Unfreezing

[olympe]

The same way you can zombify an adult. Kill and revive on Halloween.

 

Creating zombie hatchlings from hatchlings that ran out of time is kind of a loophole that became popular in recent years.

Edited July 28, 2014 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

The same way you can zombify an adult. Kill and revive on Halloween.

 

Creating zombie hatchlings from hatchlings that ran out of time is kind of a loophole that became popular in recent years.

Ah, and oops. I do it the other way - let them run out and revive them after that Thanks. I never even THOUGHT of that ! (I try to save kill actions for the adults I want to do.)

[CNR4806]

Worrying about people abusing it to obtain more holidays is silly. I have a friend (not naming them for their sake) who obtained 76ish CAVEBORN Shadow Walkers purely by strategically trading. If someone wants to hoard holidays, they'll be able to with the current limits. I HIGHLY doubt unfreezing would prevent that. And anyway, what's wrong with it if a user does that? I for one wouldn't because I'm picky with lineages and way too lazy to trade for all the hatchlings that would get me to the point where I'd need to freeze some to unfreeze later, but seriously, what's wrong with it? They already suffer two penalties: a large gap between the "hatched on" and "grew up on" dates and being unable to breed to commons for a prolonged period of time. I see no reason to further penalize them. I'd only support having to raise the hatchie from 7 days and being unable to trade it.

One could argue that getting holidays beyond the intended scroll limit is currently achievable through trading extreme ERs. Remember, trading so many extreme ERs almost always requires equally extreme pre-planning, communication, timing and sometimes luck. With unfreezing, you're basically doing the same thing without all the hassle of precise timing and slot management, which is mind-bogglingly easy on comparison.

[KageSora]

However, the RP reason is incorrect. At least half of mine were frozen before death. Yes, a zombie hatchling is auto-frozen, but not all of them were.

I feel it still stands, though. You may have killed a frozen hatchling, but the fact still stands that it could never grow because it is an animated corpse--there is no living tissue to return to the proper flow of time or to stimulate into rapid growth to transform it into an adult, or anything else. It's still dead tissue given movement and "life" purely though magic.

[DragonLady86]

I feel it still stands, though. You may have killed a frozen hatchling, but the fact still stands that it could never grow because it is an animated corpse--there is no living tissue to return to the proper flow of time or to stimulate into rapid growth to transform it into an adult, or anything else. It's still dead tissue given movement and "life" purely though magic.

True, true. I was merely attempting to point out a potential "reason" for problems should unfreezing ever actually be implemented. "Why can't unfreeze my zombie? I froze it!" I do, really, agree that dead things should not/can not grow up.

[KageSora]

I'd also argue that you still technically didn't freeze the zombie itself--you froze it in a pre-zombie state. Additionally, since unfrozen hatchlings that become zombies are insta-frozen the idea still is that it's not a creature that's capable of growing at all, no matter if it was frozen or not prior to death.

 

So the general reasoning is the same no matter how it died--the dead cannot grow, so the thing can't be unfrozen since they're not frozen in the same sense as the other hatchlings.

[LibbyLishly]

Quietly bumping this as a nudge to TJ while he's in the midst of all his fabulous updates.

[Melisande]

I still personally disagree with this suggestion and hop that freezing remains permanent. As some one who generally prefers frozen sprites to adults I know I would not want to use this action. And I would be concerned with people trying to harass those who had a dragon like a frill that was discontinued or a holiday that was frozen to try to talk them into un-freezing them, making them feel bad for their choices they made. I could also see people going and yelling at people for "freezing" babies that were their dragons children and telling them off for it and trying to "require" them to make them unfrozen. I know I've had people tell me off for freezing a hatchie I got in the ap... and it's not fun. Being able to unfreeze hatchies would make this an even more common thing and verbose.

 

When you freeze a dragon you are asked to confirm that you want to do the action as it is permanant. So we have a choice already if we want the dragons as adults or as babies forever. It would kind of take away part of the fun of freezing if you could just be like oh I changed my mind, I want it as an adult now.

