Lineage view change

[dragongrrl]

Except I don't see dots. If you go on mobile you can see them perfectly fine, and my comouter is broken so I see no problem with the lineages, since I'm pretty much on mobile most of the time, or on a tablet.

I don't play on mobile, and I don't expect that to change for a few years at least, if ever. I really "hate" the current view, and I do not use that word lightly. Why can't you consider the idea of selecting it as an option, if you're so happy with it?

 

Please restore the Even-gen views.

[grammydragon]

I don't even have a cell phone, and don't plan on doing any game "mobile"...

does the majority of the DC member base really only use mobile?

And for zoom, pixelated is just the first word to describe that mess.

If anyone thinks it makes sense I should use a magnifying glass just

to see a distorted lineage and try to determine what is in first gen,

then that person doesn't have any sense anyway in my opinion.

Edited August 6, 2013 by grammydragon

[skauble]

That's for the people who don't care about lineages. All they'll do is scroll over boxes saying, "Hey hey a colorful dragon" while the people who care about lineages will be the ones who take the time to go to the end and look at the sprite. If you have a problem with eyesight and just see tiny blurs just use the zoom button, and if you're on a phone or something you can pretty much easily see it. That's why I don't have a problem. It makes sense.

What's the point of changing the lineage view for people who don't want to look at lineages? If they don't care about what's in the lineage then why would the care if it was they old way?

 

A lot of the problem is about the fact that lineages have been designed and bred, often for years, to create certain forms, color schemes, etc. That's been a huge part of the game for a lot of players - the crafting of specific lineage types.

 

Now, if there's a really great reason why this had to change - like site performance was vastly improved - then a lot of us are open to hearing what those reasons are. But, barring a very compelling reason, this is simply a change that has, for many players, destroyed things they've worked extremely hard to make (because catching and breeding long even gens is not all that easy).

 

It's like if someone drew a picture and then I rearranged one side of it so that it still had all of the lines, just not in the same way they were originally drawn. Technically all of the information would still be there, but it wouldn't be the same picture anymore.

 

For me, the biggest problem with the new first gens is both the lack of symmetry and the vastly disproportionate emphasis on the text. Where we used to have this:

 

 

Dark blue = Text

Medium blue = Picture

Light blue = Open space

 

we know have this:

 

 

Dark blue = Text

Medium blue = picture

No open space

 

When the point of all the breeding is to end up with something even and balanced, that kind of imbalance undermines the project.

 

Again, if someone can point out the benefit that is so spectacular that it's worth this kind of change to something that people have put a lot of game time and effort into creating, I'd really be glad to hear it. Truly. If there's a way to feel good about this change, I'd love to do so.

[Sycamore]

That's for the people who don't care about lineages. All they'll do is scroll over boxes saying, "Hey hey a colorful dragon" while the people who care about lineages will be the ones who take the time to go to the end and look at the sprite.

Wow, way to dismiss the concerns and playstyle of a huge portion of Dragon Cave's fanbase.

 

Checkers are no longer symmetrical, and even gens are no longer even. If that doesn't affect the aspects of DC that are important to you, that's fine, but don't claim that people with different priorities than you are only interested in the most superficial aspects of their lineages or that they don’t really care. Obviously they do care - they care enough to lobby for the change to be reversed or made optional for an entire month despite getting zero feedback.

 

Besides, if your argument is that people should ‘just zoom in’ if they want to see things, don’t you think it makes a little more sense to keep the old lineage view and let people zoom OUT if they want to see more dragons on the page since that doesn't irreversibly reduce the size of the art after all the spriters worked so hard on it?

 

P.S. - I don't know what mobile platform you’re using, but on my android phone not only are the dragons’ portraits very small, but for whatever reason you can’t scroll left or right in the lineage view or zoom out (although you can, uselessly enough, zoom in). Looking at lineages longer than ~3 gens is literally impossible.

 

EDIT: Slightly more grammar, slightly less vitriol...

