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[Syphoneira]

I think one factor overlooked is that this is a gaming site, and people are likely not directing anything at an artist when they express their liking for, or dislike of, a sprite that comes out.

 

Certainly, nobody wants anyone's feelings hurt, and particularly not those of an artist who has volunteered time, skill and effort toward a sprite for the Cave, but this is a collection of gamers of all ages, not of artists/artistic people capable of concrits or necessarily even thinking of anything but their personal reaction to something that affects them one way or another in a game.

 

Granted, I've not had much time for DC of late (*sobs* lol) and have been unable to do my usual reading of virtually everything on Holiday/New Release threads, but it seemed to me that some posters are presenting anyone expressing disappointment with a sprite as people attacking an artist's work, and I honestly do doubt that that's the way these people would have thought of it.

 

It's a difficult situation, because we all do have different tastes and expectations so that not everyone in any large group is likely to be universally pleased to the same extent or perhaps at all with any given sprite - and their first impressions are likely to be expressed on threads relating to the newly-Released sprite in question.

 

And that's going to happen every time, as it does.

 

Yet somehow there always seem to be people expressing the idea that disappointed commenters are attacking an artist rather than expressing how they feel about a game piece, and that seems to me to be what makes it appear to be personal - thereby hurting the artist's feelings rather than being taken as simply the reaction of any particular player to a part of a game that affects them - rather than the intentions of the people doing so.

 

 

Just sayin'...

[stogucheme]

I think one factor overlooked is that this is a gaming site, and people are likely not directing anything at an artist when they express their liking for, or dislike of, a sprite that comes out.

 

Certainly, nobody wants anyone's feelings hurt, and particularly not those of an artist who has volunteered time, skill and effort toward a sprite for the Cave, but this is a collection of gamers of all ages, not of artists/artistic people capable of concrits or necessarily even thinking of anything but their personal reaction to something that affects them one way or another in a game.

 

Granted, I've not had much time for DC of late (*sobs* lol) and have been unable to do my usual reading of virtually everything on Holiday/New Release threads, but it seemed to me that some posters are presenting anyone expressing disappointment with a sprite as people attacking an artist's work, and I honestly do doubt that that's the way these people would have thought of it.

 

It's a difficult situation, because we all do have different tastes and expectations so that not everyone in any large group is likely to be universally pleased to the same extent or perhaps at all with any given sprite - and their first impressions are likely to be expressed on threads relating to the newly-Released sprite in question.

 

And that's going to happen every time, as it does.

 

Yet somehow there always seem to be people expressing the idea that disappointed commenters are attacking an artist rather than expressing how they feel about a game piece, and that seems to me to be what makes it appear to be personal - thereby hurting the artist's feelings rather than being taken as simply the reaction of any particular player to a part of a game that affects them - rather than the intentions of the people doing so.

 

 

Just sayin'...

I understand what you wrote. People don't intend or maybe even think about the effect their comments have on the artist.

But intent isn't a magic wand that erases the consequences of their actions. In an extreme example, a person may not have meant to run over your dog, but that won't bring the dog back to life.

The fact that these comments have hurt the artists is what needs to be addressed.

[DarkEternity]

A couple of things:

I guess it all comes down to courtesy. But if the sprite is going to be used and seen by people, I can't exactly say that /everyone/ is going to like or criticise it. Simply put, there have been and I have SEEN people literally tear art apart to pieces. And professional artists too! And professional writers! And people who slighted each other on the radio, people who made racial slurs, and good digital citizens who LITERALLY sent /death threats/ to a person on Youtube because a video was removed!

 

On one hand many comments came very close to bullying. On the other hand, if the artist says that they don't want critiques, I'm sorry, but you simply can't stop anyone from critting. Unless you live in China. And they can only do it TO AN EXTENT. The brutal truth is, either take it on board or ignore it.

 

And in my opinion, 95% of people do not criticise and will always tell you that your work is wonderful.

The other 3.5% will say outright they dislike it, and may give some superficial reasoning.

The other 1.5% will say they dislike it and give some thorough reasoning.

Then people who don't know what kind of opinion they have, act like sheep and parrot the opinions of others. Cue the pile. (and excuse my cynicism, but unless people ask me for bare crit without sugar coating, I literally drip sucrose. 1) Because I'm lazy. 2) Because I don't want to sound like an ignorant , since I'm obviously not a good artist and will NEVER be that good. 3) Because I don't want to hurt that person's feelings. And nobody, has EVER asked for my honest opinion for anything at all. What I'm trying to say, it is practically impossible to cover every single little thing that has gone wrong with a sprite in private :/)

 

It would be very nice if we all listened out for each other's wants, but being the cynical person I am, the only way we'll get what we want to hear is if:

1) You moderate every comment on the News forum. (Like, you don't display ANY bad comments or critiques)

2) You frighten everyone so badly they are to afraid to comment what they actually think (which is what dictators do in real life).

