Unfreezing

[cyradis4]

It is not a loophole, it's an aditional feature. Again, the problem is that what you call loophole I call feature. It's defiitely a problem of different ways of thinking. It's okay, no harm feelings.

I see what you are suggesting as a loophole. Therefore, to me, it is a loophole. A loophole I would GLADLY abuse, a LOT.

 

IF.... TJ were to implement it.

 

TJ warned us at the beginning of the thread (can someone find it? I don't have the time today) about loopholes and being sure we closed them AND that we take care that abuses weren't possible. TJ has, to date, shown no interest in letting people get around scroll limits. Just the opposite!

 

Given his past record, until and unless he comes here and says that he doesn't view the 90 days as abusable, then my understanding of his past posts is that this sort of loophole is NOT acceptable.

 

I want unfreezing to be possible.

Therefore, I am obliged to fight for a suggestion that has a chance of being implemented. Your suggestion, from everything I've seen in the past from TJ (and I'm very active in Suggestions!) is that it is NOT acceptable. TJ has not come out and said that: its based on my experience here in Suggestions, from his past posts.

 

Even if we settle on a given suggestion, TJ will implement the suggestion he likes best, and NOT the general consensus, as he proved in the "Raising Holiday Limits" thread. What was implemented was one of the suggestions, but it was not the one consensus had landed on. It was very similar, and was simpler to implement (I'd imagine).

 

So far, you are the ONLY person who hasn't viewed the 90 days as a loophole.

 

C4.

 

PS: Don't bother bringing nationality into it. You want a way around hatchie limits, I want a way to undo freezes made under different rules. "Creativity" has nothing to do with it, especially since we've been talking about just that possibility from the git go of this thread. So at best, its plagiarizing instead of creativity.

[Fuzzbucket]

I see what you are suggesting as a loophole. Therefore, to me, it is a loophole. A loophole I would GLADLY abuse, a LOT.

 

IF.... TJ were to implement it.

 

TJ warned us at the beginning of the thread (can someone find it? I don't have the time today) about loopholes and being sure we closed them AND that we take care that abuses weren't possible. TJ has, to date, shown no interest in letting people get around scroll limits. Just the opposite!

 

Given his past record, until and unless he comes here and says that he doesn't view the 90 days as abusable, then my understanding of his past posts is that this sort of loophole is NOT acceptable.

 

I want unfreezing to be possible.

Therefore, I am obliged to fight for a suggestion that has a chance of being implemented. Your suggestion, from everything I've seen in the past from TJ (and I'm very active in Suggestions!) is that it is NOT acceptable. TJ has not come out and said that: its based on my experience here in Suggestions, from his past posts.

 

Even if we settle on a given suggestion, TJ will implement the suggestion he likes best, and NOT the general consensus, as he proved in the "Raising Holiday Limits" thread. What was implemented was one of the suggestions, but it was not the one consensus had landed on. It was very similar, and was simpler to implement (I'd imagine).

 

So far, you are the ONLY person who hasn't viewed the 90 days as a loophole.

 

C4.

 

PS: Don't bother bringing nationality into it. You want a way around hatchie limits, I want a way to undo freezes made under different rules. "Creativity" has nothing to do with it, especially since we've been talking about just that possibility from the git go of this thread. So at best, its plagiarizing instead of creativity.

TJ's original post in a now-closed thread has been added to the first post by the lovely LibbyLishly

 

He said then:

It's interesting that this discussion is revolving around a lot of different things regarding game mechanics (under the guise of the term "rules"), and when they can and can't change. One of the important distinctions that I think has been overlooked in the comparisons between holiday limits and this suggestion is that one involved removing a game mechanic completely, whereas this suggestion is for making a one-time exception to the established "rules," rather than actually changing. Although such an exception would set a precedent for future exceptions, it doesn't involve any real change to how DC works.

 

In general, I'm not really in favor of making such exceptions. If there are cases where exceptions are necessary, it probably means that the mechanic is flawed, meaning there are more fundamental problems at hand.

 

For example, in this case, the argument comes down to: should freezing be permanent? Those who froze their CB holidays years ago certainly did so with the expectation that it would be, but is it reasonable to believe that changes in conditions should give people the chance to revise their decisions?