[Fuzzbucket]

I still personally disagree with this suggestion and hop that freezing remains permanent. As some one who generally prefers frozen sprites to adults I know I would not want to use this action. And I would be concerned with people trying to harass those who had a dragon like a frill that was discontinued or a holiday that was frozen to try to talk them into un-freezing them, making them feel bad for their choices they made. I could also see people going and yelling at people for "freezing" babies that were their dragons children and telling them off for it and trying to "require" them to make them unfrozen. I know I've had people tell me off for freezing a hatchie I got in the ap... and it's not fun. Being able to unfreeze hatchies would make this an even more common thing and verbose.

 

When you freeze a dragon you are asked to confirm that you want to do the action as it is permanant. So we have a choice already if we want the dragons as adults or as babies forever. It would kind of take away part of the fun of freezing if you could just be like oh I changed my mind, I want it as an adult now.

But we didn't know - those of us who took the option - that holidays would become unlimited., The decisions were made on a basis that has since changed. I can SORT of see your point - though I would prefer VERY clear limits - for people who use it to get around scroll limits; I think to have a situation where you have a full scroll of hatchies you were going to allow to grow up and someone offers you a stupendous something - so you freeze them in the knowledge that you can unfreeze them next week and carry on. That's NOT OK in my book. Also for holidays where you could hatch and freeze and keep catching - especially Hallowee'n !

 

But I have a lot of sympathy for people who froze a yulebuck so as to have that sprite for ever, and would now like to change that and freeze a bred one instead, as THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. They knew, when they froze it, that the holiday limits were for ever too. But they weren't.

 

I'd support it with insta-adulthood and a tight limit on numbers and timing (you can't unfreeze for a year and a day, for instance (to prevent any holiday abuses !)

[Melisande]

The rules may have changed for catching dragons, but when they were frozen we were asked if we would make it permanent or not.

 

 

Making it so that you can unfreeze any dragon you have frozen when you decide ok I'm done with it being frozen takes way the point of freezing kind of. It takes away that mechanic of being permanent. Like releasing a dragon or killing one (unless you are trying to get a zombie) it's permanent and there is no way to get it back.

 

There is a risk factor in every decision we make in the game, to some extent. Do I grab this egg now or save room in case a rare pops up. Do I breed these dragons or those ones. Do I let this dragon grow up do I freeze it.

 

I think making it so you could unfreeze a dragon would take away part of what makes DC so unique and special. We have those choices that we can make and that is part of the fun, planning who to freeze, planning who to breed. Making it so one of the fundamental actions of the game is not a risk choice like all the other actions undermines the structure of the game.

 

Myself I have frozen holiday dragons when they came out, and even with the new catching rules I am still ok with having frozen them when I did. I am very happy I did it, and every time I get a message from some one who is trying to make me feel bad about it I report them, because it's just uncalled for. If there was the option to unfreeze them I can see these people potentially attacking those of us who chose to freeze our holiday dragons, and want to keep them frozen.

 

Freezing is an important part of how the game is played, and by changing the fact that it is permanent or not would change the way the game is played and make it so freezing didn't mean anything.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Melisande

[Ruby Eyes]

But I have a lot of sympathy for people who froze a yulebuck so as to have that sprite for ever, and would now like to change that and freeze a bred one instead, as THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. They knew, when they froze it, that the holiday limits were for ever too. But they weren't.

Yup, there is that tiny inconsistency with changed rules and consequences ...

 

I'd support it with insta-adulthood and a tight limit on numbers and timing (you can't unfreeze for a year and a day, for instance (to prevent any holiday abuses !)

An actual abuse of saving frozen hatchlings for later I can see with Halloween breeds, as they have always been limited only by your scroll and incubating capacity. Like, hatch, freeze, unfreeze en masse later. That method kind of raises your capacity for CB Halloweens by how much? A whopping 16 for a Gold trophy scroll because that's all you can freeze? But you have to wait for a long time to actually be able to use them, with the various limitations suggested here.

