Allow Alts/Hybrids to be CB

[Banuk]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why something like this should be shut down because an incredibly small number of users already have CB hybrids.

 

I really am starting to despise the reasoning, "Oh, no, we can't do that--______s will be less special if other people can get them!"

 

No, they won't be less special. No one's ANYTHING should be less "special" to them because more people have it. They would be less valuable. There's a difference.

 

Besides, they would have gotten CB hybrids first. Years before anyone else. Isn't that special in itself?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why something like this should be shut down because an incredibly small number of users already have CB hybrids.

 

I really am starting to despise the reasoning, "Oh, no, we can't do that--______s will be less special if other people can get them!"

 

No, they won't be less special. No one's ANYTHING should be less "special" to them because more people have it. They would be less valuable. There's a difference.

 

Besides, they would have gotten CB hybrids first. Years before anyone else. Isn't that special in itself?

This is sort of how I feel. The population of HM winners--and especially the population within that group that chose CB Hybrids/Alts over things like Hollies and Metals--is so very, very small compared to the total game-playing population that I feel it's equally unfair to shut down an idea entirely on fears that their things might become less special. ;____;

 

If this were implemented, though, I imagine if TJ wished to he could easily set up some sort of system in which the owners of such dragons could contact him (if he didn't contact them himself), and perhaps give them the opportunity to have a slightly different colored version of their dragon. Sort of a "Spriter's Alt" of a common, if you will, kind of like how people who lost their Sweetlings due to a glitch were compensated with the dark versions.

 

On another note, I still think that CB Hybrids make as much sense as CB Alts. While animals don't hybridize in the wild as often as they do in captivity, they DO still hybridize, and since all of our current hybrid's parent breeds can be found in the same biomes, it's not particularly hard to justify that it could happen. So long as they were much rarer to find then they were to breed, it should be all good... Plus, I still don't think that hybrids help out their parent breeds for much more than a month or so after release, so I doubt it'd hurt common breeds much. ^^;

[tridymite]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why something like this should be shut down because an incredibly small number of users already have CB hybrids.

No one i have seen or know has CB hybrids! (CB alt blacks yes, dont know of any CB alt vines or coloured CB stripes)

 

I still think it should be a HM thing only!

 

(mabye have more HMs/prizes - but thats another story)

[Windnose]

If the raffle has been going for three years, and every year there's 25 HM winners, then there's only 75 HM winners to begin with (correct me if I'm wrong). DC has over 40,000 users and I'm willing to bet that no more than 10 of those HM winners chose CB alts/hybrids; that's less than 0.00025% of the DC user population. So, I also am struggling to fully understand why people are saying no because of the HM winners. If it truly upsets them (and if they chose a CB alt/hybrid, I believe they either have the most complete scroll possible or they must truly love that alt/hybrid so they shouldn't care if others get it too), then it really wouldn't be that hard for TJ to make the first CB alts/hybrids special.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I have to agree here. All those HMs don't add up to enough folk to completely derail something that a lot of folk are supporting. I'm thinking of the overall population of 40,000+ members and less than a 100 HMs. As the old saying goes, that's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.... as in, it's totally ridiculous.

[siliconrose]

If the raffle has been going for three years, and every year there's 25 HM winners, then there's only 75 HM winners to begin with (correct me if I'm wrong). DC has over 40,000 users and I'm willing to bet that no more than 10 of those HM winners chose CB alts/hybrids; that's less than 0.00025% of the DC user population. So, I also am struggling to fully understand why people are saying no because of the HM winners. If it truly upsets them (and if they chose a CB alt/hybrid, I believe they either have the most complete scroll possible or they must truly love that alt/hybrid so they shouldn't care if others get it too), then it really wouldn't be that hard for TJ to make the first CB alts/hybrids special.

I believe it was 20 for the first two years and 40 this year, so that would be 80 total. (Your numbers aren't significantly off, but I figured I'd mention.)

 

As far as I can tell, most of those people chose hollies.

[Saloiq]

I don't really want CB alts of Blacks and Vines (or CB colored Stripes) to be implemented right now since I'd rather them not be even rarer. If Blacks/Vines/Stripes ever become more common, or a release of CB hybrids proves they wouldn't jump that high in demand, I would support CB alts for lineage reasons. ^^ I'd like CB hybrids right now for lineages, and it wouldn't matter if the parents got rarer. (Assuming the hybrid egg takes the description of one of its parents.)

 

However, if CB Hybrids were adopted as a mechanism to clear the cave more often, I think there should be additional guaranteed drop times since I'm sure many people will just drop the fail-non-hybrid eggs they grabbed. :< And my dislike of CB alts is because I'm not very fond of trading; others who like trading and collecting goals would probably be all for a new rare dragon.

 

 

As for HMs who chose hybrids: I support the idea that TJ let them choose another prize.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Saloiq

[purplehaze]

As for HMs who chose hybrids: I support the idea that TJ let them choose another prize.

