Ascension

[Dr. Paine]

As I stated before, I don't want a RNG to choose which of my dragons can ascend. I have specific dragons on my scroll that I want to ascend; the first dragons I got for each breed. They've been around the longest, and for them to not reach their full potential is a load of bull in my mind.

-raises hand-

 

There are a few dragons I want to ascend, and some I would never want to let ascend. I want to be the one to decide it, not the Random Number gods.

[quadibloc]

I would NOT be looking at ascension because I am bored.

Yes, but one of the benefits of ascension would be that people would now have a reason to get four, not just two, of every common dragon on their scroll.

 

Or maybe six or seven, if they collect frozen hatchies too.

[Fuzzbucket]

Not for me, it wouldn't.... I am certainly not going to go after every single sprite that exists. I have a life

[skinst]

As I stated before, I don't want a RNG to choose which of my dragons can ascend. I have specific dragons on my scroll that I want to ascend; the first dragons I got for each breed. They've been around the longest, and for them to not reach their full potential is a load of bull in my mind.

 

I'm sure others feel the same.

*raises hand too*

 

I think when you take choice away from the users, it makes things very frustrating.

[HeatherMarie]

Completely agree. *I* want to choose which dragons to attempt to Ascend, and I wouldn't want some RNG saying that my chosen dragon will never Ascend.

 

And, yeah, definite no to Ascend being view-based. Adults don't get views. So we'd be having hundreds of users going "well I raised this adult, it's old enough, and I can't Ascend it because of some arbitrary view-count that I had no idea I was supposed to get back when it was growing up?!" No thanks.

[~!~]

"What does ascension mean to you?"

 

I'd say it means becoming really awesome. Possibly that comes with age, because the more experience you have the more likely you are to do awesome things, which is why I'd support a higher chance of success for ascension as the dragon gets older.

 

An "ascended" human, I guess, would be someone like Mozart, MLK, Gandhi, etc. People who did really awesome stuff. An ascended dragon is one that all the other dragons have heard of, because his accomplishments or even just his skills are so well-known (I think of dragons as less social than humans, so maybe not world-renown like those examples I gave).

 

But not enhanced BSAs. Elders are above things like that - seriously.

That makes it sound like ascended dragons should lose their BSAs. If they're "above things like that," why would they even still do them?

 

The reason I like enhanced BSAs is because an ascended dragon is by definition (mine, anyway) better at doing things than a non-ascended dragon. A Red dragon will be better at doing Red dragon things, such as flying, breathing fire, and kidnapping princesses. Why not better at Incubating too?

[Fuzzbucket]

"What does ascension mean to you?"

 

I'd say it means becoming really awesome. Possibly that comes with age, because the more experience you have the more likely you are to do awesome things, which is why I'd support a higher chance of success for ascension as the dragon gets older.

 

An "ascended" human, I guess, would be someone like Mozart, MLK, Gandhi, etc. People who did really awesome stuff. An ascended dragon is one that all the other dragons have heard of, because his accomplishments or even just his skills are so well-known (I think of dragons as less social than humans, so maybe not world-renown like those examples I gave).

 

 

That makes it sound like ascended dragons should lose their BSAs. If they're "above things like that," why would they even still do them?

 

The reason I like enhanced BSAs is because an ascended dragon is by definition (mine, anyway) better at doing things than a non-ascended dragon. A Red dragon will be better at doing Red dragon things, such as flying, breathing fire, and kidnapping princesses. Why not better at Incubating too?

Fair cop. But I still wouldn't go for enhancing them...

 

Actually - how would you ? Incubate by TWO days - OK, that works - but how can you EXTRA influence gender ?

 

Maybe a shorter cooldown because they are so amazing that their power builds up again sooner ? That would make sense even to me.

[~!~]

Maybe a shorter cooldown because they are so amazing that their power builds up again sooner ? That would make sense even to me.

Not bad. I was thinking that for Influence and Bite, there could just be a smaller fail rate.

[Fuzzbucket]

Well that's the thing. I have never had a failed influence....

 

And I thought people in this thread had shot down the Ascendable Vampire ?

[~!~]

Well that's the thing. I have never had a failed influence....

 

And I thought people in this thread had shot down the Ascendable Vampire ?

Aww...

 

I had thought the "no ascending Holidays" was because of the 2-per-scroll limit, rather than just because they're Holiday dragons.

[Fuzzbucket]

I thought that someone had actually said of course not vampires because they are evil.. or something !

 

I'd actually love an ascended vamp or 6.... vamps are so awesome !

 

I think it was actually the no nonbreedables they were classed under, come to think.

Edited April 10, 2011 by fuzzbucket

[Kila]

I thought that someone had actually said of course not vampires because they are evil.. or something !

 

I'd actually love an ascended vamp or 6.... vamps are so awesome !

 

I think it was actually the no nonbreedables they were classed under, come to think.

All holiday dragons won't Ascend, Halloween ones included.

