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_Sin_

Increase the raffle winners pool

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10 in a userbase which is estimated to be 8k+ users (from the Christmas tree event) is a miniscule amount no matter how you look at it.

 

So I stand by my point:

Even if every CB owner was breeding (which they are not and are not obliged to, and anyone who assumes that every one is going to is silly) there would still be far, far too few of the CBs to take any pressure off trades. And its the prizes effect on trading and the forums (drama) which is causing so many people to react negatively to the raffle. Last year took a good bit of pressure off, but other things happened that soured people.

 

So! I still think a doubling (and an uneventful, fairly quick raffle) will help a lot, and maybe next year less people will be disgusted with the month of January on DC.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I'm not saying doubling the prize winner numbers shouldnt happen, but I am saying that it could very well be a moot point to double them when the same reasons the first few left is the reasons the new winners might leave. Whats the point in having 100 eastern gold winners when maybe half or more might not even choose a Shimmer for fear of pressure and those who do might not breed them to avoid the hounding?

 

Aside from fixing winner numbers, we need to fix player attitudes of entitlement due to their losses. we need to educate the mass and let them know that the reason they can't get a shiny is because they drive potential shiny breeders away. The mass scares them, intimidates them, makes them never wanna come back.

 

Upping winner numbers wont fix user attitude. Users taking the time to bring awareness that Prize winners and owners owe them nothing and that they should be polite, not badger prize owners, not blame the raffle for the fact that they did not win and that What they want should not dictate what a prize breeder does with their baby.

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Yep. In any group, some will stay, some will leave, some will breed, and some will laugh their rumps off at the non-winners.

 

So to get more who breed happily... you add a bigger random group. More will leave, more will stay, more will laugh, and... more will breed.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Honestly, from what I see every year it goes as follows:

>People get hyped for prize raffle

>People ask for increase so they have a better chance of getting a prize

>Prizes go out

>Those who don't get prizes either A) go on their merry way and hope for next year cool.gif get salty and request the remove the prize program entirely or C) swarm prize winners with messages.

 

Honestly if I won a prize I'd probably keep it to myself until the blow up cools down and delete any unwanted messages until I either wanted to trade or had someone I wanted to gift. I can't fathom how a pixel game gets people so salty.

 

Of course, that being said I feel like the people who are most demanding tend to be newer users. The ones on trade who caught a dino or paper egg and want a CB gold for it because they haven't grasped what the market is like. Or people who think they know the market so well that they have a PERFECT trade set up that you obviously can't refuse.

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Thousands of members pass through here, so we get all kinds of different people, lol.

 

If we get upset over the odd case of passing rudeness or whatever, we're going to spoil our own fun for ourselves.

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Why they left is the reason there is such a small number of CB's to work with in the first place. See thats what is not taken into account. The CB numbers don't drop just out of the blue. We didnt go from 10 Gold shimmers to 3 for no reason. Some were frozen some left due to pressure, some refuse to breed to avoid that pressure, the rest are left to deal with it.

 

So it is important because if we can avoid the reasons why they left, we might not have to worry about a decrease in available breeding CBs and we wont have to bug TJ with something that he shouldnt be bugged with in the first place :3

You seem to be assuming that all those CB Gold Shimmers'owners left because of the pressure. Since I've been around I've seen tons of people leaving, some of them are real life friends or acquaintances. And the ones I knew personally left just because... life happens. A more demanding job. Different interests. Etc. Etc. Etc. Life happens to prizes'owners too.

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You seem to be assuming that all those CB Gold Shimmers'owners left because of the pressure. Since I've been around I've seen tons of people leaving, some of them are real life friends or acquaintances. And the ones I knew personally left just because... life happens. A more demanding job. Different interests. Etc. Etc. Etc. Life happens to prizes'owners too.

I didn't think about listing every thing but yes that too tends to happen. Some come back, some leave, some stay away, etc. Assuming that more people will immediately equal more breeding and more prize babies is setting your self up for disappointment when some leave a few months in, some leave due to pressure, some don't breed and some don't even choose a prize dragon to begin with.

 

Again I am not against it, I'm all for it. The more winners the merrier~! I am not for the illusion that this will be the bigger fix to all our problems when the problem is the attitude of collectors and lineage builders who hound winners. More winners will also equal more people that will get hounded. trust me, this idea wont fix that issue.

