Lineage view change

[Marrionetta]

Seeing that conversation, seeing TJ's attitude towards his players, is prettymuch the last straw for me. I've tried to be civil in my comments, help out with suggestions for areas that I know could be improved with just a little input, I've tried to contribute meaningfully where I can on the forums, but it's obvious now that there's no point bothering. I might be around for new releases and to breed holiday eggs, but I don't think I'll be a regular here anymore. As much as I enjoy playing this game, I can't support someone with such little respect for his players.

I hate to be this person, but the entire summation of TJ's post is that he is trying to improve the system for the benefit of the end user. Just because he doesn't do exactly what you want him to doesn't mean he's disrespecting anyone.

 

I think an overhaul is a good idea, I'd even be in favor of a 90 degree flip and a more tree like structure, and thumbnails of just the head on the dragon of the full size pixel art and the code displaying under the name, and ALL sorts of changes.

 

New things. What TJ does is give us new things as gifts and as a personal challenge to solve practical problems. Expect nothing more or less of him, and in the future, don't hurl accusations at him.

 

Happy winds, friend.

[TheAkatsuki]

I'm fairly new to DC, and everyone seems to prefer the old way of viewing line-ages, but I've never seen one those.

Can anyone show me what they used to look like?

[Marrionetta]

From what I get, the only reason the players are averse to change is *because* of the way they're done, with no warning, chance for input or opinions, and the dismissive attitude when we protest. If, as you suggested skauble, some heads up were provided, I think us players wouldn't dislike change nearly so much.

 

I play another, similar, free adoptables game, and the responsiveness of that game's admin team is *amazing*.

The mistake everyone is making here is believing, for some weird reason, that they're entitled to creative input on DC. If TJ stopped to take a census of what every user thought of every change he made, however minute, one, there'd be no solid opinion and two, nothing would ever be implemented.

 

However, you know the forum usage survey? The entire requests section? The artist section (for those of us who have access), the weird RP organization on the forums, the extensions for various outtages and the time credit toward hatchlings and eggs... all these things he does expressly because of user input. Every last one.

 

This is not your sandbox. It hurts to hear that but the attitudes in this thread are outrageous.

[Chaos Rider]

I'm fairly new to DC, and everyone seems to prefer the old way of viewing line-ages, but I've never seen one those.

Can anyone show me what they used to look like?

I don't have any really big checkers but they used to look like this with the names of the CB dragons below the pictures

http://dragcave.net/lineage/du4Qg

 

compare that with how they currently

http://dragcave.net/lineage/3VjR0

 

For checkers the change affects 5th gen and above

[prpldrgnfr]

The mistake everyone is making here is believing, for some weird reason, that they're entitled to creative input on DC.  If TJ stopped to take a census of what every user thought of every change he made, however minute, one, there'd be no solid opinion and two, nothing would ever be implemented.

 

However, you know the forum usage survey?  The entire requests section?  The artist section (for those of us who have access), the weird RP organization on the forums, the extensions for various outtages and the time credit toward hatchlings and eggs... all these things he does expressly because of user input.  Every last one.

 

This is not your sandbox.  It hurts to hear that but the attitudes in this thread are outrageous.

When a change affects mine, and many others' play style,yes, I *do* think we should have a chance to offer input/ideas. Some may see him as a god, but he can't think of everything and it's quite possible that maybe one of the players has a *brilliant* idea to make the lineages look their best. Also, he *has* done a lot for the players, but as you said that was because of player input.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Marionetta... He might be working to improve the game, in his opinion, but he's doing so without consulting his users and, even worse, without much caring about their concerns. Indeed, his behavior even seems dismissive... he's acting as if we're children whose wants he understands better than ourselves, saying we want certain things when we've insisted repeatedly we were just fine with how things were, and implementing a silly cat lineage view rather than having more than a three minute conversation with us.

 

No, he doesn't have to do every single thing we want, but the point is he just made a change to something people have been using four plus years, something that's kept many older players here loyal for years, for no good reason other than that he thinks we'd like it more. Even when we've made it clear for a month that many of us don't. Even when, as someone else pointed out, we've been using this system for years and built our lineages specifically to look nice within the current system.

