Allow Alts/Hybrids to be CB

[NotBambi]

My problem with this is that it would turn hybrids and alts into "those ultra rare CB dragons with quirky alternate ways to get bred forms".

Actually, as someone that would LOVE to have more rares in the biomes, instead of only the usual two, this is quite a good reason to support the suggestion.

Edited April 8, 2016 by NotBambi

[noxlyx]

My problem with this is that it would turn hybrids and alts into "those ultra rare CB dragons with quirky alternate ways to get bred forms". The simple fact that they're CB and we're all hung up on CBness will completely blow away what was supposed to be their distinguishing characteristic, the fact that they have a unique way of obtaining them. Making the CB form even rarer than golds won't change that view shift, it will just give the average user yet another unobtainable dragon to yearn for, because if it's available as CB collecting the bred forms just isn't good enough.

But the thing is, collecting from bred forms is already not good enough - for hybrids at least.

 

I can see this argument being a thing for alts - because alts are pretty rare and I've seen them around trading posts and what not going for some decent trades.

 

However, with hybrids are a whole different field. Hybrids are not worth anything trade-wise and are already inherently not as valuable. They're great for hoarders who love these hybrids to pieces. For collectors, however, they're not exactly that hard to obtain. You have two super common dragons mate and you have a pretty decent chance at getting that hybrid after several tries. And then for lineage builders, they're a super vague nightmare. I'm not saying it's not possible to make nice lineages out of hybrids - I have a Soulpeace that has a lineage that I absolutely love. But I am saying that as a lineage builder, I'd like to be able to build my lineages without having awkward parents at the base.

 

As for bred alts, I can't see having them be as rare as metals affecting trade too terribly. If it does, the notch can still be taken down to Copper or Blusang status - because bred alts are already super difficult to get. At least, I'm assuming they're super difficult to get because I've had friends who have been trying forever to get an alt and it just hasn't happened to them yet.

 

But I can definitely see the argument for alts not needing to being CB.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I thought I would add that several hybrid species right now share their egg description with other dragons already in-cave. Particular, I was looking at Soulpeace dragons that share their description with Silver dragons. I can only image how furiously frustrating it might be for someone trying to hunt down Silvers only to get Soulpeaces...

 

Just a thought

I was thinking about this, too, but if they were noticeably rare than it probably wouldn't be too crippling of a blow. You could in all likelihood simply swap with someone for a silver, or perhaps even something better.

 

THAT BEING SAID... Perhaps a slight change could be made to their egg description if they were released in-cave, probably something very minor like "This egg gives off a dazzling / lovely / wonderful / insert other positive word here glow." (As a semi-related side, I've always found the shared egg descriptions thing annoying, because realistically, we'd be LOOKING at the eggs and see that they're very different, so forcing us to have to guess at what we're getting by making the descriptions the same is rather... silly. Fun for some, I'm sure, but I usually avoid them because I don't want to get egglocked if it's not what I want >___<)

[Yukino]

For me personally, if they're going to be a rare (even at the copper level), I would rather not see them be CB. I like being able to readily get them now and the only reason I'd want CBs is to breed lineages without the "awkward" parents. Make them rares and there's just no point. As was pointed out above, for people who have slow internet connections or limited time, this will just end up being another dragon of which the majority of them will be caught and traded among the few minority. We don't all have CB golds, silvers, 2nd gen. tinsels/hollies, etc. to trade or a network to obtain gifts from. >.>

 

[schenanigans]

For me personally, if they're going to be a rare (even at the copper level), I would rather not see them be CB. I like being able to readily get them now and the only reason I'd want CBs is to breed lineages without the "awkward" parents. Make them rares and there's just no point. As was pointed out above, for people who have slow internet connections or limited time, this will just end up being another dragon of which the majority of them will be caught and traded among the few minority. We don't all have CB golds, silvers, 2nd gen. tinsels/hollies, etc. to trade or a network to obtain gifts from. >.>

So you'd rather have them not available at all to anybody because you yourself would have trouble finding them? O.o I'd struggle bus hard to get them myself (read: probably not get CB Hybrids for quite a while) - I only have a CB pair of Silvers that are only now a year old and one CB Gold (that was very kindly gifted recently). Even if you don't own a CB Gold/Silver, there are so many gorgeous lineages that can be made - 2nd Gens are gifted left and right and they're not terribly difficult to get in trade, either.

 

So yes, as a collector, more CB Rares would be frustrating, especially if they are on par with Golds & Silvers. But as a breeder, the only Hybrid/Alt lineages I personally like to deal with actually include the already existing CB Hybrids & Alts, nothing else. If we don't get Hybrids and/or Alts as CB Rares, then there will be some other dragon that takes that place.

