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[stogucheme]

Excuse me.

 

Adults do not have every other place on the internet to discuss mature topics. I don't know how you use the internet and get that impression. The internet is full of immature, trollish, easily-butthurt types whose goal in life seems to be to destroy any semblance of mature discussion.

 

Like, try having a mature conversation about a Youtube video, or in the comment section of anything. Not gonna happen.

 

It's like a dinner party for the extended family. You and your family want to talk about mature things, but there are kids there all the time, so you want to have an "adults table" and a "kids table." However, you and a lot of other people in this thread seem to think that once the adults table is established, we'll invite the frat boys from down the road to come party with us as well.

Okay, I'm honestly sorry about this, but...I laughed when I read your response. Maybe I was too simple? In any case, where did I state that mature adults have spaces everywhere else?

 

My point was, this is a place where you don't have to deal with the mature topics. This is the silly place where we think up ideas for dragons, not the place where we discuss (example) Paterno's career. Some people need stress relief, a break from their life, and they get stressed out when they notice topics like that.

 

Kids especially don't want to deal with (another example) a religious debate, and I know a certain 11 yr old who literally cries when he hears/reads of one.

 

I know I want this to be a site that's fun and safe for everyone. A place where no one has to leave because this site isn't safe anymore.

 

For a further point, if you start the mature discussions, you'll get trolls just by default. They're attracted to stuff like this.

 

Also, this.  Here is a list of some PG-13 rated movies.  In terms of subject matter, DC should accept anything acceptable in those movies, or not call itself PG-13.  (Only in terms of subject matter, mind you.  Derogatory language and stuff should still be against the rules.

Um...you realize that they rate movies with non-het stuff higher than het stuff, right? The rating system is so ridiculously flawed it's not even funny.

[HeatherMarie]

Reminder:  Attack the topic and not each other.  Things need to simmer down drastically in here.

 

As for the alcohol restriction - Yes of course it is legal, if you are old enough.  My guess is that since most of our members are underage, a discussion about drinking and/or favorite drinks would likely result in some members inadvertently admitting to illegal activity.  Not a good thing.  Hence it's probably best to avoid such topics altogether.

But the polygamy thread is staying, as is the abortion thread, and both of those things could be illegal for underage members.... Your arguement doesn't really hold up. Is the Animal Abuse thread going to lead to members admitting they abuse animals? You've got a *lot* of assumptions and generalizations in your post that really don't add up at all.

 

 

stogucheme:

Kids especially don't want to deal with (another example) a religious debate, and I know a certain 11 yr old who literally cries when he hears/reads of one.

 

I know I want this to be a site that's fun and safe for everyone. A place where no one has to leave because this site isn't safe anymore.

 

I would think that, if someone isn't mature enough to read a religious debate, it would be *their* responsibility to not open the threads about religion. Or their parent's responsibility to track their internet habits. It's sure as heck not our responsibility to make sure that an 11 year old never sees anything that might possibly make them upset.

 

This site is plenty "safe", and I'm a bit confused why you even bring up that word. How it is not a "safe" site just because we discuss controversial and serious topics? If anyone shoots off their mouth or attacks anyone else, that person will get warned. And actually, I've seen a lot more attacking and meanness in DragonCave-related threads then in the serious threads in General Discussion.

 

Some people, like me, SCOUR the internet for one place, *any* place, to safely talk about certain topics. And when it comes to certain topics, DragonCave happens to be the *only* place I've found where I can actually express my opinions without getting a bunch of hate thrown in my face. Is it a little strange that I've found that on an adoptable-site forum? Yeah, it is. But why on earth is it so wrong/bad that we have those conversations in the first place? This forum is *not* just for kids. Many adults play this game too, and just like the kids want to talk about the video games or kid-stuff they like, adults want to be able to talk about stuff as well.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Marie19R

[skinst]

Kids especially don't want to deal with (another example) a religious debate, and I know a certain 11 yr old who literally cries when he hears/reads of one.

Generalising much? There are so called kids who come into those threads and debate quite happily, actually.

 

Your case? Said kid has the choice not to go into those threads. It's their own fault if they choose to look at a thread discussion that they know is going to do nothing but make them sad.

