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[skauble]

Of course I understand that a spriter or any other artist isn't happy if their work is criticised. It's not just with sprites, btw: Once in a while, I write descriptions. Now, whether this would be "art" or not aside, there is feedback which I don't like. I ignore it if I think it is unjustified. But this is not what I think is a problem in this forum, so let me come to the the point. I'll best give an example.

 

You go into the Louvre and look at the Mona Lisa. Cool, right? So many people drool and think it's the "best painting ever". You are more like "Meh... too dark and all. I just don't like it". Now, what happens in DC?

 

1. Leonardo (=the artist) comes along and tells you that this is no proper criticism. That is correct. It probably wasn't even supposed to be criticism in that meaning, but merely to state one's opinion. I don't know why it is so hard to simply ignore that and shrug it off. We all know that someone is not going to like what we do - not just in arts, but in any field of our daily lives.

 

2. The second thing that would happen is fifty Frenchman storming into the Louvre and yelling something like this:

- You should be grateful that Leonardo took so much time to paint the Mona Lisa.

- If you don't like it, don't visit the Louvre.

- Oh, you are just making drama. Stop whining.

 

And so on.

Except that a better example would be:

 

You go to a party where everyone is celebrating the holidays. To commemorate another festive holiday season, Leonardo paints the Mona Lisa, unveils it, and offers everyone a copy for free - that you aren't even required to take.

 

See, in that example - which I think represents this particular situation more - people tend to dislike the negativity more because it's a celebration rather than them simply being rabidly anti-criticism or anti-opinion. Because, over time, a pervasive kind of negativity builds up and it ends up compromising a thread that, as far as I can see, is a celebratory affair as opposed to more of a solicitation of sprite feedback.

 

But, opinions, crit, concrit, all of that aside, I agree with stardust13 about finding another way to do this so that every other holiday celebration doesn't get derailed away from the festivities and into big, long debates. IMO, there's nothing wrong with us having a thread that's there for celebrating. It doesn't mean that people can't have other opinions, but there's nothing wrong with having one thread that's just a feel good, festivities kind of place.

 

So, here is why I think you misunderstood me. Most of the answers are about that "do not like" is not proper criticism. I don't deny this. My pet peeve is that many users seem to think that opinions that are not concrete criticism should not be allowed to be posted. Why that should be; I haven't heard a valid reason for this yet.

 

I can't answer for a forum full of people, but from the people that I've spoken to around here, many of them seem to generally favor concrit because, to a lot of folks, it feels sort of like it's not in keeping with the “treat each other kindly” part of rule one to simply pop in to point out that you don't like something that someone worked hard to make for no other reason than to let them know.

 

For the record, I'm not saying that it does violate the rule, just that I've gotten the impression that people intuitively find it incongruous and so that POV may come from that place.

[Fuzzbucket]

Oh

 

Geez.

 

I do agree about many people not understanding how to do CONSTRUCTIVE crit of art, though. I have an issue with Michelangelo's David. I HATE it. But I cannot articulate WHY. And I am pretty damn good with words.

 

But we are lucky to have all the lovely sprites we have. And we all dislike the odd one (I have my own little gripe with one or two - doesn't everyone ?) - but we don't have to pick them up if we don't like them - so where's the issue.

 

I DO agree that negative crit should be BANNED from release threads - it spoils happy events. Which might mean the best way is to have a LOCKED announcement.

 

But - we CAN say we don't like xyz about a sprite NICELY at least - if we try. More of us SHOULD try !

[Rally Vincent]

Except that a better example would be:

 

You go to a party where everyone is celebrating the holidays.  To commemorate another festive holiday season, Leonardo paints the Mona Lisa, unveils it, and offers everyone a copy for free - that you aren't even required to take.

 

See, in that example - which I think represents this particular situation more - people tend to dislike the negativity more because it's a celebration rather than them simply being rabidly anti-criticism or anti-opinion.  Because, over time, a pervasive kind of negativity builds up and it ends up compromising a thread that, as far as I can see, is a celebratory affair as opposed to more of a solicitation of sprite feedback.

Okay, let us use your example, then. What we are missing in this is that it is not the individual party of the party guests. It is the party of the host. And if the host does not forbid opinions to be voiced, the other guests have no right to tell other guests to stop talking, however much they want to. They are welcome and allowed to say they think someone is a killjoy, but only the host of the party can tell someone to shut up. That is a significant difference between one and the other, and a forum does not benefit from a streamlined userbase.