 

EDIT: (oh gosh, I really can't keep my stupid mouth closed, can I?)

 

I'm alright with the fact one day I'll get killed for my opinions. (In fact, mother is quite certain that I simply WILL)

 

As for the imaginary middle ground, not only do I not believe in that crap, I absolutely abhor that crap. There is no imaginary middle ground... that's the delusion that 'democracy' gives you or the hypocrisy of democracy if you like it...

 

There is either freedom of speech, or there isn't. If one removes/censors parts of any comment or critique, or some or all or moving parts of conversation I will tell you honestly that is NOT freedom of speech.

 

Lots of people love it, lots of people hate it. Fans claim everything has ruined everything forever. People debate whether chairs are for sitting (did I mention there's an article on TVtropes for that?)

-> (*starts ranting off topic). [/end rant]

 

I think it's simply time for me to do my homework now, and take my amoxicillin before my brain burns up due to fever or something like that.

 

Edited December 31, 2011 by DarkEternity

[AngelKitty]

I'm all for locking announcement threads to keep out the talk. It would make important updates easier to find, and I would be fine with having a separate thread in site dscussion for talk about announcements.

 

However, I can NOT get behind making announcement threads praise-only and moving all "negative" talk to a separate thread. No. You either move ALL of the opinions, or move none of them. One person's opinion on liking or disliking a pixel dragon is not better, more important, or less valid than anyone else's and we shouldn't be segregating them as if they are, whether the spriters, mods, TJ, or anyone else likes those opinions or not.

[LuckyFreckle]

I'm all for locking announcement threads to keep out the talk. It would make important updates easier to find, and I would be fine with having a separate thread in site dscussion for talk about announcements.

 

However, I can NOT get behind making announcement threads praise-only and moving all "negative" talk to a separate thread. No. You either move ALL of the opinions, or move none of them. One person's opinion on liking or disliking a pixel dragon is not better, more important, or less valid than anyone else's and we shouldn't be segregating them as if they are, whether the spriters, mods, TJ, or anyone else likes those opinions or not.

What I've been suggesting (and I'm assuming others here as well) is moving all comments, whether positive or negative to a new area, and letting the News topic regarding the release be locked.

 

Cinnamin made a fantastic point. News is news, Suggestions are Suggestions and Site Discussion is Site Discussion. I agree with her points. I will agree with most of SPS's points with the exception of having it all in one place. I see the announcements of new releases in the News areas as very cluttered with a bunch of different posts. Positive, negative, off-topic, arguments, and drama. Granted, you'll probably have that if you made a thread specifically for new release reaction, but at the least, in my opinion of course, the news thread should be there for celebration, while all the reactions, whether positive or negative, should be in its own place.

 

All of this is of course, my own opinion and may not be shared by others.

Edited December 31, 2011 by xXAngelicEvilXx

[stardust13]

Actually, I have a question/request - how come there isn't a place on the forum where each individual dragon breed has a discussion topic?

 

I'm thinking that it would be nice to have a topic pinned to the start of the Site Discussion forum called "Cave Dragons" or "The Dragons" or something, and each available cave breed is given its own topic under that.

 

The first post for a dragon could be informative, giving the dragon image(s), Alts, description, BSA, Cave debut and Spriter. And then people could comment at-will about the dragon there.

 

If there's worry over the work involved, you could ask for volunteers to build the text of the first post from a template and they could submit their text to the appropriate maintainer mod. And then threads for dragons that have already been created could be merged with the new post into the new pinned topic.

 

So, is there a reason the forum doesn't have something like this? I think it would be helpful, but maybe I'm missing some crucial point...?

[LuckyFreckle]

Actually, I have a question/request - how come there isn't a place on the forum where each individual dragon breed has a discussion topic?

 

I'm thinking that it would be nice to have a topic pinned to the start of the Site Discussion forum called "Cave Dragons" or "The Dragons" or something, and each available cave breed is given its own topic under that.

 

The first post for a dragon could be informative, giving the dragon image(s), Alts, description, BSA, Cave debut and Spriter. And then people could comment at-will about the dragon there.

