We want Forum Feedback!

[Fuzzbucket]

And in a completely unrelated, probably soon-to-be-buried, post, I clicked the 'report' button to report a duplicate post and was greeted with the following message:Can the second paragraph be changed so that people aren't afraid to use the report button for other things, please? (Or is that all that's supposed to be for? Because mods have told me otherwise...)

I think it IS only for that - that's why we have the "delete" button above our posts. I love it

[stogucheme]

I think it IS only for that - that's why we have the "delete" button above our posts. I love it

Um...I meant 'report a duplicate thread created by someone else.' Sorry for the confusion.

Edited December 31, 2011 by stogucheme

[Fuzzbucket]

Um...I meant 'report a duplicate thread created by someone else.' Sorry for the confusion.

Ah. Those I think we ARE supposed to report. Fair enough ! I just put the word "duplicate" when I do that.

[Nine]

I'm afraid there are haters. (snip)

Haters gonna hate? No, you're right in that I have not been on the forums as long as others and wouldn't remember early incidents like that. But it has gotten better, right? I certainly don't see posts like that hanging around, since saying something to the effect of "hate so much I'm going to kill all of my x dragons and any one I see on the AP," is pretty exaggerated and obvious in its intention to get a rise out of people. Trolls gonna troll...

 

That and people are probably afraid of another Frill incident. Which actually brings about an interesting thought: are those who are so vehement against crit on sprites doing so because they feel a dragon may be pulled because of it? I hear a lot of fear about the retiring of sprites, I'm wondering if that (among other reasons) has unconsciously made users against the very idea of crit. Perhaps it is thought that providing unconditional praise will boost an artist's self confidence and prevent them from getting to that level.

 

This is all speculation of course, but there has to be a reason behind everything. These forums are sensitive about certain things, and whether it be from past experiences or paranoia I'm a bit curious to know where it came from. And how to fix it, make the place more relaxed and enjoyable for everyone =p

[tjekan]

As for your comment, 'if you can't take the crit, don't make your art public,' that's called bullying. Plain and simple.

This is getting really off-topic, but this statement of yours is not only inaccurate, it's actually really insensitive to people who have experienced real bullying (of whom there are undoubtedly several on this forum.) If you don't think anybody should offer a polite critique of another person's artwork on this forum, that's a totally valid point of view. But a polite critique is not comparable to bullying in ANY way. Bullying is a really serious problem that isolates people, makes them feel like misfits for being different, and systematically erodes their sense of self-worth. Nobody commits suicide because some stranger on the Internet says "I think the coloration on this picture you drew is a little too busy and would look nicer with fewer colors." If art critiques aren't welcome in the News forum then they're not welcome in the News forum, but they are NOT bullying-- and even the artists who may not want to deal with being criticized on ther forums here have repeatedly said that there's nothing inherently wrong with criticism (which is a good thing for them, since artists of any genre need to be able to accept and incorporate critiques, even ones much blunter than anything I've seen here, in order to succeed.)

 

TL;DR: art critiques are not bullying. You may think they're unnecessary, you may think they're ungrateful, you may think they have no place on this forum, but they're still not bullying.

[AngelKitty]

I made a post a little while back about not demonizing/anglicizing one side. (Sides being 'the people who gave crit' and 'the people reacted to it.') I specifically pointed out that both did bad things and good things. Neither is right or wrong, and we should stop forcing this dichotomy.

 

As for your comment, 'if you can't take the crit, don't make your art public,' that's called bullying. Plain and simple. It also limits freedom of speech/expression.

Here's an example for you. I could, if I wanted to, decide to critique every single aspect of every single thing you posted. Freedom of speech/typing, right? I could give you very polite and valid advice as to how you misspelled this word, or how your grammar was off, etc. I mean, if you didn't want me to do that, you wouldn't have posted online, in a public forum, right?

 

But...if I did that, and I told you that either you take the crit or leave, isn't that...limiting free typing as well?

"Explain what you don't like about the piece or shut up."

"Take the crit, toughen up or shut up/don't post your art."

Light bulb.

Except that by telling people that their opinions aren't welcome in a certain thread if they aren't all squee-positive, that IS demonizing one side. Specifically, the side who has a different opinion.

 

I said nothing about them not posting their art if they dislike crit. They can post all they want, but they should be prepared to accept that the public is going to react and comment on their art. It isn't the fault of those who make comments if the artist gets upset by said comments. Commenters can't control how artists reach to their comments.