 

As for the alcohol restriction - Yes of course it is legal, if you are old enough. My guess is that since most of our members are underage, a discussion about drinking and/or favorite drinks would likely result in some members inadvertently admitting to illegal activity. Not a good thing. Hence it's probably best to avoid such topics altogether.

 

I have to agree with the others who have issues with this. You're basically saying that you're concerned that people are going to go out and do illegal stuff or admit to illegal stuff simply because a point of discussion exists.

 

That's like saying violent video games spur violence or prostitution being legal promotes infidelity. :/

[~!~]

Okay, I'm honestly sorry about this, but...I laughed when I read your response. Maybe I was too simple? In any case, where did I state that mature adults have spaces everywhere else?

I sort of figured you meant that. I'm wondering why it is so much more important for children to have websites they can go on than it is for adults who want to discuss things in a properly moderated area where they don't have to worry about idiots popping in all the time.

 

I'm not really in favor of changing the rules of GD very much. Just making it so that you can mention the existence of drugs and the like, rather than having to carry on a conversation as if everybody you are talking to is an easily impressionable child. And separating "let's talk about kittens" from "let's talk about sexism."

 

My point was, this is a place where you don't have to deal with the mature topics. This is the silly place where we think up ideas for dragons, not the place where we discuss (example) Paterno's career. Some people need stress relief, a break from their life, and they get stressed out when they notice topics like that.

This is exactly why it would be put in a separate forum.

 

Heck, I don't want anything to do with GD at all. I don't want to participate in any of the discussions there. That's why I stay in S&R.

 

For a further point, if you start the mature discussions, you'll get trolls just by default. They're attracted to stuff like this.

That's what the banhammer is for.

 

Um...you realize that they rate movies with non-het stuff higher than het stuff, right? The rating system is so ridiculously flawed it's not even funny.

Yes, yes, they also rate higher if characters are shown smoking. That was just supposed to be a general idea of things. Also, believe it or not, but there are people on this site who honestly disagree with and are bothered by homosexuality. We just going to ignore them because we disagree with them? Seems kind of silly to me.

 

Plus if the rating system is flawed, we shouldn't be using it and making up our own definitions for it. Even if we go by the basic definition of "only people 13 and older will be mature enough to handle all this content," we're still being too strict.

[stogucheme]

I sort of figured you meant that.  I'm wondering why it is so much more important for children to have websites they can go on than it is for adults who want to discuss things in a properly moderated area where they don't have to worry about idiots popping in all the time.

 

I'm not really in favor of changing the rules of GD very much.  Just making it so that you can mention the existence of drugs and the like, rather than having to carry on a conversation as if everybody you are talking to is an easily impressionable child.  And separating "let's talk about kittens" from "let's talk about sexism."

 

This is exactly why it would be put in a separate forum.

 

Heck, I don't want anything to do with GD at all.  I don't want to participate in any of the discussions there.  That's why I stay in S&R.

 

That's what the banhammer is for.

 

Yes, yes, they also rate higher if characters are shown smoking.  That was just supposed to be a general idea of things.  Also, believe it or not, but there are people on this site who honestly disagree with and are bothered by homosexuality.  We just going to ignore them because we disagree with them?  Seems kind of silly to me.

 

Plus if the rating system is flawed, we shouldn't be using it and making up our own definitions for it.  Even if we go by the basic definition of "only people 13 and older will be mature enough to handle all this content," we're still being too strict.

Because you're trying to turn a kids' site into a mature site. If you absolutely have to have it here- which I don't understand- at least label it with trigger warnings out to wazoo- even the seemingly harmless ones (if the link doesn't work, google 'define:trigger warnings'). Even just a simple, "Trigger Warning: Many Triggering Topics" would be fine.

 

Also, I'd label it 'Serious Discussion' rather than mature because that will cause the Forbidden Fruit scenario. (Hence why underage alcohol drinking is higher in the US than Europe.)

 

Banhammers only work if people don't have multiple accounts, but I dunno.

 

Um. I don't want to get into this discussion, but it's not ignoring them if we don't rate non-het couples higher than het couples. It's treating all couples equally.

 

How about, "these are the TWs (trigger warnings) and if you can behave maturely, go ahead and discuss what you want." That way there's no discrimination based on age, and no Forbidden Fruit.

