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[JOTB]

Personally I love concrit even on finished, released sprites. I want my art to be the best it can possibly be, and every bit helps even if it is a bit brutal and soul-crushing. A number of in-cave sprites have been updated, and that kind of stuff can also be helpful for future projects.

 

But I'm a bit leery of not letting people say "I don't like it." (and plenty of people collect sprites just to have them all, even if they don't really like them.) Sometimes something about a piece just clashes with you, whether it's technically perfect or not, and if you're putting art out to be used by hundreds of people you have to accept this.

Edited December 30, 2011 by JOTB

[Kanakha]

Like I said, constructive criticism isn't bad. Usually it's welcomed by most artists. We're not trying to go 'Totalitarian Tyrantism" with these suggestions. We're trying to cultivate some form of common sense during releases. Crappy attitudes saying "Meh I don't like it" or "Wow not what I was expecting. Bleh." (which is a paraphrase of what I did indeed see in the actual announcement) aren't really polite and kind, now are they? Obviously it doesn't need to be sugarpops and rainbow farts and flowers, but certainly there's a way to hold out on negative stuff /during/ holiday releases?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kanakha

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I think the point is that a release thread should be posted and locked.. discussion should be elsewhere.

 

If TJ gives us a new release, it means the sprite is FINISHED.. all the concrit, additions, changes, fixes whatever have already been done. It's over, done, finished, period! That stuff is only useful DURING the creation process.. once the sprite is released, all that's left is opinion.

 

That's where it gets touchy.. everyone has an opinion.. everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. but not everyone's opinion will agree with all other opinions.

 

Do I like all the sprites in the cave? No.

Do I like some sprites better than others? Yes.

Should TJ pull a sprite because 'some' players don't like it? No.

Should new sprites be discussed? Yes.

 

But that doesn't mean we should whine, rant and moan about the new release and try to get it changed. The time for that was while the sprite was being created... NOT when it's been released. Anything after the fact is pure opinion and should be taken with a healthy dose of patience. Don't take the negative opinions personally, because that's all they are, opinion.. just count up the good vs. bad and look at the overall picture.. and from what I see, it's mostly positive.. so be happy and just ignore the naysayers.. they just want to be heard, but nothing says you have to listen.

[Kanakha]

(@ Cinnamin)

 

[Banuk]

But that doesn't mean we should whine, rant and moan about the new release and try to get it changed. The time for that was while the sprite was being created... NOT when it's been released. Anything after the fact is pure opinion and should be taken with a healthy dose of patience. Don't take the negative opinions personally, because that's all they are, opinion.. just count up the good vs. bad and look at the overall picture.. and from what I see, it's mostly positive.. so be happy and just ignore the naysayers.. they just want to be heard, but nothing says you have to listen.

The problem with holiday releases, though, is that regular players don't get to crit them during their creation. Normal players don't even know they exist until they're released. No one got to give an opinion or criticism during the dragon's creation to help improve the sprite while it was being worked on. Of course the release of a holiday dragon is going to be heated...people wait all year for a new holiday dragon, have to fight every other player out there to snag one, and then, to some, when all is said and done it doesn't measure up to their expectations and what they've had to go through to get it. Most players, I'm going to assume, want a really, really, REALLY impressive and perfect new dragon for a holiday...especially Christmas, when users take time off from being with their families and friends to participate in the event.

[stogucheme]

In my opinion? The spriters worked hard to make dragons people would like, and should be praised for their effort. Note: I wrote effort, not how well they did, because that's rather subjective. Anyway.

 

What if, for the people who want to crit newly released sprites, there was a thread created called 'Sprite Crit?' You could post your stuff there, and if artist(s) didn't want to read it, they wouldn't have to. You also wouldn't be cluttering up the news thread. (I think it should be in S/R or SD, personally.)

 

Would that work for everyone?

