Ascension

[Renorei]

It's not unfair, just easily misunderstood.

Yeah, I sort of agree. We just have to realize that with a poll like this you can't just look at which option has the most votes and call it a winner. The option to have no perk at all is winning by a landslide, but 65% of people voted for some type of perk. They simply voted for which perk was their favorite out of all the perks. So all the people who favor perks are distributing their votes over multiple different options, whereas people who want no perks only have one option to vote for. If you asked someone who voted for one the less popular perks if they would rather have a different perk or no perk at all, I think they'd just choose to have a different perk.

 

It's sorta like, at the MTV VMAs, if there are 5 artists in the "Best New Artist" category and 4 of them are rappers and one of them is a rocker, the rocker is probably going to win, because people who prefer rap are going to spread their votes around over the 4 rappers, whereas people who like rock are all going to vote for the one artist. But if you pitted the most popular rapper against the most popular rocker, the rapper might win.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Renorei

[KageSora]

I think it'd be good to change the poll for now--we can come back to this one once it's decided if we want perks or not.

 

Though, I suppose leaving it like this is fine, since it's not that hard to figure out if no perk is winning or not. And at the moment, it's losing with only 33% of the total votes.

Edited September 7, 2011 by KageSora

[Kila]

Again, KISS.

 

The poll should be something along the lines of "Should Ascended Dragons have the perks discussed in the thread? Yes or No?"

 

Seriously, keeping it yes or no will keep it simple. If perks wins, we can then hash out what perks we want (but I'm still against perk because it complicates things and Ascension was never meant to give dragons more in-game power, but I digress...).

[Fuzzbucket]

I think it'd be good to change the poll for now--we can come back to this one once it's decided if we want perks or not.

 

Though, I suppose leaving it like this is fine, since it's not that hard to figure out if no perk is winning or not. And at the moment, it's losing with only 33% of the total votes.

Well, it would. The option isn't THAT obvious; I was looking for one that said no perks at all....

 

And I agree with Kila - who was there when the concept was invented ! The sprite was what it was for, was all.

[Kirbyburn]

In my opinion, the poll at this moment just had a little bit too many options. I agree with the yes or no. Then if its a yes, we bring out this poll.

[Obscure_Trash]

We already did that.

 

Should ascended dragons have upped BSA's/breeding/anything (could just be one or more of these - please state)?

Yes; they are stronger, so it makes sense. [ 98 ] [46.23%]

Yes; I would like that. [ 19 ] [8.96%]

I don't know/I can't decide. [ 7 ] [3.30%]

I don't care. Either is fine. [ 28 ] [13.21%]

No; that's not fair. [ 14 ] [6.60%]

No; they should say the same for those that don't want them. [ 35 ] [16.51%]

They shouldn't even be able to breed/use BSA's/whatnot at this stage. [ 11 ] [5.19%]

Total Votes: 212

[KageSora]

Huh, so perks did win out with that other poll, then.

 

But the current poll seems kind of like just the same thing, then. If the majority said they wanted perks, shouldn't this poll ONLY deal with perks?

 

"Just the sprite" is basically "no perks" because the nice new sprite is the default, right? The basic idea was to give them a new sprite, and some additional perk began being discussed after that idea. If more people said they wanted some kind of perk it would have been in addition to the sprite, right?

 

 

Or are we now just re-taking the same idea with this new poll, to see if the preference for perks/no perks has changed? And so far, some kind of perk is still winning in preference. /little bit confused

Edited September 13, 2011 by KageSora

[Obscure_Trash]

I debated for a while about putting no perks in this poll or not, because of how I did the last poll, but because it seemed a lot of people changed their mind after Kila argued KISS, I added it, so those people could reflect their new view. Unless people would rather I just re-did the last poll?

Which is why I've been asking about restarting the old poll. xD

[KageSora]

Oh, duh. I somehow missed that part. Oops. /failing at reading

[Harley Quinn hyenaholic]

You do realise this would require more sprites and coding?

[Fuzzbucket]

You do realise this would require more sprites and coding?

How so ? Those that were intended to ascend - many of them, if not all, already have sprites ready to roll. As stated all the way up this thread.

 

Those whose spriters didn't want them to won't be able to.

 

Coding for added BSAs etc should be easy enough to TJ - just like adding any other BSA. But I wish we wouldn't get those ! The sprites are all I'd want - and I don't mind if they never happen - except for the spriters who took the trouble to make them !

