Ascension

[Fuzzbucket]

I can't help thinking that adding extra stages at this point is going to ...

 

*sigh*

 

We are having enough trouble getting any sort of consensus, and it isn't as if TJ would necessarily listen, anyway, and...

 

One thing at a time, maybe ?

[olympe]

Maybe I should have pointed it out, but I was being a little sarcastic. I mean, the sheer amount of work is more than I care to consider. Plus, it's really, really complicated.

 

However, that doesn't mean that, maybe a year after ascension is implemented, we can't discuss and/or work on a set of sprites for another ascended stage. (Ascended II?) But right now, we should settle for the one extra stage we have the artists working on.

[Kila]

I agree that this is unlikely to happen, if for no other reason than the number of sprites required.

 

But I put this vision of where ascending could eventually lead up to be looked at precisely because of the disagreement over how the one additional stage should work. The Ancient, Venerable, and Ascended statuses all embody different visions of what Ascended "means".

 

So if we leave out the idea of a "molted" stage requiring views, perhaps agreement could be reached that Ascended is intended to be like "Ancient" in my elaborate scenario - and that having it that way doesn't preclude adding additional stages of ascension sometime in the far future.

Why take a simple idea and complicate it? A lot of players like the simplicity of DC, myself being one of them. I'm also completely against making more sprites to "age" already existing ones for many reasons. The largest is the fact that the artists do have lives. They have other projects. The current Ascension sprites have been in the works for some two odd years, and that's just for the core dragons, not any of the newer ones. Why add on to their plate?

 

Second...

 

I thought the generally agreed-upon idea was that ascended basically meant the dragon was wiser and magically stronger without physical deterioration...?

 

This.

 

Ascension was originally concepted as a dragon reaching it's full potential. It wasn't just about aging. Let me dredge up an example or two.

 

Please do not comment on the sprites themselves. They are highly unfinished and were, at one time, public. These are for use only as a visual aid.

 

 

The Ascended Red gains a more fericious look. Reds are the typical story book dragon of the cave, and their ascension, while not nearly as dramatic as the Skywing (below), still shows that they grow larger and more intimidating, a skill needed for a dragon that breathes fire and ocassionally kidnaps a princess or two.

 

 

Dove stated that as the Skywing aged, its scales lightened in color. And, since they are primarily fliers, their ascension grants them another pair of wings. They have a rather dramatic physical change, allowing them to have more flight skills than before.

 

The Mints, as stated by Shikaru, would gain wings (either formed of magic or not), but I have no pictures saved from that time.

 

So, while the most effective, simple way of implimenting ascension is by an age based method, the actual concept behind ascension was the dragon reaching its full potential. Age is just a part of the formula, not the whole part. To make the art of ascension purely age based goes against the original concept.

[olympe]

Okay, if ascended is the absolute full potential, then ascended is the last stage (unless you insist on counting tombstones and zombies). Which reminds me, does that mean you can get an ascended zombie by zombiefying an ascended dragon? /shot

 

(off-topic: I really don't want to comment on the sprites, but now, I finally get the white markings on the skywing eggs.)

[Kila]

I think Zombies would be exempt from that, because they are hellish creatures created by magic gone wrong. The magic didn't help the Zombie reach its full potential. It botched upthe revival of the poor deceased dragon and turned it into a monster by twisting its body into something entirely different.

[olympe]

I didn't mean for the magic to help the dragon to reach its full potential. But let's say you have an ascended skywing or whatever, kill and revive it. Shouldn't it turn into an ascended zombie then? After all, it must have reached its full potential prior to being killed and revived. And shouldn't an ascended turned zombie be more dangerous/hellish/amazing/whatever than a young adult turned zombie?

[Kila]

Not if the magic that was used in its creation twists its form beyond all recognition.

 

It's why Pygmies, Waters, Ice dragons, etc are all zombified into the same grotesque form with no physical hint pointing to what they once were. I don't see why ascended dragons would be any different.

[quadibloc]

The largest is the fact that the artists do have lives. They have other projects. The current Ascension sprites have been in the works for some two odd years, and that's just for the core dragons, not any of the newer ones. Why add on to their plate?

That I agree with wholeheartedly. Of course, it may be that over those two years, they tried out concepts for the dragons that they put aside, replacing with better ones.