 

Nobody on this forum is stalking artists specifically to attack their work, stop making it seem that way. Concrit isn't bullying. Saying "this sucks, you suck, this is rubbish" or other such things is bullying. If anybody were actually stalking artists and picking at every little thing they do, that would be bullying. Saying "sorry, but this isn't really my thing" or "I don't particularly care for this myself" or "this looks good but ___ could be improved" is not bullying.

 

I was a victim of bullying for many years. I think I know what it looks like.

 

By all means, go right ahead and pick at something I've posted, drawn or written, and tell me what you do and don't like. If you do it politely, it isn't bullying, it's a fact of life that not everyone is going to like what I do or agree with me and I accept this.

 

Edited because I accidentally had a sentence twice. Stupid phone.

Edited January 1, 2012 by AngelKitty

[thiefofhearts]

i feel as though i am talking to a brick wall. =/

 

because people keep dragging it back to make it all about the art; it's not all about the art. doesn't anyone read the posts from the beginning of the issue to the end? or at least one or two pages back?

 

separate threads are a terrible idea. wanna know why? when has "separate but equal" ever worked out? it doesn't. you are thinking that one thread has "good" opinions and the other thread has "bad" opinions but there's a problem with that- there is no such thing as a good or bad opinion. it also shows that even if you mean well, if you aren't complementing someone, you have a "bad" opinion.

 

oh wait, we don't mean bad, we mean concrit.

 

why would you set that up that way? why would you divide the forum like that? because as it stands, that what some people are asking for - make all the "squee" opinions go in one thread, and anything else goes into the "bad" thread - which makes those people posting look like they don't like the sprite, or are complaining when they are not.

 

basically this only reinforces that people who think differently on something than the majority have no right to speak in the forum, and that's kind of crappy. at it's very best, this idea says "ok, we will tolerate you people, barely, but only if you speak in hushed tones over in the corner and away from everyone else."

 

there's a problem with that kind of thinking and it should be addressed instead of being pushed to the side; not just for sprites being released but for any event, and even just general everyday posting.

[Fiona]

Actually, part of the problem with two threads for comments is, real concrit should always have some positive comment included, along with discussion of what the person thinks could be done better. So all a Squee thread is going to give you is all fluffy "I love it." without ways to improve, (though yes, of course tell me if you think I've done particularly well. I love pats on the back! *and don't we all?*) and all a "bad opinions" thread is going to give you is negativity. They aren't either really concrit.

 

 

Edited to add: the idea behind constructive criticism isn't confined to art. Any time you evaluate another persons ideas or writing or anything, you should use constructive criticism.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Fiona BlueFire

[Reidragon]

That and people are probably afraid of another Frill incident. Which actually brings about an interesting thought: are those who are so vehement against crit on sprites doing so because they feel a dragon may be pulled because of it? I hear a lot of fear about the retiring of sprites, I'm wondering if that (among other reasons) has unconsciously made users against the very idea of crit. Perhaps it is thought that providing unconditional praise will boost an artist's self confidence and prevent them from getting to that level.

 

This is all speculation of course, but there has to be a reason behind everything. These forums are sensitive about certain things, and whether it be from past experiences or paranoia I'm a bit curious to know where it came from. And how to fix it, make the place more relaxed and enjoyable for everyone =p

^ This

 

How many times have we heard threats from a couple of artists about pulling all their stuff for one reason or another?

 

Sometimes you have to wonder if it's because of the amount of pressure they are all under to make a sprite 'perfect'.

 

I love all the sprites on my scroll. Flaws and all. Each artist brings something unique to the table. Their own vision if you will.

 

I seriously think some of the negative attitude towards some crit comes from fear in a way.

 

People rag on a piece of art enough and yes some spriters may feel the need to pull it due to a unappreciative community. I'm not saying all spriters would do something like this. Or that any artist who did would be wrong in their decision. It's their art to do with what he or she wanted and I am sure we won't privy to the whole reason for such a decision.

 

I'm just saying that yes. I think that may be a real underlying fear for some.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Reidragon

[thiefofhearts]

yes of course fiona, you are right. what originally brought this back up from when the holiday topic was first locked was the amount of intolerance between members.

 

as stated, many times before, the example was only the holiday thread, the real subject at hand is the amount of censorship being applied, and whether there should be less, more or the same amount.

 

personally i think there should be less. that doesn't mean i don't think people shouldn't be polite- because there were a lot of polite people and there were a lot of people who did give concrit opinions, and some how, even people that flat out said they loved or like the sprite had their posts warped into completely different "interpretations". It's uncalled for and ridiculous.