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Again I am not against it, I'm all for it. The more winners the merrier~! I am not for the illusion that this will be the bigger fix to all our problems when the problem is the attitude of collectors and lineage builders who hound winners. More winners will also equal more people that will get hounded. trust me, this idea wont fix that issue.

I'm not saying that this would be THE fix for anything. I'm hoping for improvements on a more generic issue.

Maybe could be an idea to start a topic, if doesn't exist, on how to fix/deal/mitigate attitudes.

 

Edit: https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0&hl=Harassment Doesn't this address your concerns?

Edited by _Sin_

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I'm not saying that this would be THE fix for anything. I'm hoping for improvements on a more generic issue.

Maybe could be an idea to start a topic, if doesn't exist, on how to fix/deal/mitigate attitudes.

There is really no real way to deal with that other than education of the userbase. I would like maybe some kind of mass PM a few days before raffle winners are announced where TJ or the mods remind users that harassment is against the rules, that with raffle winners soon to be announced, to please practice patience, courtesy, and understanding. If they could add a side note saying that all rude behaviour should be reported as well as linking to the rules and maybe even Amazons guide being a Prize owner. Something like this should hopefully bring about some awareness as well as really demonstrate that the Mods are and will be keeping an eye out for rude behaviour from unruly users to help with the overwhelming mass of people that w might message new winners.

 

Yes I do hope the increased winner pool allows for some alleviation of the issues we are having while the other topics such as the boost bsa or the multi clutch bsa are talked over and hopefully put into effect some time soon.

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I'd be a lot more worried about the nice, invested players. Rude players dont make you feel half as guilty as the nice ones that you should have turned down. In my experience, it would be a lit easier for new winners to only have to deal with rude people. Most if the times, the nice players also shortchange you in terms of actual value, selling 3gs more expensive than what they paid for in the first place.

 

Its those that break trading. There is at least one such example discussing heavily within these prize threads, while owning many 2gs and still going on how its not enough. More CBs would just increase the hoard of those!

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Yep. In any group, some will stay, some will leave, some will breed, and some will laugh their rumps off at the non-winners.

 

So to get more who breed happily... you add a bigger random group. More will leave, more will stay, more will laugh, and... more will breed.

 

Cheers!

C4.

It is still quite frustrating for many non winners who cannot afford several CB Metallics or whatever.

 

I have been trying to lay my hand on a second gen with a Daydream since Prizes were introduced. And I am no closer to achieving this than I was when I began.

 

I ran into a person who scammed me in the process of getting my first shimmer.

 

As it stands the only ever chance I see to get this dream is if I actually win a prize myself. And I have run into several people who feel the same way.

 

So I am PRO increasing the rates.

Edited by Nalyua

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I'd be a lot more worried about the nice, invested players. Rude players dont make you feel half as guilty as the nice ones that you should have turned down. In my experience, it would be a lit easier for new winners to only have to deal with rude people. Most if the times, the nice players also shortchange you in terms of actual value, selling 3gs more expensive than what they paid for in the first place.

 

Its those that break trading. There is at least one such example discussing heavily within these prize threads, while owning many 2gs and still going on how its not enough. More CBs would just increase the hoard of those!

I will give you that one. Its the nice ones that make you feel like crud when you turn them down. Well if the guide to being a prize owner could be revamped a bit then maybe that subject could be covered in terms of not letting users guilt you into breeding something because they are nice or 'playing' nice.

 

Thats another worry of mine, more winners will also equal more people in over their heads with trade requests and 'nice' people hoping to short change them for a 2g.

 

I mean as long as users are educated on courtesy and prize owners educated on setting limits for them selves and being strong then I think it can be dealt with. Thats why I also added in that in that mass PM that the guide to being a prize owner as well as the forum/site rules should be linked to kinda knock some sense into users and give them something to educate themselves on before winners are announced.

 

I dont think it should be much of an issue though so it shouldn't really cause a problem should we increase the number of winners. Again, the more the merrier~

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I ran into a person who scammed me in the process

I've had quite a few people go inactive so not obtaining your side of the trade is not as uncommon as you might imagine. It can't be avoided, however, though the majority of players are completely trustworthy.