 

 

But, opinions, crit, concrit, all of that aside, I agree with stardust13 about finding another way to do this so that every other holiday celebration doesn't get derailed away from the festivities and into big, long debates.  IMO, there's nothing wrong with us having a thread that's there for celebrating.  It doesn't mean that people can't have other opinions, but there's nothing wrong with having one thread that's just a feel good, festivities kind of place.

 

I can't answer for a forum full of people, but from the people that I've spoken to around here, many of them seem to generally favor concrit because, to a lot of folks, it feels sort of like it's not in keeping with the “treat each other kindly” part of rule one to simply pop in to point out that you don't like something that someone worked hard to make for no other reason than to let them know.

I think that stardust's suggestion is good. I'd be totally okay with a rule to have discussion about sprites elsewhere. But I really fail to see how someone saying they don't like the dragon is rude. It could only rude in how the opinion is worded, and that is punishable by the mods.

 

For the record, I'm not saying that it does violate the rule, just that I've gotten the impression that people intuitively find it incongruous and so that POV may come from that place.

But people do not leave it at telling others they think they are ruining the festive atmosphere. They tell them to be silent, and that crosses the line, as they are not entitled to order other users around. Just give anyone the courtesy to have the same right as we have as forum user.

[NivaTheDragonQueen]

Except that a better example would be:

 

You go to a party where everyone is celebrating the holidays. To commemorate another festive holiday season, Leonardo paints the Mona Lisa, unveils it, and offers everyone a copy for free - that you aren't even required to take.

^^ That's what I don't get! If these people hate the sprite SO much, why don't they just abandon or trade the egg/hatchling they have so they don't have to have it? It's there choice whether they want the egg or not.

 

I personally think that if you can't do a better job at spriting, you shouldn't be complaining about the sprites. These spriters are amazing, and I can imagine it takes a lot of work to get that beautiful dragon in the end.

[natli]

I'm with fuzzbucket

 

geeez.

 

"This sucks" - negative comment, complaint

 

"I think there's a problem with anatomy/proportions/shading" - constructive criticism

 

"I really like what you did with the colors and the pose this but I think there's a problem with anatomy/proportions/shading" - *nice* constructive criticism (highly encouraged, because we're all human)

 

I didn't see any bashing comments, so I'm surprised by the drama (point them out to me if I missed any).

 

For the record, I still think Winter Magis are one of the best looking dragons on the site

 

 

 

 

[thiefofhearts]

^^ That's what I don't get! If these people hate the sprite SO much, why don't they just abandon or trade the egg/hatchling they have so they don't have to have it? It's there choice whether they want the egg or not.

 

I personally think that if you can't do a better job at spriting, you shouldn't be complaining about the sprites. These spriters are amazing, and I can imagine it takes a lot of work to get that beautiful dragon in the end.

except that noone was saying they hated the sprite or OMG it's so terrible - no one. In fact a lot of people actually said they really liked but just also said that if it was tweaked in one area, they would like it more.

 

It's done with every other dragon - including the other holidays.

 

Anyway, someone else pointed out that it wasn't really about the Spriter getting upset, and I agree. She has just as much right to say, "Well I disagree with your assertion, peace out," as anyone else can say "They colors don't really match here, and it's hard to see xxx detail."

 

What's frustrating is the attitude that everyone has to put up and shut up.

[Haloclimb]

^^ That's what I don't get! If these people hate the sprite SO much, why don't they just abandon or trade the egg/hatchling they have so they don't have to have it? It's there choice whether they want the egg or not.

 

I personally think that if you can't do a better job at spriting, you shouldn't be complaining about the sprites. These spriters are amazing, and I can imagine it takes a lot of work to get that beautiful dragon in the end.

See, it's attitudes like this that annoy me, especially the 'if you can't do better than shut up'. I can't cook, so does that mean that if someone cooks me a terrible meal I should just shut up and be happy simply because I 'can't do better?'

 

The whole 'well if you don't like it don't have it' attitude is something that rubs me wrong too. I was one of the ones who had a quibble or two about the new sprite, but that does not mean I don't like it. I do like the new dragons. They are lovely, and I love their pose and anatomy and when I look at them I can see how much earthgirl has improved over the years she's been here.