[Obscure_Trash]

You do realise this would require more sprites and coding?

Yes. And?

[auroshen]

Do they have a different description?

Also, perks other than a sprite, i don't think it's necessary.

[Kila]

Nope. Ascended dragons just get a spiffier sprite. Unless that changed when I left.

[DarkEternity]

You do realise this would require more sprites and coding?

From what I remember, there were plenty of sprites already done.

Blacks, waters, :s

[MisunderstoodDreamer]

I would like to give you my personal thoughts on the Ascension thing.

I just want to contribute with some reflections, as the matter is quite tangled but, knowing that it's also delicate, I want specify that mine are just personal thoughts about Ascension and I'll not be angry for having critics at all, we are here to talk about this matter and its problems

 

Sorry for writing a so long post, but it's my first post in this thread (and I voted here for the first time). And I'm sorry if I could talk about something that was already excluded, but I haven't the time to read all the thread (I really hope that the OP is updated ), I'll read it all when I'll have some free time, I promise.

 

 

-The only solution that could avoid to ruin perfect lineages (such as breeding projects and big even-gens) if an ancestor's owner suddendly decide to ascend it seems to me enabling ascension only for CB dragons that were never bred: in this way no dragons will have an ascended offspring or parent. I know that there isn't a good motivation for this (Could "CBs can because they are the purest dragons" be a good motivation?) but I really think that projects runners and users that got nice lineaged eggs (in threads or AP) can't PM to everyone owns an ancestor and say "Please, don't ascend that dragon or you'll ruine my dragon's lineage", it would be the same thing as PMing for getting back autoabandoned eggs (my scroll, my business) and would create problems between users.

I would also prefer if the Ascended dragons become unbreedable.

 

-About the Ascension time, if you gather dragon's lifetime infos and you do a little math you'll see that:

Newborn dragons became adults in 3 days, usually gendering around 5 days and 16/15 hours. As you can read in every adult dragon's description, gendering equals to adolescence and between a dragon's adolescence and maturing passes 2 years (our 1 day and an half, approximately), so hatching -> maturing = 4 years (3 days). If we assume that a dragon could ascende when it is around 100 years old, we have 96 days (our time) = 128 years (dragon time) so, according to this, the correct option would be three months. If we choose the six months option, it would mean that a dragon can ascend when it's around 200 years old (192 days = 256 years). I prefer 3 months (I think a century would be enough for a dragon to maturate) and a year (384 days = 512 years) seems too much for me, to be honest.

 

-About failure, I don't see a matter for it. If a dragon is matured enough to be ready to ascend, why should it fail?

 

-About limit, I wouldn't put a time limit, but a per breed limit. My thought is that 2 ascended dragons for each breed is enough, I don't like too much the idea that we could ascend all the dragons that are on our scroll. If the Alts will ascend into the same form as Normal dragons, this number will be also good to have an Ascended pair for each breed (or only one, for those that collect only one sprite); btw, if the Alts could gain an own ascended form, they should be enabled to get a pair of Ascended too.

 

-About BSA, I really support increasing the success ratio and shorten the cooldown, as they become more powerful and leaving things like a normal dragon wouldn't have sense.

[Shanthaia]

-The only solution that could avoid to ruin perfect lineages (such as breeding projects and big even-gens) if an ancestor's owner suddendly decide to ascend it seems to me enabling ascension only for CB dragons that were never bred: in this way no dragons will have an ascended offspring or parent. I know that there isn't a good motivation for this (Could "CBs can because they are the purest dragons" be a good motivation?) but I really think that projects runners and users that got nice lineaged eggs (in threads or AP) can't PM to everyone owns an ancestor and say "Please, don't ascend that dragon or you'll ruine my dragon's lineage", it would be the same thing as PMing for getting back autoabandoned eggs (my scroll, my business) and would create problems between users.

I would also prefer if the Ascended dragons become unbreedable.

But not every user does take CB dragons - some only want bred ones (as you say...my scroll my business) - why would I exclude those people from having ascended dragons just because the parents of their dragons are known? And what about breed only dragons like shallow waters or geods- are they not ascandable at all then no matter what the artist wanted for them?

If we need a solution to this issue at all, I think an easier solution to the it would ruin lineage appearance is that ascended dragons do not show up as ascended in a lineage - after all the breed has not changed.