 

Either way, they would still be readily available via breeding too - they aren't going to just disappear from that method. They'll just be made available as CBs as well. Icing on the cake. Making them COMMONS would be no point.

[NotBambi]

We don't all have CB golds, silvers, 2nd gen. tinsels/hollies, etc. to trade or a network to obtain gifts from. >.>

Often people do not need a network to obtain gifts from. There is casual gifting. If your point is "I can't catch them, so nobody should", that ends damaging everybody, yourself included.

[Ruby Eyes]

Just a few pre-tea thoughts:

 

Until last week, Almandines were extremely hard to catch in the cave, but when breeding them, they bred and still breed like rabbits. Clearly, making something annoyingly rare in the cave does not make it equally rare when breeding, if that's a concern.

 

I definitely don't have a network at all, and I got my very first CB Gold gifted by a lovely player whose name I had never seen before, same with my very first CB Silver. Just two anecdotes, sure, but sometimes, a little friendly forum activity (and patience) is all you need to get lucky.

 

And finally, just a sample of what checkered lineages with a CB hybrid could look like:

https://dragcave.net/lineage/hpbE1

It's inbred, of course, for lack of other CB Hellhorses. Just don't look at the names if that bothers you.

[bluesonic1]

Until last week, Almandines were extremely hard to catch in the cave, but when breeding them, they bred and still breed like rabbits. Clearly, making something annoyingly rare in the cave does not make it equally rare when breeding, if that's a concern.

Just popping in to correct on this one- someone I think either in help or suggestions posted a thread asking that Alms and Spes varieties not be so crazy rare and if TJ could change their ratios. TJ answered on the thread and it turns out the ratios for all 3 variants are exactly the same. It's not that Almandine's are annoyingly rare, lots of people are just grabbing them fast i.e. high demand for CB. If it actually was rare, like Silver and Gold, then breeding them would be difficult too (which is what we see with Silvers and Golds).

 

When considering rarity, you have to consider that ratios themselves are actually just half the story. The other half is the demand placed on the dragon itself. If hybrids get released as CBs and their ratios get changes to "rare" levels, breeding them will also become more difficult as a result. If the ratio levels are kept the same, then there will be more than what people (apparently) want to see in the cave, which will either result in them losing value or suddenly gaining high demand for CB versions and seeing a situation that we currently have with the varieties of Pyralspites.

Edited April 8, 2016 by bluesonic1

[pederino]

@olympe: If you know genetics, then you know how complex it is and how futile it is for us or anyone else to try use it as an argument for or against this idea regarding a fantasy game...

 

@pederino: What you call hindering gameplay, others call unique gameplay ^__^

 

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I thought I would add that several hybrid species right now share their egg description with other dragons already in-cave. Particular, I was looking at Soulpeace dragons that share their description with Silver dragons. I can only image how furiously frustrating it might be for someone trying to hunt down Silvers only to get Soulpeaces...

 

Just a thought

Actually, thats not gameplay, thats a feature -functions and elements of the game / system-, and features can hinder gameplay -how you play- for good, bad or no reason at all. Features can also improve gameplay (the breeding when introduced, was a feature that expanded and improved gameplay).

 

Also, if hybrids and bred alts are going almost as rare as metals, maybe as rare, I dont think nobody would care if they get the wrong, unless of course they really wanted that other dragon (like pinks and flamingoes in the coast biome)

[Ruby Eyes]

Just popping in to correct on this one- someone I think either in help or suggestions posted a thread asking that Alms and Spes varieties not be so crazy rare and if TJ could change their ratios. TJ answered on the thread and it turns out the ratios for all 3 variants are exactly the same. It's not that Almandine's are annoyingly rare, lots of people are just grabbing them fast i.e. high demand for CB. If it actually was rare, like Silver and Gold, then breeding them would be difficult too (which is what we see with Silvers and Golds).

Well, so YOU say, and so TJ says. Personally, I'm rather surprised how ZERO Almandines had been offered in the various trade threads before that incident, and how MANY Almandines are there now. My conclusion is that he did change something behind the scenes, whatever it was. Try to convince me otherwise if you happen to have been physically near him and observing him.

That's offtopic now though.

 

As for hybrid breeding: People *already* bred Golds and Silvers from Lunar Heralds while I was still trying to get a frigging Hellhorse from a Lunar Herald. There may be ratios and all, but there is also a great deal of chance (luck or lack of luck) involved.

The thing is, people trying to get true metallics from Lunars have multiple options to *try* for that. I'd rather be happy if there'd also be multiple people who could try for any given combo from a CB Hellhorse.

