ANSWERED:Release of Prize dragons in-cave

[Naruhina_94]

*face palm*

 

Ok, this clearly needs explaining to you in plainer terms.

 

If CB Shimmers and Tinsels were released in the Cave, there would be one (or several) entirely new replacement prizes to be collected - I cannot imagine Tins and Shims remaining as Raffle prizes in that case.  And what I posted is exactly what you would see on the trade threads.  Along with more threads about how it's not fair that CB Shim and Tin trades are all caught up in hopeful trades for offspring of those new prizes, it's not fair, people won't trade them for manageable prices like multiple CB hatchies or nice lineages... any of this sound at all familiar?  The more things change, the more they stay the same....

Well, you didn't specify that they would require the 2nd gens of the new prize dragon AND it still no matters for me, because even that new prize dragon (let's call it Mario) will be relased in cave in 3 years. A new one will take its place and so on. People will have the chance to obtain them all by hunting in the cave, like it was in the beginning, when there were no prizes at all. They will offer CB old prizes only if they want IMMEDIATLY the new 2nd gens, which will be not the case for everyone.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Naruhina_94

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, you didn't specify that they would require the 2nd gens of the new prize dragon AND it still no matters for me, because even that new prize dragon (let's call it Mario) will be relased in cave in 3 years. A new one will take its place and so on. People will have the chance to obtain them all by hunting in the cave, like it was in the beginning, when there were no prizes at all. They will offer CB old prizes only if they want IMMEDIATLY the new 2nd gens, which will be not the case for everyone.

It WILL be the case for enough people that it will continue to skew trading threads.

[CNR4806]

Well, you didn't specify that they would require the 2nd gens of the new prize dragon AND it still no matters for me, because even that new prize dragon (let's call it Mario) will be relased in cave in 3 years. A new one will take its place and so on. People will have the chance to obtain them all by hunting in the cave, like it was in the beginning, when there were no prizes at all. They will offer CB old prizes only if they want IMMEDIATLY the new 2nd gens, which will be not the case for everyone.

If this is implemented as originally suggested (paving way for new prizes) instead of being a mean to an end (to end the raffles entirely), it will not work.

 

It will, in fact, worsen the situation in trades as prizes will most likely be perpetually locked in a cycle of "new prize craze".

Edited January 9, 2015 by CNR4806

[stagazer_7]

HAVE: 4 CB Shimmers, CB ND

 

WANT: 2G Prize!!!

 

And in a next few years, we'd get:

 

Have:

2 CB Shimmers

2 CB Tins

1 CB Prize

CB ND

 

Want:

2nd gen Prize no.2

 

Yes, this is exactly what would happen, it would mean that the switching up Prizes system works. Prize winners would own an exclusive, special dragon and be able to use the offspring to get neat stuff they like (and they should be able to get nice things, they did win a raffle after all) and even after those Prizes would be released in-Cave their dragons wouldn't be any less special, because they're the original releases, I imagine their offspring would still be very valuable, like 2nd Thuweds and Dorkfaces - regular dragons, almost all of them, but their names and lineage gives them weight and makes them so valuable.

Edited January 9, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Obscure_Trash]

I am not for this. The site saying you can build lineages and play as you want doesn't mean you can work around site limits. It doesn't mean you can sprite a dragon you like and add it to the cave yourself because you think it'd go perfectly with olives. It doesn't mean you can breed two headed dragons and pygmies together. We still have to abide by the limits in the cave. I really don't want to see prizes released in cave. They were meant as prizes and I support them staying as prizes. As raffles/whatever continue, we'll continue getting more cb prizes anyway, as long as TJ continues to offer older prizes as a prize. ^^

[kitsune93]

No, they're called Prizes for a reason and should stay as such.

[stagazer_7]

That depends on the definition of Prize dragons - I simply don't see them as 'have to be exclusives', but something new and fun players have a chance of getting while playing the game. I don't see how an in-Cave release few years from that would take away any of that joy. Now if it was officially stated that these dragons will never be available in-Cave, I'd accept it, wouldn't rage-quit the game or anything silly like that and would simply continue to build my lineages with other great dragons that are available, like I am doing now. But we've made such wonderful progress with Holidays which were also limited to only a few dragons per scroll I would really like to see similar progress with Prizes as well.

