Ascension

[Cir_C]

I like the idea. I'm more inclined to say that it should take 6 months took get ascended, there be no failure rate, there be a maximum limit of 12, and that Ascended will produce more eggs than average, and have a higher chance of each breeding be successful. That is just my take on this Ascension thing.

 

Reasoning:

 

1) I feel that six months is the perfect number. Most dragons that you've had for six months probably mean enough to you that will not kill them or abandon them. It will also be long enough for someone to show their dedication to Dragon Cave.

 

2) I feel that it would make things too complicated, and most importantly too frustrating, because there are already a lot of frustrations on this site. I just want to keep things simple and not have the frustration of keep trying over and over to get one dragon to ascend.

 

3) The maximum limit should be there so that way people who have huge amounts of dragons don't get more than their fair share. I think a dozen is fair, am fine with anything above 6, and am not fine with anything above 18. People should only be ascending their most important dragons, not all of their eligible dragons for the heck of it.

 

4) These are dragons in their prime, and as such I feel that they should get something more than another skin. I'm not a fan of there being dozens of BSAs, so I kinda disagree on that point, but Ascended dragons should definitely get some kind of benefit/reason to Ascend them. In my opinion, that should be more eggs produced than a normal clutch(maybe 6), and with that, if the breeder has enough slots, they can keep up to two additional eggs(3 total). I know that is a bit complex, but it would definitely give people a reason to ascend.

 

5) This is just another idea I'm throwing out there, and that is whenever a ascended dragon breeds, it will be more likely to produce eggs. I'm not sure what the percent should be, but maybe just enough that the possibility of at least one egg being produced is about a third more.

 

Anyways, just my take on the whole ascended thing. /endwalloftext

[Nogard145]

I do think that if it has no failure rate and has higher breeding probability (which I want) it should either take a long time for them to ascend, or make it more difficult to gain the choice of ascension. However i have a problem with the limit. I don't mind it if each dragon has the same ascension form (which I don't really like the idea of), but if they all are going to have different ones it makes collecting them all impossible. The fact that you have the chance to get almost every dragon created (with the exception of 2 and a few alt forms) is one of my favorite things about DC. The limit is discouraging unless the ascension form is the original with a slight change (like a glow or sparkle or something)

 

 

But what if people want to have a lineage of ascended dragons, assuming they're still able to breed? That would mean nobody could have an ascended lineage. :< I personally think it would be really cool to have a lineage of dragons alternating between ascended and not--that could look really, really cool!

 

The problem with this is that you have no control over what other people do and it could destroy a linage.

[Dr. Paine]

3) The maximum limit should be there so that way people who have huge amounts of dragons don't get more than their fair share. I think a dozen is fair, am fine with anything above 6, and am not fine with anything above 18. People should only be ascending their most important dragons, not all of their eligible dragons for the heck of it.

---

 

So... by that reasoning, should Holiday eggs be unbitable? I bit one of the eggs my Yulebuck bred last Christmas, just for the heck of it (it turned and stayed, for the record). Should people not be allowed to freeze rares?

 

Why should ascension be limited, and force others to play the game in a way they don't want? What about people who do tons of descriptions, and want to weave a story about some huge group of ascended dragons, why should they be unable to do that? And what determines 'the most important dragons', anyway? Why should that be the limiting factor?

[Quintafeira12]

I too am against limiting the ascended dragons specially if more ascended versions kept getting added to the site, even though I know TJ wouldn't let the limit be lower than the total ascended breeds.

 

Why would we even limit the ascended? To prevent people from taking advantage of the ascension effects on dragons, such as heightened egg number per breed? We haven't even decided if there would be such a bonus, and I don't see anything "unfair" going towards players with lots of ascended dragons without those. Isn't it more "unfair" to say that people should only ascend the most important dragons based on a whim?

 

And that's the problem with where I'm standing on this step of the issue. I do agree with the idea that ascended dragons are dragons in their "prime", and thus, making them have a bonus is somewhat logical. Yet, I don't think it's quite right to give people the chance to form an army of ascended just for these bonuses. Oh yes, it would happen.

 

If it depended on me, I'd just allow any number of dragons to ascend, but not give them anything special for it. The pretty sprite is already itself a huge reward, and that was the whole point of the stage in first place, was it not? Well, that is, except if the special bonus ended up itself having a limit. For example, a certain breed, when ascended would be able to use an ability like Summon's, but there would only be one of those new dragons allowed per scroll.