 

I happen to believe not--there will almost certainly always be cases where an action is performed that the user later regrets, and while good software usability might dictate that users should be able to undo their changes as much as possible, the concept of making mistakes is a fundamental part of games that, when removed, takes away from the positive reaction of succeeding.

 

tl;dr: I don't like making exceptions to rules, and I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me that doing so in this case is worthwhile, nor have I seen anything to indicate that the underlying mechanism of permanent freezing is flawed. Feel free to create a thread to discuss that (yes, I know people have done so in the past, and have been shot down because "freezing is meant to be permanent." That sort of negative reaction to topics in suggestions is whole other discussion).

 

And in THIS thread, he has said (all bolds are mine):

I guess that works, though it creates more complication than simply thinking of un-freezing as transforming a frozen hatchling into an adult (rather than actually unfreezing).

 

Especially since you have to start bringing in more restrictions (like preventing such hatchlings from being traded or abandoned, etc).

 

and

For what it's worth, I'm mostly indifferent on this as long as it can't be "abused" (i.e. used to obtain adults faster than raising them normally) and generally behaves in an intuitive manner.

 

and:

It's important to figure out which goals are important, because they determine how things behave.

 

If people want to be able to undo accidentally-frozen hatchlings, then something that only works when the hatchling would still have time left solves that, but it doesn't deal with dragons from long ago.

 

On the other hand, solutions for hatchlings frozen way back would either need to grow up instantly or have time added back to them as hatchlings, which wouldn't work for recent freezes (if you don't want to open exploits).

 

If you did both based on when it was frozen, now it behaves inconsistently.

 

He has raised the issue of exploitation more than once - and that is what we are almost all trying to deal with.

 

What Kage (except for the ghastly bit about no more lineages ) and cyradis have said is exactly it - including the bit about nationality, which was a low and inappropriate blow. You really are NOT understanding the point here. It really isn't about creativity - Brazilian or any other.

 

Edited - quotes went weird....

Edited July 22, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[LibbyLishly]

Thank you for hunting down all those quotes, fuzz! If I may read between the lines, it seems that TJ also prefers the simple insta-adult over restoring hatchlings to growth. I would love for him to pop in and tell us if he thinks the year-long wait period is reasonable, too - but "Summon TJ" isn't a forum action yet.

Edited July 22, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[XiziX]

Thank you for hunting down all those quotes, fuzz!  If I may read between the lines, it seems that TJ also prefers the simple insta-adult over restoring hatchlings to growth. I would love for him to pop in and tell us if he thinks the year-long wait period is reasonable, too - but "Summon TJ" isn't a forum action yet.

Could you imagine the shiny button on the side of the post? Like an emergency button to summon TJ? Red flashing lights explode everywhere and in comes TJ. Dun Dun Duuunnn!

 

*Snort*

 

 

I am still in favor of the insta-adult. To be completely honest, I am all in for this suggestion because of my past frozen holidays. We were told two per scroll and that was permanent. I don't think it's fair if we are told that we should have know it would change...because I am not a mind reader or future predictor. (As awesome as it sounds. ) Also beating a dead horse here, but yea. >.<

 

However, I am a little unhappy with some of the things said in the last two pages...but that's just me. Wont say much else on it due to the....stuff being said.

 

Also thanks for the quotes! It helps to see everything condensed into a single post of how TJ feels.

[edwardelricfreak]

ok, so I'm just gonna sum up what I'd like to see happen most (I'm good with most of the ideas but these are particularly what I'd prefer to see).

 

-frozen hatchling must be at least 6 months-1 year old (I'd prefer the shorter time, but the whole year is also fine. Any longer would be too long).

---I don't really understand why additional days would be needed. I'd have to reread the ideas again to understand. I think it was basically for similar reasoning behind the idea of making the unfrozen adults incapable of breeding/using BSAs (basically preventing them from being usable right away).