 

If half the sprites were suddenly replaced despite user's wishes just because, in TJ's opinion, the old weren't good enough for the game, wouldn't that bother you? Well, that's what it feels like has just been done to us. I long ago collected all the ordinary sprites, so lineages have been the new pretty thing to collect, and now almost all of them look unexpectedly different, for no great reason I can see. From your lack of concern (and your suggestion that only heads be shown in lineages, which would TRULY shatter my lineages to pieces *shudders*), I get the impression that you don't much care about lineages yourself. I could certainly be wrong, but that's what I'm feeling. Whereas a ton of the people who have commented here and been upset do extensive lineage work. I feel their concerns are of greater importance here.

 

You're right that TJ has done many awesome things for us. The AP changes, BSAs, biomes, more frequent releases, and those are just my favorites. But even then, having him just go and unexpectedly make a change to the game that affects something so important to so many of the most active players--without a word of response for a month--without seeming to have had any reason for it other than that he wanted a change himself--really sucks. Yes it's a free game and it's his game and all that jazz, but he HAS stated he wants to make a living off DC, and if he wants to do that he to appeal to the customers. And I know I've said this fifty times now, but some of the 'customers' I see most often around here are in this thread feeling very upset. Upset people stop making donations and might even start blocking ads. So I just fail to see how the current situation is good for anyone.

Edited August 9, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[whitebaron]

@Natayah: That's why businesses have test-servers, internal systems where they work out the kinks. If its a work in progress that is known to be faulty, no use to placing it in production!

 

@Marri: I need to pull out my bullwhip on that post. Since that's not PG-13, lets discuss on irc.

Besides: If that's not derogatory, I don't know what is.

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=7575756

[cfmtfm]

Okay I've been lurking around here but I am going to add my 1 cent because it's summer and I'm tired and I can't form coherent sentences.

 

I completely agree with Marri. (Not to mention the fun Ask-A-Mod section. :3) Some of the reactions are unbelievable. The new view doesn't even change half the lineages. It doesn't change names, images, generations, plans, whatever. TJ has merely changed the position. Is it really that bad? I would actually like an explanation from someone who is against the new lineage view as to why exactly they do not like it.

 

I don't want to hear about TJ's behaviour; he is not a robot that has perfect attitudes all the time. I'm not a total TJ fangirl and in no way am I trying to support everything he does (I don't actually like the monthly releases or the AP changes IMHO). I don't want to hear about sprite changes either (like the Silver Sprite updating threads).

 

It is a simple change that has just moved two things and changed the space. I'm going to be blunt: I think some of you are overreacting.

 

Edited because some of my words were uncalled for. :< I can get very defensive about things.

Edited August 9, 2013 by cfmtfm

[prpldrgnfr]

I would actually like an explanation from someone who is against the new lineage view as to why exactly they do not like it. No beating around the bush.

I don't like it because it looks like two different lineage styles got mixed together, one with a picture on top of the name and another one that has the picture to the left of the name. Also, the blank space was *part* of the design. Negative space is just as important as positive space.

 

I would like to see what putting the name to the left of *all* the pictures, using two lines if needed (is that word wrap?), would look like, but I don't have the ability to do a mock up.

[cfmtfm]

I don't like it because it looks like two different lineage styles got mixed together, one with a picture on top of the name and another one that has the picture to the left of the name. Also, the blank space was *part* of the design. Negative space is just as important as positive space.

 

I would like to see what putting the name to the left of *all* the pictures, using two lines if needed (is that word wrap?), would look like, but I don't have the ability to do a mock up.

Thank you.

 

So if this is the reason (or if this is one of the many simple ones), why are people posting such harsh accusations and words, when in reality it's just because you don't like it? If you don't like x breed, you don't go complaining to the spriter at how much you hate it and compare it to so many other things. Sure, you won't ask TJ to have an option to turn it on or off, but you might feel so passionate about your dislikes that you ask the spriter to completely revamp it.

 

ADP, in my point of view, no lineage projects have been ruined. I fail to see how. The names and images are still exactly the same, just in a different place. The length of the page has been shortened - great, no more having to scroll up and down (especially with lyric lineages).

[prpldrgnfr]

You're welcome, cfmtfm.