[Fuzzbucket]

The rules may have changed for catching dragons, but when they were frozen we were asked if we would make it permanent or not.

Which we did knowing for a fact that there would never be another way to own a frozen hatchling.

 

That's what makes it reasonable to ask for this change.

 

I have no axe to grind here - I don't own any frozen CB holidays. But I do feel for those who do.

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

Which we did knowing for a fact that there would never be another way to own a frozen hatchling.

 

That's what makes it reasonable to ask for this change.

 

I have no axe to grind here - I don't own any frozen CB holidays. But I do feel for those who do.

This, basically.

 

Just saying that we clicked that button/confirmation and knew what we were getting into.... That just doesn't cut it anymore, because things have *changed*. If I froze a holiday dragon UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that I could never get more, I was playing by the rules at the time. NOW we *can* get more, RULES have changed, and I think the game should bend a little to make those rules fair.

[DragonLady86]

The rules may have changed for catching dragons, but when they were frozen we were asked if we would make it permanent or not.

 

 

Making it so that you can unfreeze any dragon you have frozen when you decide ok I'm done with it being frozen takes way the point of freezing kind of. It takes away that mechanic of being permanent. Like releasing a dragon or killing one (unless you are trying to get a zombie) it's permanent and there is no way to get it back.

 

Gotta note this here: killing a dragon is NOT always permanent, you can attempt to revive once as long as the tombstone is still there. and not just at during Halloween for zombies either. I have at least 3 dragons on my scroll that were dead and no longer are.

 

 

How does it change DC being special to allow unfreezeing? It didn't make it unspecial to have more than 4 eggs, or multiple biomes. Removing holiday limits didn't make the game less special or finally being able to release zombies. And both of those were long term, PERMENANT rules: Two holidays of each type, period. Zombies are forever locked to the scroll, can not be killed or released.

 

I like the hatchlings sprites better too, but I do have a few I wouldn't mind letting grow up. I have never been harassed for freezing anything, and I have quite a few frozen. but the simple solution to that is: report them to a mod and then block them from PMing me. My dragons, I'll freeze them if I want.

[Melisande]

How does it change DC being special to allow unfreezeing?

Part of the challenge of this game is the consequence of our actions. I was actually saying this in another thread about the change to releases but it is relevant here a well.

 

DC has always been a game where you collect dragons. Part of the challenge of the game is the limits we have and weather to choose to freeze things or let them grow. Do we breed this one or that one, do we leave room on our scroll in case there is a new release or do we catch more now.

 

When you freeze a dragon it asks if you want to freeze it and that it is permanent. When we froze our holidays, yes we had no idea that TJ was going to make it so you could get more. But that's the thing, we still made a choice.

 

I am against unfreezing because it would make the consequences of the action mean nothing. Just because something changed going forward does not mean it should effect past actions. Yes things change, but some things should not be changed and should be left alone.

 

I would see unfreezing an old holiday dragon as an unfair advantage to newer players, as other can get something older and special and they still have no way to get them.

 

If you are going to regret freezing something then don't click the button. TJ never said he would not increase the holiday limit, so him making a change should not effect what you have done in the past when you did agree that the change would be permanent on your scroll.

[Ruby Eyes]

I would see unfreezing an old holiday dragon as an unfair advantage to newer players, as other can get something older and special and they still have no way to get them.

There will always be the "advantage" of having been somewhere longer than someone else. There are people with CB Hollies and CB Valentine's, and they make nice lineages with them. It's not unfair that they have them and I do not; it's simply their reward for "having been there" when I was not. Enabling them now to unfreeze their CB hatchlings and breed twice as many pretty lineages is not necessarily unfair to newer players, it actually means that newer players have more chances than before at getting offspring from these old breeds. That seems like a win for them, in my eyes, because many old players with holiday CBs don't play anymore and thus don't breed them anymore, which severely limits the market to those who already have their share of rares and shinies - it's really not a market for newbies as it is today. Is that fair?

 

TJ never said he would not increase the holiday limit ...