-when unfrozen, the hatchlings become adults instantly, but they are incapable of breeding (much like holidays when they first grow up) for the full breeding cooldown, and if they are capable of using a BSA, that BSA is also on its cooldown as if it were just used. I don't think any other actions (Describe, Name, Kill, or Release) need to be limited at all because they have the same nature as when the dragon was still a hatchling.

-I don't care if it's a BSA or just an action. If it's an action, I don't really know what good restrictions there would be. I think I saw 1 or 2 a month or something, which would be fine imo. I think that kind of limit would be better in tandem with the adult's restrictions and a 6 month restriction on the hatchling in the first place. I think the full year would just be overkill. At that point, why bother having a set number per month? The adults' are already limited so it's not as much of a problem, even if someone did a bunch of hatchlings at once.

-If it's a BSA, then idk what I would want. I saw good things in the Cassare BSA thread. I'd prefer an action, but I want a BSA more than I want nothing. Some of the restrictions here can still apply for the BSA. The main difference is the amount of hatchlings that can be done at one time (limited by amount of Cassares) and the BSA's cooldown.

 

Just a summary of my thoughts, which I've mentioned before but I thought I would put into one post.

 

I really would like to see both hatchling age and amount per month or whatever be requirements, not independent choices.

 

With hatchling age, I also wouldn't mind if you could attempt to unfreeze them beforehand anyway. I like the idea of there being a failure rate if you try to unfreeze before they get to 6 months, a year, or whatever the time is. I think for most of the time, nothing at all would happen. Sometimes, it will be successful completely. Sometimes, it will be successful but the adult will be released (maybe?). Sometimes, it won't be successful and the hatchling will be released. Sometimes, it won't be successful and the hatchling will be killed, taking up a Kill slot. It would be a big gamble, but it would be the price you have to pay for trying to unfreeze before the hatchling is old enough. Oh, and with the limited amount per month as well, it takes up one of those slots.

[urusta]

Also, as I pointed out way before, a 12-month wait to unfreeze doesn't what it is supposed to do regarding holidays. The breeding season won't be over before you can unfreeze, so the penalty you want for the "freeze-then-unfreeze-holidays-to-get-more-of-them" scenario doesn't apply. As a matter of fact, it can easily be sidestepped:

Step one: Catch and/or breed 7 eggs on the first day of the holiday breeding season.

Step two: Incubate and hatch them as quickly as possible. They should then hatch on day 3 of the breeding week. Freeze at once.

Step three: Catch and or breed 7 eggs on the third day of the breeding week.

Step four: Incubate, hatch and freeze as fast as possible. The freezing should happen on day 5 of the breeding week.

Step five, one year later: It's the third day of the holiday breeding week. Unfreeze your holiday hatchlings from the previous year. Ta-daa, you got 7 new breedable adults.

Step six: Same as step five, only on day 5 of that holiday breeding week.

 

See what I mean? Either, you'd need a wait period of 13 months, or the freshly unfrozen adults need to be on a one-week breeding cooldown. Or we can do away with the wait period altogether.

After lurking a bit around this thread, I stumbled upon this one example. As far as I can tell, this is a big issue, because someone could get more holiday dragons. But is that not still possible, even with the 13 month wait? It would not be the next year, but the year after that. The way to use that loophole just takes longer, but it is not patched by extending it. The year later you would still have more breedable dragons. And danicasts suggestion still holds true only the waiting times are longer. So it would be something for someone patient, but as dragcave players tend to be, they are patient, so it would always be a way to higher the amounts of dragon raised.

 

I know new suggestion in another thread are not very appreciated, but to patch this wait-loophole I personally only see one way: freezing and unfreezing only possible for gendered hatchlings and the freezing for the gendered hatchlings instead of growing up, so one always has to wait the full time. (Yeah the idea is partially stolen from olympe) So freezing ahead of time would only work on ungendered hatchies, as well as unfreezing only on gendered hatchies, that are frozen on the time they are supposed to grow up.

If a mod thinks, that suggestion does not entirely belong here, a new thread can be made and this post here deleted. But this suggestion is mostly only because of the unfreezing debate. If unfreezing does not come around it is moot to change a working system.