 

If there's worry over the work involved, you could ask for volunteers to build the text of the first post from a template and they could submit their text to the appropriate maintainer mod. And then threads for dragons that have already been created could be merged with the new post into the new pinned topic.

 

So, is there a reason the forum doesn't have something like this? I think it would be helpful, but maybe I'm missing some crucial point...?

I think that's a wonderful idea. There are lots of dragons, so it may be an issue of forum space, I guess? I know that TJ and the Mods like to keep the forums relatively clean and uncluttered. I don't know really if there's a limit of space on forums.

[Kelkelen]

Cinnamin made a fantastic point. News is news, Suggestions are Suggestions and Site Discussion is Site Discussion. I agree with her points.

I understand the reasoning, but it won't actually change anything. If the News thread becomes solely for News, and locked to public comments, and the newly-released-dragon-discussion is posted elsewhere, the SAME conversations are going to happen, just in a different thread.

 

It may still be a good idea, if only so that people don't miss important News updates, but really, I don't think it would alter much. If anything, News items like "Wreaths are being locked" or "Here is the timetable for the Christmas Holiday events" could each easily have their own small post/thread, locked, like a poster announcing information. But everyone will still want to chatter and comment and squee over new sprites, so they'll just do it in a thread with a different title.

 

No need to change the rules regarding what you can and can't say, I think. This last time, nothing much *happened* -- Z shut the thread for a cooldown shortly after the comments that anyone might have reported, before people even reported them. I feel like we're discussing points of basic courtesy, but that's not something we can really enforce/evaluate, except to report blatantly rude or disparaging posts. I honestly think there were more troubles between posters (what with the name-calling of people who either praised or criticized the sprite) than there were with the critical comments about the sprite itself!

 

I'd like to offer yet another hypothetical scenario: If you go to an art gallery, to walk through the exhibitions, you might talk with your companions about what you like and don't like, and why. But if you go to a free art show opening, and the artist themself is there and opens the floor for comments, would you really raise your hand and say to their face "I don't like it, I'm disappointed in your work?," or "I'm not impressed, I expected more?" It's not really the time and place, you know? Nor is it courteous.

[Syphoneira]

I understand the reasoning, but it won't actually change anything.  If the News thread becomes solely for News, and locked to public comments, and the newly-released-dragon-discussion is posted elsewhere, the SAME conversations are going to happen, just in a different thread. 

 

It may still be a good idea, if only so that people don't miss important News updates, but really, I don't think it would alter much.  If anything, News items like "Wreaths are being locked" or "Here is the timetable for the Christmas Holiday events" could each easily have their own small post/thread, locked, like a poster announcing information.  But everyone will still want to chatter and comment and squee over new sprites, so they'll just do it in a thread with a different title. 

 

No need to change the rules regarding what you can and can't say, I think.  This last time, nothing much *happened* -- Z shut the thread for a cooldown shortly after the comments that anyone might have reported, before people even reported them.  I feel like we're discussing points of basic courtesy, but that's not something we can really enforce/evaluate, except to report blatantly rude or disparaging posts.  I honestly think there were more troubles between posters (what with the name-calling of people who either praised or criticized the sprite) than there were with the critical comments about the sprite itself! 

 

I'd like to offer yet another hypothetical scenario: If you go to an art gallery, to walk through the exhibitions, you might talk with your companions about what you like and don't like, and why.  But if you go to a free art show opening, and the artist themself is there and opens the floor for comments, would you really raise your hand and say to their face "I don't like it, I'm disappointed in your work?," or "I'm not impressed, I expected more?"  It's not really the time and place, you know?  Nor is it courteous.

 

 

But in these posts, are people really addressing the artist(s), or just expressing their reaction to the new sprite on their scroll?

 

The thread is not labelled as 'comments to the spriter(s) but the Holiday/New Release thread...

 

 

 

Edit: it's the only public forum everyone goes to and sees.

 

So, yes, a locked Announcement thread and a separated Site Discussion thread would take all related comments out of News - and also give the forum more of a 'take-it-or-leave-it' feel rather than a participatory one.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Syphoneira

[tjekan]

However, I can NOT get behind making announcement threads praise-only and moving all "negative" talk to a separate thread. No. You either move ALL of the opinions, or move none of them. One person's opinion on liking or disliking a pixel dragon is not better, more important, or less valid than anyone else's and we shouldn't be segregating them as if they are, whether the spriters, mods, TJ, or anyone else likes those opinions or not.

Yeah, this.

