Allow Alts/Hybrids to be CB

[Obscure_Trash]

Work with what is given to you. Sure you might love to do a soulpeace and red exclusive lineage, but that's not doable. Hybrids are hybrids because it takes two species to make. A lot of people make do with what they have.

Might as well close down the suggestions section if this is the reason to say no to suggestions now.

[Yukino]

So you'd rather have them not available at all to anybody because you yourself would have trouble finding them? O.o I'd struggle bus hard to get them myself (read: probably not get CB Hybrids for quite a while) - I only have a CB pair of Silvers that are only now a year old and one CB Gold (that was very kindly gifted recently). Even if you don't own a CB Gold/Silver, there are so many gorgeous lineages that can be made - 2nd Gens are gifted left and right and they're not terribly difficult to get in trade, either.

 

So yes, as a collector, more CB Rares would be frustrating, especially if they are on par with Golds & Silvers. But as a breeder, the only Hybrid/Alt lineages I personally like to deal with actually include the already existing CB Hybrids & Alts, nothing else. If we don't get Hybrids and/or Alts as CB Rares, then there will be some other dragon that takes that place.

 

Either way, they would still be readily available via breeding too - they aren't going to just disappear from that method. They'll just be made available as CBs as well. Icing on the cake. Making them COMMONS would be no point.

I'd say I'd rather not have them than have them be stupidly rare, yes.

 

I really don't see how having them be that rare helps the majority of players. If you don't have CBs, you can't decide on a mate unless you directly have something to trade for it or are gifted it. So it doesn't help the majority lineage wise since they'll still have to content themselves with bred hybrids. As well, gifting of CB metallic, 2nd gen. hollies, etc. are ridiculously rare, especially without a network. Your argument that "hey, gifting will occur" is non-representative of the DC population. Those few that are gifted outside the network usually also occur if you're active in the forum, there's a lot that aren't or don't even have forum accounts. Trading for these 2nd gen. rares isn't easy either. Just scroll through any of the rare trade thread - 99% of them ask for swaps of equal rarity.

Edited April 9, 2016 by WinterRaven

[pederino]

I'd say I'd rather not have them than have them be stupidly rare, yes.

 

I really don't see how having them be that rare helps the majority of players. If you don't have CBs, you can't decide on a mate unless you directly have something to trade for it or are gifted it. So it doesn't help the majority lineage wise since they'll still have to content themselves with bred hybrids. As well, gifting of CB metallic, 2nd gen. hollies, etc. are ridiculously rare, especially without a network. Your argument that "hey, gifting will occur" is non-representative of the DC population. Those few that are gifted outside the network usually also occur if you're active in the forum, there's a lot that aren't or don't even have forum accounts. Trading for these 2nd gen. rares isn't easy either. Just scroll through any of the rare trade thread - 99% of them ask for swaps of equal rarity.

Even though I agree with you about the "if its going to be nearly impossible to get or have too many limitations, we better not have it", I actually want more "true" rares, or in other words, more rares to the level of silver and gold (and I even think more "true" rares will be bennefficial to the site). I do want that because that would alleviate the high pressure those 2 breeds have at the moment. So, if we have more "true" rares, the rare hoarders will get stuck with a set of rares, giving more possibilities to slower-catchers to get some of those "true" rares (remember that 7 is the max of eggs one can have at a time, with only 2 "true" rares that means 3 of each and 1 extra, but with 10, that would be 1 of each, and you cant fill the other 3). This is, of course, with speculation on how the ratios work, it may be even worse and will make golds and silvers even more rares, though I doubt so seeing how breeds behave after a new breed is released in the cave.

Edited April 9, 2016 by pederino

[SullenCat]

Even though I agree with you about the "if its going to be nearly impossible to get or have too many limitations, we better not have it", I actually want more "true" rares, or in other words, more rares to the level of silver and gold (and I even think more "true" rares will be bennefficial to the site). I do want that because that would alleviate the high pressure those 2 breeds have at the moment. So, if we have more "true" rares, the rare hoarders will get stuck with a set of rares, giving more possibilities to slower-catchers to get some of those "true" rares (remember that 7 is the max of eggs one can have at a time, with only 2 "true" rares that means 3 of each and 1 extra, but with 10, that would be 1 of each, and you cant fill the other 3). This is, of course, with speculation on how the ratios work, it may be even worse and will make golds and silvers even more rares, though I doubt so seeing how breeds behave after a new breed is released in the cave.