Don't get me wrong: I love my dragon and that I can breed the hell out of it (hah!) but as a person who has issues with saying "no" I think it would be rather relieving if there were more CB hybrids out there.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Ruby Eyes

[Thuban]

II am pretty ok with cb alts (black, vine, undine and others like them) dropping very-insanely rarely in the cave. Im talking existing cb alt ratios (still a chance, but so remarkably slim that I wont hold out hope for it) to "more rare than golds" provided that they drop as the cb description, and they follow the same rules that the bred ones do (you dont know until they hatch). This does mean that colored stripes would have to be white egg sprite in cave. (will cover a bit more below)

 

This way: you are encouraging people to still pick up and hatch cbs, even if the hatchys just end up dumped to the ap. Its not easily exploitable by the cheaters. It would be frustrating, sure, but those at least are a feasible result of wild dragons breeding, as ANY bred egg (that has an alt) could have that chance to alt.

 

 

My view has changed on the cb hybrids though. Yes, the logic does apply that the wild dragon pairings might actually result in the occasional hybrid egg, but those are a very different thing. I want them, I have a huge hatred of mixed lineages (more than two sprites in a lineage bothers me, and so I dont play with any of the hybrids much, or the "breed only" variations. Colored stripes, surprise variations upon hatching, biome related result.. those dont interest me) so having the hybrids as a cb would be nice. However: hybrids were meant to be bred on purpose, not found.

 

Sooooo: My insane option there would be to treat cb hybrids in a similar way to cb alts. Instead of having them drop directly (as not all have shared descriptions with their parents) instead.. have them drop with one of the cb parents description, even more insanely rarely. So, a bluna egg for example, could show up under the skywing, water or deep sea description (which would encourage people to pick them up). It could show up as one of those three eggs and then hatches into hybrid (its a little sketchy, sure, but it would help encourage people to take the time to hatch the eggs they are farming and makes it easier for TJ to keep them exactly as rare as they need to be to suit his preferences. This way at least, its bound by the alt rules (you dont know what it is until hatchy stage).

 

My big question though is: Should these particular things be /tradable/?. Im leaning in a very strong "no" direction. Their offspring will be worth enough on their own, as there would be so, so many new lineage potentials. I dont think any of these particular cbs should be, at all.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Thuban

[Ruby Eyes]

I like the idea of egg disguise.

[olympe]

Well, so YOU say, and so TJ says. Personally, I'm rather surprised how ZERO Almandines had been offered in the various trade threads before that incident, and how MANY Almandines are there now. My conclusion is that he did change something behind the scenes, whatever it was. Try to convince me otherwise if you happen to have been physically near him and observing him.

That's offtopic now though.

The biomes are moving, thanks to the two new releases we had in the last few weeks. Which means that more of the pyralspite eggs in the queue show up - and get picked up. So, no, it doesn't mean that TJ must have changed something.

 

Regarding egg disguise: I think I'm fine with that, although technically goldfish already "show" as deep seas and soulpeaces as silvers. But that's not so much of a problem.

 

Since these surprise hybrids are caught in the cave fair and square, I don't think that trading them should be prohibited. I can understand and agree with such a measure for shop dragons, but not for caught dragons.

[Thuban]

The biomes are moving, thanks to the two new releases we had in the last few weeks. Which means that more of the pyralspite eggs in the queue show up - and get picked up. So, no, it doesn't mean that TJ must have changed something.

 

Regarding egg disguise: I think I'm fine with that, although technically goldfish already "show" as deep seas and soulpeaces as silvers. But that's not so much of a problem.

 

Since these surprise hybrids are caught in the cave fair and square, I don't think that trading them should be prohibited. I can understand and agree with such a measure for shop dragons, but not for caught dragons.

My counter-argument would be that as of the last raffle, things weren't tradable. I know the HMs didn't play a part in that one, but if they had, I assume they wouldn't have been either.

 

As for the descriptions: yes, some of them match in cave things... but The soulpeace doesnt use silvers, and there is already enough competition for that description anyhow, that I really would rather not see that. That's why im thinking it would be best to use the cb parents descriptions.