He didn't? He said, limit per scroll is two. Period. And that was fact for every christmas and valentine release for several years ever since the beginning. Limit per scroll is two. Period. He even implemented a page where everyone could check their breed limits, with links to the dragons in question. There was absolutely zero hint that he would change that all of a sudden, especially not at the time when the conditions were clearly "limit per scroll is two." You said it yourself:

... yes we had no idea that TJ was going to make it so you could get more ...

Clearly, times have changed. Minds have changed. The bossman has changed his mind about the limits, and we (well, some of us) changed our minds about freezing certain hatchlings.

[olympe]

I still think that a general change of the unfreezing action is something worth considering. And not just because of frozen holidays or frozen frills / BPs because that really wouldn't seem fair at all. At least not to me. Either it should be available for every frozen hatchie (with strict limits to prevent abuse), or not at all.

[RainDear]

When I first saw this topic, my immediate, knee-jerk reaction was - "NO WAY!! You knew going in that freezing that hatchling was permanent. You have to live with the consequences of that decision." - but I watched this thread and saw the various limitations people came up with to be sure it wouldn't be abused, thought about the different arguments in favor of it and realized that done properly I really don't have an objection to it. I even posted a suggestion for adding it to the game.

 

I really don't have a horse in this race. I have no frozen holidays and only a handful of frozen dragons, so this won't really affect me as long as it's done with limits that prevent it being abused to bypass scroll limits, and the players who want it are doing a great job of suggesting ways to do that.

 

When I started playing naming was permanent, if you misspelled a name or gave a female dragon a name you wanted to give a male or otherwise made an error in naming - you were stuck with it. At the time, killing was the only way to remove a name or remove a dragon from your scroll. I wound up killing 1 dragon because I had named it incorrectly. Just 1 week before renaming became possible.

 

Trades had to go to the AP and be caught by the intended recipient before another grabbed the egg. If someone else caught the egg it was rightfully theirs and you had to accept that outcome.

 

Players come up with ideas that they feel will improve their game play experience. Other players accept or reject these ideas based on how they feel their game play will be affected. Sometimes most players like the idea and TJ considers adding it to the game. Other times most players reject the idea and it dies by the roadside. Often, I don't see some of these ideas having any effect on my game at all, so I don't offer an opinion on them. This one will only affect me if it can be abused to bypass scroll limits. As long as there are limits in force to prevent this, I see no reason to withhold it from those who it would benefit.

[edwardelricfreak]

The things I want to unfreeze *aren't even holidays* if anyone wanted another example other than fixing holidays. They were hatchlings that were accidentally frozen when I thought I didn't have one yet, for the most part. (I really should have probably checked but I'm very forgetful so even if I *do* check I forget right away)

 

Everyone's talking about how it would benefit those with CB holidays they froze, and yes I feel for them and want this mostly implemented for that reason, but I have stuff I'd like to unfreeze that AREN'T holidays!

 

And sadly, those freezes are permanent right now. :\ It really bothers me having certain things frozen that I don't want frozen, particularly a CB Mint, actually! I'm always wanting to breed them with new releases and I never have enough. But really, the extra frozens I don't want like the Harvests and Nocturnes are bothersome at best. I don't want to kill them, or release them! I want to *keep* them but not as they are. :\

[Fuzzbucket]

Now that you mention it, I wish I hadn't frozen that CB red dorsal...

[KageSora]

Part of the challenge of this game is the consequence of our actions. I was actually saying this in another thread about the change to releases but it is relevant here a well.

I don't play DC because I like having to weigh my options and be consonantly reminded that one little mistake can destroy everything I've worked for and force me to either start over or give up. I play DC because I like collecting little pixel dragons.

 

DC has always been a game where you collect dragons.  Part of the challenge of the game is the limits we have and weather to choose to freeze things or let them grow. Do we breed this one or that one, do we leave room on our scroll in case there is a new release or do we catch more now.