Yup. If there were 10, even 20, rares at Gold level or rarer, people would not be so obsessed with Silvers and Golds. Fast catchers would focus also on other breeds and there would be more "stuff" to trade.

Edited April 9, 2016 by SullenCat

[schenanigans]

I'd say I'd rather not have them than have them be stupidly rare, yes.

 

I really don't see how having them be that rare helps the majority of players. If you don't have CBs, you can't decide on a mate unless you directly have something to trade for it or are gifted it. So it doesn't help the majority lineage wise since they'll still have to content themselves with bred hybrids. As well, gifting of CB metallic, 2nd gen. hollies, etc. are ridiculously rare, especially without a network. Your argument that "hey, gifting will occur" is non-representative of the DC population. Those few that are gifted outside the network usually also occur if you're active in the forum, there's a lot that aren't or don't even have forum accounts. Trading for these 2nd gen. rares isn't easy either. Just scroll through any of the rare trade thread - 99% of them ask for swaps of equal rarity.

 

If we look at CB Hybrids like CB Golds/Silvers, just as an example - "fails" are often abandoned or gifted, so no problem getting those. And looking through the Trade forums, yes, a lot of them are asking for 2G Swaps - okay, cool, that's a fair request. But there are also a few that are asking for CB Coppers/Xenos or Holiday mates, and I highly doubt anybody would turn down hatchlings for scroll completion or lineage purposes. People request and are often gifted 2G+ Metallics in the Breeding, Gifting thread (one of the many threads available)... Granted, the wait may take a bit due to their picky nature, but it's far from impossible to get mates. There are plenty of ways to get 2nd Gens on the forums.

 

Gifting of CB Metallics - not as rare as you'd think, just because you, personally, have not been a recipient. I've seen it happen all over the place - "networks" aren't needed. People gift things randomly. There's Glomp gifting threads, threads to earn rewards and request CB Metallics, sometimes there's raffles, etc. So yes, being active on the forums helps - but a "network" is far from necessary. My absolute favorite dragon was gifted to me just this past Christmas by someone (or rather, 2 people) I would have never considered would actually notice. People gift in threads outside of what can be found in the Trading forums! But people here seem to love the word "anecdotal" - so I suppose my experience would be considered anecdotal, but arguably yours could be, too.

 

2nd Gen Hollies are different - they (as CBs) are by far the most underpopulated dragon here on DC (excluding the current CB Hybrids). There were at least 3 (of the few remaining active Holly owners) that were giving away their Holly offspring this year! And they multiclutch, and people gift those as well. So yes, because their population is lower, less are gifted, but it absolutely does happen. Perhaps even more so for the % of CB Hollies that are still around.

 

And yes, there are so many players that are not active on the forums. There are also plenty of these that are not active on the forums that don't need to be gifted eggs, they have no trouble collecting what they need, either. I can't gift something to somebody that I have no idea exists, so yes, they'd need a forum account for me to even think about sending them something unless I want to dump whatever it is into the AP - which plenty of people do. There were so many thank you's in the Abandoned Lineage thread after the Holiday-kin mass breed event because there were tons of 2nd, 3rd+ gen Metallics, Alt-kin, Holly-kin, etc. that were dumped for people. And that was just what was caught by the forum-goers.

 

As I said before, rares will exist. Shall we discontinue Golds, Silvers, Neglecteds, etc. because a majority of the population do not readily have access to these? Absolutely not. People have to be content with alts/hybrids to be bred only currently, anyways. Not to mention - how many people absolutely don't care about lineages? There have been people on the forum that have announced that they thoroughly enjoy inbred, massive, "unclean" lineages because to them, they tell a story. There's a background, it gives their dragon character.

 

There are all sorts of demographics to DC. Some that we normally wouldn't even think about (want to release your dragons, anyone? ), and many are not on the forums. So there are all sorts of points to be considered, both for and against suggestions like this. But imho, to completely shut down a suggestion because it's difficult for some, and deny something to other users? Meh. It only allows more options, that's all.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Areous

[Jazeki]

I'd say I'd rather not have them than have them be stupidly rare, yes.