Edited December 30, 2011 by stogucheme

[Kelkelen]

The problem with holiday releases, though, is that regular players don't get to crit them during their creation. Normal players don't even know they exist until they're released. No one got to give an opinion or criticism during the dragon's creation to help improve the sprite while it was being worked on. Of course the release of a holiday dragon is going to be heated...people wait all year for a new holiday dragon, have to fight every other player out there to snag one, and then, to some, when all is said and done it doesn't measure up to their expectations and what they've had to go through to get it. Most players, I'm going to assume, want a really, really, REALLY impressive and perfect new dragon for a holiday...especially Christmas, when users take time off from being with their families and friends to participate in the event.

Okay, so assuming the scenario you describe occurs... what is *constructive* about telling the spriter "I'm disappointed, it didn't live up to my expectations?"

 

I'm, again, NOT saying that there should be rules to ban such comments. I'm just questioning the motivation behind them, and if you have a certain goal in mind, how you might better achieve it.

 

Furthermore, it isn't like we all have a bill of player rights entitling us to give constructive feedback on sprites-in-progress. IF TJ wanted to, he could close the game to new spriters, close works-in-progress to all critique, and just give us new dragons sight-unseen for every new release. I think it's one of the amazing things about this game that the players *can* participate to such an extent. However, let's not take it for granted. No one is trampling on your rights by *not* letting you crit a holiday dragon during creation.

[stogucheme]

The problem is that no one was whining, ranting and moaning. *shrug*

 

This is where the 50% of the problem lies, not in people politely critiquing sprites, but in other people leaping on them and claiming that they were somehow 'bashing' the artist or whining or moaning, when every single post but three were polite and complementary, some just happened to contain a critique or two, in addition to the compliments.

 

In my humble opinion this is completely blown out of proportion. No one was actually rude, a couple (literally a couple) of posts were bordering on rudeness, one maybe even crossed it), point is that why are we going through all this drama when the absolute majority of posts were filled with glowing praise.

I do not mean to offend you, but what you have written contradicts what others have reported. Perhaps you did not read the posts that were offensive?

[Fuzzbucket]

I think the point is that a release thread should be posted and locked.. discussion should be elsewhere.

 

If TJ gives us a new release, it means the sprite is FINISHED.. all the concrit, additions, changes, fixes whatever have already been done. It's over, done, finished, period! That stuff is only useful DURING the creation process.. once the sprite is released, all that's left is opinion.

 

That's where it gets touchy.. everyone has an opinion.. everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. but not everyone's opinion will agree with all other opinions.

 

Do I like all the sprites in the cave? No.

Do I like some sprites better than others? Yes.

Should TJ pull a sprite because 'some' players don't like it? No.

Should new sprites be discussed? Yes.

 

But that doesn't mean we should whine, rant and moan about the new release and try to get it changed. The time for that was while the sprite was being created... NOT when it's been released. Anything after the fact is pure opinion and should be taken with a healthy dose of patience. Don't take the negative opinions personally, because that's all they are, opinion.. just count up the good vs. bad and look at the overall picture.. and from what I see, it's mostly positive.. so be happy and just ignore the naysayers.. they just want to be heard, but nothing says you have to listen.

Amen to Cinnamin !

[Dubious]

If everyone thinks that a release thread should be posted and locked, then fine.

 

However, it would be a real shame as it is a lot of fun to speculate and just enjoy holiday chat with everyone else in these release threads. Personally I don't see how moving the discussion to a thread in the 'Site Discussion' will make any difference. Critique is still critique and the artists are not likely to avoid or be able to resist a thread where opinons are given on their work, not matter what section it is in.

[Fuzzbucket]

No - but a release thread is a different thing; it's in NEWS, not in any sort of discussion area.

[earthgirl]

At least some of us artists will look at those threads when they feel like it and not have to have crits shoved in their faces when they don't want to see it. When we as artists will want to improve/update the sprites we'll take a look at the said topic to see what can be taken into consideration.

