Lineage view change

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I just don't think there IS a perfect solution to viewing lineages. Yes, lineages can get stretched and wonky and huge, but that's the nature of the beast. As Amazon said, you can't really stop exponential progression, so unless the lineage view is going to be minimized to death, you're always going to have scrolling on the larger pages. I mean, the only two alternatives I can think of would both involve scrolling still, anyway:

 

1) Making lineage pages true 'family trees' by putting all the ancestors at the top and the dragon in question at the bottom. This would mostly shift scrolling to horizontal rather than vertical, though.

 

2) Giving a shorter cut off point (maybe eight generations? nine?) and standardizing the size of lineage boxes, with text wrapping around if it doesn't fit.

 

The first is really just relocating the issue, and the second might discourage people who do long named lineages (like poetry and song ones) where having the text wrap would hurt the effect. So yahhh. I don't think there is a perfect system, and as I've spent the last 4+ years working with the previous system... I'd really just rather have it back. I'm open to lineage changes, but I'd like them to be carefully considered, we-get-a-say changes, not "here is a change, hold it until I maybe eventually come up with something better." X___x

Edited August 7, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Sycamore]

Dismissive, hyperbolic, and illogical? Where did TJ learn to have a “conversation”, on Reddit? The amount of attitude in those few, short lines is cringeworthy.

[dragongrrl]

Dismissive, hyperbolic, and illogical?  Where did TJ learn to have a “conversation”, on Reddit?  The amount of attitude in those few, short lines is cringeworthy.

I made a post immediately after ADP posted the "conversation" but thought better of it and deleted it. However, I still find the attitude expressed very insulting. The cat thing on top of that just seems surreal, like a very bad dream, and I really can't stand the smell of cat pee.

[tjekan]

TJ, I understand that you find the userbase change-aversive. There's some truth to that.

 

But by the same token, why are you so option-aversive? If people enjoy creating artistic lineages, then why is your response to a request for multiple lineage view options "No, because at that point I might have to make everything in the game optional?"

 

If it were such a slippery slope, then why do we have skins and different scroll sorting options to customize our scrolls with? How would lineage view options be any more subversive than those things?

 

People just plain don't like this change. It's true. But be honest here-- you just plain don't like the scroll options change many of us would prefer, either.

[Kelkelen]

23:27:18 Master Why not make an option under account settings for lineage views? Compact View vs. Expanded View.

 

23:27:31 TJ09 Master, why not make an option for everything ever in case someone dislikes it?

23:27:38 TJ09 Master, some people might not like the new release.

23:27:43 TJ09 Let's add a checkbox to hide those dragons.

Pardon me, TJ, but...seriously?

 

In a nutshell: that's incredibly rude, patronizing, dismissive, juvenile behavior, and the logic is flawed. How would it hurt to give a real answer? You know, like a professional adult who runs an online business.

 

Would it actually hurt to provide the option? For people who were completely happy how it was...like the roughly 70% evidenced in this poll? Would it eat up too much web space, be too much work? It's not as if the coding doesn't already exist, if you could just permit a toggle.

 

Why are you so swift to dismiss the playing style of the many even-gen builders, or even just lineage-focused players, who have been working within the previous system this whole time?

 

In fact... what was the problem? Were you receiving a large amount of player feedback saying that they wanted a more compact lineage view? Because as far as I can tell, and especially based on your evasive sarcasm, it seems like you made the changes just because of how *you* wanted it to look, never mind the people who have spent literally years building lineages with the former proportions in mind.

 

This isn't simply aversion to change. This is about something people have been building within their own collections, to look a certain way. It's different if you change the cave, the AP, the background -- those aren't the specific items people are collecting or, in the case of lineages, crafting. But in what is essentially a collectible game, people are reasonably upset when the items they have been collecting or combining are changed without their consent. When you meet their concerns and their polite behavior with snide mockery and belittling, and show no concern over the fact that you've essentially taken away something they put a lot of time into creating, without warning, it doesn't give people much incentive to stick around.

[Confused Cat]

Hi TJ, maybe you read this.

 

Are you aware that the way lineages were displayed was what players built their plans on? The look of the lineage page was what first inspired us to create lineages.

For many of us it is not "breed a long lineage, then see what it looks like", but "plan the final look and then start breeding".

The old lineage view was what we (at least many of us) used as the basis for our thoughts and plans.

 

There may be better ways to display lineages. If it had been different from the beginning, we would have created lineages that looked good with that other look.