 

that's the point when people are looking for trouble, and 10/10 times they will find it. =/

 

let's leave the white knights in the RPGs, please. this is not something that is unique to the holiday thread, either. that's why i think looking at the root source would be the most efficient way to handle the current situation as well as be a plan or guide for how to handle any future altercations.

[Obscure_Trash]

And in a completely unrelated, probably soon-to-be-buried, post, I clicked the 'report' button to report a duplicate thread created by someone else and was greeted with the following message:Can the second paragraph be changed so that people aren't afraid to use the report button for other things, please? (Or is that all that's supposed to be for? Because mods have told me otherwise...)

Reporting that something needs a mod action (poll deletion/completed request/warning/move/whatever) is fine. However, we have had people use the report function to insult mods or to try and PM mods or to complain about something that a mod did, which is what the quote is saying not to do. :3

[tjekan]

People rag on a piece of art enough and yes some spriters may feel the need to pull it due to a unappreciative community. I'm not saying all spriters would do something like this. Or that any artist who did would be wrong in their decision. It's their art to do with what he or she wanted and I am sure we won't privy to the whole reason for such a decision.

This is another good point.

 

I think it's worth noting that both in this case and in the Frill Fiasco, the artists involved have stated that there was other, non-public-forum drama that had been bothering them and that reading random negative comments on the forum was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the cause of their distress. (Earthgirl specifically said that what originally upset her was spriter stuff most of us weren't privy to, and Lythiaren recently stated something similar about the whole frill-spriting process being upsetting.)

 

I'm sure we've all been in this exact situation before-- once you start feeling stressed and unhappy, 50 positive comments are not enough to offset one minor negative one. I know I sure have. I've had really unproductive days at work because I've been unable to face one more complaining email. I've come home feeling defeated and snapped at my husband. If I had any writing-- or art, if I were an artist-- up for critiquing during those times, I would have pulled it down. We've all had days like that.

 

The problem really is that although I could expect my husband or even my coworkers to notice my mood and tiptoe around it, it's effectively impossible for anyone to do the same over the Internet. New rules wouldn't help. Segregating posts wouldn't help. Suppressing opinions wouldn't help. Some days just suck. If it sucks for reasons that most people on the forums couldn't possibly know about, then I just don't think there's anything we as a community could possibly do about that, because from my experience at least, it wouldn't matter if criticisms were impeccably polite or not, or if they were offset by dozens of adoring posts or not, or if hordes of other users decided to leap to my defense or not. When your day sucks and you're out of energy to deal with anything you don't want to hear, that's just the way it is. I have total sympathy for an artist who finds him or herself in that situation, but I really don't think making a forum rule requiring people to only put "positive" remarks in the new release thread is going to either make them feel better or, in the long run, be any good for the forum or the community.

 

YMMV, though. Happy New Year, everyone!

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm sure we've all been in this exact situation before-- once you start feeling stressed and unhappy, 50 positive comments are not enough to offset one minor negative one. I know I sure have. I've had really unproductive days at work because I've been unable to face one more complaining email. I've come home feeling defeated and snapped at my husband. If I had any writing-- or art, if I were an artist-- up for critiquing during those times, I would have pulled it down. We've all had days like that.

Yes indeed - and gauging someone's sensitivity on the net is tough too. There are hair-trigger things for me that would send me into a spin if they were aimed at me on line - and how would you all know why I went ape on you ? Which is why - IMHO - we have to be MORE polite and careful of what we post on line than we are in real life - because we never know until too late what damage we may do. There are people who have killed themselves over what appear to others to be perfectly harmless jokes on line.

 

The problem really is that although I could expect my husband or even my coworkers to notice my mood and tiptoe around it, it's effectively impossible for anyone to do the same over the Internet. New rules wouldn't help. Segregating posts wouldn't help. Suppressing opinions wouldn't help. Some days just suck. If it sucks for reasons that most people on the forums couldn't possibly know about, then I just don't think there's anything we as a community could possibly do about that, because from my experience at least, it wouldn't matter if criticisms were impeccably polite or not, or if they were offset by dozens of adoring posts or not, or if hordes of other users decided to leap to my defense or not. When your day sucks and you're out of energy to deal with anything you don't want to hear, that's just the way it is. I have total sympathy for an artist who finds him or herself in that situation, but I really don't think making a forum rule requiring people to only put "positive" remarks in the new release thread is going to either make them feel better or, in the long run, be any good for the forum or the community.