[mihali62]

any idea when ascension will happen ? I'm fairly new to this game but ascension would add something interesting for the players

[quadibloc]

An "ascended" human, I guess, would be someone like Mozart, MLK, Gandhi, etc.  People who did really awesome stuff.  An ascended dragon is one that all the other dragons have heard of, because his accomplishments or even just his skills are so well-known (I think of dragons as less social than humans, so maybe not world-renown like those examples I gave).

To the extent that some people think this is what "ascended" should mean, that would seem to imply that an RNG saying some dragons can't ascend is unavoidable. (I called that "Venerable" in my complicated proposal.)

 

Others see it differently, as something that happens to every dragon when it reaches its prime. (I called that "Ancient".)

 

At the time, I was advancing this proposal - obviously too much work for TJ and the spriters - just as an illustration to get people thinking. But now I'm wondering. If a lot of people do think that the Venerable model is the right one, but more people see it as Ancient - so Ancient gets implemented first...

 

then those poor spriters would, after making the most amazingly wonderful sprite they possibly could for all the dragons, end up going back to the drawing board, and they would have to top that!

 

Leaving out the molting phase and the need for views - that part was added in simply to illustrate how ascension could be taken to its ultimate limit, and to raise other questions - maybe my elaborate idea has a point after all.

 

Every dragon can become Ancient, even if it takes a few tries. That sprite, though, isn't the "ascended" sprite currently in development, it's only one of the other awesome sprites that was tried as a possibility and then put aside for a better one. Not much extra work for the spriters, only poor TJ who would have to program it.

 

Not every dragon gets to be Venerable. That's the special status of being a dragon among dragons. So both visions of ascension are addressed.

 

But you really want a certain dragon to have the Venerable sprite? Or there's another meaning of "ascended" we haven't addressed? That's where my "Ascended" comes in. When dragons go to Heaven, they will clearly become perfect in every way, so just because a dragon, while on Earth, couldn't be "like Mozart, MLK, Gandhi", that doesn't mean it won't get what it takes Up There.

 

Great news for the spriters, this is just a semi-transparent recolor of the normal ascended sprite. Bad news for the players: in this case, the dragon has gone to "a fine and quiet place", so it will not be able to breed.

 

Sure, in some ways this is an awful idea, but if the rival visions of ascension can't be reconciled, it avoids them being at risk of being asked to do even better than what is going to be their amazing best. Because I think the level of objection to being told what to do by an RNG is strong enough that doing Venerable first, and then doing Ancient later, which would be the path that goes easy on the spriters, is very unlikely.

 

Thus, while I like the Venerable model for flavor reasons, if instead Ascended goes with Ancient, as I expect it to, future expansion should be forsworn. Out of kindness to the spriters.

 

EDIT: Here's an alternative idea that just involves one kind of ascended dragon, and thus one new sprite, but lets ascended dragons be really special without arbitrarily excluding dragons at random from ascending.

 

First, there's a limit on ascension. Not only does a dragon have to be older to ascend, but you need to have a certain number - not really high, say somewhere from three to five - dragons of the same breed on your scroll that haven't ascended for each ascended dragon you have (after the first one, perhaps even).

 

Second, ascension isn't an action on the part of the dragon itself. Instead, you need to have, say, a Magi, a White, and some other dragon - perhaps a Nebula, or a Sunsong or a Skywing - and when these three dragons are ready and past their cooldown, they can join in the Ascend action, and target the dragon on your scroll that you want to have ascend. So it's a cross between Summon and Incubate/Influence as it were.

 

Incidentally, Ascended dragons of those breeds can ascend other dragons too, and their success rate is higher.

Edited April 10, 2011 by quadibloc

[KageSora]

When dragons go to Heaven, they will clearly become perfect in every way, so just because a dragon, while on Earth, couldn't be "like Mozart, MLK, Gandhi", that doesn't mean it won't get what it takes Up There.

 

Great news for the spriters, this is just a semi-transparent recolor of the normal ascended sprite. Bad news for the players: in this case, the dragon has gone to "a fine and quiet place", so it will not be able to breed.

 

Sure, in some ways this is an awful idea, but if the rival visions of ascension can't be reconciled, it avoids them being at risk of being asked to do even better than what is going to be their amazing best. Because I think the level of objection to being told what to do by an RNG is strong enough that doing Venerable first, and then doing Ancient later, which would be the path that goes easy on the spriters, is very unlikely.

 

Thus, while I like the Venerable model for flavor reasons, if instead Ascended goes with Ancient, as I expect it to, future expansion should be forsworn. Out of kindness to the spriters.

 

EDIT: Here's an alternative idea that just involves one kind of ascended dragon, and thus one new sprite, but lets ascended dragons be really special without arbitrarily excluding dragons at random from ascending.

 

First, there's a limit on ascension. Not only does a dragon have to be older to ascend, but you need to have a certain number - not really high, say somewhere from three to five - dragons of the same breed on your scroll that haven't ascended for each ascended dragon you have (after the first one, perhaps even).