 

Personally I love concrit even on finished, released sprites. I want my art to be the best it can possibly be, and every bit helps even if it is a bit brutal and soul-crushing.

 

You probably like to see that, but I, as a different artist with a different personality, don't. :/

[_Z_]

We allow a certain amount of spammy chat in the news topics, that would not be allowed in SD. If members would prefer a topic in SD that follows SD guidelines? The news topic can easily be locked.

[skauble]

I'm sorry, skauble, but you are trying to justify the "shut up'ers" based on perception. But perception is subjective, and unless you can tell the intent, the poster should have the benefit of the doubt. Even if one thinks that a neutral worded comment was meant to disturb festive atmosphere, we can't disallow those comments based solely on assumption. Why should posters not be allowed to post because someone interprets it as hostile - without proof, I might add. It's reminds me too much of "if you aren't with me or against me". I know from your posts which I usually read with greaqt pleasure that you are not like this, but supporting the "shut up'pers" supports their attitude.

 

I'm sorry if it came across that way. I tried to be very clear that I don't think anyone should be telling people to shut up. You said that you failed to see how someone could think a given comment was rude and I merely explained why some people might see it that way. Seeing that perspective doesn't mean condoning every behavior someone chooses to take.

 

Frankly, I'll admit that, in regard to concrit, I kind of find the whole - people aren't going to being allowed to have their opinions thing to be slightly alarmist. There are forums all across the internet and places all throughout the real world where concrit is the expected form of critique. And the fact that it's being made out to be some kind of arduous burden to take an extra few minutes to add a little info to a post so that it can be helpful seems strange to me.

 

I guess, for me, it would be different if people just wanted to say they didn't like it and go their own way, but there's actually an expectation among a lot of players that either a. the sprite be “fixed” or b. that the same “problems” be avoided in the future. Having the expectation that the artists should take the time to change things or do them better but that we shouldn't take a few minutes a flesh out a helpful thought or two seems to be a slightly unbalanced load.

 

Do you think a community profits if the feedback does not display the true feelings of the playerbase? I certainly don't. There is an aphorism by Lothar Schmidt that goes: "Man soll sich nur auf etwas stützen, was Widerstand leistet:" Roughly translated, this means: "One should only seek support by something that gives resistance." What good is it if there is only positive feedback if people just pretend to like it and others don't bother to post? Is that what you want in a message board?

 

How does constructive criticism become “only positive feedback”? There's not just “I don't like it” and “I love everything about it” to choose from.

 

As for the discussion in general, I'd like to add that one of the problems that I think comes when discussions get transferred to other parts of the board like this is that I think we lose some of the original context. We're not talking just about someone mentioning that they don't care for X dragon. That happens. Much of this discussion started in regard to:

 

1. Whether it would be nice to have a place for this that isn't the holiday thread. Which wasn't about not letting someone have opinions, but rather relocating them so that we could have a place for folks who want to celebrate and a place for a constructive discussion since we've pretty much have demonstrated (for years) that those two things don't always live well in the same space.

 

2. What may and may not be helpful in situations where art quality and changes are actively being discussed.

 

No one is suggesting that people have to like all the sprites or give them nothing but positive feedback.

 

Also, quoting Thuban because I think she summed up a lot of things perfectly and the post was stuck at the bottom of the page on this quickly moving thread:

 

I'm not reading through the newest posts, but heres what i have been thinking.

 

In terms of my own work on the site:

 

Some people love the things i do some people hate them, thats fine, im picky myself. Some of the artists have a good idea of things i like and things i dont, but when i point them out I try to say one good thing for every bad thing i have to say.

 

For example: lets pick on the little swamp hatchy from the halloween event.

 

"I like the colors on it, and the idea is cute. It has some anatomy issues and some of the areas on it are a bit blurry. I would suggest using darker colors (here and here) and a brighter color (here)."