 

(Also, if ascended dragons can breed, presumably there are already two ascended sprites for most breeds.)

 

This is partly why I thought that the "Ascended" sprite in my scheme should just be a recolor of the Venerable sprite - the Venerable sprite being the Ascended sprite in development. Since the Ascended sprites are the ultimate "better" sprite for the dragon types, no way am I going to turn around and ask the spriters to top that right away!

 

Because I suspected that other concepts were tried before whatever form the artists are now working on was reached, I figured there would be some other cool sprites, just not quite as good, just sitting there, waiting to be put to use, which the Ancient dragon could make available.

 

But this wasn't a "serious" suggestion in the sense of "we need this"; Ascended is itself a really wonderful surprise, and so we don't need more.

 

Instead, it was intended to illustrate two things. One was the full potential of an idea like Ascended. The other was to show three different aspects of what it might mean to be an Ascended dragon - one that, as has been noted, has reached its "full potential".

 

At the very beginning, it was thought that an Ascended dragon couldn't breed. So does that mean they've gone on to some non-physical stage, being now in the afterlife? That's what my "Ascended" corresponded to.

 

The other debate was what the failure rate on ascension should be. If an ascended dragon is not just one that has achieved its personal full potential, but is one that is a very exceptional dragon, then it makes sense that not all dragons would be able to ascend ever. That concept was illustrated by my Venerable dragon.

 

But if neither of those things are the case - if an Ascended dragon simply achieves its own full potential, without becoming almost an avatar among dragons, and is still a regular physical dragon that can breed - then the Ancient dragon more closely indicates what it should be.

 

So this was not so much intended as a "hey, this is neat, TJ, why not do this next" as an invitation to the people here to make up their minds about what ascension should mean.

 

This is because I made my first post on this following a discussion about what failure rate ascension should have.

 

I felt that it didn't make sense to ask how often the Ascend BSA should fail - without a very clear idea of what you are trying to do when you use the Ascend BSA. So I was trying to make that context explicit.

 

(off-topic: I really don't want to comment on the sprites, but now, I finally get the white markings on the skywing eggs.)

I think the idea was simply to note that since those aren't the current final forms of the sprites, there's no point in giving criticism or suggestions for improvement. Noting that they look wonderful is OK, I think.

Edited April 8, 2011 by quadibloc

[~!~]

I'm also completely against making more sprites to "age" already existing ones for many reasons. The largest is the fact that the artists do have lives. They have other projects. The current Ascension sprites have been in the works for some two odd years, and that's just for the core dragons, not any of the newer ones. Why add on to their plate?

It's not like anybody's requiring that this be done in any short amount of time, though. So long as this site continues to develop, there will always be more work for the artists. Either things will happen more slowly, or the number of artists will grow. If adding a new layer to ascension (which I don't really like, but it's a ready example) creates more work for the artists, we'll have to accept that it will take a lot longer to do. If an artist gets bored with ascendeds and wants to stop working on it, someone else can work on it in their stead. (Unless, of course, they refuse to allow anybody else to work on it, in which case that's their problem.)

[Kila]

That I agree with wholeheartedly. Of course, it may be that over those two years, they tried out concepts for the dragons that they put aside, replacing with better ones.

 

I've been a part of the project since the very beginning. Some concepts have several sprites up for consideration as the final Ascended. Others were started and nixed by the concept's original artist/conceptor becasuse it didn't match their vision for the "final form" (so t speak) of their dragon, and others are still in the running. A few of the artists have gone MIA (like Shikaru with the Mints), etc. There's a different story for each sprite, and I know each of them.

 

(Also, if ascended dragons can breed, presumably there are already two ascended sprites for most breeds.)

 

Some breeds do have two sprites to display dimorphism. Some don't. the Skywings, as per Dove, will not have a second sprite. What you see there is the only option for both genders. It all depends on the artist and how large the dimorphism is between the two genders.

 

This is partly why I thought that the "Ascended" sprite in my scheme should just be a recolor of the Venerable sprite - the Venerable sprite being the Ascended sprite in development. Since the Ascended sprites are the ultimate "better" sprite for the dragon types, no way am I going to turn around and ask the spriters to top that right away!

 

Because I suspected that other concepts were tried before whatever form the artists are now working on was reached, I figured there would be some other cool sprites, just not quite as good, just sitting there, waiting to be put to use, which the Ancient dragon could make available.