 

DC forbids offering or asking for IOUs on public trade boards, and yet so few 2gs are actually bred or traded publically to begin with that relying on IOUs becomes inevitable. And with no other method of getting CBs other than winning the raffle, obtaining 2gs is essentially about accepting the risk of scams or choosing not to have any at all.

Edited by DarkEternity

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I've had quite a few people go inactive so not obtaining your side of the trade is not as uncommon as you might imagine. It can't be avoided, however, though the majority of players are completely trustworthy.

 

DC forbids offering or asking for IOUs on public trade boards, and yet so few 2gs are actually bred or traded publically to begin with that relying on IOUs becomes inevitable. And with no other method of getting CBs other than winning the raffle, obtaining 2gs is essentially about accepting the risk of scams or choosing not to have any at all.

good luck even finding an iou though. most peoples lists are a mile long unless you harrass them almost as soon as they get their prize and most people only want piles of rares or 2G swaps for a single egg.

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good luck even finding an iou though. most peoples lists are a mile long unless you harrass them almost as soon as they get their prize and most people only want piles of rares or 2G swaps for a single egg.

Think it's a lost cause asking for more winners if TJ thinks that numbers are already sufficient.

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good luck even finding an iou though. most peoples lists are a mile long unless you harrass them almost as soon as they get their prize and most people only want piles of rares or 2G swaps for a single egg.

In a way yes.

 

I hope making them more Common would cause a decrease in their usage as money-printer in trades. As that is how I see low gen prizes right now.

 

Not that I am opposed in trading them but as someone has pointed out their release led to offers (and requests) that were never even close to imaginable before the prize-breeds were introduced.

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good luck even finding an iou though. most peoples lists are a mile long unless you harrass them almost as soon as they get their prize and most people only want piles of rares or 2G swaps for a single egg.

Its for the bold that I would really like just a few more winners for this or next raffle, and a PM to ALL forum users advising them to please practice patience, courtesy and understanding as well as linking them to the rules and Amazongs Guide to being a prize winner. This would hopefully educate people on not harassing winners as well as educating them that if they really want one they should be ready to wait a very, very, very long time. if they are not prepared to wait that long or cannot do so respectively then they should not ask prize winners.

 

I hope making them more Common would cause a decrease in their usage as money-printer in trades. As that is how I see low gen prizes right now.

 

Thats not gonna stop. it might exhaust the market causing them to drop in value in case prizes bred better ish but it wont stop people from offering an arm and a leg and from people accepting it.

Edited by AnanoKimi

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Thats not gonna stop. it might exhaust the market causing them to drop in value in case prizes bred better ish but it wont stop people from offering an arm and a leg and from people accepting it.

No but it may lead to more people accepting less insane prices as well.

 

(At least that would be my hope).

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No but it may lead to more people accepting less insane prices as well.

 

(At least that would be my hope).

Thats what I meant that it would exhaust the market. enought people would have offered such insane offers that they will no longer e ale to forcing those trading to take on less valuale offers and such. It wont drop in any significant way.

 

Adding more winners will sort of even out the trading market but not enough to let the average joe with maybe 1 CB Gold to get one unless the trader was generous.

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Thats what I meant that it would exhaust the market. enought people would have offered such insane offers that they will no longer e ale to forcing those trading to take on less valuale offers and such. It wont drop in any significant way.

 

Adding more winners will sort of even out the trading market but not enough to let the average joe with maybe 1 CB Gold to get one unless the trader was generous.

Even 1 CB Gold is hardly average though.

 

I know I don't own any recently caught ones, and I caught my last in 2009. (Not even thinking about keeping one in stock to offer to CB Prize Owners constantly)

Edited by Nalyua

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I don't know how many players are actually dissatisfied by the present raffle system. The fact that threads like this come up every year doesn't equal "many dissatisfied players". I'm not dissatisfied. I get my entries, I hope to win. It doesn't take up much of my time. I don't worry over whether I win or not. And, when it's over I hunt the AP for prize eggs. Just because many who feel like me don't normally post in threads like this doesn't mean that dissatisfaction is rampant.

Thank you. Me too.

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Since you had 14 entries this year, this is ridiculous. But even then, something like a grand prize is never won by 1 percent. its more like 1 per million. With secondary prizes at maybe one every 100,000 and a lot of cheap crap prizes up to 50% of it.