 

I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous to equate "having an opinion that is not 100% positive" with "bullying." "Bullying" would be if a group of users went around ganging up on a particular poster in various threads, using harrassing tactics like name-calling, personal attacks, malicious gossip, verbal baiting, etc. I think by this day and age, we all know what cyber-bullying looks like, and it doesn't look like one person here or there saying "This piece of artwork you drew looks pretty good, but I don't like something about the arm anatomy...", especially not amidst a chorus of other people saying "It's really good!"

 

I know TJ has a site to run, and if what he has to do to keep all the artists on board is to make a rule that non-artists are not allowed to discuss their opinions of the artwork on the forums, then I respect his decision. But if he instead chooses to make a rule that it's OK to discuss opinions of the artwork, but ONLY if the artist in question happens to LIKE your opinion, then I think that is going to end up being a serious mistake. Because it's way too vague, way too subjective, and way too arbitrary. Different artists will have different opinions about what comments they're glad to hear and what comments they're not-- heck, the SAME artist might be happy to hear a critical comment one day and upset to hear it another day when something else happens to be bothering him or her. Not being mind-readers, we'll never be able to guess that.

 

Either ban art discussion completely, IMHO, or just leave it at banning rudeness, which is at least more objective than banning "negative" comments and has a chance of being somewhat community-based. (It's also a standard that already exists, right?)

[thiefofhearts]

just got back from getting my nails done but tbh i didn't go back and read every post. nor do i want to.

 

what the original person who bumped the thread was trying to ask about was not strictly limited to the discussion of Earthgirl's sprite.

 

what they were asking for, i believe, was that there should be less censorship in the forum, because as it stands, it looks like it's far more acceptable to get in a group/herd mentality and point fingers and/or call names to someone just because you find what they say unacceptable.

 

that's what a lot of us were trying to point out. grant it, we used the holiday thread as an example, but it could have been about any other issue.

 

i think a lot of ideas and words are getting exaggerated or misconstrued, because to my knowledge, no one has said the sprite sucks and no one has said it needs to be made over. whether or not they were trying to imply it based on assumptions or if that was the intent of their post is a very tricky, slippery and dangerous slope. how can you justify judging or punishing someone based on what you think they think and not their actual actions?

 

i think the news thread being locked is sort of a sad way to go about it, but if it solves the problem i would support it. what i wouldn't support is one thread, whether it is the news thread or some other one, that is only dedicated to one type of opinion. one type of opinion isn't any more valid or deserving to be heard than the other. you don't have to like or support what someone says but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have their fair chance to express it, either.

[Kelkelen]

 

But in these posts, are people really addressing the artist(s), or just expressing their reaction to the new sprite on their scroll?

 

The thread is not labelled as 'comments to the spriter(s) but the Holiday/New Release thread...

 

 

 

Edit: it's the only public forum everyone goes to and sees.

 

So, yes, a locked Announcement thread and a separated Site Discussion thread would take all related comments out of News - and also give the forum more of a 'take-it-or-leave-it' feel rather than a participatory one.

I'm not sure what you were actually replying to in my post, as I think we're more or less on the same page. I'm just pointing out that the spriter WILL be present in that thread -- your comments go directly to them in that context, even if you're just "overheard," so to speak. When you know that they are absolutely hearing whatever you say, on the brink of their new release, take a moment to think about whether or not what you want to say will deflate their high spirits.

 

But I wasn't actually suggesting any possible change of rules, just reminding people that they should be polite. If you're polite, which most of the people here are, then there's no problem.

 

And my main point was that there's no need to change anything because it doesn't matter what the thread is called or where it is, people will still want to have that specific type of interaction and conversation.

 

The bullying, or the attitudes bordering on it, that I observed, weren't directed at the artist. Rather, it was between (a very few) anti-criticism people and (oddly) anti-praise people. That's where the name-calling and generalization began to occur. And again, I think that if we just keep level heads, report genuine rudeness or aggressiveness, and are otherwise polite, no new measures actually need to be taken.

[Syphoneira]

Well, one point I've been trying to make is rather a general one, that people aren't likely to be thinking of the spriter at all, just of their own personal concerns with/impression of the sprite on their scroll.

 

Since it appears that many people don't read the posts directly above their own on that same page, it becomes difficult to remind people that the spriter may be reading whatever is being said.

 

And if people commenting feel that THEIR feelings are being slapped down, they may react defensively in an offensive fashion and claim that they "don't care how the spriter feels either, then, so there," sort of thing.

 

So, yeah, tricky situation...