[whitebaron]

A visual example.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/it2Ac 4g

http://dragcave.net/lineage/3T49Q 5g

http://dragcave.net/lineage/CD1l6 6g

http://dragcave.net/lineage/75uZ3 7g

http://dragcave.net/lineage/8nJY2 8g

...

http://dragcave.net/lineage/N2TtK 11g

http://dragcave.net/lineage/mZMdo - grats hydrargyrum, you made it to 12g.

 

They do look different to each other. Even though its the same lineage.and the reason why people post accusations have nothing to do with our grief per se - but with the amount, tone and the general "how" this was dealt with. (see the irc log or tjs posts, they cry to me: "shut up sillies, its not your page, I'll do only what I want to do" ) and honestly, thats no way to treat anyone. Would I act like that, my warn meter would be at critical value right now.

Edited August 9, 2013 by whitebaron

[LibbyLishly]

Thank you.

 

So if this is the reason (or if this is one of the many simple ones), why are people posting such harsh accusations and words, when in reality it's just because you don't like it? If you don't like x breed, you don't go complaining to the spriter at how much you hate it and compare it to so many other things. Sure, you won't ask TJ to have an option to turn it on or off, but you might feel so passionate about your dislikes that you ask the spriter to completely revamp it.

 

ADP, in my point of view, no lineage projects have been ruined. I fail to see how. The names and images are still exactly the same, just in a different place. The length of the page has been shortened - great, no more having to scroll up and down (especially with lyric lineages).

cfmtfm, I totally understand your desire for everyone to calm down. This issue has become incredibly heated, and yes, many people have a tendency to overreact. However, if you go back and read the entire thread, you may find answers to all your questions.

 

We have detailed at length the things that bother us about the lineage view change. We have explained very carefully how this is not about being adverse to change, but instead being opposed to this particular change. However, that is not the ultimate issue. The bigger problem is the complete lack of civil communication from TJ on the topic - part of a pattern that is becoming a growing problem here on DC.

 

Some people are quite happy with the change. That's totally fine! There will never be a unanimous opinion shared on any topic. But for those of us who aren't, and we do seem to be in the majority, we just want the option of having the old lineage view - if not a complete change back. We are not unreasonable on this point. We just want our patterns displayed the way we created them to be displayed.

 

If this were just a free game that was his own little plaything (which it is, in part), none of us would have the right to say boo about his changes. But it's more than that. He asks for donations, which we have the right to withhold if his decisions or his attitude displeases us. When you ask for donations, you're essentially selling a product, and it's important to keep your 'customers' (in this case, the players) happy - and the customers have a right to stand up and object if they see things that are wrong. And when the seller shows a condescending, disrespectful attitude toward his customers, those customers have the right to speak up, withhold their money, and shop elsewhere.

 

For my part, I will now be using an ad blocker and I will not be donating until I see a much more respectful attitude displayed toward the people off of whom TJ is making money.

 

So yes - if this were just about the view change, the kind of hurt and anger you see reflected in this thread wouldn't make much sense. But this is part of a much bigger picture in Dragon Cave, one that could very easily sink the game.

Edited August 9, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[skauble]

The mistake everyone is making here is believing, for some weird reason, that they're entitled to creative input on DC.  If TJ stopped to take a census of what every user thought of every change he made, however minute, one, there'd be no solid opinion and two, nothing would ever be implemented.

 

However, you know the forum usage survey?  The entire requests section?  The artist section (for those of us who have access), the weird RP organization on the forums, the extensions for various outtages and the time credit toward hatchlings and eggs... all these things he does expressly because of user input.  Every last one.

 

This is not your sandbox.  It hurts to hear that but the attitudes in this thread are outrageous.

I totally get that people want to jump in here and defend TJ. Seriously, I do. But this is not going to get better, it's going to get worse. Because, right now, there's enough of us here who remember when the goals of the site were very nebulous to most of us. There was always speculation about things like would the site close when TJ went to college or would he maybe sell it to someone. To those of us who remember when the site just seemed like a really clever guy's online game it's easier to default back to the "this is a gift to the players" mentality.

 

But DC, these days, is a business. It's firming up it's financial relationships with customers via direct transactions for subscriptions and it's been said that there's an intention to generate enough of a profit to a least get to a point where TJ can work on the site full time.