 

I really don't see how having them be that rare helps the majority of players. If you don't have CBs, you can't decide on a mate unless you directly have something to trade for it or are gifted it. So it doesn't help the majority lineage wise since they'll still have to content themselves with bred hybrids. As well, gifting of CB metallic, 2nd gen. hollies, etc. are ridiculously rare, especially without a network. Your argument that "hey, gifting will occur" is non-representative of the DC population. Those few that are gifted outside the network usually also occur if you're active in the forum, there's a lot that aren't or don't even have forum accounts. Trading for these 2nd gen. rares isn't easy either. Just scroll through any of the rare trade thread - 99% of them ask for swaps of equal rarity.

I think it's best not to generalize the whole of DC based on your experiences. Speaking from experience, my first CB metallics, prizes, and sundry other "rare" dragons were gifts from passing strangers. I love to gift holidays and other dragons to new users. It is often easier to try and make arrangements with users you know or set up quick trades to fulfill scroll goals for expediency, but that doesn't mean that majority of DC doesn't share or ask for only rares in return.

 

A user with a CB hybrid even posted that she would be happier if CB hybrids and alts were in the cave because it would alleviate gifting pressure. This suggestion helps many more people than it hurts even if the dragons were ultra rare like golds or silvers.

[Zeditha]

I'd just like to put in a support for CB alts, but not for Hybrids.

Hybrids can only be bred and I think it adds an extra layer of interesting play to the game; if you let them be CB, however rare, it would take away their special nature.

With alts though their unique feature is hatching rarely from an identical egg, so adding them as CBs wouldn't take that away.

[stagazer_7]

I would love to see Alts as CB's, it would make sense lore-wise as I don't really see any good reason they couldn't hatch from a Cave caught egg - actually, the same reasoning goes for Hybrids, since they've been bred in the Wild, we don't really know who their parents are, making them CB's. I'm still on the edge about them though - because as much as I would adore to have a CB Hellhorse or Soulpeace, the entire point of hybrids is that they are... well, bred. Ugh, can't decide on this one!

[pederino]

I would love to see Alts as CB's, it would make sense lore-wise as I don't really see any good reason they couldn't hatch from a Cave caught egg - actually, the same reasoning goes for Hybrids, since they've been bred in the Wild, we don't really know who their parents are, making them CB's. I'm still on the edge about them though - because as much as I would adore to have a CB Hellhorse or Soulpeace, the entire point of hybrids is that they are... well, bred. Ugh, can't decide on this one!

I think I can help you with this one: 'bred' alts [vines, blacks and undines] are supposed to be bred; so, if you support one, you basically support the other. But of course, it depends on what you want to believe

[NotBambi]

I find interesting that, according to the informal poll, 51.12% support adding CB Alts but only 20.51% support adding CB Hybrids. Please could someone summarize the rationale behind those percentages?

Edited April 12, 2016 by NotBambi

[Nerei]

I find interesting that, according to the informal poll, 51.12% support adding CB Alts but only 20.51% support adding CB Hybrids. Please could someone summarize the rationale behind those percentages?

This is actually the way I myself voted. It would be interesting to find other alts as rare drops in the cave, like you can with ridgewings and dorsals. I prefer these breeds to blacks and dark greens and undines specifically because they can be cave born. Personally, I dislike collecting lineaged dragons, and I never understood why some alts could be cave born and some couldn't. However, hybrids I think should not ever be found in the cave. They seem like the type that wouldn't naturally occur in the wild, instead only being bred through human intervention (the player breeding two hybrid-creating breeds together).

[Jazeki]

This is actually the way I myself voted. It would be interesting to find other alts as rare drops in the cave, like you can with ridgewings and dorsals. I prefer these breeds to blacks and dark greens and undines specifically because they can be cave born. Personally, I dislike collecting lineaged dragons, and I never understood why some alts could be cave born and some couldn't. However, hybrids I think should not ever be found in the cave. They seem like the type that wouldn't naturally occur in the wild, instead only being bred through human intervention (the player breeding two hybrid-creating breeds together).

How do we know that these hybrids wouldn't naturally occur in the wild? For example, whites are from the same habitats as daydreams, purples are in the same habitat as spitfires, magis are in the same habitat as waters. Just because the humans are prone to breed the hybrids doesn't mean that they aren't also naturally occurring.

[Tawanda001]

Like the disguise idea, neat solution.

But not so crazy about the idea of something picked up in cave not being tradeable. Not everyone is into hybrids, cares about lineages or may not even realize what they have if they don't participate in the forums. So those CB's may or may not get bred, not to mention it seems wrong that if someone grabs something they personally don't have much use for that they can't trade it away for something they want more. it's not like being a prize winner where you can choose what you get or turn it down ahead of time.