But because I'm not a fan of the colour scheme all that much, and pointed out that it was a little busy and made the sprite a little confusing means I should just dump my eggs and not get to play with everyone else, just because I didn't love it 10000%?

 

I must have missed most of the drama, because when I left the thread all I saw were a few people mentioning a few things they disliked, while still being very polite about it and pointing out other parts of it that they liked.

I also saw that for every 1 person saying that they weren't so keen, there were at LEAST 10 people saying how much they loved it. And you know what? Thats okay! People have different opinions!

Not everyone will love the same things, and as long as everyone voices their opinion in a polite and non-hurtful way then where's the problem?

 

And just like theifofhearts said, the spriters have just as much right to not disagree with our opinions as we have to state them. No-one wants to make anyone angry, or upset, or so frustrated that they stop spriting. At the same time, I don't think ANYONE is expecting earthgirl, or any spriter, to look at every single criticism and then instantly change their sprite. (And if they are, that would be considered extremely rude!)

 

tl;dr: I think the attitude of 'if you can't do better then you have no say' is not only quite rude in of itself, but it's also hindering any ACTUAL discussion of new sprites. God knows I can barely even pluck up the courage to say anything that's not oozing praise in a new release thread lest I get my head bitten off by a thousand angry fans!

[Lyricmaniac]

I hope this hasn't been said, but am not reading through the entire thread. There are 2 things I'd love to see.

 

1. I'd love to see gifting and trading separated into two different sections. Things like TGT and metallic gifting in one section and trading like caveborn trading and rare trading in another. It'd make it easier to sift through.

 

2. I'd LOVE for the inbox to be bigger. I have to CONSTANTLY go through and delete my inbox. I absolutely hate doing it because I like saving certain PMs. I would love it if the inbox could be doubled or even tripled.

[Tawanda001]

I agree with some of the others that there is a time and place for constructive criticism, and unless the spriter specifically requests it a new release announcement is not the place for it.

I like the idea of keeping it out of the news section and having a separate place for it.

(Apparently rudeness is also in the eye of the beholder, because I did find several of the criticisms pointless and rude)

[skauble]

I think that stardust's suggestion is good. I'd be totally okay with a rule to have discussion about sprites elsewhere. But I really fail to see how someone saying they don't like the dragon is rude. It could only rude in how the opinion is worded, and that is punishable by the mods.

 

I think that some of this just really depends on a person's definition of what's rude. It kind of seems like there are two reasons for someone making a plain "I don't like it" statement in a case like this one.

 

1. A person hopes that if people know that the sprite isn't universally loved then those in charge will consider taking alternative routes in the future.

 

In that case, people are right to prompt for concrit, because it's kind of necessary to reach that goal. I mean, if my boss just says "I don't like your work", how would I even begin to know what to change?

 

2. A person sees a bunch of people celebrating and talking with an artist who, love or hate the sprite, we all admit worked hard, and feels the need to (and it should be noted that this isn't just like saying you don't like a painting in passing) click “reply”, type out that they dislike something – with no intent of helping it improve – and then post it for the sole reason of...honestly, it just seems like injecting a little negativity into the festivities.

 

I mean, with no intention of helping to make something better, a comment like that tends to take away from the festive atmosphere for what appears to be just the purpose of making sure people have an awareness of their dislike.

 

Now, I'm not saying that people don't have the right to share their dislike of something, and I definitely agree that other players don't need to tell them to shut up. But if you're wondering how people might find it rude, I actually don't find it that odd that, DC rules aside, some people find that generally rude in a real life, not forum rule guided way. Because sharing a negative opinion for no other reason than to let someone who worked hard on something know that you don't like their work, falls within the bounds of what a lot of people consider impolite.

 

Honestly, I do agree with you that people don't need to be telling people that they can't say things if the forum rules say that they can. But, on the other hand, I would have no problem if, when it came to art, rule five was changed to make it clear that feedback needed to be in the form of concrit. I don't think that people should have to love the art here because it's free, but I do think that, considering people are volunteering their time, it wouldn't be remiss if we repaid that by being constructive when we're being critical.

 

Although, again, tossing my support in in favor of not doing it in the holiday celebration thread.