 

But this wasn't a "serious" suggestion in the sense of "we need this"; Ascended is itself a really wonderful surprise, and so we don't need more.

 

Instead, it was intended to illustrate two things. One was the full potential of an idea like Ascended. The other was to show three different aspects of what it might mean to be an Ascended dragon - one that, as has been noted, has reached its "full potential".

 

As stated before, many concepts only have one or two sprites in the running for various reasons. The White has the most, but Dove said no to several of them. So essentially, there aren't other sprites for use as "Venerable" or anything else. If Ascention were to evolve into something more (which again, I don't see why it would, since Ascention is the dragon's full potential), it would involve the artists coming up with more sprites. The project may never even be finished.

 

At the very beginning, it was thought that an Ascended dragon couldn't breed. So does that mean they've gone on to some non-physical stage, being now in the afterlife? That's what my "Ascended" corresponded to.

 

The other debate was what the failure rate on ascension should be. If an ascended dragon is not just one that has achieved its personal full potential, but is one that is a very exceptional dragon, then it makes sense that not all dragons would be able to ascend ever. That concept was illustrated by my Venerable dragon.

 

But if neither of those things are the case - if an Ascended dragon simply achieves its own full potential, without becoming almost an avatar among dragons, and is still a regular physical dragon that can breed - then the Ancient dragon more closely indicates what it should be.

 

I can't recall if breeding was ever brought up in the original threads (it underwent several wipes and lockings, so the very first thread is lost), and the one I have access to is 88 pages long. Forgive me for not reading through it all while I wait for my bus -has no desire to read through old drama and old posts-

 

If that was ever the case then, it certainly isn't now. Ascension has not been publically discussed in a thread like this for at least a year.

 

I, for one, don't see why they couldn't breed. Dragons don't go through menopause like mamals. They're not in another state of existance, either. They've just simply reached their full potential, either in magic, physical condition, or both.

 

Breeding should be discussed in this thread. It should never be assumed that it can't be. This thread is here for debating suggestions about the ascension process, and getting a streamlined idea that the majority will like. And with that streamlined idea of what Ascension does and how it would be implimented, we can then present it to TJ and get a final yes or no. I talked to him about it the other day, but he logged off before our conversation was complete. I don't exactly know how much I can say, but I can feel quite confident in saying that simple is better.

 

It's also why we were discussing the potential fail rate; to reach a consensus on what the majority like. You can fail to reach your full potential, but you always have the option to go back and work on what's wrong.

 

I think (and I use that loosely) that the majority of people see ascension the same way, but I'm going to pose this as an official question (with my mod hat back on).

 

So, I ask every one of you involved here this: What does Ascension mean to you?

[Dr. Paine]

"What does Ascension mean to you?"

 

Pretty much what was originally suggested- a dragon that's reached its full potential. A Magi would be an ubermage, Grays could create, like... hurricanes, Mints get wings, Hellfires could become living infernos, that sort of thing. A dragon that's trained all its life to become the best at what it can do, and finally gets to that point. I don't think it'd really be some kind of GoN tier, but they would stand out quite a bit from other dragons. Physically, they'd also be at the peak of health, strength, magic, intelligence, whatever.

 

... for some reason, I feel like comparing it to people who've gone through college and all and have become extremely talented in their field of study. Not quite 'best of the best', but pretty high up there.

 

 

ETA: Some of my thoughts on other points.

 

I believe there should only be one extra stage- sure, going through various things would be fun, but the workload is ridiculous, and it would cause a ton of frustration among the die-hard collectors.

 

Things like Dinos, Chickens, GoNs, Neglecteds, Zombies, Christmas and Valentine dragons... they shouldn't ascend, simply because of rarity and the aforementioned collection issues. Halloweens- Pumpkins, Vampires and Marrows- are unlimited and fairly common during their season, and Papers/Cheeses are common enough that I could see them ascending without too much fuss.

 

Breeding: Why not? I have yet to see a real good reason for why breeding should be disabled on any that aren't already unbreedable. Ascension is the prime of life, so why wouldn't they be passing on their genes?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Dr. Paine

[Kila]

It was stated that no holidays would ascend, Vampires and Pumpkins included. I can dredge up the quote, if you'd like.