[olympe]

Well, I know it's impossible to stop people from freezing, then unfreezing additional holiday dragons. However, with a 13-month-wait, you'd be deprived of one breeding season (as well as a full year of breeding non-holidays for lineage purposes). Not to mention, these people would have to trade for all additional holiday dragons anyway. Alternately, a 12-month wait with the dragon being on cooldown for pretty much everything (breeding, BSA use) would accomplish the same thing.

 

Add a one-per-month unfreeze limit, and you have a maximum of 12 extra holiday dragons per year - instead of 48 (with a gold trophy: 16 Valentines, 16 Halloweens and 16 Christmases). I think that this is restrictive enough, pretty simple to understand, as fair as can be - and yet, it still serves its purpose of unfreezing the occasional frill, bright pink or holiday hatchling or simple mis-freeze.

 

Of course, we'd need a message for the Unfreeze action that clearly states that the dragon will turn into an adult instantly and that it won't be able to breed or use a BSA for one week.

 

Unfreeze: Unfreeze this hatchling. It will instantly turn into an adult. This adult cannot breed or use a BSA for one week.

 

This action should only appear on a frozen hatchling's actions page. (Probably with the exception of zombie hatchlings, as they're pretty much undead and this could be exploited, too. Just let many hatchlings run out of time to save kill slots, revive and unfreeze - and you have an adult zombie army.)

 

[DragonLady86]

After lurking a bit around this thread, I stumbled upon this one example. As far as I can tell, this is a big issue, because someone could get more holiday dragons. But is that not still possible, even with the 13 month wait? It would not be the next year, but the year after that. The way to use that loophole just takes longer, but it is not patched by extending it. The year later you would still have more breedable dragons. And danicasts suggestion still holds true only the waiting times are longer. So it would be something for someone patient, but as dragcave players tend to be, they are patient, so it would always be a way to higher the amounts of dragon raised.

 

I know new suggestion in another thread are not very appreciated, but to patch this wait-loophole I personally only see one way: freezing and unfreezing only possible for gendered hatchlings and the freezing for the gendered hatchlings instead of growing up, so one always has to wait the full time. (Yeah the idea is partially stolen from olympe) So freezing ahead of time would only work on ungendered hatchies, as well as unfreezing only on gendered hatchies, that are frozen on the time they are supposed to grow up.

If a mod thinks, that suggestion does not entirely belong here, a new thread can be made and this post here deleted. But this suggestion is mostly only because of the unfreezing debate. If unfreezing does not come around it is moot to change a working system.

I'm not really sure I understand your suggestion. What difference does it make if a hatchling is gendered or not? Not being able to freeze un-gendered hatchlings would upset A LOT of players, myself included. Nor do I see why only gendered frozen should be able to unfrozen. Unlike in the past, an un-gendered hatchling can not reach the gendered stage if given enough time.

 

I also say that a year is plenty long enough. Yes, in theory extra BRED hatchlings for holidays could breed the next year. So what? That means, at best the player is creating 3rd gens which, generally, no one wants anyway. It's not like anyone is racking up a major trading opportunity. And if they stick around for a full year AND remember to unfreeze with time to breed (which would take work, to hit that small window.) then let them. I just don't see that it would make that much difference, if any.

[olympe]

That's exactly why I suggested very strict scroll-wide limits instead of a 1-year wait.

[LibbyLishly]

With the one-month scroll limit, I do think there should also be at least a one-month wait period so that people can't cheat the system and get adults in less time than it would have taken to raise a hatchling.

 

I do apologize if you mentioned that already and I just overlooked it. |-D

Edited July 24, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[Guillotine]

That's exactly why I suggested very strict scroll-wide limits instead of a 1-year wait.

What would be your upper limit for the scroll-wide limit? I think 1/month is a bit too restrictive, but i totally understand wanting to prevent abuse and kind of want a middle ground.

 

And yes, there should be a wait time, regardless of the scroll limit. ~3 months, maybe?

 

(I personally would prefer 2/month if we're doing scroll-wide limits, but I don't mind the harsher 1/month; it's just a curiosity thing.)