[Fuzzbucket]

If it depended on me, I'd just allow any number of dragons to ascend, but not give them anything special for it. The pretty sprite is already itself a huge reward, and that was the whole point of the stage in first place, was it not?

^this^

[Cir_C]

The only reason there would need to be a limit, in my opinion, is to balance out the benefits of Ascending a dragon. However, if it just a cool sprite, then there should be no reason to make a limit on ascending a dragon. That is my reasoning to having a limit.

[Nogard145]

I also wouldn't mind their being just a sprite, but I still like the idea of adding benefits. So is it possible to set a limit to the benefits but not the ascension forms? Like make it a chance that when your dragon ascends to gains the benefits (a flat rate of chance not based on breed) and only set limit to the number of dragons that have the benefit but allow but have unlimited ascensions.

 

Like lets say the limit to the number of dragons with benefits is 12. So out of 20 ascended dragons 10 gain the benefits and then 5 more ascend and 2 gain benefits. After the last two no matter how many more you ascend they will not gain benefits.

 

Of course this might be too complicated. It's just an idea.

[KageSora]

3) The maximum limit should be there so that way people who have huge amounts of dragons don't get more than their fair share. I think a dozen is fair, am fine with anything above 6, and am not fine with anything above 18. People should only be ascending their most important dragons, not all of their eligible dragons for the heck of it.

Well, while we're at it, let's put a cap on the number of rares people can have--let's say, 2 per breed as is in line with the holidays (and let's enforce a 2-only limit on Halloweens, too!). I mean, it's hardly right that somebody can have upwards of 50 golds, when some people don't even have any! They shouldn't be allowed to have that much, it's just not fair to others! I mean, if they have an army of golds, they can breed several each day and never have to have all their dragons on cooldown! They can take advantage of the numbers they have and it's just plain unfair to people who don't have that many!

 

Oh! And we should put a cap on the number of dragons with a BSA you can have! I mean, it's hardly fair that people can have an army of BSA-capable dragons, enough to be never on cooldown, and other people can't have that--why, they might feel like they absolutely have to have an army of them to properly play!

 

 

I understand wanting to prevent people from hoarding an army of them so they don't abuse the benefits.

 

HOWEVER, we don't have anything in place to prevent people from amassing enough Red dragons to be able to incubate every single egg they have, and never have to wait on a cooldown. We don't have anything to prevent people from amassing a hoard or Pinks to be able to influence everything without a cooldown wait, or a mass of Magi to be able to do 30 trades/gifts a day and never be on cooldown, or to prevent people from amassing so many rares they can breed several pairs each day and never have a day where they have less than 3 pairs able to breed at any given time. Or we don't have anything in place to prevent people from hoarding Purples so they can use fertility 50 times a day and never once have a cooldown problem. Why, then, should we have a limit on the ascendeds--people already hoard BSA dragons, or highly desirable breeders, and can take advantage of that.

 

Now, I could understand if there was a significant bonus for each ascended. Then, I'd prefer what Nogard145 suggested, where you get X number of benefit-dragons, and you can still ascend however many you want. But I don't think that ascended dragons should have a benefit that great. Sure, it makes sense--but nobody should feel forced to ascend just to get said benefits.

 

So, the key would be to make the benefits good enough to be worth bothering to code, but toned down enough that people wouldn't feel they had to ascend.

 

 

The problem with this is that you have no control over what other people do and it could destroy a linage.

Well, then, we ought to do away with scroll-burning and the kill function--after all, people can mess up a lineage by getting their scroll burned or by killing their dragons. :| The thing is, we already have things in place that can screw over lineages. The lineage is nice, but unless it's self-contained on your scroll, you really have no right to complain when somebody does something to THEIR dragons that messes it up.

 

I'm sure lineage projects could include a "No ascending dragons in the lineage" oath or something for people to follow.

Edited June 13, 2011 by KageSora

[HeatherMarie]

*claps at KageSora's post*

 

Personally I'd prefer no "benefits" to Ascension... The benefit is the beautiful sprite.