But the change came, unexpectedly, after years of lineages based on the old look.

 

It's like you changed the carpet in a room where we spent years painting the walls so they looked good with that carpet. That doesn't mean your carpet is bad, maybe it's better than the old one.

But we feel sad because it makes the part of our work worthless that was based on the old carpet.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Confused Cat

[5icky]

Why not just have multiple options for lineage viewing.. You set it to how you view it from YOUR scroll.. So any lineage you look at would be set how you chose.. not how another person set it...

I don't know if that would work in coding... but it would please multiple people... >.<

I'm fine with the way it is, but i wouldn't mind a change so long as it doesn't make the pretty evengens/checkers or patterned lineages look messier

 

Edit: ok i'm stupid, i meant to say that it's probably been suggested like a million times

Edited August 7, 2013 by IcarusTheDragon

[Wiz]

We can view lineages with cat backgrounds after a throw away conversation in chat but we can't view them the way we spent years planning them to be viewed? Cats TJ? To 'appease' us?

 

I'm just treading water while I wait to see what the final changes are but 90% of the enjoyment of the game is gone for me. So I cancelled my subscription. I know you probably don't care about my measly $5 a month but it's the only way I feel has been left open to me to make a statement.

[Sycamore]

We can view lineages with cat backgrounds after a throw away conversation in chat but we can't view them the way we spent years planning them to be viewed? Cats TJ? To 'appease' us?

 

I'm just treading water while I wait to see what the final changes are but 90% of the enjoyment of the game is gone for me. So I cancelled my subscription. I know you probably don't care about my measly $5 a month but it's the only way I feel has been left open to me to make a statement.

Yeah, I'm sincerely hoping that the cats thing disappeared so quickly because there was a severe backlash. Not only was it... unwise to flaunt just how easy it is to make changes to the lineage view after ignoring the concerns of a huge portion of the playerbase for over a month, but to come right out and say that you're dismissing those same concerns and that you think some incredibly transparent and condescending 'distraction' is actually an appropriate response...?

 

Even if it was meant to be 'funny', it's hard to think of a worse combination of attitude and action - unless, of course, the goal is to drive people away who've been loyal to the site for years.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

To be honest, I thought the cat thing was pretty cute, and I'd like to see it return at some point (an April fool's gag that can stick around a few weeks?), but I do agree that the present timing left it half as funny as it could've been.

[Wiz]

Cute cats wasn't the problem so much as the reason it was done. To me it felt like a slap in the face.

[Fuzzbucket]

Cute cats wasn't the problem so much as the reason it was done. To me it felt like a slap in the face.

Who said why it was done ? I was just amused, and I MISS it - and someone said it was used to deceive in trades - HOW ??

 

I had a thought (no hitting..)

 

The best way to get EXACT SAME BOXES for lineages would be to have just the codes showing - that would be one viewing option that could be TOTALLY symmetrical...

[Pixxelation]

I had a thought (no hitting..)

 

The best way to get EXACT SAME BOXES for lineages would be to have just the codes showing - that would be one viewing option that could be TOTALLY symmetrical...

While yes, that could work, people who make lyric lineages, poetic lineages, or really any lineage where names are important, would be unable to enjoy the lineage feature as much as they used to. Some people don't even collect dragons with unnamed parents.

[Fuzzbucket]

While yes, that could work, people who make lyric lineages, poetic lineages, or really any lineage where names are important, would be unable to enjoy the lineage feature as much as they used to. Some people don't even collect dragons with unnamed parents.

Oh yes - I know (see under Blusangs on my scroll...) but it would be one way to see the checker, is all...

[Windy]

In my opinion, this lineage view is still better than the other versions suggested here.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Who said why it was done ? I was just amused, and I MISS it - and someone said it was used to deceive in trades - HOW ??

 

I had a thought (no hitting..)

 

The best way to get EXACT SAME BOXES for lineages would be to have just the codes showing - that would be one viewing option that could be TOTALLY symmetrical...

Shortly after I talked with TJ in chat, someone suggested he "throw cats on it" to make things better, and he said he was going off to work on it. I thought it was an irrelevant joke, so I didn't post that part of the conversation. But the fact that he broke his month long silence on the answer with a dismissive response (the flawed "maybe someone dislikes the new release" logic :/) and then decided to go make a lineage page joke while we're still sitting over here upset wasn't exactly amusing.

