Increase the raffle winners pool

[lightningsky]

I have to confess I don't recall seeing trades like your second example ever. :/ And I would have liked to; back then a CB (or even messy horrible bred) Gold was way out of my league.

I've seen trades as mentioned, especially the 1 CB Gold = 2 CB Silvers, which confuses the hell outta me. Both are rare to me!!

 

I have to agree with ADP though, NDs can be made by anyone and Hollys are bred once a year, yes, but they usually have clutches...which spreads them easily. I wonder, are there are more CB Prizes than CB Hollies though? O_o;

 

Prizes are centralizing the higher trade tier, it's always usually Have: ND/CB Metal/2G Thuwed Want: 2G Prize...

 

Not many people can trade for any of those things unless they have a 2G Prize, and not many can provide such a thing.

 

[_Sin_]

I'm dissatisfied because, four years into the game and a huge part of it keeps revolving around these six breeds. Sure, I'm going to admit it isn't as bad as the first two years, when there was even a separate thread created because tinsels were so prolific that was pretty much everything you saw on trade threads. But trading nowadays seems divided in two levels, low grade trading, which covers pretty much everything uncommon-common, and high grade trading where all rares are.

In the past you could sell your scroll for a CB gold, that is, you could trade, I don't know, 60 CB pinks for a gold. Now that's impossible. You see 4 CB golds up for trade and the trader asks for second gen tinsel, no other offers. 

 

Same with the suggestions. Being fair, there is a huge number of other suggestions, but considering the rest of the dragons, the percentage of suggestions concerning prizes is baffling. The suggestions evolve into drama, and the same arguments are tossed back and forth over and over again.

 

I don't want a CB tinsel. I just want this situation to end. I want to be able to trade without thinking my money is from another country and doesn't have any worth here. I want to see drama come to an end.

 

Like Fuzz, I'm with her wishing raffles had never come to be.

Thank you. I don't feel very differently. Don't get me wrong, I would not kick a Prize out of my scroll, but my beef is with the "trading market". Most of the time, when I'm reading the Trading posts, I keep finding that the people offering something I would want are looking only for low-gen Prizes. Often is quite ridiculous and I doubt that they will ever get them. But I tend to offer only what is requested and I don't have 2nd gen prizes sitting there. In general, I just admit defeat and go do something else. Adding to that, the community spends a ton of time discussing the raffle subject and, while I'm as guilty, suggestions to get us distracted (i.e. release of "something") get drowned.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That would be recently, then? Because to me it feels like CB Golds and Silvers have become rather more numerous in recent years, whereas I think DNH is referring to back before we had Prizes. And back then, all I can remember is that even bred metals traded for silly money and CBs were basically impossible to trade for unless you owned a CB Holly or could make CB NDs (I hadn't learned to then) or could catch the equally invisible CB Blacks.

It was in Oct. 2012.

 

@Lightningsky: I think CB Prizes might outnumber CB Hollies when all prizes are counted together, but I don't think any individual Prize / Color combo outnumbers Hollies.

 

 

[AnanoKimi]

*snip* And back then, all I can remember is that even bred metals traded for silly money and CBs were basically impossible to trade for unless you owned a CB Holly or could make CB NDs (I hadn't learned to then) or could catch the equally invisible CB Blacks.

Same. I remember that CB gold was just as much out of my reach as a 2nd gen is now. They always wanted something ridiculously hard to get or just super uncommon. I would always be sitting there trying to get something maybe I could use but nothing. The golds and silvers I did get were messy or super hi gen that required something less drastic but hard to get. So yeah.

 

The tinsels and shimmers I got were from the AP and the Community departure notice thread. The metallics I got before my prize were from some really hard convincing and some really nice people. So prize only replaced what was already a market focusing on another almost impossible to obtain dragon such as NDs, Thiweds, Dorkfaces, or high gen hollies and such.

 

Still in favor of upping the winner circle capacity even if its a bit. considerably that might already be planned for. This year we might have 200 or so winners seeing as its been going up by 50 every year since the first raffle.

[Amazon_warrior]

They were not as frequent but they existed. Golds and Silvers used to be out of my league too before lineages. Thanks to lineages and the importance of them, I was able to get my very first two male and female sprites by trading, I don't even remember what, but something.

 

Cb are still out of my league. I can't hunt, I don't have short gen prizes, oh well.

To be honest, the only reason I'd want them is to gift in gifting threads. The last few silvers I've bred all went into Breeding Gifting.