[urusta]

I'm not really sure I understand your suggestion. What difference does it make if a hatchling is gendered or not? Not being able to freeze un-gendered hatchlings would upset A LOT of players, myself included. Nor do I see why only gendered frozen should be able to unfrozen. Unlike in the past, an un-gendered hatchling can not reach the gendered stage if given enough time.

 

I also say that a year is plenty long enough. Yes, in theory extra BRED hatchlings for holidays could breed the next year. So what? That means, at best the player is creating 3rd gens which, generally, no one wants anyway. It's not like anyone is racking up a major trading opportunity. And if they stick around for a full year AND remember to unfreeze with time to breed (which would take work, to hit that small window.) then let them. I just don't see that it would make that much difference, if any.

This suggestions is more or less a freezing revamp. The normal freezing action would only be usable on ungendered hatchies. In the action panel from gendered hatchlings another option (I have no good name, so lets call it freeze II) would appear, leading the gendered hatchling to a frozen state at the time it would normally grow up. They then would not be able to be frozen ahead of time.

So then, if only gendered frozen can be unfrozen the loophole of freezing a hatchie as early as possible and unfreeze it a year later to breed the year afterwards (in case of holidays) and thus indirectly upping the hatchie raising limit, would not be present. I do not know how ´strict´ the phrase ´as long as it cannot be abused´ is. For me, leaving that loophole open, would be enabling to abuse it on the longterm (in my opinion), but I am rather strict when it comes to such things. So it would be a loophole, albeit a rather tedious and lengthy one, but it remains a loophole. I can not say if it is terrible enough to shoot down the suggestion or not. That was why I stated that idea.

Also it would be more logical to me, to only be able to unfreeze gendered hatchies. How would the gender of the hatchie been decided if an ungendered is unfrozen? Intuitively I would say it remains ungendered, but that would not really be, what the action was supposed to be used for. Or would pinks be able to influence the frozen hatchie to become one or the other gender?

[InugamiZERO]

a dragon's gender is decided when it hatches

[olympe]

What would be your upper limit for the scroll-wide limit? I think 1/month is a bit too restrictive, but i totally understand wanting to prevent abuse and kind of want a middle ground.

 

And yes, there should be a wait time, regardless of the scroll limit. ~3 months, maybe?

 

(I personally would prefer 2/month if we're doing scroll-wide limits, but I don't mind the harsher 1/month; it's just a curiosity thing.)

I'd really suggest 1/month. Because that's pretty much (barely?) enough to serve its intended purpose of undoing a few past mistakes, but far from enough to allow cheating of scroll limits in a substantial form. It's also a very fair limit since it applies to everyone just the same, so neither newer nor older players, "freezers" or "non-freezers" nor any other group are getting preferential treatment.

 

However, if this gets implemented, TJ might just as well apply his own judgement, as he did with the holiday limits.

Edited July 24, 2014 by olympe

[edwardelricfreak]

I think 2/month is fine, too, actually. There are still enough restrictions already. Really, I would go no more than 3/month. o3o But that's just me.

[KageSora]

I'd personally like to just be able to unfreeze all my regrets at once, but the limitation is important to restrict potential abuse.

 

I'd rather see 2/month, but I agree that no more than 3/month at absolute maximum. 1/month does feel harsh, but at the same time it NEEDS to in order to help limit potential abuse.

[CNR4806]

With the one-month scroll limit, I do think there should also be at least a one-month wait period so that people can't cheat the system and get adults in less time than it would have taken to raise a hatchling.

 

I do apologize if you mentioned that already and I just overlooked it. |-D

Just make a seperate 7-day limit for freshly-frozen hatchlings if we do go with the monthly scroll unfreeze limit idea.

[InugamiZERO]

I don't know if this has been discussed yet

but I think it should be made that Zombie Hatchlings are excluded from unfreezing because the player did not freeze them, they are auto-frozen when revived

 

sorry I was working out my Zombie timing for Halloween and realized unfreezing could be used to try and get a lot of Zombie Adults in one year (the most adults we can get is 10 a year)

[olympe]

Yes, I pretty much mentioned it somewhere on this page - but nobody seemed to notice as we're in a discussion on limits right now. However, I do agree with you.