 

I do agree that saying it could be used to confuse people in trades was silly, though--all one had to do was change the link a bit to see it normally, after all.

[Wiz]

Who said why it was done ? I was just amused, and I MISS it - and someone said it was used to deceive in trades - HOW ??

 

The OP gave the history behind it in the first post of the thread. As to how it was used to deceive I have no idea.

[Pixxelation]

I was the OP of the cat lines thread, and was present in the IRC with ADP when it happened. ADP brought up the lineage view change to TJ, and I joined in in asking for the old version back. TJ refused to change it, and we were getting frustrated. Psyk jokingly suggested to throw cats at lineages, and TJ thought it was funny, so he did. I personally thought it was hilarious, despite the reasons, hence why I made the thread. I have the logs, but cannot access my main computer right now, so if anyone needs them, it'll be around ten days from me. Others likely have the log, though.

[LibbyLishly]

The best way to get EXACT SAME BOXES for lineages would be to have just the codes showing - that would be one viewing option that could be TOTALLY symmetrical...

See, that's another option that we could use if had settings that we could select to change the lineage view. The old one, the new one, one with codes only for perfect symmetry, other options that players have proposed...

 

I think it would be great to have a choice of all of them, so long as we weren't forced into one over another. If we can change our scroll sort and our scroll background and how many dragons we can view on one page, why not this?

 

We could even have the option of the cats, for heaven's sake. (I do think the cats were funny, and cute, and probably took no time at all to code. They were obviously unpolished. It helps that I adore cats and often picture my dragons in RP having little kitten pets of their own. Total rabbit trail. Sorry.)

Edited August 8, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[grammydragon]

hmmm, sometimes we can't see the forest because of the trees.

 

If TJ could do so quickly such a view change, why not the same

technique for lineage vs lineage-even option?

I know, somebody will tell me I am not tech savy. But this is

giving lots of opportunity to teach family all

you want to know and more about bullying.

 

Now I just need them to learn if management solves problems.

Edited August 8, 2013 by grammydragon

[whitebaron]

What I do know is adding the code to make cats appear as backgrounds does not require any where the same work that would be needed to make a permanent toggle for the lineage view things.

Sorry, but utterly wrong.

 

it takes a few minutes to code a toggle in JQUERY, and that's what TJ is using, after all. It would be very, very easy to implement a +size, -size, toggle codes, toggle names button.

 

-> proof.

http://joeh.org/~wb/lt/testlineage.html (hit load lineage, then try the buttons 1-6 or the toggles - it took all of 10 minutes to add that to my existing prototype.)

 

Of course, it requires javascript, and in my version, old internet explorers will not work (9+), but it is actually very easy to do...

[Amazon_warrior]

Sorry, but utterly wrong.

 

it takes a few minutes to code a toggle in JQUERY, and that's what TJ is using, after all. It would be very, very easy to implement a +size, -size, toggle codes, toggle names button.

 

-> proof.

http://joeh.org/~wb/lt/testlineage.html (hit load lineage, then try the buttons 1-6 or the toggles - it took all of 10 minutes to add that to my existing prototype.)

 

Of course, it requires javascript, and in my version, old internet explorers will not work (9+), but it is actually very easy to do...

I would like that in-cave, plz and thx.

[Natayah]

From TJ's quotes it sounds to me like he's "still working on it...." and will continue to be working on it because he believes that there is something "better" out there that can be done. You may disagree, but at least he's doing what he thinks is best for the game. So he's not out to destroy all joy and laughter.

 

I don't have an issue if its an ongoing project he's working with. People can make various suggestions and maybe he'll use them maybe he won't. But at least it wasn't "RAWR MIEN WAY .... " and he had a logical reason for his work. I mean, thats pretty much all I asked for was Hey is this gonna stay as it is, is it a work in progress, and was there a reason behind it.

 

I may or may not like the work in progress, I may love or not love the final product, but I did get what I wanted. And I still don't get why people are all (yes, I am going to use the less tactful word) uppity believing he has a responsibility to his user base. In a consumer driven free market, you vote with money. So unless a large mass are willing to vote enough to sink this game into financial chaos (which isn't likely since its gonna be really hard to pull that off with its income streams) ... I don't understand continuing to feel abused.

 

When you run a web business, how it looks and how it looks to multiple people makes a big deal. Wasted space is a big deal. So I get that and have nothing further to add as - well, it has logical business merit and I can't really argue with actively working to do what you believe secures your future. Because how things look is a pretty key issue beyond "oh pretty pictures" even though it wouldn't make sense on its face value.