And just what other prize is left for them to choose if CB alts and CB hybrids are off the table? Hollies and Frills (if Frills were even allowed this year, which some winners said they were not). What else?

[ManyVoices]

I don't mind the idea of having the alts and hybrids dropped in the cave, and voted so, but on further consideration I think it should be limited to alts only. I also think they should share the description of of the regular eggs and once picked up should look the same. I also think they should be rare/very rare like gold and silver.

 

Example: I pick up a black egg with the "faint green glow" description. I won't know it's an alt until it hatches.

 

The same could be done, but would be more complicated, with hybrids since some have more than one combination of possible parents.

 

Who would have thunk this could be so complicated an issue

Edited February 7, 2013 by ManyVoices

[Vhale]

To me, it's a matter of ethics. I don't like the idea of giving someone a prize then changing it later. That's going back on your word to that person and devalues your word in the future. Sure I'd love a CB alt, but I would feel like a greedy jerk to vote out someone else's Christmas prize for my own benefit. Maybe I'm a minority in feeling that way, but people asked so there's my explanation. No, my feeling on rescinding gifts is not likely to change and is not a personal attack on anyone else. It's just how I feel about gifting due to some members of my family being turds.

[purplehaze]

To me, it's a matter of ethics. I don't like the idea of giving someone a prize then changing it later. That's going back on your word to that person and devalues your word in the future. Sure I'd love a CB alt, but I would feel like a greedy jerk to vote out someone else's Christmas prize for my own benefit. Maybe I'm a minority in feeling that way, but people asked so there's my explanation. No, my feeling on rescinding gifts is not likely to change and is not a personal attack on anyone else. It's just how I feel about gifting due to some members of my family being turds.

I really have to agree with this. If CB alts had never been allowed as HM prizes then that would be a different story, but since they were I don't think it is fair to take away their uniqueness. "Oops! Someone else wants to be able to have this kind of dragon, so I am going to spoil your prize! Is there something else you would like instead?" That is just not right.

[Fuzzbucket]

I really have to agree with this. If CB alts had never been allowed as HM prizes then that would be a different story, but since they were I don't think it is fair to take away their uniqueness. "Oops! Someone else wants to be able to have this kind of dragon, so I am going to spoil your prize! Is there something else you would like instead?" That is just not right.

This also applies to CB hybrids, doesn't it - they were allowed as prizes, no ? I think things should stay as they are.

[purplehaze]

This also applies to CB hybrids, doesn't it - they were allowed as prizes, no ? I think things should stay as they are.

Yes, it does, but it seems fewer people are really pushing for that. I agree that things should stay as they are.

 

There is no real compelling reason for changing this, and I think the prize HMs are a compelling reason for leaving things as they are!

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If the raffle has been going for three years, and every year there's 25 HM winners, then there's only 75 HM winners to begin with (correct me if I'm wrong). DC has over 40,000 users and I'm willing to bet that no more than 10 of those HM winners chose CB alts/hybrids; that's less than 0.00025% of the DC user population. So, I also am struggling to fully understand why people are saying no because of the HM winners. If it truly upsets them (and if they chose a CB alt/hybrid, I believe they either have the most complete scroll possible or they must truly love that alt/hybrid so they shouldn't care if others get it too), then it really wouldn't be that hard for TJ to make the first CB alts/hybrids special.

*Takes this post and runs around with it*

 

This, this and this. If you want to argue against it for other reasons, then go ahead, but I don't feel that shooting down a proposal that's about 50/50 in terms of support atm (which doesn't happen often here--suggestions usually go crazy one way or the other) just for the sake of such a small amount of people is very logical. ;;

 

I'm sure TJ could come up with some other way to compensate them, as I said, either with a slight color change or maybe some special marking or something. TJ also mentioned adding in the location of where a dragon was caught to their pages in future, so perhaps they could prove they were special by having a 'Prize' notice instead of a biome one, making them special and valued in much the same way 2008 Original Vampires are valued more then the 'fake' unbitten Vampires that were created before bite lineage was recorded. I have both types of Vampires, and I can tell you that the original's spawn are worth much more. I imagine the same would happen with the original Alts.

 

But overriding a suggestion just to please an extreme minority...

Edited February 7, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

If you were one of that "extreme minority" wouldn't you be a bit teed off ? I would. You get something that is supposed to be TOTALLY special and then the rules are changed and it is suddenly NOT that special any more.

 

That's the same as saying - OK tins are no longer being offered as prizes, so let's put THEM in the cave too. Or like saying actually, that limited edition print you paid $4000 for last week - we are reissuing it, so there won't only be 5 of them any more..

 

You want this because you want a CB alt, I assume ? Fine. So get out there and win one Though I hope to get there first !

[sparkle10184]

I don't like the idea of CB Alts. What about all the people who have chosen a CB Alt Black as theor honorable mention prize? Their prize wouldn't be special anymore...