You'll find people who claim that kind of trade still exists now, too. :s Sadly, if we didn't have Prizes, the trading fever would just be focused elsewhere. Back then it was Hollies (even long-lineaged, messy-ish ones that would barely get a second look now) and metals (especially CB, but even bred ones went for a very pretty penny). Now I suspect it would be offspring of Spriter Alts; they're already hotly pursued as it is, and there are far fewer spriters with alts than there are owners of CB Prizes; I can imagine what kind of pressure they'd come under.

[Alse15]

That would be recently, then? Because to me it feels like CB Golds and Silvers have become rather more numerous in recent years, whereas I think DNH is referring to back before we had Prizes. And back then, all I can remember is that even bred metals traded for silly money and CBs were basically impossible to trade for unless you owned a CB Holly or could make CB NDs (I hadn't learned to then) or could catch the equally invisible CB Blacks.

Last year I traded 25 cb hatchlings for the ND on my scroll. And I traded 20 common hatchlings for my first 2nd gen gold.

[Amazon_warrior]

Last year I traded 25 cb hatchlings for the ND on my scroll. And I traded 20 common hatchlings for my first 2nd gen gold.

Last year, yes. Back before Prizes would have been in 2009/2010; I'm not sure you would have got that sort of rate then.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Amazon_warrior

[DragonNighthowler]

You'll find people who claim that kind of trade still exists now, too. :s Sadly, if we didn't have Prizes, the trading fever would just be focused elsewhere. Back then it was Hollies (even long-lineaged, messy-ish ones that would barely get a second look now) and metals (especially CB, but even bred ones went for a very pretty penny). Now I suspect it would be offspring of Spriter Alts; they're already hotly pursued as it is, and there are far fewer spriters with alts than there are owners of CB Prizes; I can imagine what kind of pressure they'd come under.

Probably. I remember a time unbreedables like dinos were worth their weight in gold. Now most people wouldn't even look at them unless you collected them. I gues the main problem is, like in most games, economy just doesn't work, and we can have a lengthy discussion about whether it works in real life.

[Starscream]

My only concern is no matter how much the raffle is increased in winners, there will be a level of dis-satisfaction. Looking back over threads and comments elsewhere, it appears that even though the increase is met with a certain amount of happiness, it ends up being more grumble, mostly - at least I think, because "didn't win".

 

Any possible increase will not satisfy those who did not win. Even though their chances have greatly increased from year One which I think was 30 winners through vote. Even if it was upped by lets say 1% + 150 (to say prevent the possibility of a lower win chance) I'll be the same story.

 

Value of the prize has no real meaning to me. Value to me is what an individual is willing to pay. If I ask for A CB gold for something and no one wants to give me that, then so be it.

 

People who offer multiple CB rares and having owners and low gen owners accept it, if that is what a person wants to pay, so be it. Sort of like an auction. I have traded good stuff for vampires, because that is what I want. I have had people offer me CB metals for the same thing I want vampires for. Sure I'll take the CB metal because I can use them toward obtaining vampire - if decide I need to use them that way.

[LaHaine]

Last year, yes. Back before Prizes would have been in 2009/2010; I'm not sure you would have got that sort of rate then.

Probably not for the NDs, but that's because there were less people trying to make them, I doubt there were a lot of people who knew how

[Alse15]

Last year, yes. Back before Prizes would have been in 2009/2010; I'm not sure you would have got that sort of rate then.

Honestly when it comes to prizes and 2nd gens it all depends on timing and who you know/how you ask. I remember one of the lists I got on in 2013 I was put on the list simply because I didn't demand an egg and I was polite. Some very hard to get items traded for next to nothing because of timing mood.

 

I think the biggest problem is the entitlement a lot of users have. I know when catching CB metals was really easy in 2013-2014 when I offered up trades people would pm me with their offer and all but tell me to trade with them. I rejected them on principle, especially when I ended up gifting the metals to people because there wasn't anything I was enthusiastic about.

 

Even today if I have a nice item up on trade or I drop something nice in the departure thread I have a bunch of people messaging me, telling me to put them on my list.

 

I think a better harassment system needs to be implemented tbh.

[Amazon_warrior]

Probably. I remember a time unbreedables like dinos were worth their weight in gold. Now most people wouldn't even look at them unless you collected them. I gues the main problem is, like in most games, economy just doesn't work, and we can have a lengthy discussion about whether it works in real life.

Oh, we could! Probably not the time or place, though.