[Quintafeira12]

Incidentally, the poll on giving the ascended benefits has 15 answers in favor, 15 against and 5 that like it either ways. Plus 3 ones that would even downgrade the ascended's abilities under that of a regular dragon's.

 

I don't see any fundamental difference between the two Yes and No answers, and we're still a long way from an acceptable amount of votes, specially between the No answers, but it's interesting to point out that, from initial voting, we're basically with a draw. I guess everyone just has strong feelings towards either ways.

[Unscrupulous Dragon Trainer]

I am slightly bothered that the poll didn't have anything opposed to the idea of Ascend overall. I think that's got to bias the results.

[Fengari]

I've been thinking about this some more and I think a good way to get the 'at the peak of their potential' thing without it being too much would be that ascended dragons are automatically fertilised. So they would get the same benefit to breeding as a dragon that has been fertilised, without needing to use a purple's BSA for it.

 

It would be a slight benefit, but in my opinion nothing that would 'force' people to ascend every dragon they can, because there is another way to get the same benefit.

 

To be clear: this effect and fertilise would not stack, it would just be useless to use a purple's BSA on an ascended dragon.

 

@Unscrupulous Dragon Trainer: this thread has been going for a while, with quite a few polls following each other, the first one having the option to oppose to the idea. There were only about 11% of the people who voted who thought dragons shouldn't ascend.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Fengari

[olympe]

I'm torn about it. On the one hand, benefits for ascended dragons would make sense, on the other hand, a beautiful sprite is all the incentive for ascension that I feel is needed under the circumstances.

 

Still, I'd be all for benefits if they are coupled with a penalty of some sort. For example, when breeding an ascended dragon, you could have a 20% higher chance of producing an egg, but at the same time have a cooldown of 10 days instead of a week. (Or a 50% higher chance of producing an egg, but twice the cooldown.) The thoughts behind this are quite simple: Ascended dragons are at their prime, making them perfect breeding stock (and highly fertile). However, they might be busy with more advanced stuff (like meditating or learning magic or running their herd or whatever), and will have less time available for reproduction.

 

Or for BSAs, I wouldn't mind seeing improved BSAs, but at a cost. Like an influence with guaranteed success, but twice the cooldown. Or an incubate that takes off 1.5 days, but has a 14 day cooldown. Things like that.

[Dr. Paine]

I wouldn't be opposed to increased cooldowns if better breeding/BSAs were added.

[Quintafeira12]

@Unscrupulous Dragon Trainer: this thread has been going for a while, with quite a few polls following each other, the first one having the option to oppose to the idea. There were only about 11% of the people who voted who thought dragons shouldn't ascend.

Not to mention the latter polls have been respecting their choice in some way. The current poll has both a option where the users who want the ascended to not let the rest be marginalized (No; they should say the same for those that don't want them.) and a option for people who don't want ascended and don't feel like their input is relevant (I don't care. Either is fine.).

 

Still, Dragon Trainer has a point on something: That those people are voting anyways and weighing the poll just slightly towards a side. Some people who don't want ascended might be voting the no benefits / no abilities answers so they wouldn't be treated unfairly. To be honest, their votes count as well on this subject. I don't see why those people's opinions would be ignored or considered "out of the interest group".

 

But, as Kage Sora made point above, I don't see why would someone feel there's an injustice happening when not taking advantage of the benefits would be their own choice. Getting Ascended dragons and would be a privilege, and you choose to have it or not. Just because you didn't get the benefit because you chose to not to take the privilege, doesn't not make the situation unfair towards you. Everyone is responsible for their own actions' consequences, and if the idea of ascension is just THAT disgusting, then consider the underlying bonus as a reward for making a little sacrifice.

 

But we can't really count those votes, can we?

[Obscure_Trash]

I am slightly bothered that the poll didn't have anything opposed to the idea of Ascend overall. I think that's got to bias the results.

This is partly because I included a "no ascending" option in the first poll, and I'd like to get the opinions of people who don't want to ascend on how ascending would work. This way if ascending does happen, we've hopefully fleshed out something that even people who don't want ascension can hopefully get something they can live with, if TJ decides to go with that input. :3

[Classycal]

Somebody needs to tell me what an ascended dragon is before I can intelligently comment...