Edited January 9, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Rosedamai]

Honestly I can only see this as a cyclic dramafest with people hankering after the new prizes and how they WANT IT NOW!!!! So no.

 

I think the tinsel spriter said no anyways and maybe we should respect their opinion a liiiiittle bit more.

[Oddsoxdi]

Yes, this ^^^^^ absolutely. If the artist has already said 'no', why is it even still being tossed around?

 

We're not three years old are we? We don't all get cute little 'Participation Trophies' for just showing up. For Pete's sake it's a raffle - a bunch of names in a hat - some get pulled out, some don't. An adult deals with not always winning - it's not always fun and may even involve a bit of loud profanity. And then it should be over.

[Amazon_warrior]

Well, you didn't specify that they would require the 2nd gens of the new prize dragon AND it still no matters for me, because even that new prize dragon (let's call it Mario) will be relased in cave in 3 years. A new one will take its place and so on. People will have the chance to obtain them all by hunting in the cave, like it was in the beginning, when there were no prizes at all. They will offer CB old prizes only if they want IMMEDIATLY the new 2nd gens, which will be not the case for everyone.

I didn't feel that I needed to specify that; I thought it was implicit.

 

Also, most of the current threads exist because people (in general, not just people posting here) want to be able to collect a low-gen rare/create a prize lineage as of yesterday, if not sooner. There would be endless trades "locking up" all those precious CB Tins and Shims you're chasing so keenly.

[Rosedamai]

I didn't feel that I needed to specify that; I thought it was implicit.

 

Also, most of the current threads exist because people (in general, not just people posting here) want to be able to collect a low-gen rare/create a prize lineage as of yesterday, if not sooner. There would be endless trades "locking up" all those precious CB Tins and Shims you're chasing so keenly.

That would also mean that there would be more rares as in more types of rares that dragons people feel like they have to be glued to dragon cave forever to catch for.

So unlike, say, holly, nd, gold, silver, 2nd gen shims and tins, it'd be holly, nd, gold, silver, shims, tins, new prize 1, new prize 2, new prize 3, and so on. A bit of a burden for newbies, I'd think.

[stagazer_7]

Yes, CB Tins and such would be neigh impossible to obtain, but they're rares and this would hopefully be expected, it's not like they would become the next cave blockers or anything of the sort. I doubt anyone expect an easy trade when trading for a CB Gold, the same would go for in-Cave prizes.

 

Of course if the spriters are against this idea, this suggestion should naturally be reconsidered. Does anyone happen to have a quotation of that anywhere?

 

Also, there are many gifting threads and so many kind players out there, newbies would be covered as well as they are now.

[MedievalMystic]

If the artist has already said 'no', why is it even still being tossed around?

 

 

Who cares about the artists? Who are they to be considered? They make those dragons for US, as they SHOULD be doing, the peons! So what if the concept takes years! So what if their time, work and effort go into it! That's why they exist , isn't it?! They were BORN to be on this site and cater to us! If we don't like it, they should be THRILLED to change it! They should be HONORED. OUR happiness is what matters! WE are the MASSES, the MAJORITY and we RULE. Do you not UNDERSTAND the way it is?? Who cares about TJ and what he wants either? Who the hell is TJ to tell US that something will be a certain way! That'll be the freaking day. Oh, we'll handle his ass, don't worry. So what if he owns the place! People are UNHAPPY, dammit! U.N.H.A.P.P.Y. Do people just not understand what that means?? People can't be allowed to be unhappy! The nerve of this site! How DARE it make anyone unhappy?? And the artists, the site, the mods, and the other players, and the owner, BETTER get it, better LISTEN and LEARN and better DO something about it or ELSE.

 

That's why. lol

 

Sorry...my kind of humor...

Edited January 10, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[Rosedamai]

Yes, CB Tins and such would be neigh impossible to obtain, but they're rares and this would hopefully be expected, it's not like they would become the next cave blockers or anything of the sort. I doubt anyone expect an easy trade when trading for a CB Gold, the same would go for in-Cave prizes.

 

Of course if the spriters are against this idea, this suggestion should naturally be reconsidered. Does anyone happen to have a quotation of that anywhere?

 

Also, there are many gifting threads and so many kind players out there, newbies would be covered as well as they are now.