As I say - the way to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone here is to think harder before we post. I was once TOTALLY misunderstood in GD here. I REALLY upset someone. And actually we were on the same side ! But - this was a simple differing use of words - US vs UK as I recall. WE DO have to be careful when we DON'T actually know people - and most of us here don't actually know each other. You don;t KNOW someone on line, however much you thing you do. I've met a lot of people I thought I knew on other forums - and they weren't what I expected at all !

 

YMMV, though. Happy New Year, everyone!

 

Yes indeed. New start ????

[Cinnamin Draconna]

All other things aside, I'm still in favor of News topics being posted and locked.. and having a discussion thread for the topic in SD.

 

Why? My primary reason being that I don't like being distracted from the actual News. And if there is an update from TJ later and he decides to make a new post instead of updating the OP, I don't have to search thru 50 pages of chatter to find it.

[Fuzzbucket]

All other things aside, I'm still in favor of News topics being posted and locked.. and having a discussion thread for the topic in SD.

 

Why? My primary reason being that I don't like being distracted from the actual News. And if there is an update from TJ later and he decides to make a new post instead of updating the OP, I don't have to search thru 50 pages of chatter to find it.

This too. A news thread is a news thread, not a discussion thread.

[Syphoneira]

Personally, I liked our being welcome and able to participate, at least to that extent, in the actual News event thread, rather than being relegated elsewhere to comment on a take-it-or-leave-it announcement from distant management.

 

I feel that being able to do that - or not - says a lot about the site and our place in it.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2012 by Syphoneira

[Fuzzbucket]

Personally, I liked our being welcome and able to participate, at least to that extent, in the actual News event thread, rather than being relegated elsewhere to comment on a take-it-or-leave-it announcement from distant management.

 

I feel that being able to do that - or not - says a lot about the site and our place in it.

It's not so much the participation side of that that I am getting at, myself - it's that we sometimes miss actual NEWS bits among the commentary - and that can be very awkward. I seem to recall some info about the tree decorating being missed by a lot of people because of people talking about the pretty decorations - I THINK that was how come some people missed that they need to go back and redo their trees after the glitch. And that was just awful for those who didn't know. I don't think that's a being unwelcome thing, just a practical one.

 

I've nothing against Event threads - but news is - well, facts, like when it's on the TV !

[Nine]

I think that problem could be addressed by TJ simply updating the first post-- or perhaps reserving the second post for updates throughout the event/release.

 

Tues Dec. 12:

- Fixed a bug with decorations appearing as blank boxes

 

Friday Dec. 15:

- Fixed a glitch involving wreaths: All wreaths were cleared. You will need to go back and redecorate your wreaths.

 

Might not even be required for anything outside of Halloween, Christmas, and Easter.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think that problem could be addressed by TJ simply updating the first post-- or perhaps reserving the second post for updates throughout the event/release.

 

Tues Dec. 12:

- Fixed a bug with decorations appearing as blank boxes

 

Friday Dec. 15:

- Fixed a glitch involving wreaths: All wreaths were cleared. You will need to go back and redecorate your wreaths.

 

Might not even be required for anything outside of Halloween, Christmas, and Easter.

I agree in principle. In practice, I think TJ DID go back and put a note in the first post. But it's amazing how many people don't think to look there and trawl through the whole thread instead. Sure - but silly of them. But you have to feel sorry for people whose trees fell apart after they thought they were done....

[ferdelance]

The main thing that comes to mind at the moment would be the trading subforum for site discussions that was planned a while back.

 

I think this is my biggest issue with the forums -- the single "trading" thread of 43-odd pages is just so unwieldy to me that I never trade here, thus depriving myself of a bunch of potential trading partners, and also depriving a bunch of forum users (including, I'd guess, large numbers of newbies) from getting any of my eggs.

 

 

Other than that... I don't use the forums for RP or general discussions, so I wasn't really aware of the "All Chatter is Banned" rule until I started reading the comments to this post! It does strike me as very odd and unpleasant, though. (The only other forum I hang out on regularly is likely somewhat smaller, but they're generally a great group of people and the rules are pretty well looked after by the honour system; so hearing about mods leaping in to freeze posts on account of "drama" makes me want to never, ever enter a discussion here. Assuming that people even DO have discussions here, anyway; because now it's sounding like that's forbidden even without drama?)

Edited January 4, 2012 by ferdelance

[Kerolovesgunpla]

The one thing I really don't like about this forum is the moderators themselves. As the post before me said, they jump into action too quickly to stop drama, and this causes of angery and upset users who could have stopped the "drama" themselves. I also don't like how the moderators 1. take away freedom of speech

and 2. Act like they own this forum, but really we, the average users, do. Without us this forum, and dragon cave itself, would be nothing. I hope to see the moderators relax and take some time to think through there decision before jumping into action guns (power to warn and ban) blazzing all guhng ho.