[Dr. Paine]

It was stated that no holidays would ascend, Vampires and Pumpkins included. I can dredge up the quote, if you'd like.

Ah, alright then ^^' Must've missed that, sorry.

[olympe]

I second what Doc Paine said. Ascension is the ultimate best phase in the life of a dragon, where it's at the peak of its powers and its physical attributes. Which means several things:

 

1) A dragon at its peak is many things, but sterile isn't one of them.

2) It's a natural thing to get there, so a high failure rate is out of the question.

3) Since the ascended would be a natural development, but not something every dragon would reach, a slight failure rate would be okay (as in "failing to graduate"), but not a necessity IMHO.

4) Gaining whatever it takes to ascend takes time, so a dragon that's just matured shouldn't be able to do this.

5) Stronger BSAs would make sense, but I'm not going to argue for them. However, I think that for each improvement, there should be some penalty. Like this, for example: Incubate takes one day off the timer of an egg and has a cooldown of 14 days. Now, if improved BSAs get implemented, I'd like the ascended incubate to take off 1.5 days off an egg, but have a cooldown of 3 or even 4 weeks. (In my opinion, even a 4-week cooldown would outweigh the advantage of taking 36 hours off an egg.) Pink influence could have a zero failure rate, but have an increased cooldown as well. Earthquake... dunno. Can be nixed anyway, I guess. Summon could increase your chances of success by 3% to 5% for an ascended of each trio type, to a maximum of one ascended bonus per breed of trio. An ascended splash could count double for the badge - or triple, and have twice the usual cooldown.

5) I could see a change in breeding, too. Like heightened chance of success/non-refusals, but a higher cooldown for breeding. (Ascended dragons would be highly desirable to potential mates and probably highly fertile, given them being at the peak. Yet, they might be a little lazy or take more time for other things than breeding and raising young. (I don't know if this holds true for other countries as well, but here in Germany, people with a high level of education have significantly fewer children than people with a low level of education.)

[Kila]

I second what Doc Paine said. Ascension is the ultimate best phase in the life of a dragon, where it's at the peak of its powers and its physical attributes. Which means several things:

 

1) A dragon at its peak is many things, but sterile isn't one of them.

2) It's a natural thing to get there, so a high failure rate is out of the question.

3) Since the ascended would be a natural development, but not something every dragon would reach, a slight failure rate would be okay (as in "failing to graduate"), but not a necessity IMHO.

4) Gaining whatever it takes to ascend takes time, so a dragon that's just matured shouldn't be able to do this.

5) Stronger BSAs would make sense, but I'm not going to argue for them. However, I think that for each improvement, there should be some penalty. Like this, for example: Incubate takes one day off the timer of an egg and has a cooldown of 14 days. Now, if improved BSAs get implemented, I'd like the ascended incubate to take off 1.5 days off an egg, but have a cooldown of 3 or even 4 weeks. (In my opinion, even a 4-week cooldown would outweigh the advantage of taking 36 hours off an egg.) Pink influence could have a zero failure rate, but have an increased cooldown as well. Earthquake... dunno. Can be nixed anyway, I guess. Summon could increase your chances of success by 3% to 5% for an ascended of each trio type, to a maximum of one ascended bonus per breed of trio. An ascended splash could count double for the badge - or triple, and have twice the usual cooldown.

5) I could see a change in breeding, too. Like heightened chance of success/non-refusals, but a higher cooldown for breeding. (Ascended dragons would be highly desirable to potential mates and probably highly fertile, given them being at the peak. Yet, they might be a little lazy or take more time for other things than breeding and raising young. (I don't know if this holds true for other countries as well, but here in Germany, people with a high level of education have significantly fewer children than people with a low level of education.)

I think you make very good points, but I think it's important to take coding into this. I still think it's the best route to go simple, and this is my experience as a former mod and site artist into account.

 

I'll talk to TJ on exactly how difficult it would be/if that would impact his decision to greenlight or nix the entire ascension concept once I can get a hold of him.

[KageSora]

To me, it basically means the dragon has reached the peak of it's physical and/or magical potential and is at it's most powerful.

 

I like the idea of a slight fail rate, because a guarantee isn't interesting and it makes sense that they could potentially fail to ascend. Then they get to try again, taking what they learned from their failure into account.