 

 

 

Edit: not sure how to add a second quote but would like to second what thiefofhearts said just previously:

 

"... it looks like it's far more acceptable to get in a group/herd mentality and point fingers and/or call names to someone just because you find what they say unacceptable. ...

 

"i think a lot of ideas and words are getting exaggerated or misconstrued, because to my knowledge, no one has said the sprite sucks and no one has said it needs to be made over. whether or not they were trying to imply it based on assumptions or if that was the intent of their post is a very tricky, slippery and dangerous slope. how can you justify judging or punishing someone based on what you think they think and not their actual actions? ..."

 

 

Re-edit: tjekan actually said much of what I wanted to, much better than I could have myself.

 

 

Lol, MOAR re-editing:

 

thiefofhearts, that was actually a general statement, roughly saying, among other things,

 

1st: that people would likely be expressing their opinions regarding the sprite, without aiming anything *at* the spriter

 

2nd: that even if previous posts reiterated that the spriter could be reading and hurt by a critical comment, or whatever else might be pertinent, that people may simply not notice these and

 

3rd: that if people feel that they're being slapped down, they sometimes tend to react defensively, potentially in an offensive fashion, which may cause them to say things out of anger/hurt that they would not otherwise have said.

 

So it's a tricky situation to manage.

 

But that's how drama starts, not by somebody saying that they're disappointed in a sprite, didn't like it as much as they'd hoped, or could see what they perceived as flaws in the sprite.

 

It starts by people reacting without thought or attention to what's reasonable or to what actually occurred, and becoming deliberately abusive or, as you so aptly pointed out, in situations when people do things such as attribute loaded, highly negative terms like 'hate' to people who have never said any such thing at all.

 

My apologies - I'm progressively more overtired, and have had trouble framing clear statements for some time; hope the above makes more sense, but I wouldn't like to bet on it.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Syphoneira

[thiefofhearts]

Well, one point I've been trying to make is rather a general one, that people aren't likely to be thinking of the spriter at all, just of their own personal concerns with/impression of the sprite on their scroll.

 

Since it appears that many people don't read the posts directly above their own on that same page, it becomes difficult to remind people that the spriter may be reading whatever is being said.

 

And if people commenting feel that THEIR feelings are being slapped down, they may react defensively in an offensive fashion and claim that they "don't care how the spriter feels either, then, so there," sort of thing.

 

So, yeah, tricky situation...

 

 

 

Edit: not sure how to add a second quote but would like to second what thiefofhearts said just previously:

 

"... it looks like it's far more acceptable to get in a group/herd mentality and point fingers and/or call names to someone just because you find what they say unacceptable. ...

 

"i think a lot of ideas and words are getting exaggerated or misconstrued, because to my knowledge, no one has said the sprite sucks and no one has said it needs to be made over. whether or not they were trying to imply it based on assumptions or if that was the intent of their post is a very tricky, slippery and dangerous slope. how can you justify judging or punishing someone based on what you think they think and not their actual actions? ..."

 

 

Re-edit: tjekan actually said much of what I wanted to, much better than I could have myself.

See, I'm going to have to use this as an example, I hope you don't mind.

 

Was there an actual example of this being explicitly said, or is this just your interpretation of a post or collection of posts?

 

And herein is where a lot of the "complainers" like myself have a problem. No one is actually saying anything that bad or to that extent; instead people are taking words and twisting to something they are not, and to me, that is far worse because you are crying foul where there are no chickens to be had.

 

Now, I will gladly eat my words if this was the case but I do not believe it to be so. Furthermore, I doubt it's as widespread as others make it out to be. People get so caught in dramatics that the make a witch hunt out of something, saying there are gobs and gobs of inappropriate posts when, in my opinion, there is neither the right volume nor the right amount of negativity/trolliness/evilness/whatever to warrant such a strong reaction.

 

That's just how I see it though.

 

edit: just use the {quote} tag. but with the right brackets

Edited December 31, 2011 by thiefofhearts

[Reidragon]

Herein lies another problem.

 

People in general all interpret things differently.

 

Something user A said could seem perfectly reasonable to user B. Where as user C could see the same comment and be extremely offended by it.

 

So really another factor in this whole thing is that a lot of the time no two people view something in the same light. :/

[LuckyFreckle]

I understand the reasoning, but it won't actually change anything. If the News thread becomes solely for News, and locked to public comments, and the newly-released-dragon-discussion is posted elsewhere, the SAME conversations are going to happen, just in a different thread.