 

Plus I'm for CB hybrids for several reasons. One is because I'd love to get my hands on one myself. Two, because I do feel for the HM hybrid winners, all two of them trying to breed their cbs into the population of DC must get overwhelming. Plus kinda wondering what happens when/ if they retire thier cb hybrids altogether, what effect will that have on the value of their 2gs? Does it get crazy like the 2g prize and holly trades?

[NotBambi]

How do we know that these hybrids wouldn't naturally occur in the wild? For example, whites are from the same habitats as daydreams, purples are in the same habitat as spitfires, magis are in the same habitat as waters. Just because the humans are prone to breed the hybrids doesn't mean that they aren't also naturally occurring.

I must agree with both (bold by yours truly) points.

 

And I must agree with Tawanda, as well.

Edited April 12, 2016 by NotBambi

[Nerei]

How do we know that these hybrids wouldn't naturally occur in the wild? For example, whites are from the same habitats as daydreams, purples are in the same habitat as spitfires, magis are in the same habitat as waters. Just because the humans are prone to breed the hybrids doesn't mean that they aren't also naturally occurring.

That was just my assumption, a reason why we don't find hybrids in the cave. For all we know, wild dragons do not interbreed at all. Just curious, but are you advocating for hybrids to be found in the cave? If not, I don't think this would matter much. If so, you actually have a pretty valid point for CB hybrids.

[pederino]

That was just my assumption, a reason why we don't find hybrids in the cave. For all we know, wild dragons do not interbreed at all. Just curious, but are you advocating for hybrids to be found in the cave? If not, I don't think this would matter much. If so, you actually have a pretty valid point for CB hybrids.

Sorry for going off-topic... but what relevance does her position have for the value of her arguments ? I mean, she can be completely against them being released in cave at all, she can still raise those points, and that doesnt make them less or more valuable...

 

Anyway, just to make sure this is not complete spam. I dont really like the idea of "disguise" eggs, I could maybe understand if the egg has the description of any of the parents or its own, but not also the sprite of the parents, I mean, it makes little sense, and would actually drive me nuts to raise an egg for 2 days (with incubate), taking me an egg-slot just to know it wasnt what I was expecting it to be (I really dislike gemshards and bred alts because of that only thing). And I think that with rotative descriptions it will be more than enough (I mean, up to 3 different descriptions can confuse anyone).

[Jazeki]

That was just my assumption, a reason why we don't find hybrids in the cave. For all we know, wild dragons do not interbreed at all. Just curious, but are you advocating for hybrids to be found in the cave? If not, I don't think this would matter much. If so, you actually have a pretty valid point for CB hybrids.

I am for hybrids and alts in the cave. I stated on page 9 in the thread (not sure what page it was before the thread merge). Even so, we don't know anything about how these dragons breed aside from what TJ/ the creators tell us. As such, it's best not to base things on assumptions.

[Ruby Eyes]

Most of what I've read here isn't really any assumption about how things work, but rather how things are narratively justified.

 

And continueing that: Even hybrids of breeds that aren't usually found in the same biome shouldn't be impossible - it's not like there's a stonewall between biomes that would prevent them from wandering around and meeting other dragons - they have telepathy, after all, and should be able to sweettalk to each other despite all physical differences.

[olympe]

Not to mention that most of them have wings... Plus, they sure are able to hybridize, as our breeding projects prove.

[Nerei]

Sorry for going off-topic... but what relevance does her position have for the value of her arguments  ? I mean, she can be completely against them being released in cave at all, she can still raise those points, and that doesnt make them less or more valuable...

I asked her position and then stated her argument was valid. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Niyaka

[Tawanda001]

 

Anyway, just to make sure this is not complete spam. I dont really like the idea of "disguise" eggs, I could maybe understand if the egg has the description of any of the parents or its own, but not also the sprite of the parents, I mean, it makes little sense, and would actually drive me nuts to raise an egg for 2 days (with incubate), taking me an egg-slot just to know it wasnt what I was expecting it to be

Hmmm, I don't see it as any different than how 2g alts work. When you pick up that vine or undine you get the same description as the parent and you don't know until it hatches what you truly have and whether or not it's going to fit your plans. And if they are rare I doubt anyone would have trouble trading it for whatever less rare thing they were hoping for. It might be annoying at times, but I think a minor annoyance no worse than having your pb black turn into an alt.