 

 

I didn't see any bashing comments, so I'm surprised by the drama (point them out to me if I missed any).

 

This is just personal opinion because I can't say for sure what the mods consider bashing, but I think I remember someone saying that it gave them a headache to look at it. To me, I think that kind of thing looses the constructive part of concrit.

 

Also, to whoever mentioned not being good with concrit, I believe that there's a guide stickied in this section of the forum that might be helpful.

[annageckos]

I personally think that if you can't do a better job at spriting, you shouldn't be complaining about the sprites. These spriters are amazing, and I can imagine it takes a lot of work to get that beautiful dragon in the end.

I have never agreed with this. Just because you can't draw (or write or pick anything) doesn't mean you can see something that can be fixed or made better. Of course 'better' would be an opinion. I can draw, but not well. Not anywhere as good as most the spriters here. But that doesn't mean I can't see when anatomy is off. My issue was I was called a whiner because I said the legs/hands looked humanoid to me. The sprite is nice, and well done I also said. But because of pointing something out I got called names.

[Fuzzbucket]

See, it's attitudes like this that annoy me, especially the 'if you can't do better than shut up'. I can't cook, so does that mean that if someone cooks me a terrible meal I should just shut up and be happy simply because I 'can't do better?'

Actually - up to a point, in THAT case, yes It's common politeness. And then avoid eating there again.

 

Since you ask

 

But because I'm not a fan of the colour scheme all that much, and pointed out that it was a little busy and made the sprite a little confusing means I should just dump my eggs and not get to play with everyone else, just because I didn't love it 10000%?

I'd have said that WAS concrit. And no, of course not. I have several of the sprites I'm not keen on on my scroll. But if they REALLY bugged me - sure, I might get rid.

I also saw that for every 1 person saying that they weren't so keen, there were at LEAST 10 people saying how much they loved it. And you know what? Thats okay! People have different opinions!

 

Not everyone will love the same things, and as long as everyone voices their opinion in a polite and non-hurtful way then where's the problem?

There is none, THEN. But - so often that isn't what happens. And I do think the comments that don't just say "I'm not keen on the left leg, it looks broken" but go on to say "It needs to be changed." are a bit iffy. Say what bugs you and let the spriter decide where to go from there, I'd say.

tl;dr: I think the attitude of 'if you can't do better then you have no say' is not only quite rude in of itself, but it's also hindering any ACTUAL discussion of new sprites. God knows I can barely even pluck up the courage to say anything that's not oozing praise in a new release thread lest I get my head bitten off by a thousand angry fans!

There I do know how you feel.

[NivaTheDragonQueen]

See, it's attitudes like this that annoy me, especially the 'if you can't do better than shut up'. I can't cook, so does that mean that if someone cooks me a terrible meal I should just shut up and be happy simply because I 'can't do better?'

 

I meant my comment for those people who have been saying "Oh, I absolutely HATE that new dragon sprite!", constructive criticism is needed in everything a person does. We are all human! What I hate is when people who comment about "absolutely hating" the sprite, but yet they can't do any better? But then they don't even list any reasons, so it's not helping people know what they don't like.

 

You provided a very good example with the cooking, and I realize I had worded my post wrong. I meant it to be for those who hate the sprite, but for those who had small dislikes on the sprite, mention them! But don't go all troll, like some people are, on the spriters because you think they should have made the dragon different, just provide your constructive criticism. That's my two cents there

[thiefofhearts]

I meant my comment for those people who have been saying "Oh, I absolutely HATE that new dragon sprite!", constructive criticism is needed in everything a person does. We are all human! What I hate is when people who comment about "absolutely hating" the sprite, but yet they can't do any better? But then they don't even list any reasons, so it's not helping people know what they don't like.

 

You provided a very good example with the cooking, and I realize I had worded my post wrong. I meant it to be for those who hate the sprite, but for those who had small dislikes on the sprite, mention them! But don't go all troll, like some people are, on the spriters because you think they should have made the dragon different, just provide your constructive criticism. That's my two cents there

I'm not trying to troll here but can you actually quote someone saying they "HATED" the sprite?

 

Because I really think that is a strong over reaction that only makes this situation worse.

[kabocha]

I like the fact that there's a guide for giving critique, but is there anything for helping artists handle it?