 

@Alse15: Yes, right place/right time/right person helps, obviously. Though I think that's a lil different situation than your average "Have: Shiny thing, Want: Other shiny thing" trade post with little to no interaction. Also agree re entitlement. Especially in the beginning with Luckiest Catch, I had people PMing me with a tele link full of CB shinies and promises of "many more" along with a virtual demand for a 2G Shimmer. I told them to get knotted on principle.

[whitebaron]

I think a better harassment system needs to be implemented tbh.

What else needs to be there than to say: any unwanted or unsolicited message can be regarded as harassment, please notify the mods if something happens?

 

 

--eta--

aw, you did trade with me, though.

Edited January 8, 2015 by whitebaron

[cyradis4]

To be honest, I'm way over caring about the prize dragon's rarity. I just want the cave to stop revolving around the same 6 breeds, as it has been doing for the past 4 years. This was a nice experiment, and, IMO, it didn't work. It'd be better to release the creature in cave and keep the raffles as the Honorable Mentions, if there must be a raffle.

This.

 

And I feel the strong need to point out that its NOT 150 of the same dragon. Its:

10 Gold Tinsels, Total CBs in Cave: 20

20 Silver Tinsels, Total CBs In Cave: 40

30 Bronze Tinsels, Total CBs In Cave: 60

10 Gold Shimmers, Total CBs In Cave: 20

20 Silver Shimmes, Total CBs In Cave: 40

30 Bonze Shimmers, Total CBs In Cave: 60

30 Honorable Mentions

 

I have more Moonstones than there are CB Bronze Tinsels in the entire Cave. The trade market and collectors do NOT treat them all as equal, nor as the same. How many times have I seen posts that say "Only Gold Tinsels", "Only Gold or Silver Shimmers" and the like?

 

But in these threads, people tend to lump them all together. The sad truth is, you cannot, literally physically *can't*, build a non-inbred, non-deadline 6th gen checker with Gold Tinsels.... Because it takes 16 of each gender and there are only 20 total, split between 2 genders, in the entire Cave.

 

The next issue afflicting the prizes is attrition in their ranks. Many owners don't breed theirs (their option, I'm not saying anything either way just stating it as a fact), or they don't trade the offspring. So the number available to spread around the trade market and into the AP is much lower than the already miniscule totals shown above. Remember: You can't lump all prizes into one group and say "here's how many there are, that's not a small number!", because the userbase in general considers them 6 separate Prizes.

 

So:

We have 6 different Prizes, split between 2 genders.

We have 6 gorgeous shiny sprites, where there are only a couple of other shiny metalic sprites (1 of which is badly in need of a sprite update), so they'd have been in high demand even if they'd been in-cave as commons.

We have really small numbers of any given Prize sprite in comparison to the userbase (the only numbers we have are 8k+)

We have a significant percentage of the Prize Owners not breeding / not trading for whatever reason

We have users leaving the site over time (its been 5 years now, people's interests change)

 

I think:

Going off a percentage when we don't have any reliable user information is silly.

But we can tell from the trade forum that the number we have is too low, and it keeps too much focus on the prizes as a result

I think double or tripling the total number in the Cave would make up for the general attrition and increase the number of prize owners trading offspring. I don't know if it would be enough, but I think it would be a really good start. Just like last year's doubling of all Prize sprites helped.

And by the stars above... Please don't add 3 new Prize sprites into the mix!

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[Ha-Ki]

I don't know how many players are actually dissatisfied by the present raffle system. The fact that threads like this come up every year doesn't equal "many dissatisfied players". I'm not dissatisfied. I get my entries, I hope to win. It doesn't take up much of my time. I don't worry over whether I win or not. And, when it's over I hunt the AP for prize eggs. Just because many who feel like me don't normally post in threads like this doesn't mean that dissatisfaction is rampant.

Same here

 

Oh, and I would stop crying too loud for that 1% chance, because it might happen

Estimating from the confirmed numbers we've heard, I'm pretty sure that the chances of winning were higher than 1% in the last raffle.

[Amazon_warrior]

--eta--

aw, you did trade with me, though.

You were rather more circumspect than some people!

[JavaTigress]

My only concern is no matter how much the raffle is increased in winners, there will be a level of dis-satisfaction. Looking back over threads and comments elsewhere, it appears that even though the increase is met with a certain amount of happiness, it ends up being more grumble, mostly -  at least I think, because "didn't win".