 

Edit: Never mind. What I thought was the first post, I now see was not the first post. So I'm off to read it.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Classycal

[KageSora]

I am slightly bothered that the poll didn't have anything opposed to the idea of Ascend overall.  I think that's got to bias the results.

Would you mind explaining what, exactly, you oppose about it? As proposed, it would not be something you were forced to do... After all, if you can tell us why you're against it, we can have a better discussion to, as Sock said, find a way to make it at least tolerable to the majority of people. :3

 

 

 

Still, I'd be all for benefits if they are coupled with a penalty of some sort. For example, when breeding an ascended dragon, you could have a 20% higher chance of producing an egg, but at the same time have a cooldown of 10 days instead of a week. (Or a 50% higher chance of producing an egg, but twice the cooldown.) The thoughts behind this are quite simple: Ascended dragons are at their prime, making them perfect breeding stock (and highly fertile). However, they might be busy with more advanced stuff (like meditating or learning magic or running their herd or whatever), and will have less time available for reproduction.

 

Or for BSAs, I wouldn't mind seeing improved BSAs, but at a cost. Like an influence with guaranteed success, but twice the cooldown. Or an incubate that takes off 1.5 days, but has a 14 day cooldown. Things like that.

That makes sense, about the breeding thing.

 

Not so much for the double cool down on Influence--I mean, the odds of it working are already very high, so you're getting just a tiny bit of a benefit with a massive penalty, it's not very balanced. And isn't Incubate already a 2-week cooldown?

 

 

Personally, I think the issue of a 'boost' could be solved by still giving the benefit of a day or two off the cooldown time, perhaps more for those that have a longer cooldown. You don't get a boost in power/odds of getting stuff, but you do get a bit of a benefit. Not enough to force people to ascend, though.

[olympe]

Sorry, you're right. Of course, the cooldown for incubate is 14 days right now. So, according to my proposal, I'd say a cooldown of 21 to 28 days would be appropriate.

 

Re influence, you might be right, but I just had another influence fail, so the idea seemed like a good one to me. For cases where an influence is really needed...

[Aeriaa]

I have to say, I love this idea.

I know in D&D "Great Wyrms" (the equivalent to an Ascended Dragon on DC) are usually great mates, but rarely do so due to their age. They CAN make young, but often enough don't because they're preoccupied with their own things... at least, that was what the Draconomicon said in regards to the metallic dragons (good alignment). P: I'd love to see in increased fertility for the dragon where Fertility wouldn't apply to them/be able to stack because... really... the younger dragon WOULD be weaker than the elder dragon, so the magic wouldn't really do anything that the ascended one couldn't do for itself already. Just using some D&D logic, anyways.

 

Also the idea of taking time away from cooldowns would be fair, imo. (Whichever one, its all fairly epic). ESPECIALLY on incubate. Thats the bane of my existence. lol!

[Kila]

Well, while we're at it, let's put a cap on the number of rares people can have--let's say, 2 per breed as is in line with the holidays (and let's enforce a 2-only limit on Halloweens, too!). I mean, it's hardly right that somebody can have upwards of 50 golds, when some people don't even have any! They shouldn't be allowed to have that much, it's just not fair to others! I mean, if they have an army of golds, they can breed several each day and never have to have all their dragons on cooldown! They can take advantage of the numbers they have and it's just plain unfair to people who don't have that many!

 

Oh! And we should put a cap on the number of dragons with a BSA you can have! I mean, it's hardly fair that people can have an army of BSA-capable dragons, enough to be never on cooldown, and other people can't have that--why, they might feel like they absolutely have to have an army of them to properly play!

 

 

I understand wanting to prevent people from hoarding an army of them so they don't abuse the benefits.

 

HOWEVER, we don't have anything in place to prevent people from amassing enough Red dragons to be able to incubate every single egg they have, and never have to wait on a cooldown. We don't have anything to prevent people from amassing a hoard or Pinks to be able to influence everything without a cooldown wait, or a mass of Magi to be able to do 30 trades/gifts a day and never be on cooldown, or to prevent people from amassing so many rares they can breed several pairs each day and never have a day where they have less than 3 pairs able to breed at any given time. Or we don't have anything in place to prevent people from hoarding Purples so they can use fertility 50 times a day and never once have a cooldown problem. Why, then, should we have a limit on the ascendeds--people already hoard BSA dragons, or highly desirable breeders, and can take advantage of that.

