We want Forum Feedback!

[stogucheme]

xXAngelicEvilXx, I would love to agree with you, but posting a thread entitled 'Critique the new sprite' or something to that effect, will invite a LOT more criticism than the pretty rare and reserved post with critique in the actual release thread. My point being that I think this idea would exasperate the problem much, much further.

But the point is that the critique shouldn't be in the News thread in the first place. That's why relocation is needed.

[skauble]

I don't know if this would work, but I'll throw it out there:

 

I really like the permission list we have for the artists, because it lets us avoid trying to make a blanket policy work when each artist has their individual preferences of how their sprites can be used. Would it be workable to have a section in the Requests Area where artists can make a thread for released sprites they're still interested in/willing to make changes to?

 

Then people who have concerns about anatomy, shading, etc. can share them in a place where there's time and space for a constructive discussion, all ideas could be considered, and release threads (especially holiday threads) would be more relaxed.

 

And for the dragons spriters aren't planning to work on, they don't need to start a thread.

 

I want to stress here that I don't think that means that people can't discuss and critique the sprites without threads, it's just that I honestly think that some of the problems come from a. the expectations players sometimes have that sprites are going to be “fixed” or that they're in a continuous state of flux and b. mixing all of the focused concrit in with all of the other massive activity when it's a new release being discussed.

 

If nothing else, I think that knowing up front whether the dragon was WYSIWYG would let people know where things stand. Also, a lot of suggestions come up for older breeds, too (see the thread for the Reds), and this would help people know if those were open for change, also.

[Fuzzbucket]

it's just that I honestly think that some of the problems come from a. the expectations players sometimes have that sprites are going to be “fixed” or that they're in a continuous state of flux and b. mixing all of the focused concrit in with all of the other massive activity when it's a new release being discussed.

 

If nothing else, I think that knowing up front whether the dragon was WYSIWYG would let people know where things stand. Also, a lot of suggestions come up for older breeds, too (see the thread for the Reds), and this would help people know if those were open for change, also.

THIS ! Some people are happy to accept ideas and even change their sprites. Others aren't. And if they aren't going to be changed - what's the POINT in blasting them.

 

And @ Dubious - I wouldn't call it "crit the new sprite" - there wouldn't need to be one for every sprite anyway. But if a thread were called "What do you thing of the new greenbellied froglet" - that would allow for concrit without specifically inviting rude remarks....

[stogucheme]

I don't know if this would work, but I'll throw it out there:

 

I really like the permission list we have for the artists, because it lets us avoid trying to make a blanket policy work when each artist has their individual preferences of how their sprites can be used. Would it be workable to have a section in the Requests Area where artists can make a thread for released sprites they're still interested in/willing to make changes to?

 

Then people who have concerns about anatomy, shading, etc. can share them in a place where there's time and space for a constructive discussion, all ideas could be considered, and release threads (especially holiday threads) would be more relaxed.

 

And for the dragons spriters aren't planning to work on, they don't need to start a thread.

 

I want to stress here that I don't think that means that people can't discuss and critique the sprites without threads, it's just that I honestly think that some of the problems come from a. the expectations players sometimes have that sprites are going to be “fixed” or that they're in a continuous state of flux and b. mixing all of the focused concrit in with all of the other massive activity when it's a new release being discussed.

 

If nothing else, I think that knowing up front whether the dragon was WYSIWYG would let people know where things stand. Also, a lot of suggestions come up for older breeds, too (see the thread for the Reds), and this would help people know if those were open for change, also.

I like that. A simple note at the top of a news thread, "You may NOT critique the sprite," or "You may critique the sprite here."

[LuckyFreckle]

But the point is that the critique shouldn't be in the News thread in the first place. That's why relocation is needed.

That was exactly my point. I could be wrong about how much criticism a new thread invites, but the fact remains that I could be wrong. I don't know what's going to happen, and neither does anyone else. We won't know unless the method is tried, and if more criticism comes? So what? The point was relocation of the criticism, not the amount of it.