 

Be glad TJ does not use industry standards of lotteries.

No - because almost everyone else will have had 14 entries too. TOTAL NUMBER OF ENTRIES. (and sure, in theory I could win 14 prizes - though I think TJ makes sure that doesn't happen.)

 

And sure - in any lottery there are grades of prizes, and the odds on the biggie is less than the odds on the smaller ones - but the smaller ones (the silvers and bronzes in our RAFFLE, I suppose as a start, and then the HMs) ARE STILL PRIZES. There is no single grand prize, ads there is with a lottery.

 

But this is NOT a lottery - it's a raffle, or, if you like a "free" draw. All chances are equal. And the prizes are a lot more equal than those in lotteries.

 

But TJ says he has set what he considers a fair ratio. I'll run with that. From reading this thread, I suspect it is noticeably higher than 1% in fact.

 

And I do wish people would accept that people leave for all sorts of reasons - not because they are harassed to breed. Even a gold prize winner might get a demanding new job, give birth to triplets, just find that there is no time for the game any more. Sheesh.

 

This thread has come to revolving around discussions on win rate--which is something that will not be made public, and without that, that sort of discussion will not be meaningful.

 

Thus, your options are basically to trust me when I say that I take many factors, including the participant base, into account when doing every raffle, and move onto other potential raffle changes (if any), or you can keep discussing claims that are essentially invalid because they're based on weak assumptions. If the latter is what happens, then I'll probably close the thread, because as I said, such discussion is meaningless.

 

tl;dr: I assert that the win rate is satisfactory, you can choose whether or not to believe me.

Well, if the forums are any indication, I don't believe you when you assert that the win rate is satisfactory. Because

 

 

 

 

Winners still get (almost-)harrassed to breed.

 

 

Low-gen prizes are very hard to come by unless you pay with another low-gen prize, which turns them into some kind of currency.

 

 

Trades are hugely dominated by prize trades due to the value of said (low-gen) prizes.

 

 

That's three different, if related indicators that something isn't quite right with prizes - and that's not even taking into account that people feel left out and discuss the raffle with trepidation instead of anticipation.

That's not the result of the win ratio; that is from bad behaviour by members here. Unless everyone wins a prize, it will continue to be exactly as you describe it. Because prizes are not meant for everyone to win. Not even for half or a quarter of people to win them.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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That's not the result of the win ratio; that is from bad behaviour by members here. Unless everyone wins a prize, it will continue to be exactly as you describe it. Because prizes are not meant for everyone to win. Not even for half or a quarter of people to win them.

It's also the result of Prize Dragons overshadowing everything else.

 

Have a CB (or even a Gen 2) and you can buy nearly everything on this site. Don't have one and also no possiblity to get a CB metallic or multiple ND (and technically as having on at some point is hardly a guaranteed success at the first try, you will need to have something to offer almost constantly) and it will be next to impossible to attain one.

 

And personally I am much to shy to actually directly ask a Winner as I feel they are indeed harassed enough and I certainly do not wish to add to this.

 

My dream line is one with Daydream, a pairing I hardly see at all on top of that.

 

And I mean meanwhile I see so many times someone requesting (several) CB metallics for up to Gen 4 Prize eggs. And apparently there are people who can afford this. I have been here since the start of 2009 and such demands were just plain silly before these prizes were introduced, I have never seen scams either before this.

 

Wanting a Low Gen Prize is quite natural too. Many players own CBs of most things, they are working on lineages, and nice patterns. The prizes are new, something they don't yet have so the desire is there.

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Personally I would like the raffle winners to be increased (mostly due to also increasing my own chances to win tongue.gif), but I feel that TJ has his reasons. Keep in mind that basing the number of raffle winners on the number of entries is not the same as basing the number of raffle winners on the number of active users. The number of entries only represents the number of users who remembered to log in to DC at Christmas to enter the draw.

 

(edited to correct my grammar x_x)

Edited by lazybug

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Well if CB prizes were the issue I think the next big trade market destroyer would be ND's I've wanted one for a god while now but never took up offers for them because an IOU for an IOU idk. There will always be something that skews the market, something that makes it so you can't have it all unless you can cough up the goods required for it. If its not Prizes it ND's if not ND's the 2nd gen Hollies and the sort, etc etc. Something new will come up. Something else will throw it all off. There will never be a balance. So the illusion that this or their absolute removal or never having been introduced would fix all of that is just setting your self up for about as bad of a disappointment as thinking you will absolutely most definitely win this time around.