 

Any possible increase will not satisfy those who did not win. Even though their chances have greatly increased from year One which I think was 30 winners through vote.  Even if it was upped by lets say 1% + 150 (to say prevent the possibility of a lower win chance) I'll be the same story.

 

Value of the prize has no real meaning to me. Value to me is what an individual is willing to pay. If I ask for A CB gold for something and no one wants to give me that, then so be it.

 

People who offer multiple CB rares and having owners and low gen owners accept it, if that is what a person wants to pay, so be it. Sort of like an auction. I have traded good stuff for vampires, because that is what I want. I have had people offer me CB metals for the same thing I want vampires for. Sure I'll take the CB metal because I can use them toward obtaining vampire  - if decide I need to use them that way.

True, Starscream, there probably WOULD still be some 'I didn't win' grumbling, BUT I would argue that if increasing the number of winners would decrease it substantially, IMO that could only be a good thing; bearing in mind, of course, that there is ALWAYS going to be some that are going to grumble whatever happens.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Silverswift

[zaverxi]

We have a significant percentage of the Prize Owners not breeding / not trading for whatever reason

We have users leaving the site over time (its been 5 years now, people's interests change)

Plus I believe people have mentioned the 'harassing prize owners' thing. I know for a fact that some people were bothered so much they left dragcave because of it. And some breeders now refuse to breed their CB for similar reasons, so that definitely cuts down the pool.

 

Plus, last year two of the prizes were on the same scroll for someone who I guess was multiscrolling, and both are now dead and the scroll burned. So that's another two that are unavailable. It's really sad to see Pipes and Beets dead rather than released, looks like it happened around May that they were killed? Oh well.

 

Anyway, there's not as many CBs around as those numbers suggest, that and there's still some missing from the lists on the wikia even today. Whether they belonged to people who don't visit the forums and simply don't KNOW how valuable they are, or what, it doesn't change the fact that the number is a lot lower of what's actually available.

 

And don't forget the ones whose owners bred to incredibly ugly, messy, inbred lineages, whether deliberately or for the same reason, they don't know what they got. So some will never have pretty lineages, which make the rest of us go nuts. That and Pinoy's only nice lineage is an EG pure inbred.

 

[Syphoneira]

Plus I believe people have mentioned the 'harassing prize owners' thing. I know for a fact that some people were bothered so much they left dragcave because of it. And some breeders now refuse to breed their CB for similar reasons, so that definitely cuts down the pool.

 

Plus, last year two of the prizes were on the same scroll for someone who I guess was multiscrolling, and both are now dead and the scroll burned. So that's another two that are unavailable. It's really sad to see Pipes and Beets dead rather than released, looks like it happened around May that they were killed? Oh well.

 

Anyway, there's not as many CBs around as those numbers suggest, that and there's still some missing from the lists on the wikia even today. Whether they belonged to people who don't visit the forums and simply don't KNOW how valuable they are, or what, it doesn't change the fact that the number is a lot lower of what's actually available.

 

And don't forget the ones whose owners bred to incredibly ugly, messy, inbred lineages, whether deliberately or for the same reason, they don't know what they got. So some will never have pretty lineages, which make the rest of us go nuts. That and Pinoy's only nice lineage is an EG pure inbred.

 

 

And I gather some people left because their dragons didn't produce well and they felt badly about people on lists waiting forever and couldn't deal with it.

 

At least this is what I've been told.

[AnanoKimi]

I think the biggest problem is the entitlement a lot of users have. I know when catching CB metals was really easy in 2013-2014 when I offered up trades people would pm me with their offer and all but tell me to trade with them. I rejected them on principle

 

Plus I believe people have mentioned the 'harassing prize owners' thing. I know for a fact that some people were bothered so much they left dragcave because of it. And some breeders now refuse to breed their CB for similar reasons, so that definitely cuts down the pool.

 

Plus, last year two of the prizes were on the same scroll for someone who I guess was multiscrolling, and both are now dead and the scroll burned. So that's another two that are unavailable. It's really sad to see Pipes and Beets dead rather than released, looks like it happened around May that they were killed? Oh well.

 

And I gather some people left because their dragons didn't produce well and they felt badly about people on lists waiting forever and couldn't deal with it.

 

All of this. An increased prize pool is nice but this, this, all of this, is why the raffles are so terrible. Users who demand/expect what they want from prize owners. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything for loosing. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything because they can't have a CB. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything because they can't make lineages how they want. All of that, all of that is what ruins an otherwise fun event. its not the prize, its not the winners, its the users who think they deserve something for not winning.