 

Anywho, I said my piece, I have errands to run, and I hope that some sort of resolution is found for this situation.

[Rally Vincent]

I'm sorry if it came across that way.  I tried to be very clear that I don't think anyone should be telling people to shut up.  You said that you failed to see how someone could think a given comment was rude and I merely explained why some people might see it that way.  Seeing that perspective doesn't mean condoning every behavior someone chooses to take.

Okay, I think I just misunderstood you there. Sorry for that.

 

Frankly, I'll admit that, in regard to concrit, I kind of find the whole - people aren't going to being allowed to have their opinions thing to be slightly alarmist.  There are forums all across the internet and places all throughout the real world where concrit is the expected form of critique.  And the fact that it's being made out to be some kind of arduous burden to  take an extra few minutes to add a little info to a post so that it can be helpful seems strange to me.

And to me, DC is the only forum I visit where a large part of the userbase thinks that one should not be allowed to just state "dislike" without concrit, just as "like" can be stated without "concpraise". That seems hypocritical to me. Saying "I like that" is nothing more then a positive statement. Are we so shallow that we allow praise in whichever form because it gives fuzzy feelings, but cannot stand disapproval in the same form?

 

 

 

[stogucheme]

Okay, I think I just misunderstood you there. Sorry for that.

 

 

And to me, DC is the only forum I visit where a large part of the userbase thinks that one should not be allowed to just state "dislike" without concrit, just as "like" can be stated without "concpraise". That seems hypocritical to me. Saying "I like that" is nothing more then a positive statement. Are we so shallow that we allow praise in whichever form because it gives fuzzy feelings, but cannot stand disapproval in the same form?

It's actually not hypocritical, if you think about it. If someone tells you, 'I like it!' they do not find (m)any flaws. If someone tells you, 'I don't like it!' they find enough flaws in your work to dislike it. You're left wondering what you messed up on, and not knowing because you thought it was great. *insert sleepless nights- for me, at least- here*

 

Summed up, knowing what was good is not as important as knowing what wasn't. You don't worry about what was good, right?

[skauble]

And to me, DC is the only forum I visit where a large part of the userbase thinks that one should not be allowed to just state "dislike" without concrit, just as "like" can be stated without "concpraise". That seems hypocritical to me. Saying "I like that" is nothing more then a positive statement. Are we so shallow that we allow praise in whichever form because it gives fuzzy feelings, but cannot stand disapproval in the same form?

Ummm....yeah? lol

 

Part of that is because, again, I think there's a very strong expectation from many players that the artists are going to continuously alter their sprites. As I mentioned above, we still have people suggesting dragons as old as the Reds be changed. In that kind of atmosphere I do think it's more important to state why you may not like something.

 

But, more to the point, part of why concrit works is because it smooths out communication. It lets people be heard and artists feel appreciated. And that kind of environment has been shown, over and over again, to foster creativity. As a community that depends so heavily on creativity, I don't think it's overly burdensome for everyone to lend a helping hand. An artist or a conceptor may work for months on a dragon so I admit that I don't feel oppressive suggesting that someone takes a few extra minutes to add some con to their crit.

 

PS My grandson is not allowed on here, but is behind me and says all we need is a sprite that looks different and lovely to everyone who sees it. Any spriters ready for that ?

 

We can call it the “Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder” dragon, and when you catch the egg, TJ mails you all a small piece of parchment on which you can draw your own dragon and then stick it on your monitor.

[Rally Vincent]

It's actually not hypocritical, if you think about it. If someone tells you, 'I like it!' they do not find (m)any flaws. If someone tells you, 'I don't like it!' they find enough flaws in your work to dislike it. You're left wondering what you messed up on, and not knowing because you thought it was great. *insert sleepless nights- for me, at least- here*

 

Summed up, knowing what was good is not as important as knowing what wasn't. You don't worry about what was good, right?