 

It may still be a good idea, if only so that people don't miss important News updates, but really, I don't think it would alter much. If anything, News items like "Wreaths are being locked" or "Here is the timetable for the Christmas Holiday events" could each easily have their own small post/thread, locked, like a poster announcing information. But everyone will still want to chatter and comment and squee over new sprites, so they'll just do it in a thread with a different title.

 

No need to change the rules regarding what you can and can't say, I think. This last time, nothing much *happened* -- Z shut the thread for a cooldown shortly after the comments that anyone might have reported, before people even reported them. I feel like we're discussing points of basic courtesy, but that's not something we can really enforce/evaluate, except to report blatantly rude or disparaging posts. I honestly think there were more troubles between posters (what with the name-calling of people who either praised or criticized the sprite) than there were with the critical comments about the sprite itself!

 

I'd like to offer yet another hypothetical scenario: If you go to an art gallery, to walk through the exhibitions, you might talk with your companions about what you like and don't like, and why. But if you go to a free art show opening, and the artist themself is there and opens the floor for comments, would you really raise your hand and say to their face "I don't like it, I'm disappointed in your work?," or "I'm not impressed, I expected more?" It's not really the time and place, you know? Nor is it courteous.

And this is why I beat my head against the wall, because I have to repeat myself.

 

 

I'm not suggesting it so it will change the conversation. I'm suggesting it because it makes more sense to me to have the conversation separate from the News. I realize that the same conversation will happen, and I've even said I realize that, it just makes more sense, in my opinion, to have the conversation elsewhere.

[thiefofhearts]

Herein lies another problem.

 

People in general all interpret things differently.

 

Something user A said could seem perfectly reasonable to user B. Where as user C could see the same comment and be extremely offended by it.

 

So really another factor in this whole thing is that a lot of the time no two people view something in the same light. :/

that's what the report button is for. of course if it's not "bad enough" (aka breaking the rules) to be reported to a mod, i hardly think it's bad enough for everyone to gang up on a member or group of members and call them names (which i believe *is* breaking the rules).

 

because right now, here is the situation that keeps popping up:

 

person a: the colors look odd to me

 

person b: omg you are so horrible. stop saying you hate the sprite, the artist worked really hard and you are just a drama starter. if you think it's ugly then don't play anymore. all you want to do is complain and whine and cause drama.

 

it's not even about interpretation at that point; something is being said and another person completely twists it around. we can sit here and talk about the intent of of person a's post, but in reality, it's all moot because they didn't break any rules; in contrast, person b had a much more aggressive post and would be, imo, the person stirring the pot.

[Kelkelen]

And this is why I beat my head against the wall, because I have to repeat myself.

 

 

I'm not suggesting it so it will change the conversation. I'm suggesting it because it makes more sense to me to have the conversation separate from the News. I realize that the same conversation will happen, and I've even said I realize that, it just makes more sense, in my opinion, to have the conversation elsewhere.

Please, don't beat your head against the wall!

 

I wasn't trying to contradict your points! I was just pointing something out because some people here *are* concerned over what the nature of the conversation should be, and if people should be permitted to have it, and so on. You're focusing on a different topic than they were, and my comment was directed more at their concern than at yours.

 

 

Your POV makes perfect sense to me. A lot of people here have pointed out that real News ALERTS get easily lost in the shuffle, if the only active news thread is full of a conversation. Even I, in the post you just quoted, mentioned that it would be a good idea so that people don't miss important updates.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece on it now, and it will either make sense to people or it won't.

[Obscure_Trash]

As I said, we prefer more reports than less. If you think something may escalate, report it and let us know you think things are getting tense. Sometimes I'm dealing with threads and reports elsewhere and may not realize there's something else I need to be keeping an eye on somewhere else. Reports help. Big time. Just because you send a report doesn't mean we're going to warn someone or close the topic. Maybe we'll be able to stop the drama before it breaks out or just pop into a thread, which is sometimes enough to quell people down. Maybe we'll just know to keep an eye out. It helps.

 

~

 

The problem I see with having a separate thread in SD, which would follow SD rules, is that it's going to cause more complaints than give more solutions. As _Z_ mentioned, there's a deal more spam that is allowed to go on in news that wouldn't be able to go on in SD, and I think people kind of enjoy that. Usually if TJ makes a post, it's an update, so it's a good idea to check out a thread if you see him post in it, especially if the post is closed or has been closed. :3

[DarkEternity]

But if you go to a free art show opening, and the artist themself is there and opens the floor for comments, would you really raise your hand and say to their face "I don't like it, I'm disappointed in your work?," or "I'm not impressed, I expected more?"  It's not really the time and place, you know?  Nor is it courteous.