 

Back in the old days if you made a zombie, you were forever stuck with it. That's changed. People who had a zombie from before that date are allowed to get rid of those older zombies. Back in the old days zombies took up a kill slot so if you killed 5 you'd never get to use that action again. But that's changed and they don't do that anymore. Back in the old days, the limit was 4 eggs. But that's changed with trophies.

 

Limits are constantly changing around here, and I don't see why freezing is magically different than any of those other changes that have improved the game.

 

When you freeze a dragon it asks if you want to freeze it and that it is permanent.  When we froze our holidays, yes we had no idea that TJ was going to make it so you could get more.  But that's the thing, we still made a choice. 

 

It's been brought up before, but "permanent" isn't always actually permanent. There are a LOT of times when something will be "forever discontinued" only for it to later be made available. When people killed a dragon and made a zombie, they had no idea that TJ would eventually add in a function to get rid of them if you changed your mind. They made their choice, but now they're allowed to change their mind and undo that. So why is freezing somehow different?

 

I am against unfreezing because it would make the consequences of the action mean nothing.  Just because something changed going forward does not mean it should effect past actions. Yes things change, but some things should not be changed and should be left alone.

 

I don't know where you're getting this "consequences mean nothing". Nobody's asking to be able to freeze then unfreeze willy-nilly. There are plenty of proposed restrictions in place that would make changing your mind on a whim impossible and inconvenient. You'd still have to wait and deal with it plenty of time before you could undo it. You wouldn't be able to just have no consequences.

 

I would see unfreezing an old holiday dragon as an unfair advantage to newer players, as other can get something older and special and they still have no way to get them. 

 

Except I'm not getting something older and special--I already have something older and special. I'm not asking to be allowed to get more than I have. I just want to be able to change what I do with what I currently already have.

 

Also, this isn't just for holidays--this is for unfreezing ANYTHING. Sometimes people change their mind. Additionally, if I had a second CB holiday I could breed, that would mean me dropping more nice-lineaged eggs into the AP. Which means more nice things for newer players as opposed to me not doing that because I'd rather breed for myself.

 

If you are going to regret freezing something then don't click the button.  TJ never said he would not increase the holiday limit, so him making a change should not effect what you have done in the past when you did agree that the change would be permanent on your scroll.

 

...You do realize that nobody ever clicks that button knowing they'll regret it later, right? The regret is often because of an evolution of the game that at one point was 100% in the "never going to happen" category. Other regret is simply "Oh man, that was really silly of me to do that... I changed how I play the game and that would be useful now."

[angelicdragonpuppy]

^ Bless the above post!

 

Seriously, plenty of "THIS SHALL BE THE WAY FOREVER" things have changed around DC. Holiday limits got removed for bred Valentines / Christmas dragons. People got ways to remove zombies. Egg limits increased. Frills are likely soon to return. Eggs used to come in multiples for even normal breeding and now they don't. I think where were some other things too but I forget them... <___<;;

 

But yah. Stuff changes. And at the end of the day, DC is just meant to be a fun, low stress game. Allowing people to do more with what they already have has extremely low, if any, impact on other players and thus isn't really worth a big fight. The proposed restrictions will still make freezing something to take seriously (who wants to wait a whole year to use something??), and they'll prevent a lot of other potential abuses as well. So let's go ahead and do it!

[DragonNighthowler]

I want to add my support to this suggestion. It doesn't affect me, as I am not a fan of frozen hatchlings and the only one I have is a messy yulebuck with a cute story that I'm not going to unfreeze. But I see how it does affect other players, and the points given in favor of it are very good, including the restrictions proposed to avoid abuse.

 

Kage Sora made some very good points in his last post. I know humans are notorially neophobous, but the cave has changed and it keeps changing. This will not affect other's gameplay (like the retired breed proposal), so why not?

[kerrikins]

I'm still 'meh' on this to be honest, because the action so very clearly tells you what you're about to do and that it'll be permanent.

 

That said, I've decided I'll support this as long as holidays are not included. I'd even push for rares but I will settle for holidays.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

It makes no sense logically or practically to exclude holidays. :/