If you ask people about the Holly, and someone says "I like it" - does it mean they do not find flaws in the sprite? I've heard otherwise. "I like it" can be as unconcrete as "I dislike it". Both statements are just statements without any reasons given. Userbase majority wants to treat it different, which is why I think it is hypocritical. One can dislike sprites that do not have technical flaws. Unless reasons are give, we won't know. So, either ask both sides to only post with reasoins given, or none, but not only one side.

 

 

[stogucheme]

If you ask people about the Holly, and someone says "I like it" - does it mean they do not find flaws in the sprite? I've heard otherwise. "I like it" can be as unconcrete as "I dislike it". Both statements are just statements without any reasons given. Userbase majority wants to treat it different, which is why I think it is hypocritical. One can dislike sprites that do not have technical flaws. Unless reasons are give, we won't know. So, either ask both sides to only post with reasoins given, or none, but not only one side.

Again, that's not the point. The point is, most worry about bad reviews. Most DON'T worry about good reviews.

[stardust13]

My original request for a rules change on Dragon Announcement News posts is here.

 

Reading through some of this, I think some of us are on the same page in terms of the perception of New Dragon Announcement posts, but some aren't. While we might never all have the same perception, let me give you mine in an attempt for us to better understand each other.

 

I see the New Dragon Announcement posts as a dragon's Debut at the Cave. Generally, people gather there to be excited, speculate, share their enthusiasm, give thanks, and other (not always on-topic) chatter. It's a party with a spriter's work at its center, and TJ is the host who is presenting us with the work. It seems both ungrateful and rude to talk in such a thread about how much you don't like the reason for the party.

 

Let me emphasize that I don't think Constructive Criticism posts are rude or ungrateful, but the problem is that ConCrit posts make others who aren't as experienced with giving ConCrit post their thoughts as well. And often it's those posts that spark a section of posts that brings the celebration down.

 

If there's a space given for Sprite Constructive Criticism that is open at the same time as the Dragon's Debut thread, mods could point people with constructive comments there in the same way the mods pointed people to the Wreath Sharing thread during the 12 Days of Christmas event. Some negativity and constructive comments (again, they're not the same, I know) will slip into the Debut thread, but the sentiments won't take on a life of their own when directed elsewhere. Yet, the comments that earn re-direct posts from the mods will still be in the celebration thread to make people aware that they can express opinions in the ConCrit thread.

 

With a new rule in place, the Debut of a dragon could still be kept light while also making people aware that their more specific opinions will still be accepted and valued in the ConCrit thread.

 

This is why I'm calling for both a place to have pure fun and celebration of a Dragon release, and a place where the Dragon could be discussed in minute detail, with opinions accepted across the spectrum from "do not like" to "love to pieces". Everyone would be able to express an opinion while still allowing us all - TJ, Spriter(s) and readers - to honor and celebrate the new dragon(s).

 

I hope that clears things up for some people. I also I understand that TJ and the mods might not see the Dragon News threads in the same way I do, and that nothing might come of this discussion. But I'm still glad I asked.

[Sir Barton]

But the point is that the critique shouldn't be in the News thread in the first place. That's why relocation is needed.

Which is already done with reporting typos in descriptions of new releases so that makes perfect sense to me. It also allows an artist who isn't interested in having their artwork picked apart the ability to avoid the thread. After the thrill of having their sprite released has worn off a bit they might be more inclined to check the thread to see how others feel it could be improved. That would be up to them but at least the nitpicking wouldn't be in their face like it is in the news thread.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Typically, I don't even read past the first page in an Announcements thread unless there's something in the first post that I have a question about. A new release thread is Information.. it's informing us that there is a new dragon to collect. I do not see how this type of thread is a request for a debate or even just chatter. Which is why I think New Release threads should be posted and locked.

 

Then if someone has a request or suggestion about the new release, they should start a topic in the Suggestions/Requests forum. Or if they just want to discuss the New Release, there should be a thread in Site Discussion.. after all, that's what those forums are for. The News forum is for NEWS, not chatter.