It doesn't stop people walking to their computers right after watching it and telling the world how crap it was and having their article published in well known newspapers worldwide. And being paid for it.

Edited December 31, 2011 by DarkEternity

[LuckyFreckle]

Please, don't beat your head against the wall!

 

I wasn't trying to contradict your points! I was just pointing something out because some people here *are* concerned over what the nature of the conversation should be, and if people should be permitted to have it, and so on. You're focusing on a different topic than they were, and my comment was directed more at their concern than at yours.

 

 

Your POV makes perfect sense to me. A lot of people here have pointed out that real News ALERTS get easily lost in the shuffle, if the only active news thread is full of a conversation. Even I, in the post you just quoted, mentioned that it would be a good idea so that people don't miss important updates.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece on it now, and it will either make sense to people or it won't.

*stops beating head against wall*

 

I see what you are saying. I apologize for the confusion on my part.

 

 

 

And my last stance on this matter is as follows:

 

As a different type of artist, I welcome all constructive feedback, positive or negative. I can't remember which poster was questioning whether positive feedback should have the same amount of dialogue as negative, and I'd appreciate it honestly.

 

"I like it!" Ok, why? Why do you like it? Do you like the dragon's stance? Do you like the coloring?

 

"I don't like it." Ok, why? Why don't you like it?

 

Sure, positive may not seem as important to some as negative, but it can certainly tell you if you're on the right track. For example, someone likes your coloring, you can take that as "I'm going pretty good on blending and shading," or they like the stance, "I'm doing good with the anatomy and making sure that the way the dragon sits, or stands, or floats the way it realistically should." I welcome that sort of thing, and if I were spriting, I would really like to know why people like it, or don't like it.

 

As I said, I have no qualms about the opinions of others, whether similar or different, but at least say why, because the spriter cannot learn from opinions of said opinions don't include any reasoning. Is it because you don't like a color? Is it because you feel that the limbs don't look the way it should? That way, the spriter can either learn from that, or alleviate your concern, stating "I gave them those limbs for a reason," or "There is a reason behind that coloring."

 

Just saying "I don't like it," isn't good enough. Are people welcome to those opinions? Sure, but if I'm a spriter, I'm not going to take people seriously when they say why they don't like it without giving some kind of reasoning. I'd be more prone to actually speaking to someone who said "I don't like the way that the limbs look" or "I don't like the way the green is blended in," and from that, at least I could learn something about what I need to focus on next in regards to improvement.

 

If I made a banner and asked people what they though, and someone said, "I don't like it," I'd tell them, "sucks for you." If someone said, "I don't like the way you've blended the pink and grey," I'd tell them, "Thank you for pointing that out, I'll be sure to work on my blending." And if someone said "I like it," I'd say, "Thank you, but why? What do you like about it?"

 

I realize that there are many people here on the forums, so asking each individual what they like or don't like about it could be tedious, so that's where I suggest that when you're critiquing something, whether positive or negative, say why. What pops out at you that automatically feels that way.

 

With the new Christmas dragon, it was the stance. I love dragons that are off the ground, hovering, floating, or flying. I was a little disappointed in the coloring, not because I don't think she did a good job, because I think she did a wonderful job. I was simply hoping for something besides what we've been having as far as colors. I was hoping for a blue/silver/white combo. But that doesn't reflect on her skills as an artist, only on my personal preference after having Red Hollies, White/Red Yulebucks, White/Gold/Tri-Color Snowangels, and Green Ribbons.

 

That is the exact reason why people should say why. People could say "I don't like it," when all they don't like is that it's the same color as a previous dragon. It doesn't mean that the artist didn't do a good job. However, when people don't elaborate, then what else are you supposed to think? They don't like it, but why? Did the artist not do good on the coloring, on the stance, or is it just some personal preference that doesn't reflect on the artist's skills?

 

I think that that's what the community needs to work on when critiquing. I saw plenty of people doing that, with both positive and negative comments. They didn't like certain things, they liked certain things, but at least they explained the reasoning. I think if we had a little more communication in posts as to why we feel the way we feel about certain dragons, then it wouldn't be such an issue.

 

At the same time, some spriters, and honestly, I agree with EG. If I were spriting, and it was my very first Christmas release, I had devoted plenty of time and effort, ran the process through to others who gave me some great criticism, then released it all to get a bunch of vague "I don't like it" as well as a comment or two demanding that the dragon be fixed, then I would be a little frustrated, especially with it being the holiday season, where this is about giving, and EG gave her time and effort, giving us dragons, giving us gifts in a sense, much like any other dragon that is released here, etc. etc.