 

Now, I could understand if there was a significant bonus for each ascended. Then, I'd prefer what Nogard145 suggested, where you get X number of benefit-dragons, and you can still ascend however many you want. But I don't think that ascended dragons should have a benefit that great. Sure, it makes sense--but nobody should feel forced to ascend just to get said benefits.

 

So, the key would be to make the benefits good enough to be worth bothering to code, but toned down enough that people wouldn't feel they had to ascend.

 

 

 

Well, then, we ought to do away with scroll-burning and the kill function--after all, people can mess up a lineage by getting their scroll burned or by killing their dragons. :| The thing is, we already have things in place that can screw over lineages. The lineage is nice, but unless it's self-contained on your scroll, you really have no right to complain when somebody does something to THEIR dragons that messes it up.

 

I'm sure lineage projects could include a "No ascending dragons in the lineage" oath or something for people to follow.

First of all, ilu Kage. I'd clap for you, but my hands are killing me.

 

Whether we give Ascendeds enhanced BSA's or not there will always be those people who have no dragons with any BSA's whatsoever and those who opt not to Acend. Is it fair that I have a ton of Reds and Pinks while they have none? No. But does that mean we should get rid of BSA's altogether? Of course not. That's silly. I think a marginal increase of 10-15% chance of success (which most, if not all BSA's, are almost always effective) would suffice. I really don't see why people are so against increased chances when most BSA's are already super effective. I've never had an incubate fail. I've never had an Influence fail because I know the timing.. And that's with normal odds.

 

Yes, there will be those people who will want to Ascend every one of their dragons. But they're their dragons. They can do whatever they want with them. There will be others, like me, who will only ascend one or two of each breed. We can't just assume everyone will HOMG ABUSE THE SYSTEM.

 

Same goes for being against Ascension just because it would "ruin lineages". If they're not on your scroll, you have no say in what happens to them. Sorry, but that's life in the big bad city. No one can tell me how I should be treating my solitare cards, so don't tell others what they can/can't do with their dragons.

 

I'm neutral on giving Ascendeds enhanced BSA's. Doesn't matter to me either way if they do or don't. But I do like the idea of taking off some cooldown time, rather than increasing their chances of working. As long as they can breed, I'll be happy as a clam.

[Quintafeira12]

As long as they can breed, I'll be happy as a clam.

Read it all. But I just want to comment on that particular part.

 

Regardless of the voting, enhanced abilities, enhanced breeding and such, it would indeed be best to allow ascended to breed. Not because of preference, but because of backlash

 

If we don't then the people saying lineages are ruined will have an actual reason to claim as such when the last heir to a lineage decides to ascend as well.

[olympe]

Ditto what Kila said. *starts clapping for Kage*

[Kila]

Read it all. But I just want to comment on that particular part.

 

Regardless of the voting, enhanced abilities, enhanced breeding and such, it would indeed be best to allow ascended to breed. Not because of preference, but because of backlash

 

If we don't then the people saying lineages are ruined will have an actual reason to claim as such when the last heir to a lineage decides to ascend as well.

I just want them to be breedable because I plan on ascending the firsts of every breed. If I couldn't breed Blaze (my first Red) and Sheen (my first Gold), I'd be pissed, because they happen to be one of my favorites dragon pairs on my scroll.

 

/selfish

[Princess Artemis]

Is it fair that I have a ton of Reds and Pinks while they have none? No.

Sorry, I just really have to nitpick this.

 

Yes, it is fair. Did you get your reds and pinks honestly and without injustice? Did you get them properly under the rules of the game? There is nothing, absolutely nothing, unfair about having lots of reds and pinks provided you didn't get them by cheating. Any suggestion that a new person is at an unfair disadvantage to you is to suggest an infant is at an unfair disadvantage to an older person in terms of what can only be gained by living. This is clearly untrue--all there is for it is to play. As for people who choose not to collect them, it is not unfair of you to have more of something they can have but don't want.

 

As far as the topic goes, I think ascended dragons should be able to breed. Anything else seems like it would be a pointless extra, but I wouldn't be fussed if they were added. I assume the idea is not to 'ascend' dragons onto their deathbeds, but to 'ascend' them into a venerable age of wisdom and power. That ought to mean they can still breed.