 

From here on out, we're going to have less and less people join who will have the "gift" mentality, because they're going to see this site as a business - which it is. And those people will have the same expectations that they have with other businesses.

 

Reading this thread, the one thing we can all agree upon is that things have reached an unpleasant place. The important question to ask is how do we not end up here all over again.

 

Certainly, scolding players until the become a nicer user base is one, possibly very satisfying, option. But most businesses find that it's much, much easier to put out the fire when it's a spark instead of dealing with an inferno, even when they find their customers kind of annoying. And I get that there's this idea of "How dare TJ be expected to be the one to do that when he's doing this wonderful stuff for you", but he's not. Because, yes, he's doing a lot of great things, but he's doing them because he wants to have a successful business.

 

A whole lot of this could have been avoided with a little communication early on. I'm not saying he needed to get everyone's opinion or tell people what all he was going to try, but just touching base and letting players know the he understands their concerns would have gone a long way to cutting this off before the breaking point.

 

And maybe that's not fair. Maybe people think that TJ shouldn't have to be the one to do that instead of players having to be the one to roll with things, but that's why we don't call it fair - we call it a smart business move.

 

I don't know how the lineage page issue will work itself out, but this has gone beyond that and revealed some problems we'd be really wise to deal with now.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

ADP, in my point of view, no lineage projects have been ruined. I fail to see how. The names and images are still exactly the same, just in a different place. The length of the page has been shortened - great, no more having to scroll up and down (especially with lyric lineages).

I make checkerboard lineages so that they look like uniform checkerboards. As things are right now, they look like checkerboards with tabs stapled on the end. Additionally, a lot of the most important dragons in lineages are found in the CB generation (Spriter's Alts, Old Pinks, CB Prizes, Thuweds, etc etc). Before, they were able to command as much attention, if not more, than every other dragon in the lineage--but now they're so tightly stacked together that it's distracting and hard to single them out.

 

It's not the end of the world, no. I will even admit that in a few lineages it looks rather nice. But in general it's a change that I think makes lineages look uglier, punishes those people who put the most work into the game, and was all done with a very poor response from TJ. A few days ago, while I was still sad about the change, I was still hoping TJ was considering changing it back. But then running into him in chat and hearing 1) that he seems to think he knows what we want better than we do and 2) that our concerns are as trivial as someone wanting to hide the image of a new dragon is rather offputting.

Edited August 9, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cfmtfm]

[snip]

Thanks for your civil and calm reply, as well as explaining various things.

 

I have been lurking and reading the thread the whole way through. What started off as a general, calm discussion gradually turned into a thread for ranting and accusations. I don't think I mentioned explicitly that any/all of you were against any change whatsoever (although if I sounded like I did, I had no intentions of it - I wrote both my posts trying to ultimately stay with this topic and not sound like "oh gosh deja vu of every change").

 

I do agree (in part) with TJ's lack of communication (or, at least, lack of *respectful* communication). I understand now why some are so angry; I thought the main 'source' of anger came more from the change rather than TJ (because everyone was posting here rather than in feedback threads in the Suggestions & Requests forum).

 

I'm going to draw back a little and not get into long posts otherwise I'll soon find that I'm contradicting myself and constantly switching sides. X3

[whitebaron]

I don't know how the lineage page issue will work itself out, but this has gone beyond that and revealed some problems we'd be really wise to deal with now.

There is no "we" in this.

TJ chooses site policy, and once upon a time he chose it to be rather community-oriented. If he chooses to change that, I'd prefer it to be a plain open change, and not so much a derogatory remark here, a bad joke there, some non-responsiveness somewhere else.

 

Some fanpage owners like ext3h answer more actual questions about DC than TJ himself... Not a good development if you ask me.

[tjekan]

To be honest, cfmtfm, I don't even mind the lineage change that much. Given my druthers, I do prefer the old lineage view, because it is more symmetrical and because it is the setup I created my lineages for in the first place, so it's somewhat annoying when that is suddenly changed. In a game where you invite people to spend years creating artistic lineages, it's understandably aggravating when you're 90% of the way to a goal and then the image you've been working on changes for no particular reason. But to me personally, it's not that big a deal. I could get used to the new view. It's not that bad. It doesn't look that different. I can still see symmetry in it.