 

Maybe we should make an area specifically for concrit, like I do believe I saw suggested here. That way, for the "sensitive" artists, they can more easily ignore them, and for those that actually want the feedback on releases, they can have it to improve with.

 

Some suggested guidelines for crit recipients:

1. If you post something online, you are going to need to accept that people are going to comment on it.

 

2. Try to remember that someone took the time to try to help you out. It doesn't mean you have to follow what they say, however.

 

3. You can ignore critique if you don't want to accept it. It's okay to say something along the lines of "Thank you for your feedback," and leave it at that if you feel a need to reply.

 

4. If someone's not being overtly polite or constructive, it doesn't always invalidate what they're saying. Try to keep a level head, and read between the lines. Otherwise, move on if it's too much.

 

There's obvious exceptions to be made for harassment, but I think that really covers it.

Edited December 30, 2011 by kabocha

[Kanakha]

Personally I think the critique of a holiday release should be reserved for /after/ the release is finished (meaning, TJ's versions have grown up and the CBs are starting to grow up) and let the holiday release just be a happy one. Constructive criticism is always acceptable, I think. But some people could stand to learn there's a fine line between constructive and rudely-opinionated. Especially here on DC.

 

In addition, I think all announcement threads should remain locked. Permanently. Let there be a discussion thread separate for them. That way it makes it easier for any updates TJ makes easier to spot, so that silly incidents like "What! There was a day when I could have gotten the rest of the Holiday Tales decorations I missed?!?!?!?!11!!1one!1!!" don't happen. It's not really fair to assume that after an announcement has been locked that people are going to be paying much attention to it, and by assuming such, update the thread after-the-fact with a major announcement, such as...oh I don't know....the availability on Christmas to go back and collect the decorations some people didn't have the chance to collect?

 

/Two-cents.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kanakha

[Rally Vincent]

I think that some of this just really depends on a person's definition of what's rude. It kind of seems like there are two reasons for someone making a plain "I don't like it" statement in a case like this one.

 

1. A person hopes that if people know that the sprite isn't universally loved then those in charge will consider taking alternative routes in the future.

 

In that case, people are right to prompt for concrit, because it's kind of necessary to reach that goal. I mean, if my boss just says "I don't like your work", how would I even begin to know what to change?

 

2. A person sees a bunch of people celebrating and talking with an artist who, love or hate the sprite, we all admit worked hard, and feels the need to (and it should be noted that this isn't just like saying you don't like a painting in passing) click “reply”, type out that they dislike something – with no intent of helping it improve – and then post it for the sole reason of...honestly, it just seems like injecting a little negativity into the festivities.

 

I mean, with no intention of helping to make something better, a comment like that tends to take away from the festive atmosphere for what appears to be just the purpose of making sure people have an awareness of their dislike.

 

Now, I'm not saying that people don't have the right to share their dislike of something, and I definitely agree that other players don't need to tell them to shut up. But if you're wondering how people might find it rude, I actually don't find it that odd that, DC rules aside, some people find that generally rude in a real life, not forum rule guided way. Because sharing a negative opinion for no other reason than to let someone who worked hard on something know that you don't like their work, falls within the bounds of what a lot of people consider impolite.

 

Honestly, I do agree with you that people don't need to be telling people that they can't say things if the forum rules say that they can. But, on the other hand, I would have no problem if, when it came to art, rule five was changed to make it clear that feedback needed to be in the form of concrit. I don't think that people should have to love the art here because it's free, but I do think that, considering people are volunteering their time, it wouldn't be remiss if we repaid that by being constructive when we're being critical.

 

Although, again, tossing my support in in favor of not doing it in the holiday celebration thread.

 

 

 

 

This is just personal opinion because I can't say for sure what the mods consider bashing, but I think I remember someone saying that it gave them a headache to look at it. To me, I think that kind of thing looses the constructive part of concrit.

 

Also, to whoever mentioned not being good with concrit, I believe that there's a guide stickied in this section of the forum that might be helpful.

I'm sorry, skauble, but you are trying to justify the "shut up'ers" based on perception. But perception is subjective, and unless you can tell the intent, the poster should have the benefit of the doubt. Even if one thinks that a neutral worded comment was meant to disturb festive atmosphere, we can't disallow those comments based solely on assumption. Why should posters not be allowed to post because someone interprets it as hostile - without proof, I might add. It's reminds me too much of "if you aren't with me or against me". I know from your posts which I usually read with greaqt pleasure that you are not like this, but supporting the "shut up'pers" supports their attitude.