Edited August 6, 2013 by Sycamore

[LibbyLishly]

Angel, let us know when you create a thread over in Suggestions, so that we can rush over there and show our support.

 

The longer I live with the new view, the unhappier I am with it. It doesn't fit, it's too small, it's ugly, it messes up the patterns, I'm borderline obsessive-compulsive and, by golly, I will whine about this.

 

I'm not someone who's opposed to change. I love the new AP format, the fact that we have a new release every month, and some of the other little bits and bobs that have been altered recently to improve the Dragon Cave experience. I'm happy, I have fun, and it's a quiet little stress-buster I use sometimes to get past the demands of my job. Are there other things I'd like to see change? Oh, heck yes. There are BSAs we desperately need (something to reverse refusals, anyone?), I really want to see the 24-hour mass drop come back for new releases, and there are plenty of suggestion threads filled with brilliant new ideas.

 

That's why this change utterly befuddles me. I don't recall seeing it suggested, though I easily could have missed it. It became apparent immediately that the majority of users were, to put it gently, less than thrilled with the new look; there's nothing particularly useful about it, begging the question of why this was chosen as an update rather than something that would actually benefit a lot of users; and nobody has a problem with it being an option so long as it's not mandatory.

 

I totally, completely, 100% understand being busy. TJ has a life, and a family, and I don't criticize him for being unable to prioritize certain elements of Dragon Cave over whatever his real-life demands are. However, just a word, a line, dropped through Sock or whoever, just to let us know he's aware and he is working on a fix, would be so vastly appreciated.

 

People are leaving the Cave due to this issue not being addressed. I get the feeling that for many, it's a "that's the last straw" situation. It's time for the Creator to pop his head in and let us know what's up.

[Wiz]

^All what LibbyLishly said. I could not have said it better.

[grammydragon]

I notice TJ has had time to be on the forums lately. Perhaps we just didn't

hear him....Silence can be deafening.

 

No management, no matter how bad, goes without at least having some

idea of what is going on... maybe just not the same idea we have.

 

Perhaps I am just hallucinating, but I keep hearing a strange voice saying,

"Frankly, my players, I don't give a d..."

[prpldrgnfr]

Well said, LibbyLishly, and grammydragon, I couldn't agree more.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

TJ09 Literally the only difference is whitespace.

23:25:42 Charm alo

23:25:46 Master No

23:25:49 TJ09 Yes.

23:25:50 Master The names of the CBs

23:25:53 TJ09 The images are no smaller.

23:25:58 TJ09 The names are no smaller.

23:26:02 TJ09 There's simply less blank space.

23:26:04 Master THey're next to the images rather than under them'

23:26:04 TJ09 Less scrolling

23:26:05 *** Centuri quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

23:26:07 Psyk it looks funny and I don't like it

23:26:10 Psyk stomps foot

23:26:12 TJ09 The lineage is half as tall as it could be.

23:26:22 VampireKetsuki I like it (for what it's worth)

23:26:28 Master I still prefer it with the names under

23:26:33 Eden I like the old lineage view better *shrugs*

23:26:34 fenrir ...

23:26:39 Master It creates an uneven look

23:26:40 fenrir growls in the corner

23:26:51 Xylene is weirded out because it's different.

23:26:57 Xylene That's pretty much the only reason.

23:27:04 Xylene I'll probably get used to it or forget in another 2-5 days.

23:27:07 ADP A lot of people miss the old way.

23:27:07 Moonlie Same as Master. And it wasn't really a problem to anyone.

23:27:09 VampireKetsuki pets the growling fenrir

23:27:09 Psyk actually I don't really care, it's different but whatevs

23:27:18 Master Why not make an option under account settings for lineage views? Compact View vs. Expanded View.

23:27:27 Eden I would have liked to have voted for or against it, tbh.

23:27:29 ADP It's not a checkerboard shape anymore...

23:27:30 fenrir snugs kets and keeps growling

23:27:31 TJ09 Master, why not make an option for everything ever in case someone dislikes it?