 

-About limit, I wouldn't put a time limit, but a per breed limit. My thought is that 2 ascended dragons for each breed is enough, I don't like too much the idea that we could ascend all the dragons that are on our scroll. If the Alts will ascend into the same form as Normal dragons, this number will be also good to have an Ascended pair for each breed (or only one, for those that collect only one sprite); btw, if the Alts could gain an own ascended form, they should be enabled to get a pair of Ascended too.

 

I quote you again "my scroll my business" - if I want to have 500 misfit pygmies and I am willing to invest that time in raising I can have 500 misfit pygmies. I also can have 200 gold dragons (eventough some scream it is unfair to people who have no golds at all) - why should I am not be allowed to have 50 ascended red dragons if I like that sprite a lot? Or what about teh people who want a ascended CB pair and a 2nd gen pair - why would that have to be limitted? I see why holidays need to have a limit - they drop only a limitted time and it gives more peole a chance of getting one when there is a scroll limit. But who would be hurt if there is no limit to ascention? I for myself can't see a single reason as to why not all dragons can (can as in an option, - not somethign that happens automatically) ascend.

[annageckos]

But not every user does take CB dragons - some only want bred ones (as you say...my scroll my business) - why would I exclude those people from having ascended dragons just because the parents of their dragons are known? And what about breed only dragons like shallow waters or geods- are they not ascandable at all then no matter what the artist wanted for them?

If we need a solution to this issue at all, I think an easier solution to the it would ruin lineage appearance is that ascended dragons do not show up as ascended in a lineage - after all the breed has not changed.

 

 

 

I quote you again "my scroll my business" - if I want to have 500 misfit pygmies and I am willing to invest that time in raising I can have 500 misfit pygmies. I also can have 200 gold dragons (eventough some scream it is unfair to people who have no golds at all) - why should I am not be allowed to have 50 ascended red dragons if I like that sprite a lot? Or what about teh people who want a ascended CB pair and a 2nd gen pair - why would that have to be limitted? I see why holidays need to have a limit - they drop only a limitted time and it gives more peole a chance of getting one when there is a scroll limit. But who would be hurt if there is no limit to ascention? I for myself can't see a single reason as to why not all dragons can (can as in an option, - not somethign that happens automatically) ascend.

I agree with this. Also, on the linage thing. Right now you could 'ruin' a linage by killing or turning a dragon into a zombie.

[Shanthaia]

I agree with this. Also, on the linage thing. Right now you could 'ruin' a linage by killing or turning a dragon into a zombie.

Of course you can ruin a lineage now as well - but the killing is a bit less common than ascention would be I think. At least if I judge that by my own playing style. Not every lineage is made from dragons where you know the owners and where everyone is interested in the lineage. I mayself have several lovey dragons I got from the AP, which I love for their lineage and tried to continue what was already there - so messed up lineage, tough not a main concern of mine, seems like a point that needs discussing because many people play for lineage.

[Kirbyburn]

If people want a perfect lineage, then they need to get it themselves. You can't make that a reason for someone else not to ascend because you want to keep it looking as it does. That like me telling someone not to get a new car, so my car still looks good. In this case, I should not have moved to that area in the first place. Also, some people have special lineages can be found on the forum, so maybe something can be worked out.

[Fuzzbucket]

If people want a perfect lineage, then they need to get it themselves. You can't make that a reason for someone else not to ascend because you want to keep it looking as it does. That like me telling someone not to get a new car, so my car still looks good. In this case, I should not have moved to that area in the first place. Also, some people have special lineages can be found on the forum, so maybe something can be worked out.

I don't think that's a valid analogy. No-one would be changing your car in a way you don't like.

 

No views either way on this really, though it would be nice if lineage images were simply unascended.

[Kila]

I'm in the "my scroll, my dragons" crowd.

 

No one should be able how to tell you how to play your game. If I want to Ascent my dragons that have children, I'm going to do it.

[HeatherMarie]

I'm in the "my scroll, my dragons" crowd.

 

No one should be able how to tell you how to play your game. If I want to Ascent my dragons that have children, I'm going to do it.

This, sooooo much.