 

Assumptions are dangerous. Did it cross your mind that some people are keeping their dislike short to not stir a big discussion, like they would with a huge post where tehy adress several things they deem not as they would have preferred it? Or that they just want to contribute to their community by giving an honest opinion? There aren't just two reasons - they are as manyfold as are we human beings.

 

Then, look at how many posts (anywhere on DC, not just announcement threads) begin with "Don't get me wrong, but..."; "This is not intended to..., but..." and so on. Why do you think that is? It is because whenever some dares to criticise, not always but very often others user go into bashing mode. The DC userbase is trying to streamline on a regular basis, and I know several people who don't bother to post any more because of it.

 

Do you think a community profits if the feedback does not display the true feelings of the playerbase? I certainly don't. There is an aphorism by Lothar Schmidt that goes: "Man soll sich nur auf etwas stützen, was Widerstand leistet:" Roughly translated, this means: "One should only seek support by something that gives resistance." What good is it if there is only positive feedback if people just pretend to like it and others don't bother to post? Is that what you want in a message board?

 

If a simple "I don't like it"-post encourages someone else to step up and voice their concrit which they otherwise wouldn't have in fear to be yelled at. Some people do need encouragement to stand their ground against a bigger group, and it might be easier for them if the are not alone.

 

Then, sometimes one might even not be able to locate exactly why one doesn't like something. How many songs did your hear on the radio and thought "Meh"? Are you not allowed to say so because you can't pinpoint it to "oh, should have been in E-Minor to be a good song"?

 

And I might repeat myself - it is not the function of the userbase to silence a minority. If someone thinks a post is rude and thus violates the forum rules, they should report and let the mods deal with it, but not gang up on others and silence them on their own. I'd make an exception to this is when mods would do nothing to punish users who without doubt repeatedly break rules. But that's not the case here.

[Dubious]

Goodness...are people really suggesting we only allow 'squee and I love it' posts in the holiday sprite release threads!?

 

As an artist myself I can only say that this would be the worse thing possible. A whole thread filled with empty praise, or at least so it would appear.. how would I know what people truley think if they are told what to say?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dubious

[Kanakha]

Goodness...are people really suggesting we only allow 'squee and I love it' in the holiday sprite release threads!?

Not entirely...people aren't outright banning negative/crit opinion on the art, they just don't want it done /during/ the release. It brings the mood down. Just let it be a good time, and let the real crit/commenting happen after, when everyone's gotten their jolly fill. If someone has an actual crit, peace should be held until crit is actually being received. It's obvious now that some artist don't want negative /right off the bat/, and aren't going to be entirely receptive of critique until things simmer down (which is not to say they can't take critique! I know these artists can each in their own way ) But logically, wouldn't it be better to make critique when it's more likely to be taken seriously?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kanakha

[Dubious]

Not entirely...people aren't outright banning negative/crit opinion on the art, they just don't want it done /during/ the release. It brings the mood down. Just let it be a good time, and let the real crit/commenting happen after, when everyone's gotten their jolly fill. If someone has an actual crit, peace should be held until crit is actually being received. It's obvious now that some artist don't want negative /right off the bat/, and aren't going to be entirely receptive of critique until things simmer down (which is not to say they can't take critique! I know these artists can each in their own way ) But logically, wouldn't it be better to make critique when it's more likely to be taken seriously?

If we get told that we can only post that we love the sprite in a thread then I certainly won't be posting in that thread period, regardless of whether I love the sprite or not. Censorship of any kind is draconian and not helpful to anyone. Yes rude posts should be removed, but critique delicatley put across hardly qualifies as 'this sucks, you bad artist!!!!'

 

People are going to like and dislike, it is human nature. I release work for free too, my last project took three years to complete. I have learned that as an artist you must learn to disregard the few negative posts and embrace the many, many positive posts. Even though it is human nature to do the opposite. I used to get upset and even pulled my work once, before I realised that I was only hurting myself. It was a hard learned lesson, but in the long run the choice was either quit or ignore the hate and embrace the multitude of love.

 

Since then I have learned to also distinguish personal opinion from an actual problem. An actual problem is something that multiple people post, at the least it deserves looking into. Personal opinion is something that needs to be ignored, you cannot please everyone.