23:27:38 TJ09 Master, some people might not like the new release.

23:27:40 ADP 70% poll wise dislike it so far.

23:27:43 TJ09 Let's add a checkbox to hide those dragons.

23:27:52 ADP And lineages are keeping a lot of older players here.

23:27:54 Master Then they don't have to collect them

23:27:55 ADP Just sayin'

23:28:04 TJ09 Master, but they might show up in my lineages.

23:28:07 Master The point is a lot of people complained about the change

23:28:10 TJ09 And then I have to look at the tiles I don't like.

DP http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=152152

23:28:20 *** Rey joined #dc

23:28:24 Master The old lineage wouldn't change

23:28:37 TJ09 Master, that's fine, but you can't solve every single change-aversion problem with settings.

23:29:09 Master I know that

23:29:29 TJ09 There's a better solution here than the old version and the new version.

23:29:41 TJ09 I'm not going to stop trying to find that just because people want the old one.

Edited August 7, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[prpldrgnfr]

Thank you, ADP, that's what I was afraid of. grammydragon called it.

[Nine]

TJ loves using strawman fallacies.

 

"Why not make the lineage view change an option?"

 

"Why not make options for everything ever? I'm not going to give everything ever changed on site an option. You can't solve every change-aversion with settings."

Edited August 7, 2013 by Nine

[Psykotika]

I got

23:29:29 TJ09 There's a better solution here than the old version and the new version.

23:29:41 TJ09 I'm not going to stop trying to find that just because people want the old one.

out of that.

 

Soo... is there any middle ground here?

[TJ09]

I got

23:29:29 TJ09 There's a better solution here than the old version and the new version.

23:29:41 TJ09 I'm not going to stop trying to find that just because people want the old one.

out of that.

 

Soo... is there any middle ground here?

That is the most important part of it. I don't think "middle ground" is the right direction to go, though.

 

Honestly, the current lineage view on a whole simply doesn't meet the goals people have very well. Sure people were "satisfied" with the old version, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks messy (because stretched tables and blank space), is hard to navigate (because of horizontal scrolling to see lower gens), and isn't focused on the right things (people generally seem to view a lineage to view the ancestors, while by definition the most attention is given to the dragon on the very left).

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Maybe this would be the time to make a suggestion thread with new lineage view proposals...?

 

That being said. The policy of "no, the old way is never coming back no matter how much you beg" has been done on DC a few times, and it's never pleasant. I also feel TJ's response was too dismissive, especially after a month of waiting for it and having to go find him in IRC rather than having him post in here.

 

TJ, if you're reading this--I love DC. You've created a really awesome game that was fun when I started and is even more fun now. The neat story adventure events, the monthly releases, BSAs, biomes, and yet more and more inspired ways to collect and interact with new dragons--it's all great, and the fact that the game is free makes it even sweeter.

 

But that being said, making changes like this without talking with us really hurts. The happier the players are, the more you profit, after all, so it would be nice if there was some more communication than a quick chat response after a month of waiting when it comes to new changes to the game, especially ones that affect things that are really, really important to some of the game's oldest and most loyal players. I understand that players here tend to be change allergic, but the fact that a fair number of dedicated players are still unhappy with this after a whole month should warrant a bit more concern on your part than I feel we're getting. You say you're looking for a compromise between old and new; can we talk about it, and perhaps sooner than in another month? I'm happy to hear that you don't think this is the final solution, but I'd like to hear a bit more than just that, especially if we're going to be waiting a while...

Edited August 7, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[skauble]

Honestly, the current lineage view on a whole simply doesn't meet the goals people have very well. Sure people were "satisfied" with the old version, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks messy (because stretched tables and blank space), is hard to navigate (because of horizontal scrolling to see lower gens), and isn't focused on the right things (people generally seem to view a lineage to view the ancestors, while by definition the most attention is given to the dragon on the very left).