 

Again anincrease is not a bad ide, heck starscream made a good point on kicking it up just a smidge would be nice and a little fair, but none of the issues people have with this will get fixed until they calm down, take a step back, and just try to play the game as best they can.

 

Letting your self be goverend by what you cannot have is no better than letting your self get depressed because you can't be a billionare, or you can't be as pretty or handsome as that person, and the such. We can't keep letting these things just eat at us so much.

 

Yus.

Everyone can make NDs. It's easier than catching metals. You can hardly trade them for anything special. (I tried it twice, never even got a single CB metal for one.) There are so many 2nd gen hollies by now, and even then, they only breed true once a year, so the value of 2nd gens isn't quite that high.

 

Yes, some things seem to be in higher demand than others - but since tinsels were introduced 4 years back, the high-tier trading market has been dominated by prizes and prizes only. And most of them only go for bloodswaps. Or maybe something like 4 or more CB metals.

 

Thank you. I don't feel very differently. Don't get me wrong, I would not kick a Prize out of my scroll, but my beef is with the "trading market". Most of the time, when I'm reading the Trading posts, I keep finding that the people offering something I would want are looking only for low-gen Prizes. Often is quite ridiculous and I doubt that they will ever get them. But I tend to offer only what is requested and I don't have 2nd gen prizes sitting there. In general, I just admit defeat and go do something else. Adding to that, the community spends a ton of time discussing the raffle subject and, while I'm as guilty, suggestions to get us distracted (i.e. release of "something") get drowned.
Thanks, _Sin_, for putting this into words. Especially the bit about "admitting defeat". That's exactly what I feel.

 

Value of the prize has no real meaning to me. Value to me is what an individual is willing to pay. If I ask for A CB gold for something and no one wants to give me that, then so be it.
The value is also an indicator of how much you'd need in order to get one of these. And most of us will want the new shiny dragons on their scrolls. It's also about how much people might be able to pay.

 

What else needs to be there than to say: any unwanted or unsolicited message can be regarded as harassment, please notify the mods if something happens?

And how do you know someone wouldn't want to get your politely worded message in the first place if there's no indicator to tell you so?

 

All of this. An increased prize pool is nice but this, this, all of this, is why the raffles are so terrible. Users who demand/expect what they want from prize owners. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything for loosing. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything because they can't have a CB. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything because they can't make lineages how they want. All of that, all of that is what ruins an otherwise fun event. its not the prize, its not the winners, its the users who think they deserve something for not winning.
Well, forgive me for pointing it out, but not everyone is as lucky as you are. Not everyone gets to win. And not everyone of the rest is demanding to get 2nd gens left and right. The introduction of prizes was probably the worst thing ever to happen to DC. (And I've seen a couple of changes being made during the 5 years I've been playing.) But it's a lot of CB owners who actively turn a bad situation worse: By telling everyone who wants to change something about prizes that they should stuff it and be happy for those who win. (For what reason, really?) By trading only for other prizes, so they are even harder to get for any non-winner. By not breeding at all. Sure, it's your dragon, so you can do with it as you please. But don't expect everyone else to be happy about it and just wait patiently until, maybe, it will be their turn to win.

 

Raffles created a small elite, which (mostly) is pretty quick to quell every discussion that would change their status to "just slightly better than normal". And all in the guise of telling people they're behaving like brats who think they're entitled to whatever they want.

 

Upping winner numbers wont fix user attitude. Users taking the time to bring awareness that Prize winners and owners owe them nothing and that they should be polite, not badger prize owners, not blame the raffle for the fact that they did not win and that What they want should not dictate what a prize breeder does with their baby.
And that's exactly where my suggestion of giving everybody a prize (either shiny or HM) comes in. If everybody is a breeder of CB prizes, CB prize owners won't be swamped with breeding requests any more. It's easy to PM 30 original prize winners. But try that with a userbase of 8k+ people! Heck, may people would probably choose CB hybrids/colored stripes/alts because these would be rarer than CB prizes! (But, oh, wait, that would take away from your position of power - so it smacks of entitlement. My bad.) Edited by olympe

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