 

I am sad that a mere ten posts apparently spoiled the release of this artist's work and took precendence over the, at least 100 posts shouting praise and appreciation.

 

I am sad that only the critique was taken into account and not the rest of these 'critiquing' posts that stated that the person also loved the sprite.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dubious

[Kelkelen]

It's obvious now that some artist don't want negative /right off the bat/, and aren't going to be entirely receptive of critique until things simmer down (which is not to say they can't take critique! I know these artists can each in their own way ) But logically, wouldn't it be better to make critique when it's more likely to be taken seriously?

^This. Many posters say that their critique is meant to help the artist improve. So pay attention to the artist's mood! If the artist makes it clear that they're not receptive to critique, how are you helping them? Seriously, if the artist is like, "I don't want to talk about this," and you say "too bad, it's for your own good!" it's not considerate of the artist's wishes, and will in all likelihood make them *less* receptive to your critique than if you'd held off on it for a bit. I'm not saying that there needs to be a *rule* about when or how to give critique, but the people giving it really should pay attention to when it's likely to be effective. I mean, what is your motivation in giving it? Are you expecting the spriter to alter the current sprite? That's pretty steep. Do you want to help the artist? Then pay attention to the artist's own mood and needs and wants, when you *know* they'll read your comment.

 

If, however, you want to hold a conversation with other people (and NOT the spriter) about what you think looks off about a sprite, or you just want to state that you don't like it and see who else agrees, couldn't you wait until a few days after the release, or else take the conversation to a different thread that the spriter is not going to be deeply involved in? Again, not talking about a need for any hard and fast rule. I'm only thinking over matters of politeness.

 

I didn't really see anything too strong going on, this time around. Most of the critique was constructive and stated neutrally enough. However, I saw a few comments to the effect of "not a fan," "don't like it," and "guess I'll freeze it because I don't like the adults," which are -- yes, valid opinions to have, but why are you stating them in the release thread? Hoping other people will chime in and say, "no, I don't like it either?" To what end? A couple of other comments just seemed a bit emotional and thus personal, like one poster stating that the flaws "really killed their enjoyment" of a sprite they might *otherwise* have liked. That's pretty negative, I think. Can't you point out what you see as flaws without telling the spriter that they killed your joy in their art?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kelkelen

[Renorei]

I think it would be useful to allow criticism of new release sprites, but perhaps not in the announcement thread in the news forum. Perhaps this criticism would only be allowed in a "New Release Criticisms" thread found somewhere in Site Discussion. That way it would be all-too-easy for the spriter to simply not go to that thread if they can't handle constructive criticism of their work, or simply aren't interested in concrit, while still being able to read all the gushing and squeeing in the News thread.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with constructive criticism at all, but at the same time, I guess it's a little bit rude to blurt out your constructive criticism if no one asked you. Plus, I guess it doesn't really make sense to offer concrit on a finished sprite. Shadow Walkers and Valentine 09 dragons aside, for the most part once a holiday dragon is released, it's already too late to expect any changes, so what's the point of the concrit? I've heard people say things like "to help the spriter improve in the future" but I think that's a really feeble argument. I doubt most people have that as their intent when they offer criticism of a holiday release sprite. And even those that honestly do, you have to consider the fact that for their future releases, there's a good chance the spriter will be making threads in Dragon Requests just like everyone else, where they will be receiving plenty of concrit to improve their work.

 

So I'm not saying concrit is bad or that people shouldn't share their opinions. But I do think there should be a separate place for it. That way the spriter can just relax and enjoy their Holiday release and read the positive comments in the News thread. Then a few weeks later if the spriter feels like they might want to update their sprite, they could go check out the concrit thread and see if people think the sprite has any issues that need addressing.

[Kanakha]

^This.  Many posters say that their critique is meant to help the artist improve.  So pay attention to the artist's mood!  If the artist makes it clear that they're not receptive to critique, how are you helping them?  Seriously, if the artist is like, "I don't want to talk about this," and you say "too bad, it's for your own good!" it's not considerate of the artist's wishes, and will in all likelihood make them *less* receptive to your critique than if you'd held off on it for a bit.  I'm not saying that there needs to be a *rule* about when or how to give critique, but the people giving it really should pay attention to when it's likely to be effective.  I mean, what is your motivation in giving it?  Are you expecting the spriter to alter the current sprite?  That's pretty steep.  Do you want to help the artist?  Then pay attention to the artist's own mood and needs and wants, when you *know* they'll read your comment. 