 

Hybrids were made to increase peoples interests in the cb parents breeds. They were designed to encourage collection of blocker breeds, and as it stands, hybrids being created, are strongly encouraged to use existing blockers, right? Soooo, lets put the cbs to work. Collect the parent breeds, have small.. small chance of your parent breed actually hatching into the hybrid, rather than as the white, or skywing.. or whatever it is you are likely to hatch. Oh look, built in rewards for collecting common breeds

 

 

[Starscream]

Hybrids were made to increase peoples interests in the cb parents breeds. They were designed to encourage collection of blocker breeds, and as it stands, hybrids being created, are strongly encouraged to use existing blockers, right? Soooo, lets put the cbs to work. Collect the parent breeds, have small.. small chance of your parent breed actually hatching into the hybrid, rather than as the white, or skywing.. or whatever it is you are likely to hatch. Oh look, built in rewards for collecting common breeds

and that is the perfect answer to the blocker problem - which people want to circumvent because they want the alts/hybrids rather than the blockers. I think no to CB alts hybrids because they serve a purpose to help solve the blocker problem.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Starscream

[Ruby Eyes]

I never wanted to circumvent collecting blockers. I'm building lineages with them, I'm just not combining them in a way that hybrids would make me do.

What I also want is build checker lineages with hybrids that do not contain any *other breeds* than the 2 I selected for said checker.

[Starscream]

Work with what is given to you. Sure you might love to do a soulpeace and red exclusive lineage, but that's not doable. Hybrids are hybrids because it takes two species to make. A lot of people make do with what they have.

 

 

[schenanigans]

and that is the perfect answer to the blocker problem -  which people want to circumvent because they want the alts/hybrids rather than the blockers. I think no to CB alts hybrids because they serve a purpose to help solve the blocker problem.

Alts do nothing for caveblockers, being that they are bred only. Unless I'm misunderstanding something? I suppose breeding them for Alts help out ratios. But if anything, would CB Alts not help the caveblocker situation? But I see the argument for no CB Hybrids, that's understandable.

 

Thuban, your idea of egg disguise - while I think that's a great alternative, but would that affect bred hybrid eggs as well? If so, then we have egg sprites that are no longer in use... :x Even just having them share the parent descriptions but keeping their current egg sprites, that gets the cave moving. Sure, they might just be dumped to the AP 5 hours later, but once eggs hit 5 days or less they rarely stay in the AP for long.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about making them non-tradable. That wouldn't make any sense to me. When the egg is generated, is it not already determined what it is going to be? (actually asking as I don't know how that works) So essentially, you wouldn't even be able to trade the eggs, and you'd know when you had an egg that it'd be a Hybrid. Furthermore, now gifting couldn't happen, etc.... Would this also mean you couldn't abandon it? I know people are afraid of rares, but there are so many generous people out there that I honestly don't feel it should be a problem. Them being tradable only makes it better, imho, because -

 

• people are spending 2-3 days to hatch the eggs, so they are putting forth effort

• these caveblockers getting picked up are keeping the cave moving

• hatchlings never last long in the AP

 

I feel like hybrids hatching the way you are suggesting Thuban wouldn't be a huge deal for trades. Their rarity would be perhaps Gold or Silver level, so sure, people can ask for that in the Trade forum. But I feel like hatching a Hybrid from a caveblocker common breed egg would be infinitely easier than catching Golds/Silvers/etc. for so many people. I actually like the idea, thinking about it haha.

 

Edit: because I haven't had any coffee or anything yet, so I hope I put coherent thoughts together properly... x)

Edited April 8, 2016 by Areous

[Moonlight_Eevee]

I don't think I would support this. Getting a CB Alt black/vine would be lovely for breeding purposes, but blacks and vine dragons are hard to come by already so it'd be next to impossible to find them if they turn alt at CB.

 

I can't see how well CB hybrids would work.

[Ruby Eyes]

Work with what is given to you.

I work with what is given to me. A single dragon that fills my inbox. Thank you for your advice, but I'd rather stay here in the spirit of suggestions instead of advice I didn't ask for.

[Thuban]

Alts do nothing for caveblockers, being that they are bred only. Unless I'm misunderstanding something? I suppose breeding them for Alts help out ratios. But if anything, would CB Alts not help the caveblocker situation? But I see the argument for no CB Hybrids, that's understandable.

 

Thuban, your idea of egg disguise - while I think that's a great alternative, but would that affect bred hybrid eggs as well? If so, then we have egg sprites that are no longer in use... :x Even just having them share the parent descriptions but keeping their current egg sprites, that gets the cave moving. Sure, they might just be dumped to the AP 5 hours later, but once eggs hit 5 days or less they rarely stay in the AP for long.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about making them non-tradable. That wouldn't make any sense to me. When the egg is generated, is it not already determined what it is going to be? (actually asking as I don't know how that works) So essentially, you wouldn't even be able to trade the eggs, and you'd know when you had an egg that it'd be a Hybrid. Furthermore, now gifting couldn't happen, etc.... Would this also mean you couldn't abandon it? I know people are afraid of rares, but there are so many generous people out there that I honestly don't feel it should be a problem. Them being tradable only makes it better, imho, because -

 

• people are spending 2-3 days to hatch the eggs, so they are putting forth effort

• these caveblockers getting picked up are keeping the cave moving

• hatchlings never last long in the AP

 

I feel like hybrids hatching the way you are suggesting Thuban wouldn't be a huge deal for trades. Their rarity would be perhaps Gold or Silver level, so sure, people can ask for that in the Trade forum. But I feel like hatching a Hybrid from a caveblocker common breed egg would be infinitely easier than catching Golds/Silvers/etc. for so many people. I actually like the idea, thinking about it haha.