[hksherra]

I'm fairly new to these forums but hang out on various other forum websites. I also find the Dragon Cave forums strangely restrictive, especially the ban on "off topic" chat. It really seems to disrupt some very interesting conversations, as well as limiting camaraderie while it is so stringently enforced.

[Obscure_Trash]

To point: 1. As a forum we are allowed to 'censor' what we want. As moderators, we must uphold the forum rules. If you would like to suggest a change to the rules, you may, but if something is against forum rules, we have the right to censor it (ie, forum censored words). Sometimes we remove posts because, even if we have taken care of the post, it is still causing drama or is still being regularly reported.

If you would like to see things done differently, how about suggesting them? Things users have suggested in this thread have been taken into consideration, such as more merging instead of closing duplicates and PM'ing when warned. However, if you don't suggest anything specific, there's not much we can do to help.

I will also say, some of the 'restrictive' things we may do are by member request. Certain things do annoy members and we have noticed it as mods, and so try to moderate to suit this.

 

I'm fairly new to these forums but hang out on various other forum websites. I also find the Dragon Cave forums strangely restrictive, especially the ban on "off topic" chat. It really seems to disrupt some very interesting conversations, as well as limiting camaraderie while it is so stringently enforced.

 

We have the IRC for chat (and allow the CPA in forum games as one chat thread). However, the forum isn't designed for chat. We are a large forum. Chatter in thread not only makes searching more difficult, it also spams up topics, making them bigger, and making the forum laggier. The IRC's purpose, however, is chat, which is why we have an official IRC chat. We also have the PM feature. Usually, when users are asked to use the PM feature they respond along the lines of it not being worth it, as they are just spamming for post count. :3

Edited January 5, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Kanakha]

I also find the Dragon Cave forums strangely restrictive, especially the ban on "off topic" chat. It really seems to disrupt some very interesting conversations, as well as limiting camaraderie while it is so stringently enforced.

No. If you want strangely and unnecessarily restrictive, try BZPower Forums. Compared to BZPF, DC Forums are a safe haven, not even exaggerating. The mods here do what is necessary to keep the peace. If it means asking people to calm down in a crazy thread, or removing posts because of offensive content, then...well...that's a moderator's job. If people want to chat off topic, then there's the IRC for that. Like SockPuppet said, these forums weren't specifically designed for chat anyway. If something strays too far from the subject at hand...logically the mods would want to round people back up to the topic of the thread to avoid it becoming spammy, right?

 

As for Kerolovesgunpla's comment about us (the users) owning the forums...sorry, but also, no TJ actually owns them, and reserves the right to run them as he pleases. If some people don't like that...well then I don't know what to tell you. He's not a tyrant, and neither are the mods. Without them, peace would not exist here.

 

/shot

 

(Edit for mods: Sorreh for longpost not specifically relating to forum feedback, just needed to get that out there )

Edited January 5, 2012 by Kanakha

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm fairly new to these forums but hang out on various other forum websites. I also find the Dragon Cave forums strangely restrictive, especially the ban on "off topic" chat. It really seems to disrupt some very interesting conversations, as well as limiting camaraderie while it is so stringently enforced.

I am on many forums where the rules on OT are far more stringent than here - on one, there was none, but discussions became so confusing, we all agreed we would rather have restrictions !

 

And I could not agree less with Kerolovesgunpla. I have found the mods perfectly charming and reasonable in the face of some fairly nasty from some members. I have been warned several times and all were fair cop. There have been a number of instances I have watched with horror here where the offending members would have been banned in EVERY other forum I am on - and the mods handled it with taste and patience while taking personal insults on the chin. I have also reported others (not for going for me - I always find that hugely amusing, because I am warped - but for being unkind to others) - so please note Socky's post, pointing out that sometimes they act because a member has asked them to. They do indeed.

 

Moderating is a nasty and thankless job, and believe me, if they were as rigid and rigorous as some here paint them - I can think of about 50 members who would have been banned already elsewhere. I'll tell you one BIG thing. There are vanishingly few forums where a thread like this would even be allowed. Almost nowhere allows you to comment on moderating action, never mind on individual mods.

 

So - dear forum feedback thread- I would like to pay TRIBUTE to these hardworking longsuffering evil nannies. (can the guy mods be called nanny ? Well, they can now !)

 

Edited for typefail because I am overcome with FEELINGS

Edited January 5, 2012 by fuzzbucket