 

This more elegantly expresses what I was trying to say. Thank you, Kelkelen. Forgive me if I came across as wanting to suppress people's right of speech. Certainly not! /Constructive/ criticism isn't bad. But there's a small problem. Some people don't know the difference between constructive and...well...rudely opinionated. Still, the positive critique/comments FAR outnumbered the minority of negative comments in the release thread. I don't really see what there is to fuss about for Earthgirl, seeing as the Winter Magi is at large an accepted success.

 

Not to bring the Frill Incident back to life, but the reason there even /was/ a Frill Incident is because a very small minority of people didn't like it, thus ruining it for the entire community of DC (myself included >_>). Words were said. Sprites were discontinued. What I'm saying is, the artists need not be brought down so much by the small number of negative, and look at the big picture. Most of us love it, or at least think it looks pleasant. Isn't that enough?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kanakha

[Thuban]

I'm not reading through the newest posts, but heres what i have been thinking.

 

In terms of my own work on the site:

 

Some people love the things i do some people hate them, thats fine, im picky myself. Some of the artists have a good idea of things i like and things i dont, but when i point them out I try to say one good thing for every bad thing i have to say.

 

For example: lets pick on the little swamp hatchy from the halloween event.

 

"I like the colors on it, and the idea is cute. It has some anatomy issues and some of the areas on it are a bit blurry. I would suggest using darker colors (here and here) and a brighter color (here)."

 

This is good crit, and these are what i look for when i ask for help on concepts. The adult wasnt getting anything useful when i was looking for crit and i had no idea how to fix, so i scrapped it.

 

"There doesnt seem to be enough contrast in colors, try using a brighter shade of green on the nose and chest. You might also want to try deepening the colors on the arms, its not quite obvious that there is grass hanging from the arms, its a bit blurry" <~~~this is a bit more direct, and can be taken wrong by the artist, however it gives exact issues and explains the exact reasoning for the crit.

 

Example of bad/poor crit:

"omg that made me throw up in my mouth a little" <~~this was said after doing a quick sketch up for something i wanted to experiment with. It wasnt perfect, wasnt meant to be, it was just to get a point across. However that comment upset me enough that i scrapped the concept completely and deleted all existance of it. Including the finished sprites i had at the time.

 

"your shading is bad, and you have anatomy issues" <~~this isnt as bad, but also isnt helpful. Sometimes being specific about where the exact issue is will help more than using a blanket statement. Where is the shading wrong? all over, or just on the far wing? Whats wrong with the anatomy? it would be a shame to go and change a bunch of lines only to find out a toe or finger was 2px over too far.

 

When giving crit I believe in being as clear as possible about the issues as well as the things i like about them. There is always a nice way to get the point across without being rude or overbearing.

[Fuzzbucket]

Personally I think the critique of a holiday release should be reserved for /after/ the release is finished (meaning, TJ's versions have grown up and the CBs are starting to grow up) and let the holiday release just be a happy one. Constructive criticism is always acceptable, I think. But some people could stand to learn there's a fine line between constructive and rudely-opinionated.

 

In addition, I think all announcement threads should remain locked. Permanently. Let there be a discussion thread separate for them. That way it makes it easier for any updates TJ makes easier to spot, so that silly incidents like "What! There was a day when I could have gotten the rest of the Holiday Tales decorations I missed?!?!?!?!11!!1one!1!!" don't happen. It's not really fair to assume that after an announcement has been locked that people are going to be paying much attention to it, and by assuming such post a major announcement after-the-fact, such as...oh I don't know....the availability on Christmas to go back and collect the decorations some people didn't have the chance to collect?

 

/Two-cents.

YES YES YES. A single post with the details. (heck, I only go to those threads to see the details, and every time I have to "go to first page".)

 

And I also agree with Kanakha. Also that crit (con or even not con) should not be in an announcement thread - not least as there are often OTHER announcements in there that get lost in the affray.

 

And yes to Renorei, too - I never see all that much point in offering concrit of a finished and released sprite. I know I don't know enough to Whelp a spriter improve in the future"... !