[purplehaze]

Just because there aren't very many of the HM winners who picked CB alts or hybrids as their prize doesn't mean that they don't matter. I just see it as a matter of honor. Maybe they don't want some special dragon created to compensate them. And if they do get it, it won't be long before someone is screaming "UNFAIR" because they can never have one of those!

 

DC has gone along just fine with alts being breed-only for many years. Now is it just because some people have CB alts that you think everyone should be able to have them? I don't think a change like this should be made without some compelling reason and I don't think there is one.

[Obscure_Trash]

Just because there aren't very many of the HM winners who picked CB alts or hybrids as their prize doesn't mean that they don't matter. I just see it as a matter of honor. Maybe they don't want some special dragon created to compensate them.

I agree with this and this:

 

There is no real compelling reason for changing this, and I think the prize HMs are a compelling reason for leaving things as they are!

 

There are lots of dragons with many cb variants in the completed and dragon requests section. I think if more of those were released, perhaps people would feel more as if their blacks and hybrids are special as bred-only? /just thinking

[Vhale]

I think it got looked over a bit, but there was a point that beyond cb alts, there's not much else available as a HM prize. I suppose picking the code is nice. But people may have picked that option because they already have hollies or frills. There isn't much else to have.

 

However, going off Sock's comment I've thought before. Being able to choose the next release would be a little epic :3

[TJ09]

For the case of CB black and vine dragons, I do not believe it is necessary to allow them to alt. I am fine with the introduction of new concepts that use whatever alt structure they want, but I don't think modifying the behavior of these in-cave alts is a good idea.

[Ashywolf]

For the case of CB black and vine dragons, I do not believe it is necessary to allow them to alt. I am fine with the introduction of new concepts that use whatever alt structure they want, but I don't think modifying the behavior of these in-cave alts is a good idea.

This.

 

Honestly CB hybrids makes more sense since it seems odd that they only occur when we match them ourselves and never in nature.

[olympe]

I have to disagree with this. How many ligers/tigons, hebras/zorses, mules/hinnies, AfricanxAsian elephants, wolphins and so on do you actually find in nature? Very, very few of them, if you find them at all. However, many of them can be easily bred in captivity, especially horse and large cat hybrids.

 

And what do you think how likely it is that an ever-flying skywing and a deep sea dragon (that's named so because it lives in the deep sea!) produce viable offspring with one another?

[HeatherMarie]

For the case of CB black and vine dragons, I do not believe it is necessary to allow them to alt. I am fine with the introduction of new concepts that use whatever alt structure they want, but I don't think modifying the behavior of these in-cave alts is a good idea.

TJ's post (thankfully) touches on my main reason for disliking this idea. We can't do much about "retired" breeds that are retired because of Spriter's wishes, but there is usually a lot of fuss when an in-cave sprite is messed with (golds? dimorphism?). Vines and Blacks, because of their concept/creator/etc, have a chance of producing alts when *bred*. That's always been the case, as far as I know. I see no *need* to change that, just because *some* people prefer CBs.

 

If CB alts are a part of the initial concept (Dorsals, for example), that's fine. But there's really no reason to change how these specific alts have always worked.

[Ashywolf]

I have to disagree with this. How many ligers/tigons, hebras/zorses, mules/hinnies, AfricanxAsian elephants, wolphins and so on do you actually find in nature? Very, very few of them, if you find them at all. However, many of them can be easily bred in captivity, especially horse and large cat hybrids.

 

And what do you think how likely it is that an ever-flying skywing and a deep sea dragon (that's named so because it lives in the deep sea!) produce viable offspring with one another?

Ducks, warblers, butterflies etc. hybridize all the time in the wild. Yes, its true that many hybrids are "unnatural" but not all.

 

Honestly I agree with your point, but I doubt the skywing and deep sea are closely related enough (genetically) to begin with and how come water and skywing produce the exact same hybrid? I'm not going to pick this apart that much however.

[Shamiir]

I have to disagree with this. How many ligers/tigons, hebras/zorses, mules/hinnies, AfricanxAsian elephants, wolphins and so on do you actually find in nature? Very, very few of them, if you find them at all. However, many of them can be easily bred in captivity, especially horse and large cat hybrids.

 

And what do you think how likely it is that an ever-flying skywing and a deep sea dragon (that's named so because it lives in the deep sea!) produce viable offspring with one another?

This.

 

Of course, there are some hybrids occurring in the wild. But not to the radical extent of those bred in captivity.

And some wild hybrids have less chance of survival due to camouflage issues etc.

For dragons, we could make up theories to support either imaginary case all day long.

To my view, it is just 'fixing' something that doesn't need fixing.

 

Nor do I see any point in having cave alt blacks and vines.

There are many more important new draggies and ideas on the drawing board to focus on. And blacks/vines work well as are, especially for those who have trouble catching rares in the cave.