Edited November 11, 2011 by stogucheme

[~!~]

Um. I don't want to get into this discussion, but it's not ignoring them if we don't rate non-het couples higher than het couples. It's treating all couples equally.

 

How about, "these are the TWs (trigger warnings) and if you can behave maturely, go ahead and discuss what you want." That way there's no discrimination based on age, and no Forbidden Fruit.

This issue can be extrapolated to any subject of debate, so I think it counts as on topic. The idea is that there are people on the site who do not agree that all couples should be treated equally--perhaps even that kids under whatever age shouldn't be exposed to anything pertaining to homosexuality. I've never seen it, but I assume there are also people on the site who think smoking should not be discussed around children. If we're going to bar some subjects from the forum, we have to take everybody's opinion into account. Obviously, if someone's in the minority, we might just ignore them (like, say someone thought turnips were a sensitive subject that shouldn't be discussed on the forums, we could probably ignore them) but until we have a good idea of a "community standard," we can't go around saying "oh well that's a bad system because it doesn't correlate with my values."

 

That seems reasonable. It's pretty much what people have been pushing for this whole time... just with different language.

 

EDIT: Plus, I don't think we have to have it here. If all but the first four forums in this site disappeared overnight, I don't think I'd even notice. I just think the people who do hang out in GD and who are being vocal about this have a point. *shrug*

Edited November 11, 2011 by ~!~

[Obscure_Trash]

Also, this. Here is a list of some PG-13 rated movies. In terms of subject matter, DC should accept anything acceptable in those movies, or not call itself PG-13. (Only in terms of subject matter, mind you. Derogatory language and stuff should still be against the rules.)

As you guys brought up when we used MPAA as a temporary explanation, a forum is not a movie. We can't really allow "just one or two lesser curses" or something. We cannot work on the same level as movies can. ^^

 

Those are monstrous generalizations and a lot of maybes. So an entire topic has to be shut down because of possible 'maybes' and the possibility of kids posting lies because they think drinking makes them 'cool'? Warn those kids for posting illegal stuff, and let us have our responsible discussion?

 

There aren't even any general alcohol topics around and we have still had troubles with this already. Because of the immense range in age here at the forums (I believe we've had forum members at least as young as eight or nine) and to mesh with the other guidelines, we have decided no alcohol discussions/topics.

[skinst]

As you guys brought up when we used MPAA as a temporary explanation, a forum is not a movie. We can't really allow "just one or two lesser curses" or something. We cannot work on the same level as movies can. ^^

True, but right now? The rules have been shifted to PG rating, not PG-13.

 

There aren't even any general alcohol topics around and we have still had troubles with this already. Because of the immense range in age here at the forums (I believe we've had forum members at least as young as eight or nine) and to mesh with the other guidelines, we have decided no alcohol discussions/topics.

 

Which is even more of a reason to make a debating/serious topics section, is it not?

[Fengari]

I was too lazy to go back in this thread to look for it, but I think I replied earlier about the 'mature section' that I didn't think it was needed.

Now I see what kind of topics are being banned from GD I'm changing my mind.

 

I'm not very active in GD but I lurk there. And I always thought it was an example of how serious topics could be talked about in a mature way, with a healthy portion of respecting other people's views. Of course there was the occasional troll, and the occasional too-explicit post, but I felt the mods were sufficiently on top of that.

 

I'm 35 years old, and I can say I really learned some interesting things there, especially in topics that are now getting closed. Biggest example are things about sexuality: I think it is very interesting to read real people's thoughts and feelings about things that are 'deviant' from what is considered 'normal sexuality'. I don't know people who are openly asexual, or transgender, and reading about it here gave me more insight in how life is like for people who are. In my opinion, developing an understanding for things like that can only be a good thing. Though I think it is good that the guidelines are more clear now, I mourn those topics.

 

As to the effect on children, I personally think it is good for children to learn about things like that, and broaden their horizon. Keeping kids walled in and sheltered is not preparing them for life. I'm not saying they should be exposed to everything, but I don't think the situation as it was before was problematic in that aspect. The more they learn about things like that, the more openminded they will grow up. Keeping all discussion about different sexual orientations from them 'because they are bad' is only telling them they shouldn't accept these orientations when they get older.