 

Although it is possible to create zombies from already frozen hatchlings where you actually did the freezing yourself, I feel that zombie hatchlings still shouldn't be getting an Unfreeze action because, well, they're undead and not living, growing creatures. Plus, there's the possible exploit you mentioned.

[DragonLady86]

I don't know if this has been discussed yet

but I think it should be made that Zombie Hatchlings are excluded from unfreezing because the player did not freeze them, they are auto-frozen when revived

 

sorry I was working out my Zombie timing for Halloween and realized unfreezing could be used to try and get a lot of Zombie Adults in one year (the most adults we can get is 10 a year)

Why would I want to unfreeze my zombies? the rotting little babies are so adorable. :3 but yes, dead things do not grow and shouldn't be able to.

[KageSora]

Why would I want to unfreeze my zombies? the rotting little babies are so adorable. :3 but yes, dead things do not grow and shouldn't be able to.

Mostly to abuse the feature to rapidly get adults.

 

For zombies, the kill limits act in a similar manner to the egg limit on the other Hallowweens work. You have a max you can obtain per year, but you can obtain more the next year.

 

Letting people unfreeze hatchlings to rapidly get the adults would be an exploit of the insta-adult to get around the kill-limit enforced cap.

 

So I definitely agree that zombie hatchlings shouldn't be unfreezable.

 

RP reasoning is simple, too--we didn't actually freeze them. The unholy result of the magic gone wrong brought them back as an animated corpse, preserving them from rotting away to nothing, but without life they cannot grow. They're not frozen in time, they're undead. There's just not an in-game mechanic difference even though they're not exactly the same thing.

[Pixxelation]

Worrying about people abusing it to obtain more holidays is silly. I have a friend (not naming them for their sake) who obtained 76ish CAVEBORN Shadow Walkers purely by strategically trading. If someone wants to hoard holidays, they'll be able to with the current limits. I HIGHLY doubt unfreezing would prevent that. And anyway, what's wrong with it if a user does that? I for one wouldn't because I'm picky with lineages and way too lazy to trade for all the hatchlings that would get me to the point where I'd need to freeze some to unfreeze later, but seriously, what's wrong with it? They already suffer two penalties: a large gap between the "hatched on" and "grew up on" dates and being unable to breed to commons for a prolonged period of time. I see no reason to further penalize them. I'd only support having to raise the hatchie from 7 days and being unable to trade it.

Edited July 27, 2014 by PieMaster

[olympe]

I've seen that scroll, too.

 

Yes, it is possible to get 76 or so dragons from a one-day release. However, this involves not only lots of trading, but also lots of planning, perfect timing and so on. In short: It takes effort.

 

If you could simply freeze and later unfreeze, you'd need not much good timing, much less planning and you don't need to be online nearly as much as without the freeze-then-unfreeze loophole.

[DragonLady86]

Mostly to abuse the feature to rapidly get adults.

 

For zombies, the kill limits act in a similar manner to the egg limit on the other Hallowweens work. You have a max you can obtain per year, but you can obtain more the next year.

 

Letting people unfreeze hatchlings to rapidly get the adults would be an exploit of the insta-adult to get around the kill-limit enforced cap.

 

So I definitely agree that zombie hatchlings shouldn't be unfreezable.

 

RP reasoning is simple, too--we didn't actually freeze them. The unholy result of the magic gone wrong brought them back as an animated corpse, preserving them from rotting away to nothing, but without life they cannot grow. They're not frozen in time, they're undead. There's just not an in-game mechanic difference even though they're not exactly the same thing.

My statement was at least partialy sarcasm. I prefer the zombie hatchlings and do not want anymore adults. Which is why I support the idea that zombies can't be unfrozen.

 

However, the RP reason is incorrect. At least half of mine were frozen before death. Yes, a zombie hatchling is auto-frozen, but not all of them were.

[Fuzzbucket]

My statement was at least partialy sarcasm. I prefer the zombie hatchlings and do not want anymore adults. Which is why I support the idea that zombies can't be unfrozen.

 

However, the RP reason is incorrect. At least half of mine were frozen before death. Yes, a zombie hatchling is auto-frozen, but not all of them were.

You can zombify a frozen hatchie ? How ?