[Fuzzbucket]

Hmmm, I don't see it as any different than how 2g alts work. When you pick up that vine or undine you get the same description as the parent and you don't know until it hatches what you truly have and whether or not it's going to fit your plans. And if they are rare I doubt anyone would have trouble trading it for whatever less rare thing they were hoping for. It might be annoying at times, but I think a minor annoyance no worse than having your pb black turn into an alt.

Absolutely. I think if this were to happen, it should be as it is now - the egg has the usual breed description - just as nebulas and ridgies and dorsals do. Now for a hybrid - you do get a different one - soulpeace is a delightful example.

 

This egg gives off a beautiful glow.

 

 

OK so you might have hoped for a silver - but hey - not so bad to get a CB hybrid instead, now is it ? Geodes and shallows might make more people cross. But not everything has to be totally easy; what's wrong with a few risks ? I do find it a bit depressing that people want to take out every element of sheer chance good/bad luck and have their hands held in case of Something Unexpected In The Woodpile....

 

BTW I do NOT think avatars should be available CB....

[SkinDrake]

Totally support CB Alts, but not hybrid.

[pederino]

Hmmm, I don't see it as any different than how 2g alts work. When you pick up that vine or undine you get the same description as the parent and you don't know until it hatches what you truly have and whether or not it's going to fit your plans. And if they are rare I doubt anyone would have trouble trading it for whatever less rare thing they were hoping for. It might be annoying at times, but I think a minor annoyance no worse than having your pb black turn into an alt.

Ok, you just cherrypicked my comment. This was the last part you took away (I bolded now):

 

(I really dislike gemshards and bred alts because of that only thing). And I think that with rotative descriptions it will be more than enough (I mean, up to 3 different descriptions can confuse anyone).

 

I dont care if 'CB' bred alts keep behaving like they do. But for hybrids, I want to know if what I snatched was a hybrid or not the moment I snatched it; not wait until the egg hatches, because those are 2 days of an egg occupying one of my egg slots, probably for nothing. I can understand enjoying risk, or some challenges, but there are enough breed that offer that -not that there cant be more, but I really hope they dont become common thing-, we have the nebulas, the coppers, the alts (bred or CB), the seasonals (which you have to wait depending on the time), and so many others; why make the hybrids behave like one of them? Specially when you can still make them difficult to get with this solution:

 

When in the cave, if a hybrid appears, the description will show as follows:

 

10% of the time it will be the hybrids original description

90% of the time it will be one of its "parents" descriptions (parents here is any of the dragons that can reproduce the breed)

 

So, for example:

 

The geode would have 2 descriptions:

10% + 45% "This egg is heavy and rough, as if it were made out of rock." Geodes original description + Stones description

45% "This egg is sitting in a pile of small pebbles." Greens description

 

The bluna would have 4 descriptions:

10% "This egg has colored speckles on it." Blunas original description

30% "This egg appears to be covered in scales." Deep Seas description

30% "This egg is sitting in a shallow puddle." Waters description

30% "This egg has strange markings on it." Skywings description

 

The hellhorse would have 3 descriptions:

10% "This hot egg shakes violently when you touch it." Hellhorses original description

45% "This egg radiates the heat of a fell flame." Helfire wyverns description

45% "This egg has strange markings on it." Horse description

 

The avatars are more complex, as there are 2 ways to go with them: they share description with a lot of other dragons plus their description; or they only have their description. Either case, they should be more rare than golds.

 

And also, there is no issue if you get a rare thing expecting a common thing, the problem is when you are expecting (or want) a rare and get a common thing (You wasted 2 days -if you used incubate- to then trade it for something else, gift it, or abandon it -or keeping it if you didnt care, but thats another part of the story). But, if you can see what you get right after, you can take action in less time (I think its 5 hours). It is still time wasted, but is not 2-days wasted.

Edited April 12, 2016 by pederino

[Fuzzbucket]

I feel VERY strongly that avatars HAVE to be bred.

 

That was the whole "thing" behind their creation in the first place.

I want to know if what I snatched was a hybrid or not the moment I snatched it;

 

You do. You can see the egg. The hybrid egg is quite different from the - other egg with the same description. It's only in the snatching you aren't sure. Like pinks and flamingos - you can get the wrong one. Big deal. As soon as the egg is on your scroll, you can see what you got and only have to wait 5 days to dump it.

Edited April 12, 2016 by fuzzbucket