syphoneira, the problem of new prize winners and lists will persist until new prize winners learn that keeping such lists is a bad idea. If people find that there are no lists to get on, then that issue goes away.

 

New prizes winners should understand that making a list in the first place will place them under tremendous pressure. They should "just say no", post trades where appropriate when they have an egg to trade, take whatever offer appeals to them, and that would be that. No lists, no IOUs. Just, "I have an egg." and go from there.

So much this.

[_Sin_]

I'm a tiny bit concerned about this whole suggestion becoming a "us vs them", "winners vs not". Furthermore, I agree that, in many cases, the trading problem is more visible with the owners of 2nd gens. A bit like: "I invested heavily, now is time to recoup my investment." Anyway, none of my business.

 

Going back to the topic... what if the request was, not only to increase the number of raffle winners but also to have only Tinsels and Shimmers as prizes, no more HM? People could always choose to "downgrade" to HM.

/me hides under desk and waits for cabbage

 

Edit:

I fully agree with Fiona. Maybe Amazon_Warrior's guide could strongly suggest that?

Edited January 8, 2015 by _Sin_

[cyradis4]

I'm a tiny bit concerned about this whole suggestion becoming a "us vs them", "winners vs not". Furthermore, I agree that, in many cases, the trading problem is more visible with the owners of 2nd gens. A bit like: "I invested heavily, now is time to recoup my investment." Anyway, none of my business.

 

Going back to the topic... what if the request was, not only to increase the number of raffle winners but also to have only Tinsels and Shimmers as prizes, no more HM? People could always choose to "downgrade" to HM.

/me hides under desk and waits for cabbage

Why no more HMs?

 

I think HMs are needed as a buffer zone, so that prizes don't have to be re-drawn so much. I think part of the problem last year was that nearly all of the HMs and some of the Bronzes had to be re-drawn, or some such nonsense. Had their been enough HMs to replace the prize winners that didn't respond, only the HMs would have been re-drawn, which would have moved prizes out of the center of attention faster.

 

Cheers!

C4.