I agree that the old view didn't meet the goals people had, and I think a new design is a good thing. I don't think this is about being anti-change, but about what is getting prioritized during the change.

 

What a lot of us are looking for is a change that preserves the look of lineages, their shape and structure. Space is not a random option when you're talking about something that was designed, in part, by using that space as part of construction.

 

This is the result of removing that "blank space":

 

 

 

Those images aren't interchangeable when you're dealing with things that were created using a certain symmetry.

 

Again, I'm all for a better view of lineages. But I don't think that anyone's invested years in this game in the hopes that one day they could see the ancestor on the right without scrolling. Whereas people have heavily invested time and effort in lineage crafting. So while I definitely agree that navigating and reorienting the page for ease of use is great, I don't see why it can't be done in a way that doesn't leave us with something we like (ease of navigation) by destroying something we love (the lineages we created).

[Wiz]

*deletes post*

 

I'm going to wake up properly before I say anything. Need caffeine.

 

out of that.

 

Soo... is there any middle ground here?

That is the most important part of it. I don't think "middle ground" is the right direction to go, though.

 

Honestly, the current lineage view on a whole simply doesn't meet the goals people have very well. Sure people were "satisfied" with the old version, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks messy (because stretched tables and blank space), is hard to navigate (because of horizontal scrolling to see lower gens), and isn't focused on the right things (people generally seem to view a lineage to view the ancestors, while by definition the most attention is given to the dragon on the very left).

 

So what your saying is it's a work in progress? I can live with that. If I know my lineages will look right again eventually I can grit my teeth while it's being worked on.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Wiz

[Amazon_warrior]

So......

 

We waited a month for TJ to tell us he's going to "fix" exponential progression? :|

[whitebaron]

That is the most important part of it. I don't think "middle ground" is the right direction to go, though.

 

Honestly, the current lineage view on a whole simply doesn't meet the goals people have very well. Sure people were "satisfied" with the old version, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks messy (because stretched tables and blank space), is hard to navigate (because of horizontal scrolling to see lower gens), and isn't focused on the right things (people generally seem to view a lineage to view the ancestors, while by definition the most attention is given to the dragon on the very left).

There are three faulty assumptions here:

a) just because you can't get it done better yet, the current solution is better than doing nothing. => It leaves out anyone building on the old solution, without giving them an alternative.

you know all the goals people have with the lineage view. => That's plainly not true, looking at how many people said the form of the boxes (Even sized SQUARES!), or the name and pictures of the cb generation is more important to them than most of the other stuff.

c) that this is only due to change-aversion. => People have given ample reason why they want lineage view to be different, without resorting to base slander or emotions.

 

 

Also, amazon has got it completely right.

there's nothing you can do to fix 8th gen dragons only using HTML, thats a logistical and mathematical impossibility. A Flash/SVG/Plugin based viewer might allow for more flexibility, but this should, again, be optional - and not due to aversion, but to different people using different browsers and technologies.

[Whitekeaton]

Seeing that conversation, seeing TJ's attitude towards his players, is prettymuch the last straw for me. I've tried to be civil in my comments, help out with suggestions for areas that I know could be improved with just a little input, I've tried to contribute meaningfully where I can on the forums, but it's obvious now that there's no point bothering. I might be around for new releases and to breed holiday eggs, but I don't think I'll be a regular here anymore. As much as I enjoy playing this game, I can't support someone with such little respect for his players.

[FortyTwo]

I agree that the old view didn't meet the goals people had, and I think a new design is a good thing.  I don't think this is about being anti-change, but about what is getting prioritized during the change.

 

What a lot of us are looking for is a change that preserves the look of lineages, their shape and structure.  Space is not a random option when you're talking about something that was designed, in part, by using that space as part of construction.

 

This is the result of removing that "blank space":

 

 

 

Those images aren't interchangeable when you're dealing with things that were created using a certain symmetry.