 

Look at it this way, if something gets posted in the News forum, most likely it's something that TJ is ready to implement. He's not asking for suggestions or opinions, he's letting us know that something is new and newsworthy. When he wants our input, he posts in the Suggestions forum, NOT the News forum.. I should know, I've gotten in trouble for posting in the wrong place.

 

So there you have it.. there's News, there's Announcements and there's Suggestions/Requests and Site Discussion.. and I think it's about time that more attention was paid to what is posted where and why.

[Rally Vincent]

Again, that's not the point. The point is, most worry about bad reviews. Most DON'T worry about good reviews.

I like sprites that are far from perfect, be it the sprite, the colors, or maybe the pose. If you think "like" equal "everything is okay", then you might be closing your eyes from reality. Or you may not, but how will know if you don't ask? But there is one thing for sure - if negative opinions are suppressed, then you will never know what people really think about your art. You'll just hear "like" and think everything is a-okay.

[stogucheme]

I like sprites that are far from perfect, be it the sprite, the colors, or maybe the pose. If you think "like" equal "everything is okay", then you might be closing your eyes from reality. Or you may not, but how will know if you don't ask? But there is one thing for sure - if negative opinions are suppressed, then you will never know what people really think about your art. You'll just hear "like" and think everything is a-okay.

I. Don't. Care. What. 'I like' means. That's. Not. The. Point.

I'm not trying to suppress negative opinions.

I'm trying to get people to explain what they don't like. You don't worry about positive feedback. You worry about negative feedback. That's why you have to explain negative feedback and not positive feedback.

[Fuzzbucket]

Look at it this way, if something gets posted in the News forum, most likely it's something that TJ is ready to implement. He's not asking for suggestions or opinions, he's letting us know that something is new and newsworthy. When he wants our input, he posts in the Suggestions forum, NOT the News forum.. I should know, I've gotten in trouble for posting in the wrong place.

 

So there you have it.. there's News, there's Announcements and there's Suggestions/Requests and Site Discussion.. and I think it's about time that more attention was paid to what is posted where and why.

Right on. And to stogucheme, too.

 

And thanks also to skauble; when grandson gets up in the morning he will be delighted to be told someone listened....

Edited December 30, 2011 by fuzzbucket

[Rally Vincent]

I. Don't. Care. What. 'I like' means. That's. Not. The. Point.

I'm not trying to suppress negative opinions.

I'm trying to get people to explain what they don't like. You don't worry about positive feedback. You worry about negative feedback. That's why you have to explain negative feedback and not positive feedback.

Just because you worry about negative feedback that gives no reason does not oblige someone else to explain the whys and hows. Yet, people demand to explain or shut up. With what right?

[Fuzzbucket]

Just because you worry about negative feedback that gives no reason does not oblige someone else to explain the whys and hows. Yet, people demand to explain or shut up. With what right?

No, it isn't a matter of rights or obligations.

 

It IS a matter of courtesy. If you are going to say something that might upset, it is polite to be nice about it, and that would in a case like that mean saying why.

 

If you say to your friend "you look really nice in that hat" - that's all you need to say. If you think she looks awful and that people would laugh at her in the street, and you say "you don't look good in that hat" - you need to say more than that - you really do. Think on.

[Rally Vincent]

I agree that it is a matter of courtesy. Yet, people treat others like it is mandatory. And that is something I dislike. If someone does not give reasons, then it's best to ignore it. They could say what they wanted to say, and discussion can turn around concrit, if given. But telling others to otherwise shut up goes beyond that.

[Obscure_Trash]

Maybe what is needed is to just have people report any rude posts to moderators

Yes please! I see many people here complaining about rude posts but I don't recall getting any reports on the news topic. Please keep in mind that we are human and even with a handful of us covering the news topic we can and will miss things. Reports are great! We'd rather receive a report we didn't take action on than miss a post that we should have taken action on but no one reported.

 

~

 

Now, as a user I don't understand the need to rush to crit a sprite that has just, moments ago, grown up. Being picked for a release is an extremely competitive thing, whether it is a normal release or a holiday release and I don't see a need to try and ruin the celebration for the artist, whether they're a new in cave artist or an old one.