 

I am satisfied with that response and totally get it.

Edited August 8, 2013 by natayah

[skauble]

From TJ's quotes it sounds to me like he's "still working on it...." and will continue to be working on it because he believes that there is something "better" out there that can be done. You may disagree, but at least he's doing what he thinks is best for the game. So he's not out to destroy all joy and laughter.

 

I don't have an issue if its an ongoing project he's working with. People can make various suggestions and maybe he'll use them maybe he won't. But at least it wasn't "RAWR MIEN WAY .... " and he had a logical reason for his work. I mean, thats pretty much all I asked for was Hey is this gonna stay as it is, is it a work in progress, and was there a reason behind it.

 

I may or may not like the work in progress, I may love or not love the final product, but I did get what I wanted. And I still don't get why people are all (yes, I am going to use the less tactful word) uppity believing he has a responsibility to his user base. In a consumer driven free market, you vote with money. So unless a large mass are willing to vote enough to sink this game into financial chaos (which isn't likely since its gonna be really hard to pull that off with its income streams) ... I don't understand continuing to feel abused.

 

When you run a web business, how it looks and how it looks to multiple people makes a big deal. Wasted space is a big deal. So I get that and have nothing further to add as - well, it has logical business merit and I can't really argue with actively working to do what you believe secures your future. Because how things look is a pretty key issue beyond "oh pretty pictures" even though it wouldn't make sense on its face value.

 

I am satisfied with that response and totally get it.

No matter what type of business you're running it's never a great idea to tell your patrons that they're unhappy with something because, basically, they're flawed. Don't get me wrong, people in business think that all the time, but they don't come out and say it to consumers...mostly because they'd like to remain in business.

 

It can be spun in a million different ways, but when customers say they want to end their business relationship with you, it's never a positive thing. It may not ruin a business, may not even dent it, but it's the opposite place of where you want to be with your clientele, and people who go on to be very successful in business generally stop and at least try to figure out where things went off track, even if they feel like they made a good decision. Because if it really isn't the product that's the problem, then often it's either the implementation or the public relations.

 

Here's the bottom line question -

 

If people spend less money or leave the site all together, does the change in question bring in enough players to either replace or, optimally, surpass the amount that left?

 

Because if the answer is no then it's a net loss. And I may be way off base, but even if it turns out looking like the sleekest page in adoptable gaming, I don't think that's going to be the deciding factor in people joining the game as it seems to be in people leaving it.

 

The thing is that this isn't just about the lineage folks. TJ's made it clear that he thinks that the user base is largely simply change-averse. So you can say that if just the people in this matter leave it isn't going to make a difference, but this will play out in other areas, and really, what is the percentage of customers that are completely expendable these days?

 

I'll be blunt here because I would actually really love to see this game be as successful as possible. This isn't a user base issue, and it's not a product issue, it's a PR issue.

 

People don't always like change. That's not news, that's just life. And when you're in a place where you need people - who don't always like change - to make your business successful, then you factor that in when you choose a course of action.

 

And that doesn't mean he needs to scrap the change. It just means that he should keep an eye out for players' issues and then be responsive. If he'd said, at the beginning of this, "I'm working on the lineage page because of X, Y, and Z, so there's going to be some changes for a few months while I figure out what's most functional for the site and the players. Leave feedback in this thread and at the end of the process I'll take what were the best changes and go from there" then this wouldn't have become what it has.

 

People like to feel like they're being listened to, and if you want to be successful you have to at least be able to fake that unless A. you're the only game in town, or B. your product is exceptional and no replacement will come close, or C. you've built a personal connection with your customers that engenders a fierce sense of loyalty. And none of those is the case here given that there are other web games to play, the product is what people are complaining about, and users are saying that they feel outright dismissed.

 

Seriously, I love my lineages and the page change bothers me. But as someone who genuinely does want to see DC succeed, it's the customer relations aspect that's really concerning me. Because this looks very likely to be a reoccurring theme.

[prpldrgnfr]

From what I get, the only reason the players are averse to change is *because* of the way they're done, with no warning, chance for input or opinions, and the dismissive attitude when we protest. If, as you suggested skauble, some heads up were provided, I think us players wouldn't dislike change nearly so much.

 

I play another, similar, free adoptables game, and the responsiveness of that game's admin team is *amazing*.