 

Should I say that nobody should comment negatively? No. But at least:

 

1) Say why. Help the artist improve, or at least, be able to explain why they did what they did.

 

2) Be polite.

 

3) Don't demand. I saw a couple posts where they were almost demanding a fix. It's the spriter's dragon, they don't have to fix anything if they don't want to, especially if the spriter likes how it is. I doubt Van Gogh gave a leap if someone wanted him to change something in a painting. It was his painting, it came out of his imagination. Suggesting a fix is nice, but don't get angry if the spriter says no. It's their work of art.

 

That all being said, whether negative or positive, I think we should all be grateful. Yes, all of us. For these dragons, for these events, for these forums, and these threads like these that help us communicate what we want/need to communicate to make it a better experience for everyone.

 

And once again....sorry for the novel.

[perzephone]

I'm with other people who feel that News threads should be just that - News and Site Announcements. Not to prevent drama (which is virtually impossible w/out creating a moderator repression state), but some of us don't want to read through hundreds of replies that just say "Yay!!!" or "Booo!" to see if anything else important has been posted.

 

I know a couple of forums I'm on actually have 'Squee'-type threads, where you can announce your excitement and/or outrage at things going on with the sites, or congratulate people on various life events, or whatever, that won't interfere with a News/Announcement topic.

 

Is the forum so stressed for storage that it's absolutely impossible to create a few more 'stickied' threads for things like this?

[Nine]

TJ posted this earlier. I think some of you might have missed it.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=5807965

I've only been skimming these last... oh six or seven pages since I last posted, but I just have to say this:

 

TJ response there is kind of a straw man. No one was suggesting that we ignore peoples' feelings, bully people (ironic since those who give critique are more often bullied), nit pick every pixel just for the enjoyment of it, or purposely not try to help artists improve. I think there is a very clear misunderstanding that promoted that response.

 

Now, back to catching up on whatever. I totally don't like the idea of a separate thread for crit though-- it feels like segregation of the "bad" posts from the "good". It feels like picking up all the "potential drama-starting crits", dumping them in a pit, and leaving them to fight amongst themselves so the happy bubble won't be bothered by such trouble. If anything that would create a lot of hard feelings between both sides-- those with crit feeling like they're being shoved into a corner away from everyone else, out of sight out of mind, and those who are happy with the sprite seeing the daunting thread that contains the congealed mass of unhappy feelings and things they will inherently disagree with.

 

Quite often in my posts I will list likes and dislikes. Would I be sent to the prison block or summer camp? Why can't we just merge the prison and the summer camp and..

Nevermind, this metaphor is not working out.

 

Edit: I would still like to see those who accuse others of starting drama, labeling them whiners just for the sake of being hateful, saying things like "you can't do better so stfu" etc. warned for their efforts. Attacking others should not be tolerated, regardless of the topic at hand.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Nine

[stogucheme]

Can I just state this for the record?

BOTH sides did bad things.

NEITHER side is better than the other.

BOTH sides went out of line.

NOT ALL THE PEOPLE from each side went out of line.

 

So please, stop with the 'the people on our side were perfect angels and it was the OTHER side that were the demons,' and let's move on already.

ETA: Please don't post, 'I never stated that!' That misses the point entirely.

Edited December 31, 2011 by stogucheme

[Nine]

Can I just state this for the record?

BOTH sides did bad things.

NEITHER side is better than the other.

BOTH sides went out of line.

NOT ALL THE PEOPLE from each side went out of line.

 

So please, stop with the 'the people on our side were perfect angels and it was the OTHER side that were the demons,' and let's move on already.

ETA: Please don't post, 'I never stated that!' That misses the point entirely.

Please stop trying to referee a match that doesn't exist. No one here is playing for a side; we are all shooting for the same goal, to make this forum a better place.

 

If there is a segregation of posts, regardless if it is the praise or the crit that is chosen, the message is that this type of post is no longer appropriate for this kind of thread. This opinion goes here and that opinion goes here.

There is no angelic side or demonized side-- the segregation itself hurts every opinion in the long run. It's saying that they cannot be together in the same topic, that people with differing opinions should not be in a situation where they may disagree with one another. I know that is not the intent of the suggestion to split topics, I can completely see that, but I can't help but feel that doing so would result in more fragmenting of the DC forums.