 

The part that really frustrates me is TJ's refusal to even consider personalized view options. For the love of the Internet, why NOT? This is an online game based on the premise that users will feel ownership over their own little cave of dragons. We can name them, describe them, arrange them the way we want, and breed them into little patterns. We can even change the color of our own cave display. So what would be so horrible about giving users a choice between lineage display options? Right now we could have a choice between Compact View (the current version), Expanded View (the original version), and Code View (perfectly symmetrical with codes instead of names.) If TJ ever implements left->right or top-down lineage views, they could simply be added to the list of choices.

 

Offering new choices is better than implementing random changes because choices increase the pool of satisfied customers rather than decrease it, and prevent our friends and trading partners from getting fed up and leaving.

[Chaos Rider]

I'm against the change but what I don't get is why messy inbred dragons like this keep the old style when the new look wouldn't ruin any symmetry or anything since it's already a mess.

 

I was planning on creating a few even gens once I'd finished sprite collecting but now with the symmetry on this AP find being ruined I'm not sure that I want to anymore

[Marrionetta]

I'm against the change but what I don't get is why messy inbred dragons like this keep the old style when the new look wouldn't ruin any symmetry or anything since it's already a mess.

 

I was planning on creating a few even gens once I'd finished sprite collecting but now with the symmetry on this AP find being ruined I'm not sure that I want to anymore

I literally do not see a single thing wrong with that lineage. Can you please explain how it is ruined?

[annageckos]

I literally do not see a single thing wrong with that lineage. Can you please explain how it is ruined?

IMO it is no longer even. It not consistent. But in the end it doesn't matter if some don't care how it looks/likes it/doesn't see it as ruined. Others do, and people have put a lot of work into some of these lineages, and now they are not what they had made. I hate the new lineage view, that is my opinion and I'm not wrong. But you may like it, and that is your opinion and again is not wrong. Please don't take what I am saying personally. I am trying to explain (poorly) how I feel. I can't always express myself right.

[tjekan]

I literally do not see a single thing wrong with that lineage. Can you please explain how it is ruined?

The symmetry has been disturbed because now some of the dragons have their names placed beneath their pictures whereas others have their names placed off to the right side instead.

 

As I said, I don't really mind this personally, but it's easy to understand how other people really, *really* prefer all the dragons in a lineage to have the identical image/name pattern. Would it really hurt anything to give them the option to continue arranging their lineages in the same way?

[skauble]

I literally do not see a single thing wrong with that lineage.  Can you please explain how it is ruined?

The way that it's ruined, for some, is that it's not what they originally made. And that's a very valid complaint.

 

In this game, it's set up so that if you do X, then you can achieve Y. And Y is the fruit of a player's labor. The problem here is that people had already achieved Y or invested a great deal of time in the process of doing so. In this case, people hunted for dragons, spent large chunks of time breeding, created trade networks, all to produce specific lineages that they had designed. And those designs were often completely dependent on how they were structured on the lineage page.

 

When TJ makes a change to the biomes or to the AP, he changes X. He alters how we pursue our goals. But when he changes things like the lineage view, he changes Y. He changes the accomplishment, the reward for the time and effort invested. Those are two very different things.

 

And yes, you can say that the site doesn't guarantee that Y will never change. In fact, you can say that all the way to the place that is the opposite of the bank. Because if what's being conveyed here is that there is nothing in this game that a player can reasonably depend on, then they begin to question whether they want to continue to invest their time and effort.

 

And I want to stress that that is a completely logical thing to do. If a player is in the game to build specific lineages and those are no longer a predictable outcome, then it's reasonable to take a step back and contemplate whether it's worth it to take the gamble that they'll come out in a way that they find pleasing after every change. The same holds true with the collection aspect of the game.

 

And it's because of the very fact that it is understandable that people might not want to continue a process that doesn't have a predictable outcome, that those changes should have a compelling reason - generally one where the benefits outweigh the costs. And there are costs to this.