 

This is good crit, and these are what i look for when i ask for help on concepts. The adult wasnt getting anything useful when i was looking for crit and i had no idea how to fix, so i scrapped it.

 

"There doesnt seem to be enough contrast in colors, try using a brighter shade of green on the nose and chest. You might also want to try deepening the colors on the arms, its not quite obvious that there is grass hanging from the arms, its a bit blurry" <~~~this is a bit more direct, and can be taken wrong by the artist, however it gives exact issues  and explains the exact reasoning for the crit.

 

Example of bad/poor crit:

"omg that made me throw up in my mouth a little"  <~~this was said after doing a quick sketch up for something i wanted to experiment with. It wasnt perfect, wasnt meant to be, it was just to get a point across. However that comment upset me enough that i scrapped the concept completely and deleted all existance of it. Including the finished sprites i had at the time.

 

"your shading is bad, and you have anatomy issues" <~~this isnt as bad, but also isnt helpful. Sometimes being specific about where the exact issue is will help more than using a blanket statement. Where is the shading wrong? all over, or just on the far wing? Whats wrong with the anatomy? it would be a shame to go and change a bunch of lines only to find out a toe or finger was 2px over too far.

 

When giving crit I believe in being as clear as possible about the issues as well as the things i like about them. There is always a nice way to get the point across without being rude or overbearing.

[earthgirl]

We allow a certain amount of spammy chat in the news topics, that would not be allowed in SD. If members would prefer a topic in SD that follows SD guidelines? The news topic can easily be locked.

How about Suggestions?(this forum) Since it's mostly a suggestion topic, rather than a site discussion topic.

[Dubious]

Edit...this post is being taken completely the wrong way and offense taken where none was intended so I have removed it.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dubious

[stogucheme]

What if, for the people who want to crit newly released sprites, there was a thread created called 'Sprite Crit?' You could post your stuff there, and if artist(s) didn't want to read it, they wouldn't have to. You also wouldn't be cluttering up the news thread. (I think it should be in S/R or SD, personally.)

 

Would that work for everyone?

^Still suggesting this.

[Dubious]

^Still suggesting this.

Then you would be inviting criticism and you will get it big time. Far more then is currently given and maybe more then can be handled. At Christmas especially when thousands are looking at this new sprite. Much different from your average spriting threads that invites crits.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dubious

[stogucheme]

Then you would be inviting criticism and you will get it big time. Far more then is currently given and maybe more then can be handled. At Christmas especially when thousands are looking at this new sprite. Much different from your average spriting threads that invites crits.

By my understanding, there is already a lot of crit with no where to go but the news thread. This would at least relocate it.

[Thuban]

^Still suggesting this.

Its not a bad idea, however, there is the fact that people still wont necessarily be helpful or nice about what they have to say. In terms of earthy's sprite: I knew she was being picked on for some of the flaws, but those flaws werent what bothered me about them. She was perfectly understanding in regards to what i had to say (of course i said what i needed to in pm, i dont like stating things publically)

 

Every artist here i have ever done crits for knows i see the sprites differently than most people (due to being colorblind). Because of this, i tend to get a little more leeway when i have problems with describing what is wrong. I know that sometimes my comments sting a bit, but I also make it clear I'm not trying to be mean, just having issues with wording.

 

There have been times where no matter how hard i looked i couldnt figure out the placement of certain body parts. The seawyrms for example: when it was in progress, i couldnt for the life of me figure out where the head was. I could zoom it in forever, but just couldnt make out the head/face. It wasnt any fault of the artist, it was purely the colorblindness blurring it all together. I do believe the shading ended up changed a bit though once i brought up my concern about that.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think that if - on the first couple of days something I had sweated blood over - I was getting - as well as squee posts - posts saying everything that was wrong - I might get disheartened - as Thuban said - and give up on spriting. I realise Holidays aren't available for us all to comment on ahead of time - but we don't have to blast them right after we see them. I recall earthgirl saying "Oh I do hope you like them" while they were growing up. She minds what people think, and yes, crit can hurt. And yes, some crit has been plain nasty.