Marrionetta has said no to recoloring her tinsels, and she does seem uncomfortable w her tinsels being released in-cave although she said TJ has control over that.

here and here

[Amazon_warrior]

Also, there are many gifting threads and so many kind players out there, newbies would be covered as well as they are now.

I have to agree that the "ohnoes, the newbies!" argument is the weakest one against more rares (of any kind) in the Cave. There were gifting threads when I started (I didn't use them, but they were there) and bred metals are much easier to come by now than they were then. Same goes for Hollies. And prizes, if you're not dead-set on having a 2G the day after you join.

[Rosedamai]

I have to agree that the "ohnoes, the newbies!" argument is the weakest one against more rares (of any kind) in the Cave. There were gifting threads when I started (I didn't use them, but they were there) and bred metals are much easier to come by now than they were then. Same goes for Hollies. And prizes, if you're not dead-set on having a 2G the day after you join.

True, I just thought I'd throw that out there because it's one of the more often used ideas against so-called(I think the term 'exclusive' should really be used when it's some sprite you can NEVER EVER get) exclusive dragons-"it isn't fair to newbies!"-and I wanted to point out by that logic, well, you're making it hard for new people by increasing the number of rares too.

[Amazon_warrior]

True, I just thought I'd throw that out there because it's one of the more often used ideas against so-called(I think the term 'exclusive' should really be used when it's some sprite you can NEVER EVER get) exclusive dragons-"it isn't fair to newbies!"-and I wanted to point out by that logic, well, you're making it hard for new people by increasing the number of rares too.

Ah, gotcha.

[MedievalMystic]

Marrionetta has said no to recoloring her tinsels, and she does seem uncomfortable w her tinsels being released in-cave although she said TJ has control over that.

 

Hopefully he'll respect that.

[Ansela Jonla]

 

Who cares about the artists? Who are they to be considered? They make those dragons for US, as they SHOULD be doing, the peons! So what if the concept takes years! So what if their time, work and effort go into it! That's why they exist , isn't it?! They were BORN to be on this site and cater to us! If we don't like it, they should be THRILLED to change it! They should be HONORED. OUR happiness is what matters! WE are the MASSES, the MAJORITY and we RULE. Do you not UNDERSTAND the way it is?? Who cares about TJ and what he wants either? Who the hell is TJ to tell US that something will be a certain way! That'll be the freaking day. Oh, we'll handle his ass, don't worry. So what if he owns the place! People are UNHAPPY, dammit! U.N.H.A.P.P.Y. Do people just not understand what that means?? People can't be allowed to be unhappy! The nerve of this site! How DARE it make anyone unhappy?? And the artists, the site, the mods, and the other players, and the owner, BETTER get it, better LISTEN and LEARN and better DO something about it or ELSE.

Well, this is about authors (specifically G.R.R.M), but it applies to your post as well. A small rant about entitlement issues (there's a swear word or two, for those who are easily offended).

[Guillotine]

Marrionetta has said no to recoloring her tinsels, and she does seem uncomfortable w her tinsels being released in-cave although she said TJ has control over that.

here and here

This is precisely why I agree that the current prizes should not be considered for this suggestion (except maybe Shimmers, but then only if the spriter says they're for it. I'm going to err on "probably not" until I can find their thoughts on the matter).

 

As far as I'm concerned, this should strictly be for theoretical future prizes, with the population problem of the current prizes being taken care of with more winners and/or more raffles.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Guillotine

[Wokenulape]

 

 

@Ansela Jona: Neil Gaiman can afford to work like that, given that anything with his name on it will sell well. He's gotten through the great bottleneck and gotten the recognition and fame that a small fraction of a small fraction of authors ever get. But those authors who struggle to get published, to get a second book? They can't have the Neil Gaiman or George Martin lifestyle.

 

The main difference between authors and spriters is that authors get paid, it's a job, and for most of them, a living.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Wokenulape

[Rosedamai]

@Ansela Jona: Neil Gaiman can afford to work like that, given that anything with his name on it will sell well. He's gotten through the great bottleneck and gotten the recognition and fame that a small fraction of a small fraction of authors ever get. But those authors who struggle to get published, to get a second book? They can't have the Neil Gaiman or George Martin lifestyle.

 

The main difference between authors and spriters is that authors get paid, it's a job, and for most of them, a living.

Right, and for spriters on this forum, it's not a job or a living, so they can do whatever the hell they want with their sprites because it's their damn hobby and no one should be FORCED to engaged in a hobby to please the masses.