 

I can understand being disappointed with a sprite and that the celebration may be slightly dulled for you and wanting to post how it may have been better, but I think we need to look at whether or not your post absolutely has to be said, especially right at that moment. Maybe it's just a small thing and we can remember no one is perfect. Maybe it's a big thing but it's not bugging many people and it can be saved until the rush of the new release has calmed down a bit. Maybe it can privately and politely be PM'd to the artist, so they can either look at the PM or not or save it for a time when they're off the rush of getting a release.

 

It does rather spoil the mood when someone comes along and posts a wall of crits of things wrong with your sprite. And yes, some of it may need to be said. However, for regular releases, most of the time, the sprite has been sitting in dragon requests or has been PM'd to a crapload of people for crits. The time to crit these dragons is when they're still being worked on and still in dragon requests. I know it can be daunting, but there are people in dragon requests who sit and wait for crit for days. The feeling of finishing - that accomplished feeling - it's great and the artists should get the chance to feel that. Please come crit when the dragon is still in the works! It will be better for the dragon, the artist, and you. Yes, there are some artists in dragon requests who do just stop listening to crit. You know what? They likely won't make it in cave. Just walk away and let them fall on their own. But there are also plenty of artists in dragon requests starved for critique. Their thread is full of bumps asking for critique. They get none. They finally call it done, finish their polishing, transparantize and gif their art, and ask a mod to move it. Only then do they get hoards of people coming in to point out the errors. It's frustrating as all heck. If you want to help with these, please go lurk in dragon requests! I'm not good at art, but through being a dragon requests junkie and lurking there and learning more about what should look like what and even reading tutorials when I tried to art, I've learned a lot. What happened? People came to me asking for crits. I became good enough to get promoted to help mod. Artists, real artists, have agreed with or expanded upon my crit.

 

As for secret releases - yes, they are not shown to the public, but often the artist does PM it to friends to ask for crits. Often these friends have shown to give good, solid critique in the past. I believe TJ has PM'd them the concept back sometimes asking for something to be fixed. I'm sure the artists are far more critical, not only because of the pressure of the limited time release and the fierce competition, but because they don't have the option for as much public critique. So, yes, critique and fixes do go on for secret releases, even if you didn't participate.

 

As a mod, while I don't like that some people always rush to immediately critique a newly released dragon, I do allow it because everyone is allowed an opinion. And I'm not sure how much good having a separate thread for critique would be. For one, it would be really hard to stop all critique in the news thread and keep it all in another thread. For two, now all the critique is separated from the praise and I feel critique is easier to take when placed with praise, whether praise from the person critiquing or the just another poster.

 

However, I am against having a bunch of different threads just for one release - like one in news, one in SD, and one in suggestions. It's just much neater all together. D|

 

Now, I have in the past simply gotten rid of posts that were simply derogatory or insulting rather than critique (ie "this is ugly," "how was this chosen," "man, this crap sucks") and I won't do it again. It's much better to warn so the user knows not to do it again, so it doesn't cause confusion in the news topic for people who think they posted and it's now suddenly gone, and artists and users have expressed that they feel this is censorship. With the posts deleted everyone assumed it was crit since they hadn't seen it and then to make up for this 'censorship' everyone started posting huge walls of crits, not all constructive, which was not only harsh towards the artist, IMO, but definitely ruined the mood of the release. I'd rather just receive reports, if people would be kind enough to send them.