 

Edit: because I haven't had any coffee or anything yet, so I hope I put coherent thoughts together properly... x)

Yes, in my mind it affects the hybrids too. The major difference is that when it comes to the CB hybrids, they wont have the hybrid egg sprite, only the sprite of the parent breed egg (example: a cb white egg could very rarely hatch into soulpeace, A pebble or stone could rarely hatch into a geode... treating it like an alt, keeps it so that the hybrids jobs of encouraging collection of commons is left intact, while still being (exactly as rare as they need to be). The bred ones would still continue to use their normal eggs.

 

 

As for alts doing nothing to encourage collection of a breed... I disagree. If you know there is a small, small chance that your black, vine, undine, stripes could hatch into the breed only color from the normal cb egg.. you might be tempted to try to hatch them more. I know I'd be all over undines, possibly stripes (because I dont like seeing the white ones as cbs in my lineage...)

 

 

As both bred alts and hybrids DO require breeding to happen, I felt it would make more sense to have both hybrids and alts tied to their cb description (or parents description) but with the twist that with the hybrids, you wont know until it hatches if its alt, to encourage people to hatch things rather than "ugh fail, fill the ap again". It would put more hatchys in the ap... everyone loves cb hatchys

 

 

As for their rarity: Im pretty convinced that if the idea were to happen, they would be more rare than "original cb hollys".. even if you include the ones that were handed out for raffles.. they are still pretty rare. Which means.. that if tradable, they would really, really skep the market, even more than the cb prizes did. And since as of the last raffle, the things won werent tradable.. it just makes sense to me to keep them non tradable.

 

I would rather have them available at the risk of being stupidly rare and not tradable, than not have them available at all. Their second gens would still be enough to reset the prize market, and help settle the prices of things back down as more people get them. I do not feel they should be as "common" as cb golds. Thats.. too common, for such a special rare.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Thuban

[schenanigans]

As for alts doing nothing to encourage collection of a breed... I disagree. If you know there is a small, small chance that your black, vine, undine, stripes could hatch into the breed only color from the normal cb egg.. you might be tempted to try to hatch them more. I know I'd be all over undines, possibly stripes (because I dont like seeing the white ones as cbs in my lineage...)

Ah, yes, sorry. Guess I was a bit confusing I was trying to say that having CB Alts would - as I see it - encourage people to pick up the eggs in the cave. I just didn't understand Starscream's statement that the bred alts' purpose was to help CBs move... I suppose they do help indirectly, a bit.

 

That's quite rarer than I was thinking they'd be, honestly, but hey. It's a fair chance for everyone to get them, so unless the normal breeds were driven in a pseudo-rareness, I don't see the problem.

[Thuban]

Ah, yes, sorry. Guess I was a bit confusing I was trying to say that having CB Alts would - as I see it - encourage people to pick up the eggs in the cave. I just didn't understand Starscream's statement that the bred alts' purpose was to help CBs move... I suppose they do help indirectly, a bit.

 

That's quite rarer than I was thinking they'd be, honestly, but hey. It's a fair chance for everyone to get them, so unless the normal breeds were driven in a pseudo-rareness, I don't see the problem.

Bred alts... are a different thing. Im not sure of their history (they existed before I joined).

 

Hybrids specifically were a way to encourage picking up commons to breed new types of dragons. I think that may have been what Star had been trying to say.

 

No to cb alts, yes to hybrids because they were meant to help with blockers (is how i translated that).

[schenanigans]

Bred alts... are a different thing. Im not sure of their history (they existed before I joined).

 

Hybrids specifically were a way to encourage picking up commons to breed new types of dragons. I think that may have been what Star had been trying to say.

 

No to cb alts, yes to hybrids because they were meant to help with blockers (is how i translated that).

Ah, that makes sense then. Thanks for the clarification ^^

[HeatherMarie]

Okay, can someone give me a clear answer on ratios? I had thought that there were no separate CB and bred ratios, that each breed has one overreaching ratio.

 

I'm not understanding how CB hybrids dropping rarely wouldn't make *bred* hybrids rare.