[CNR4806]

Right, and for spriters on this forum, it's not a job or a living, so they can do whatever the hell they want with their sprites because it's their damn hobby and no one should be FORCED to engaged in a hobby to please the masses.

One should also remember that Dragon Cave is a game that people flock over primarily to play, and appreciation of the artists' efforts come in second. This isn't deviantart where "whatever the hell they want" don't interfere with other people's experience on the site.

 

They do have heavy influence over how work that they've contributed toward are treated in-site, but the "this is my hobby and I should have all the say over it" defense does not fully apply on DC because the game is not about the artists. It is about players who collect dragons and in case of a severe conflict (read: unresolvable without violating the artist's opinion) where the player concerns are considered valid, that should be the primary concern of the site, not the artists' will.

 

You are also right that no one is forced to engage in a hobby to please the masses. If you find DC, a game where keeping the players happy has a higher priority than your personal wishes, you can always refuse to do any artwork for it. No one is holding you at gunpoint forcing you to sprite for DC, and inversely nor can you hold the DC playerbase at gunpoint to bow down to its knees to please you.

 

 

EDIT - A few things that I'd like to clarify regarding this particular post:

1. This post is my opinion on the general artist-player-site relationship. It is not specific to the suggestion of this thread, nor am I really referring to it.

2. The "Yous" in this post, with the exception to the first one in the last paragraph where I'm referring to ylangylang's post, are "general you" that does not refer to anyone.

3. Just to be really sure that no one is mixing this up, I am not accusing any current or past artists of trying to dominate opinion. It's just a worst scenario that I'm describing.

Edited January 10, 2015 by CNR4806

[MedievalMystic]

and appreciation of the artists' efforts come in second.

 

At least you're honest.

 

It is about players who collect dragons

 

...that wouldn't exist without the artists.

 

because the game is not about the artists.

 

It's a game about the dragons the artists create.

 

 

If you find DC, a game where keeping the players happy has a higher priority than your personal wishes, you can always refuse to do any artwork for it.

 

That's exactly what I would do were I an artist here. Sure, I'd want people to be happy, and I'd hope they were, but dog me about my creation, insult it, rip it to shreds, demand extensive changes to my vision to placate you once too often and I'd be done. People get the dragons...and the artists work... for free. But people still want to look a gift horse in the mouth. No, there's nothing wrong with asking for a change...but if the artist or the site owner aren't down with it, that should totally be respected and imo, should be the end of it.

 

inversely nor can you hold the DC playerbase at gunpoint to bow down to its knees to please you.

 

Nor should the DC player base be trying to do the same.

 

On my other favorite game people are highly respectful and appreciative of the artists there and the work and effort they put into the site, as it always should be. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes and into making an entire site work, including events, which artists are also involved in, it isn't even funny. It's massive what goes on and most people aren't even aware of the sheer amount of work. Imo, and I know I'm in the minority, what an artist/site owner envisions for their creation should be more important than any site user's personal wants.

 

On the other site, sure, they want to make you happy, and have made some changes because a huge percentage of the user base asked for it...but it's also understood, and the owner will let people know real quick, that if they decide to do something, change something or add something or take something away or whatever, and you aren't happy, you'll simply have to live with it because some things stand in stone based on their vision alone and they won't change their decisions for you. *shrug*

 

Here, it just feels to me like people think anything and everything they're unhappy about should change immediately just for that reason, no matter who else or what is involved, which to me doesn't feel right at all.

Edited January 10, 2015 by MedievalMystic

[Fiona]

Um, before this gets any further afield, this issue isn't, and should never be, an "Us against You" situation.

 

Artists here are just people. Just players like yourselves. Yes, TJ respects our vision for our creations and if Marrionetta said she didn't want her tinsels released incave TJ would likely respect that.

 

But please don't go singling us out like we're some foreign species, and a dangerous one at that.

 

Talk about how you think this helps or hurts the game, sure. You can mention whether or not the artist(s) are for or against, though that isn't the final word. Otherwise I think you should leave the artists out of it.

 

(most of the people here do appreciate the art we do for the site. There was a time that wasn't so true but now it's better. But we do what we do because we like to art and we like DC. Whether you art or not, the biggest difference between us and you is we sprited or helped sprite something TJ liked enough to use.)