 

Again, an increased number of winner beyond 200 would be nice but I can already assume an increase is imminent seeing as it has been increasing every year by about 50. Still.

[OtomeKristinOtaku]

Reading over this, a lot of people seem to wish that the raffle never existed in the first place. I wasn't here for the Frill retirement drama, but I sure hope the same thing doesn't happen with the raffle. If there's too much drama or negativity towards the raffle, then perhaps might maybe TJ will decide that there won't be a raffle anymore.

[cyradis4]

AnanoKimi, it hasn't been increasing each year, and the increases haven't been by 50s.

 

The first two years the numbers were the same. The third year, those numbers were doubled so the total number of CB Shimmers was the same as all CB Tinsels. Last year, the number of CBs of each breed was again doubled.

 

We can hope its double again, but.... TJ's post about being satisfied seems to indicate otherwise.

 

And besides, WHY they left is less important than no matter what, the low gens of the 6 beautiful metalic Prize breeds are at the mercy of a tiny number of winners, and the descendents of a shifting number will never be available to the general population.

 

Like I said, I think another doubling (like the last two years), and no new breed would really, really help the situation. And an uneventful raffle. (If you want details pm me, but please do not discuss it in the thread, we aren't supposed to, which is why I was so vague in my previous post).

 

Cheers!

C4.

[AnanoKimi]

Why they left is the reason there is such a small number of CB's to work with in the first place. See thats what is not taken into account. The CB numbers don't drop just out of the blue. We didnt go from 10 Gold shimmers to 3 for no reason. Some were frozen some left due to pressure, some refuse to breed to avoid that pressure, the rest are left to deal with it.

 

So it is important because if we can avoid the reasons why they left, we might not have to worry about a decrease in available breeding CBs and we wont have to bug TJ with something that he shouldnt be bugged with in the first place :3

[MedievalMystic]

All of this. An increased prize pool is nice but this, this, all of this, is why the raffles are so terrible. Users who demand/expect what they want from prize owners. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything for loosing. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything because they can't have a CB. The fact that people think they deserve something or anything because they can't make lineages how they want. All of that, all of that is what ruins an otherwise fun event. its not the prize, its not the winners, its the users who think they deserve something for not winning.

 

I am very relieved to see that other people have noticed this kind of rotten attitude on this site. Up to now it seems to me like people with bad attitudes towards the raffle and it's prizes have been allowed to run rampant and flat out justify these types of behaviors will full immunity. I really hope that's changing and more people will stand up and express just how lousy they think that behavior really is, what a wet blanket it throws over the entire site and I really hope that the powers that be around here finally jerk a knot in some chains that should have been jerked a long time ago. Doing away with the raffle because of bad behavior shown by some users? No way. The raffle doesn't need to be done away with. The bad behavior surrounding it does. It is supposed to be a fun event. It's something I'd like to enjoy a whole lot more than I've been able to up to now. Expressing disappointment is one thing, normal and natural, what I've seen go down here is a whole different ball game. Prize winners that fear expressing any kind of happiness whatsoever about the win, being made to feel responsible for the misery of others? Seriously? That just shouldn't be the norm and it shouldn't be acceptable.

 

Thanks for that post, AK. It needed saying.

Edited January 8, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[cyradis4]

Why they left is the reason there is such a small number of CB's to work with in the first place. See thats what is not taken into account. The CB numbers don't drop just out of the blue. We didnt go from 10 Gold shimmers to 3 for no reason. Some were frozen some left due to pressure, some refuse to breed to avoid that pressure, the rest are left to deal with it.

 

So it is important because if we can avoid the reasons why they left, we might not have to worry about a decrease in available breeding CBs and we wont have to bug TJ with something that he shouldnt be bugged with in the first place :3

10 in a userbase which is estimated to be 8k+ users (from the Christmas tree event) is a miniscule amount no matter how you look at it.

 

So I stand by my point:

Even if every CB owner was breeding (which they are not and are not obliged to, and anyone who assumes that every one is going to is silly) there would still be far, far too few of the CBs to take any pressure off trades. And its the prizes effect on trading and the forums (drama) which is causing so many people to react negatively to the raffle. Last year took a good bit of pressure off, but other things happened that soured people.

 

So! I still think a doubling (and an uneventful, fairly quick raffle) will help a lot, and maybe next year less people will be disgusted with the month of January on DC.

 

Cheers!

C4.