 

I think they should be able to breed, because like I said to me it's them at their peak and thus they would be in the best breeding condition.

 

I'm neutral on enhanced BSAs and breeding potential, personally. It would make sense in an RP context, but at the same time it would be more coding work and like Kila said, simple is better.

[HeatherMarie]

To me, Ascend is basically an older/wiser/possibly stronger/etc dragon who "matures" to it's final form. And yes, ever since I first heard about Ascend back when the original thread was around, I've always thought of it as a "final form". I won't argue against it if everyone else wants there to be a stage or two after Ascend, but to me Ascend is the final thing.

 

The way I think of it is sort of like.... A turtle, one of those species of turtles that can live for hundreds of years. Reaching, say, 200 years old, that's special in itself because it's older then most other species on Earth reach... But then, if that mega-old turtle is mature enough mentally, wise enough, *good* enough, to earn a very special title among all the other turtles... That would be Ascend. Like, all dragons *can* reach the (6 months? whatever) age requirement, but not all would be ready to Ascend.

 

The dragons that Ascend, are special. They watch over the others in their breed, as a sort of Wisened Elder. A dragon that tries to Ascend and fails, just works that much harder to become the kind of dragon it takes to Ascend. And eventually it, too, will Ascend.

 

.... And I didn't mean to write all that. *ahem*

 

Basically, I think Ascend is special, something dragons would strive for, so I think a small fail rate would be okay. Nothing too big, though.

 

I don't think Ascending should mean a dragon loses it's ability to breed... Dragons in-cave never lose that ability, no matter how old they get, so why should Ascendeds?

 

I don't support enhanced BSAs and enhanced breeding potential. Ascend in itself is special enough. Ascend (to me) is about those beautiful sprites, and knowing that my dragon has reached it's full potential. I think it'd be awfully unfair if only Ascended dragons could get special BSA considerations... What about newbies who use those BSAs, but haven't been around long enough to be able to Ascend? Or what about people who simply don't like the thought of Ascending? No, I don't want Ascend to give special privilages.

[KageSora]

What about newbies who use those BSAs, but haven't been around long enough to be able to Ascend? Or what about people who simply don't like the thought of Ascending? No, I don't want Ascend to give special privilages.

Well, what about newbies who love the ascended sprites they see, but haven't been around long enough to get them? That's just as unfair as it is for them to not be able to have an enhanced BSA/breeding ability. They'd be able to get it when they stuck around long enough. And what about people who simply hate one or more of the Trio dragons, but love the GoN? It's simply not fair to force them to collect dragons they hate to be able to have the special ability to try and get a GoN. It's the same thing if they want the boosted abilities of an ascended dragon. Or what about somebody who hates a certain sprite (say, red or pink), or is dedicated to only having one breed? It's not fair to force them to collect certain breeds to be able to have the ability to us a BSA, then.

 

There are already several things in the cave that force somebody to have something if they want to be able to do something, so I don't see why giving enhanced abilities to an ascended would be different.

 

I still don't care much one way or the other, though. As long as they don't lose the ability to breed or use their BSA, I don't care too much, personally.

[Fengari]

The way I think of it is sort of like.... A turtle, one of those species of turtles that can live for hundreds of years. Reaching, say, 200 years old, that's special in itself because it's older then most other species on Earth reach... But then, if that mega-old turtle is mature enough mentally, wise enough, *good* enough, to earn a very special title among all the other turtles... That would be Ascend.

 

The dragons that Ascend, are special. They watch over the others in their breed, as a sort of Wisened Elder. A dragon that tries to Ascend and fails, just works that much harder to become the kind of dragon it takes to Ascend. And eventually it, too, will Ascend.

This is exactly what I felt Ascension was about too...

That's why I opted for a small failure rate: just to point out that it is not an automatic, purely age-related extra stage.

Please stop saying you don't want a failure rate because 'you don't want another Summon' just because it has the words 'failure rate'... With the rates most people here were suggesting, the chance of it failing would be about the same as the chance of Summon succeeding, so it's nowhere near the same. And I don't think anyone wanted as long as a cooldown either.

 

If we go with the 'at the peak of it's potential' idea (which is close enough to what I feel it should be), there's no RP logic for it not being able to breed.

And gamewise it wouldn't be right either, because I think people would want to ascend the dragons they are most proud of, but they will also want to be able to breed those.