 

While, as a user, I find it unnecessary to jump to critique a sprite so soon after a release and don't do myself, as a mod (and a user), I am for continuing to allow this on board, even if I wouldn't do it myself. Everyone is allowed an opinion and is allowed to post it and if people don't want to read it, they can skip over it. The critique doesn't have to be listened to or even read. As long as it's critique and not insulting, it's fine. :3

 

And, as a mod, what I do find unnecessary is when the news thread devolves into people arguing about whether a critique is allowed to be given or whether people are allowed to dislike a sprite or not. It's spam and creates drama. Just leave the critique alone and move on. On the same hand, a critique doesn't really need to be posted seven times on the same page. It's been said, trust me, it's been seen. ;3

 

Also, someone mentioned having some tips for artists on how to take critique in addition to the post on how to give critique. We at least used to have that, in the same post. However, to be honest, I've been meaning to overhaul that thread for a while. :3

Edited December 30, 2011 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Kelkelen]

I think we all need a break from the name-calling. Really, aside from the 4 or 5 negative comments that I thought toed the line, the worst stuff I saw with this release was a lot of words like "complainers," "whiners," "bootlickers," "shut-up-ers," and so on.

 

Please don't belittle other people's points of view. If someone thinks that criticism should be constructive, and that simple "I don't like it"s should not be directed straight at the artist -- they are not saying that a negative opinion is invalid, and they are certainly not telling you to "shut up." You're portraying them in a very negative light by insisting on that phrasing. We're trying to work towards a solution here, not polarize people into "say everything you think!" versus "don't say anything negative ever!" I truly don't hear anyone voicing themselves to be in either camp, but I hear a lot of accusations that both such sentiments exist.

 

I understand the viewpoint that the News thread should be for news only -- but moving the conversation to another thread will just put it in a different location. I imagine the exact same posts will occur, just under a different title. Still, that said, I don't actually think we need to change the rules. I *DO,* however, think that it would be very nice if people paid attention to the wants of the spriter -- if they want concrit, give it. If they don't, then why on earth do you still need to voice it? You don't have any right to "help" them to "improve" against their wishes, and I doubt it will have a good result in the end. You're more likely to hurt an artist's feelings and stop their ears to your comments, if they've already asked you to simmer down for the time being and you keep going. And yes, I understand that it's a free country and speech shouldn't be censored. That's why I don't see a need for a rule. I just think it's kind of mean and in poor taste to say "I'm helping you, it would do more harm than good for me to stay silent," when an artist does *not* want your input at that time.

 

WHY are you critiqueing the sprite? I think that's a question worth answering, for each of us. If you actually want/hope for the artist to *change* the sprite, then that's a) rather demanding, and much better addressed with a VERY polite PM to the artist themselves, if you really think you have grounds to do so. If you just want to help the artist, well -- pay attention to if the artist WANTS your help. If they don't, then believe me, no matter what you say, you aren't helping.

[_Z_]

Indeed. People should be able to point out everyone's flaws without regard to feelings. After all, how can people improve if they don't know what's wrong? Who cares about things like "bullying?" Just keep piling it on; let no blemish go unmentioned. Right? ...Right?

 

Wrong.

TJ posted this earlier. I think some of you might have missed it.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=5807965

Edited December 30, 2011 by _Z_

[silver_tiger]

...just wanting to toss my two cents into this thing...

 

I fully support constructive crit, and I don't know what to think about a lot of what has been said, but I think much of it comes down to word choice. Because of the fact that this forum is online, people can't hear the 'tone' which things are said in, and they will often read into words a 'tone' that the person who made that comment did not mean.

 

On that note, the thing that really bugged me about this whole situation are the people who were saying things like 'you should be grateful' or otherwise implying that EG's, or any other artist's, feelings were out of place or wrong.

 

I'm sure no one meant it that way, but again. Word choice and perceived tone. That's all we can have, in a forum like this.

[dothefreddy]

I think people should also keep in mind the age range of the user base and the fact that not everyone here is from the US and may be ESL. They may not be able to get their thoughts across more than "I don't like this" because they don't have the ability in English to do so.

[dragonpuck]

One of the thongs I most love about this site is the variety. Each dragon is different. each showcasing the artists individual perspective of how a dragon looks.

 

The only way to "fix " this would be to have one line art and simply do recolors----- that sort of thing has it's place but not on this site!

 

I don't understand the need to slice an artists work apart. perhaps because I can't draw a strait line, I can simply enjoy the "art "for it's own sake, some I like , some I don't.

 

 

There is no such thing as perfect!