 

On top of that, if a child starts having feelings and thoughts that it discovers to be different from its peers, I think it must be a reassuring feeling to know that, though most people feel differently, they are not alone in what they feel. And isn't it a good thing if a child doesn't have to be greatly confused or even disturbed by it's own developing sexuality?

 

Which is why,now, I am in favor of a seperate 'serious business' section. It is a solution for the people who say they don't want (children) to stumble upon something serious like that when browsing through the completely innocent 'homework' and 'favorite color' topics, but it keeps this aspect of this community around.

I don't think it should have restricted access as long as it doesn't go further than topics that are now getting closed did before, but seperating these topics from the more innocent ones is a good way that people who don't want to be confronted with these topics, aren't.

[Fuzzbucket]

True, but right now? The rules have been shifted to PG rating, not PG-13.

 

 

 

Which is even more of a reason to make a debating/serious topics section, is it not?

And how do you keep the kids out ? I know, I know - parents should do it. But it only takes one angry parent pointing out what their kid saw here and the place gets shut down and we can't trade lineaged eggs any more.... Which is far more important to me HERE than trying to persuade someone that gays are just people too, although I feel very strongly about that.

 

ETA I strongly agree with Fengari about kids needing access to serious discussion, BTW. And I DO think it can be done without allowing us all to post about the illegal.

 

I can see the point of a section where you don't have all the rubbish stuff like "wot dragin wud u b if u culd ?" Like the sociopolitical subforum on another forum I am on - which doesn't show on the main menu by default, but where anyone can go if they choose - and SERIOUS stuff can be put there.

 

But I think the RULES are OK as they stand. At least can we see if they DO totally stifle things before we say no to them ?

Edited November 11, 2011 by fuzzbucket

[skinst]

Once again I'll emphisize that I am not trying to get around the rules.

 

You can't shut a forum down when its abiding by its own rules. If some parent comes in and has a hissyfit because their kid saw something in a PG-13 rated forum they didn't like, and that topic was PG-13 in nature, then it is not the forum's fault.

 

I will once again use GPX+ as an example. They have a debating section of the forum. It has not been closed down yet they are a PG-13 site too.

 

You're putting too much emphasis on a hypothetical scenario which legally holds no merit. A parent can't sue the forum when it clearly states what it's rating is.

[Fuzzbucket]

Once again I'll emphisize that I am not trying to get around the rules.

 

You can't shut a forum down when its abiding by its own rules. If some parent comes in and has a hissyfit because their kid saw something in a PG-13 rated forum they didn't like, and that topic was PG-13 in nature, then it is not the forum's fault.

 

I will once again use GPX+ as an example. They have a debating section of the forum. It has not been closed down yet they are a PG-13 site too.

 

You're putting too much emphasis on a hypothetical scenario which legally holds no merit. A parent can't sue the forum when it clearly states what it's rating is.

Once again I will say - I didn't suggest anyone was. But can't we wait and see how the new guidelines work out before blasting them as unworkable ?

 

I still think a separate serious section - but with the same basic guidelines - would work, too.

[skinst]

It's already been shown to be unworkable. >_<

[Fuzzbucket]

It's already been shown to be unworkable. >_<

Example, please ?

[skinst]

It's in the sticky thread.

[Fuzzbucket]

What - the one listing the rules ? That shows a lot of people don't like them, not yet that they won't work, once they bed down. Oh well. Time will tell, I guess.

[Nine]

I can see the point of a section where you don't have all the rubbish stuff like "wot dragin wud u b if u culd ?"

Just because you're not interested in topics like that doesn't make them "rubbish".

 

Anywho, I don't see the point in waiting and seeing how the rules play out, because uh... it's tightening of the metaphorical leash. There's nothing to see about it, it's what we can no longer see. I'm sure if the rules state that even mentioning illegal drugs will get you warned, you can expect just that to happen. Again, there's nothing to wait and see about.

 

I don't participate in a lot of the major GD discussions, but I do read them occasionally and these kinds of decisions worry me. DC has always been a very strict forum and heavily moderated for rudeness / trolls and the like... I truly didn't see a reason to get more strict.