 

There is a RP logic to enhanced BSAs, but I'm not for them for gameplay reasons:

Without enhanced BSAs Ascension is something people can choose to do or not to do for a lot of different reasons: aesthetic (just because they like the sprites), collecting (to get each sprite) or RP (because they want to make the dragons they feel are 'special' also look special).

With enhanced BSAs it becomes more of a 'must do', pushing people to Ascend a s much dragons with BSAs as possible.

I'd really like to keep it as free choice as possible gamewise.

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

oh good, someone understood my turtle example! yay!

 

Agree about the enhanced BSAs. There are many different reason to not like the idea, but whatever the reason... I just don't.

[Fuzzbucket]

oh good, someone understood my turtle example! yay!

 

Agree about the enhanced BSAs. There are many different reason to not like the idea, but whatever the reason... I just don't.

Me too (turtles). And absolutely. Not every aged person in any given society is deemed to be an elder. Sam e thing here. But - with BSAs there is a failure rate with ALL of them - and Ascension, I think it should be a bit more so, but NOT like summon.

 

I am TOLD influence can fail. I don't think mine ever has. Bite can fail; even kill can fail. (Not sure about incubate...)

 

Nothing in life is 100% - even whether the sun will rise. One day it won't... And ascension should be special, not automatic at x years.

 

But not enhanced BSAs. Elders are above things like that - seriously.

[quadibloc]

Not every aged person in any given society is deemed to be an elder.

And that's why I first raised the possibility of ascending failing permanently (not by killing the dragon, but just causing it to lose the chance to ascend), and then tried to illustrate the rationale for that by giving the example of the distinction between "Ancient" and "Venerable".

 

A dragon in its prime of life is one thing; a dragon that is an elder among dragons is another.

[natli]

I see Ascension as sth fun to do for the older users, who caught almost all they wanted and who are working on lineages to kill the boredom between new releases of dragons.

 

I think it should not rely on reflexes or pure luck, because we have a lot of such things on DC. The simplest idea would be to continue the growth of the dragon on the same rules. That is, age AND views. I would put the required age at 6 months or more. And the required views at 100 000.

 

Of course, ascension would still be quite easy, but it would require effort to gain those views.

[Fuzzbucket]

And that's why I first raised the possibility of ascending failing permanently (not by killing the dragon, but just causing it to lose the chance to ascend), and then tried to illustrate the rationale for that by giving the example of the distinction between "Ancient" and "Venerable".

 

A dragon in its prime of life is one thing; a dragon that is an elder among dragons is another.

Yes indeed - but should they not have the chance to IMPROVE and gain the status ?

 

Dragons do not gain views as adults, so anything based on views is a non-starter. And it MUST not be automatic.

 

I am an older user (66 !! yes I know that's not what you meant ) and I have most of the dragons I want. I would NOT be looking at ascension because I am bored.

 

If people are bored they should find something else to do with their time

[Kila]

And that's why I first raised the possibility of ascending failing permanently (not by killing the dragon, but just causing it to lose the chance to ascend), and then tried to illustrate the rationale for that by giving the example of the distinction between "Ancient" and "Venerable".

 

A dragon in its prime of life is one thing; a dragon that is an elder among dragons is another.

As I stated before, I don't want a RNG to choose which of my dragons can ascend. I have specific dragons on my scroll that I want to ascend; the first dragons I got for each breed. They've been around the longest, and for them to not reach their full potential is a load of bull in my mind.

 

I'm sure others feel the same.

 

I see Ascension as sth fun to do for the older users, who caught almost all they wanted and who are working on lineages to kill the boredom between new releases of dragons.

 

I think it should not rely on reflexes or pure luck, because we have a lot of such things on DC. The simplest idea would be to continue the growth of the dragon on the same rules. That is, age AND views. I would put the required age at 6 months or more. And the required views at 100 000.

 

Of course, ascension would still be quite easy, but it would require effort to gain those views.

 

Adults no loner gain views. My oldest dragon, Immortal Var, has 4,792 views. Few of my dragons have over 5,000 views. The dragon with the most views is my Rosebud, with 20,220 views.

 

All views must be gained before the dragon goes up. For us to get 100,000 views in two weeks is nearly impossible.

 

So if it's view based, the number needs to drop. But, the last time I checked, most people were against having it view based.