 

One of the smartest things I think that TJ has done with the site is the subscriptions. Now, I don't know what the difference is between what they cost and the average profit made per person via ads, but I do know that the subscriptions create a steady income no matter how a player's game time fluctuates, and the fact that they can be set up as automatic payments makes them less vulnerable to things like minor personal money crunches, game frustrations, and general forgetfulness. I also know that some of the people who pay for the subscription had ads turned off before. Which means that A. anything from them is 100% more than was coming in before, and B. if they cancel that income goes back to 0.

 

So the fact that people are willing to cancel their subscriptions over this is not an insignificant thing, because this is not only about lineages, but about a larger sense of some kind of game stability. And maybe there's a certain amount of change aversion in that, but it's not of an unreasonable sort.

 

Tjekan is 100% correct that this can be easily addressed with viewing options. It's win/win for everyone because it allows TJ to make all of the changes that he feels improves function (which he can set as the default) while still preserving the goals people have worked hard to achieve. And management is certainly entitled to make this a principled matter about showing people that change is the inevitable doorway to innovation and so it must be accepted, but the question is this - is this really a hill to die on?

Edited August 10, 2013 by skauble

[Shadlok]

A SUGGESTION THREAD HAS BEEN BORN!

 

Thank you for your attention :3

(It was the easiest way to make my post noticeable. Sorry for the caps and big red letters. I just wanted to make sure nobody skipped past this post. ^^

[Kelkelen]

*snip*

*hugs skauble* THANK you. You explained it all so calmly and eloquently.

 

I had the same issue with certain sprite changes in the past that I do now with the lineage view change. That is, if this is:

 

a ) A collectible game

and

b ) People can pay to play it,

 

then it seems to me that one should be able to keep the items that one collects, unaltered. As an extension of that idea, if someone invests their time, effort, and creativity to create lineages *with* the items they have collected, their creations with their "game pieces" that they have collected should not be alterable from outside.

 

I'm not averse to change. Changes in the biomes, AP, drop times, user options, etc. are reasonable, and whether or not I personally favor them, they seem fine by me; similar to when an existing game upgrades. Those are changes in *function,* not in the items which one has chosen to collect.

 

But it is a very different change when, for instance, you liked a particular sprite, and invested hours and hours in hunting for it and creating lineages around it based on its shape and coloration, and then it is changed -- not "from this time forward," but retroactively, so that all of your lineages are altered, and the sprite that you loved enough to collect 50+ of it is just *gone.*

 

Likewise, if you invested time in creating lineage patterns based on the forms they took in the game, and then the lineage pattern view is altered permanently, your creations are just *gone.* Also, it can easily feel as though your involvement is not respected or desired, despite the fact that you've played the game, earned money for the creator, participated in the community (possibly started or been a key commenter in an Even-Gens thread, or gifted gorgeously-lineaged eggs), and invested hours of your time.

 

In a tangible collectible game, such as the "Magic: The Gathering" card game, for example, the art absolutely changes from edition to edition. BUT, it isn't as though the art changes retroactively -- people who loved a 2nd edition card and don't love the art on the 3rd edition still get to keep the 2nd edition ones that they purchased or traded for originally.

 

So, I *do* think it's perfectly reasonable (and *not* difficult to code for) if we are simply given the option to see our lineages as we originally created them.

 

In fact, I can't think of any sensible reason *not* to give us that option, unless it's solely a show of force, to "teach the players a lesson" that "we can't always get what we want" and that "TJ will do what TJ will do and how dare we try to change him?," so "suck it up and be happy with what you get!"

 

Which, to me, is abusive, bullying behaviour, and I'm really not sure how I feel about playing a game whose creator is so quick to blow off the interests and emotions of his players -- and be actively hurtful, in the bargain. I am not sure what he conceives of as "gentlemanly behaviour," but this most certainly is not it.

 

TJ has merely changed the position. Is it really that bad? I would actually like an explanation from someone who is against the new lineage view as to why exactly they do not like it.

 

Throughout the thread, if you read back, there are several nice, calm, clear explanations in here about why people are not happy with the view itself. Back on page 21, skauble made a few posts with little blue mock-ups to demonstrate the visual difference, if you are curious. :-) Also, a few people have posted links to "before" and "after" screen captures, which I think best show the difference.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Kelkelen