 

And I also seem to recall some posts after a release a while back saying - hey, I hated it when I saw it but now it's growing on me.

 

I think stogucheme has a good point.

Edited December 30, 2011 by fuzzbucket

[Fuzzbucket]

I am sure you are right.

 

Maybe what is needed is to just have people report any rude posts to moderators and therefore have them removed. Of the posts that I thought did cross the line, I noticed that they stayed there throughout.

Oops - hope you didn't think I was being rude to you. I just felt very sorry for her. I don't suppose the sprites are perfect - though I like them. And so does my grandson, who is furious that mine are grown up and he has DAYS to wait (he was busy catching up on past years first !) But still.... what in life is exactly the way we want it ? I wish the person who designed my cooker hadn't put the knobs where they did - but that was something I had to learn the hard way- they looked OK when I bought it

[LuckyFreckle]

Then you would be inviting criticism and you will get it big time. Far more then is currently given and maybe more then can be handled. At Christmas especially when thousands are looking at this new sprite. Much different from your average spriting threads that invites crits.

Jeebus.

 

I don't think the majority of us are saying that we want criticism banned. I've been reading the posts ever since they started on this subject, and it's like slamming my head into a brick wall. Some are arguing the exact same point over and over, and almost as if they are not reading the responses they get thoroughly.

 

Look, the suggestion is not to get rid of criticism, but simply move it to another topic that is not in the News area. It's a relocation, simple as that, and I don't necessarily think that it would be far more criticism, but probably the same amount that you would get in the release announcement. We would actually have to see what would happen, as I don't know the future and what will or won't happen with regards to this.

 

 

I had thought about getting into spriting, but I'm not sure overall if I want to. I create graphics, so I'm an artist in a different area. I appreciate criticism that points out flaws or mistakes, something I can change [granted, with graphics, it's a VERY easy fix, I'm sure it may be a little bit more difficult for sprites], but I don't appreciate, and can get a bit testy with those who say, "I don't like it." Well, why don't you like it? What don't you like about it? Color? Shading? Anatomy? It's not because they don't like it, it's because they didn't bother to tell me where I could improve, or what they don't like about it. I know that a piece of art is different to each pair of eyes, but the least that anyone can do is say why, even if it's something simple like "I just don't like the color green." Then I can take from that that it's not necessarily my art, it's just their aversion to the color. Some people don't like green, other people love it. All I can do is apologize for their dislike of the color and move on.

 

All that being said, I agree with relocating a thread where people can give their feedback on a new sprite, holiday or otherwise. I think primarily that news releases are more the place for announcing the release. Now, with regards to posting holiday events, or what's upcoming with a release, that sort of thing, should be kept open, because I've never really seen that much to alert anyone on those threads. Not that I can recall anyway. Sorry for the novel, folks.

[Dubious]

Oops - hope you didn't think I was being rude to you.

No, not at all.

 

I just hope we can all reach a solution that is agreeable to all and that future holiday releases will be free of the drama and upset.

 

xXAngelicEvilXx, I would love to agree with you, but posting a thread entitled 'Critique the new sprite' or something to that effect, will invite a LOT more criticism than the odd post with reserved critique in the actual release thread. My point being that I think this idea would exasperate the problem much, much further.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dubious

[Fuzzbucket]

No, not at all. 

 

I just hope we can all reach a solution that is agreeable to all and that future holiday releases will be free of the drama and upset.

Well - that's easy.

 

All we need is a sprite that EVERYONE likes. How hard can that be ???

 

 

PS My grandson is not allowed on here, but is behind me and says all we need is a sprite that looks different and lovely to everyone who sees it. Any spriters ready for that ?

Edited December 30, 2011 by fuzzbucket