 

Second, ascension isn't an action on the part of the dragon itself. Instead, you need to have, say, a Magi, a White, and some other dragon - perhaps a Nebula, or a Sunsong or a Skywing - and when these three dragons are ready and past their cooldown, they can join in the Ascend action, and target the dragon on your scroll that you want to have ascend. So it's a cross between Summon and Incubate/Influence as it were.

 

Incidentally, Ascended dragons of those breeds can ascend other dragons too, and their success rate is higher.

If dragons are immortal, why would they become a spirit (unless they were a spirit-type dragon originally)? I guess it works if you mean simply they move on to another plane of existence that is higher than the physical world.

 

 

I personally think the whole rest of that sounds too complicated myself. Keep it simple: Dragon A meets the requirements, so Dragon A gets the option to try. Dragon A succeeds, end of story. Or, Dragon A fails, has a cooldown, and tries again. Repeat until Dragon A succeeds.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes ! Too complicated is - well, too complicated !

[Dr. Paine]

-snip-

This is needlessly complicated, and would greatly reduce the chances of it getting accepted.

 

Ascension should be one stage, one action, one sprite, and fairly easy to achieve, from a gameplay perspective. Leave it up to the scroll owner to decide how many ascend, and which do, it's their story. That's how I feel, anyway.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Dr. Paine

[Blood-Otherium]

If dragons are immortal, why would they become a spirit (unless they were a spirit-type dragon originally)? I guess it works if you mean simply they move on to another plane of existence that is higher than the physical world.

 

 

I personally think the whole rest of that sounds too complicated myself. Keep it simple: Dragon A meets the requirements, so Dragon A gets the option to try. Dragon A succeeds, end of story. Or, Dragon A fails, has a cooldown, and tries again. Repeat until Dragon A succeeds.

This.

 

Dragon Cave isn't a very complicated game, so don't make it into one. Besides, do you think younger players would be able to compltetely understand/pay attention to something that's overly complicated?

[Kila]

This is needlessly complicated, and would greatly reduce the chances of it getting accepted.

 

Ascension should be one stage, one action, one sprite, and fairly easy to achieve, from a gameplay perspective. Leave it up to the scroll owner to decide how many ascend, and which do, it's their story. That's how I feel, anyway.

Ditto-ing KageSora and Paine here.

 

When I say simplicity is a good thing, I mean it. It's something I've learned through my three+ years of being deeply involved with this site and its workings.

[Fengari]

Ascension should be one stage, one action, one sprite, and fairly easy to achieve, from a gameplay perspective. Leave it up to the scroll owner to decide how many ascend, and which do, it's their story. That's how I feel, anyway.

This.

 

I don't want the game to decide for me which dragon gets to ascend and which doesn't, because that might clash with the descriptions of my dragons (what if the dragon I described as 'very wise, every dragons looks up to it, ...' won't ascend?)

 

I was originally for a limit of some kind (max per breed, or max per time like with freezing) to accentuate it's 'specialness', but I have no problems with people wanting to be able to ascend more, so there's really no need.

 

If you can choose which ones ascend (and retry if it fails) and there's no limits, and no benefits (BSA), everyone can use it the way they feel fits with how they see it. I someone thinks every dragon should be able to become old and wise enough to ascend eventually (the 'ancient' option) they can go ahead and ascend every dragon that meets the requirements, if someone feels it is about being very special, they can choose which of their dragons 'deserve' the title and ascend only those. No need for the game to dictate exactly what it means, most people here have enough imagination to fill in the dots themselves.

[Fuzzbucket]

I do think it shouldn't succeed EVERY time, though. Simply being old does not in itself make you worthy. I am 66 and I know this... *gets out custard pies to be very very silly*

[Kirbyburn]

Well maybe we should just go with the polls for now, and come back to this later.

[ArynChris]

Haven't looked into this since the original thread. I still approve of ascended dragons, primarily because some of the ascended sprites are just awesome beyond all belief. Yes, that really is my only reason.

 

I do have a question. What is this about increasing fail rate? If the idea is that ascended is the same dragon but older, wouldn't that be a decreasing fail rate as the dragon gets older? Shouldn't a dragon that's 2 years old be more likely to ascend than a dragon that's only 6 months old, even if it previously failed to ascend?

 

^That just confuses me, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding what y'all mean by "increasing fail rate"...

[Kirbyburn]

Haven't looked into this since the original thread. I still approve of ascended dragons, primarily because some of the ascended sprites are just awesome beyond all belief. Yes, that really is my only reason.

 

I do have a question. What is this about increasing fail rate? If the idea is that ascended is the same dragon but older, wouldn't that be a decreasing fail rate as the dragon gets older? Shouldn't a dragon that's 2 years old be more likely to ascend than a dragon that's only 6 months old, even if it previously failed to ascend?

 

^That just confuses me, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding what y'all mean by "increasing fail rate"...

I didn't see anything about an increasing quote. Which post was it?

[Fuzzbucket]

I didn't see anything about an increasing quote. Which post was it?

It's one of the poll options, and I didn't get it either.