 

Again, I'm all for a better view of lineages.  But I don't think that anyone's invested years in this game in the hopes that one day they could see the ancestor on the right without scrolling.  Whereas people have heavily invested time and effort in lineage crafting.  So while I definitely agree that navigating and reorienting the page for ease of use is great, I don't see why it can't be done in a way that doesn't leave us with something we like (ease of navigation) by destroying something we love (the lineages we created).

I wish there was a like button for every comment you say. :c

 

TJ: With these things, you can't just push your priorities over your userbase.

 

Sure people were "satisfied" with the old version, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks messy (because stretched tables and blank space), is hard to navigate (because of horizontal scrolling to see lower gens), and isn't focused on the right things (people generally seem to view a lineage to view the ancestors, while by definition the most attention is given to the dragon on the very left).

 

And the fact remains that again, the majority of the userbase OPPOSES this. People are quitting because of this, I think that's enough to say it's a big enough problem that you can't just say "it's better from this and this standpoint". The thing is, the previous view WORKED. And people developed their lineages around that view, so when you change it, that messes up what they designed. And it can be months/years of work people have put into those. Just suddenly pushed aside without any communication beforehand.

 

While I don't oppose change, I think you have to be smart about it.

Edited August 7, 2013 by FortyTwo

[Wiz]

So not having much knowledge of coding I'm obviously missing a point in Amazon's comment?

[FortyTwo]

So not having much knowledge of coding I'm obviously missing a point in Amazon's comment?

Amazon is just using exponential progression as a term for that, the more generations an even gen lineage is, the more space it takes up height-wise.

 

Correct me if I misunderstood, Amazon.

[Amazon_warrior]

Amazon is just using exponential progression as a term for that, the more generations an even gen lineage is, the more space it takes up height-wise.

 

Correct me if I misunderstood, Amazon.

Sort of. It's a mathematical expression: Exponential growth wiki page.

 

Essentially, the number of dragons in any generation of an even-gen lineage is half the number in the previous generation or double the number in the following generation. An even-gen lineage is thus a perfect example of exponential growth (or decay, depends on which direction you're looking at it from). And thus increasing from, say, 5 generations to 6 means you need double the height to display the extra dragons.

[LibbyLishly]

Honestly, the current lineage view on a whole simply doesn't meet the goals people have very well. Sure people were "satisfied" with the old version, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks messy (because stretched tables and blank space), is hard to navigate (because of horizontal scrolling to see lower gens), and isn't focused on the right things (people generally seem to view a lineage to view the ancestors, while by definition the most attention is given to the dragon on the very left).

1. THANK YOU, TJ, for finally letting us know what's going on. It helps to know that this is something you're still working on and that you are now aware of our concerns.

 

2. I hope that you've been able to spend enough time reviewing our comments to understand that, this time, it's not about being adverse to change. I've seen plenty of forum drama where that's exactly what it was, but in this situation, it's about patterns, about something throwing off things that we've been working towards.

 

My cup of coffee and I are quietly trying to deal with something new, though. There's a certain attitude that shows in the chat ADP posted that, while I understand where it comes from (I certainly wouldn't want to run a site where half the userbase got up in arms every time something new happened), still wounds those of us who actually have a reasoned argument. Reading that chat, I've not felt so looked down upon for a very long time, even if nothing was personally pointing to me. I certainly wouldn't donate to someone who I thought just reacted with sarcasm and vitriol to people asking for a change - or the reversal of a change - to be considered. My initial impulse was very similar to Whitekeaton's, and I don't blame him in the least for throwing in the towel. I'm not ready to leave yet (though I feel like I'd simply get a 'good riddance' even if I did), because this game is bigger to me than the creator's attitude toward his players. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited August 8, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[grammydragon]

Thanks ADP for the great effort and I hope something good will come

from it all.

 

(edited)

 

I just wonder "who" is the userbase that He has decided is not being

served, or is it really all about his having to look at tiles he didn't like?

 

That hallucinating voice keeps returning... only louder...

Edited August 11, 2013 by grammydragon