 

I've noticed a lot more temp locking being done in debate topics. I wonder if that is what finally pushed the desire for rules to be splayed out? Egh, just warn the people who are deemed to be making the topic "heated" (which isn't necessarily a bad thing either).

[Nectaris]

See, what I think some don't realize is that the older members are feeling like they are being shut out of the forum completely with these new rules. Without something interesting for them to talk about, why hang around at all?

 

And the only response from other users is "find another forum". Yeah, that makes people feel very welcome indeed. I expect there probably will be a mass exodus because of this by some of the forums best members, and that GD will become practically dead. And all for protecting the kiddies who should have already been warned by the PG13 rating(which is meaning that it may not be ok for that 10 year old you are trying to protect). This forum is no longer PG13 though, under the new rules, though they keep the PG13 label. Do you understand why people are upset?

 

Quoting this:

 

So just for clarification, the implication here IS pretty much either stay away from the meat of the really controversial, fun to debate topics, or get warns and locked threads? This seems a little over the top to me. If you're going to leave certain threads open for discussion, do you really want to stifle any attempts at good argumentation if they involve things like that? GD is one of the only reasons I come to the forums. I come because I love having a forum that's so open about a wide range of topics that I can come and bounce arguments and opinions off of people who DON'T agree with me, unlike my friends in real life, and work on my argumentation and reasoning. It's great, I love it. But if I can't really do that anymore, I don't really see the point of GD :/

 

Because it is well said and I think it sums up a lot of member's feelings about this.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nectaris

[Fuzzbucket]

Just because you're not interested in topics like that doesn't make them "rubbish".

 

Sorry - you're right, except for the way the title is written up.... I should have said non-serious topics.

 

My evil.

[Oddsoxdi]

Would it be difficult to keep the list of where each dragon is somewhere where it will ALWAYS be? Maybe at the top of the list of threads in 'Help'? I wrote it down, but since I'm a designer, the state of my desk and the amount of papers covering it is in a constant state of flux. I've marched through SD but didn't find it (list blind I guess). So I think it would be a good thing if that list were always available to those of us with memory bank corrupted files.

 

Thanks.

[Fuzzbucket]

Would it be difficult to keep the list of where each dragon is somewhere where it will ALWAYS be? Maybe at the top of the list of threads in 'Help'? I wrote it down, but since I'm a designer, the state of my desk and the amount of papers covering it is in a constant state of flux. I've marched through SD but didn't find it (list blind I guess). So I think it would be a good thing if that list were always available to those of us with memory bank corrupted files.

 

Thanks.

What - the biomes ? Good idea - maybe Socky could add it to FAQ ? I use the wiki, but it is a bit tiring

[Oddsoxdi]

I found it semi-hidden in the FAQ on how to get eggs. It's THERE just not boldly so.

[Obscure_Trash]

I'm 35 years old, and I can say I really learned some interesting things there, especially in topics that are now getting closed. Biggest example are things about sexuality: I think it is very interesting to read real people's thoughts and feelings about things that are 'deviant' from what is considered 'normal sexuality'. I don't know people who are openly asexual, or transgender, and reading about it here gave me more insight in how life is like for people who are. In my opinion, developing an understanding for things like that can only be a good thing. Though I think it is good that the guidelines are more clear now, I mourn those topics.

 

As of right now, the sexual orientation thread is not being closed - only wiped.

 

~

 

Yeah, the biome info is not that obvious in the FAQ because, at the time, I did want to stick it somewhere, but wasn't sure where. I can certainly go make it more accessible. :3

[miladyz]

This is a response to the discussion going on in the PG-13 Guide, Conduct Reminder.

We are proposing a subforum for "mature" topics.

 

Here is the poll and discussion thread about the possibility:

 

Mature Topics Subforum: Do we need one?

 

Please vote in the poll and post your opinions. :3

[Khallayne]

As members seem to be bringing up the actions of one moderator into the feedback thread, I'm going to close this for a bit as I go look over what has been said.

 

Know that everything that has been closed is being looked in to, and your opinions are being considered and listened to. If you want to contact me about my closing this thread temporarily, PM me.

 

We don't allow users to go off discussing about one user in public like this, and I will not allow it for a moderator.