 

It honestly doesn't matter if Ascending a certain dragon might "ruin" a "perfect lineage". Those dragons in that lineage, many of them are going to belong to other people, people other then the lineage-creator. You can't stop someone from killing or vamping a "perfect-lineage" dragon, and you shouldn't be able to stop them from Ascending, either. If that dragon is on my scroll, it is *my* dragon, not yours, and I should be able to Ascend it if I want to.

[KageSora]

-The only solution that could avoid to ruin perfect lineages (such as breeding projects and big even-gens) if an ancestor's owner suddendly decide to ascend it seems to me enabling ascension only for CB dragons that were never bred: in this way no dragons will have an ascended offspring or parent. I know that there isn't a good motivation for this (Could "CBs can because they are the purest dragons" be a good motivation?) but I really think that projects runners and users that got nice lineaged eggs (in threads or AP) can't PM to everyone owns an ancestor and say "Please, don't ascend that dragon or you'll ruine my dragon's lineage", it would be the same thing as PMing for getting back autoabandoned eggs (my scroll, my business) and would create problems between users.

Then we might as well get rid of the kill action, too, because right now anybody can screw up a lineage horribly by killing a dragon in it. Or possibly worse, taking a dragon in that wonderful, lovely lineage you love so much... And turning one of the dragons into a zombie. I fail to see how ascending will screw the lineages up more than people killing dragons in it will. It may be more widespread, but it's still quite easy to destroy a beautiful lineage.

 

I would also prefer if the Ascended dragons become unbreedable.

Any specific reason why?

 

 

 

-About the Ascension time, if you gather dragon's lifetime infos and you do a little math you'll see that:

Newborn dragons became adults in 3 days, usually gendering around 5 days and 16/15 hours. As you can read in every adult dragon's description, gendering equals to adolescence and between a dragon's adolescence and maturing passes 2 years (our 1 day and an half, approximately), so hatching -> maturing = 4 years (3 days). If we assume that a dragon could ascende when it is around 100 years old, we have 96 days (our time) = 128 years (dragon time) so, according to this, the correct option would be three months. If we choose the six months option, it would mean that a dragon can ascend when it's around 200 years old (192 days = 256 years). I prefer 3 months (I think a century would be enough for a dragon to maturate) and a year (384 days = 512 years) seems too much for me, to be honest.

And I'd like to counter with the idea that a dragon, a being with a potentially infinite lifespan, would be far from at it's peak in only 100 years in my opinion. Personally, I'd rather the dragon need to be several hundred at least, if not several thousand, if we're looking at it only from an RP perspective. But if we take a gameplay perspective into account, it would make more sense to wait 3-6 months. It takes some time waiting, but not so much that it's impossible. I'd favor a 6-month wait myself, preferably a full year but that's not really a popular idea. I like making it a reward you get for sticking around for long enough.

 

 

-About failure, I don't see a matter for it. If a dragon is matured enough to be ready to ascend, why should it fail?

While I dislike a possibility of failure myself... That doesn't really work. It's not a matter of being physically mature enough. Well, not JUST a matter of that--it's got more than that. The dragon would have to be at the top of it's mental and magical (and spiritual...?) state, too. Just because I reach the proper age to, say, get my driver's license doesn't mean I should automatically be given one. I need to work, to learn, and to prove myself to get one. I figure from an RP perspective, a dragon ascends when it has not just reached a physical peak, but when it has studied long and hard and learned a great deal about it's innate magical nature and how it interacts with the world.

 

As somebody said before, everybody gets old--but not everybody gets to become a respected elder.

 

 

-About limit, I wouldn't put a time limit, but a per breed limit. My thought is that 2 ascended dragons for each breed is enough, I don't like too much the idea that we could ascend all the dragons that are on our scroll. If the Alts will ascend into the same form as Normal dragons, this number will be also good to have an Ascended pair for each breed (or only one, for those that collect only one sprite); btw, if the Alts could gain an own ascended form, they should be enabled to get a pair of Ascended too.

 

Then lets put a limit on EVERY breed of dragon--after all, I don't like that some people can have an army of golds but I only have my 3! Or hey, I don't like that some people have enough Reds or Pinks to incubate/influence EVERYTHING, but I don't!

Edited September 22, 2011 by KageSora

[Fuzzbucket]

As somebody said before, everybody gets old--but not everybody gets to become a respected elder.

That was me and I still agree with me

 

I speak as a deeply unrespected 66 y/o.... There is no way I would ever be allowed by any tribe to ascend to anything