Abortion

[Vhale]

/video

This is state rep. Jim Buchy (pushing bill to ban abortion) being stumped when a reporter asked him if he'd ever considered the reasons a woman might seek an abortion. He admits, he hasn't.

 

Video

 

It's drawn from a 30 minute video report that Al Jazeera did on the Abortion debate in America

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I love Al Jazeera. It is such a valuable counterweight to what passes for news on so many US channels....

[Brite]

Before I begin:

No matter how humane they are killed, they still are. Suisse is a choice made by someone with control f their body, abortion is not, it is chosen by someone making decisions for the thing in their body. Something the living thing inside cannot control

 

Believe me, if half of the children put up for adoption could control it, they would BEG for their mothers to have aborted them. Social workers are told every day by children that they wish they had been aborted and many kill themselves.

[brairtrainer]

@Htt71

 

I understand that you are pro-life (been reviewing the thread so not going to touch on the topics I have already seen) what about women who would die or have a high chance of dying if they were to carry to term? What about women who know this could be the case (family history) but can't get tested because they aren't ready to have children yet but wish to look into birth control?

 

 

This is my situation, (although this may be changing soon, if I can get the next doctor I try to actually give me an ultrasound >.>) my mother was born with a mis shaped uterus, and as far as we know it is genetic. I am unable to get a doctor to give me an ultrasound even though if I were to somehow get pregnant the baby could kill me during/after brith depending on where it implants.

 

I also may not be able to take hormonal birth control and know I will have to push to get an IUD. Should I be punished for being born with issues such as these? Should I hold off even though I wish and crave the bonding that sex can provide me?

[Bex]

Very pro-choice here. I have had one abortion and if I found out I was pregnant again I would have another one. I am 27 and married, but I have several health problems that would make it very unlikely for me to be healthy while pregnant, and I would most likely not have a healthy baby if I was to carry to term. Rather than risk hurting myself or producing an unhealthy offspring, I use BC. But what if that fails? I should risk my life and/or curse my child with poor health just because someone else says so? No way.

 

Also, most women who have abortions aren't(edit) baby-hating monsters. Most of them are already parents who can not handle a second or third child and are choosing to focus their attention on their already-alive kids. Is that wrong?

 

And here's another example. My mother's cousin just found out that she is pregnant. She is 60 years old. Not only is she already a parent and a grand-parent, but she has GREAT GRANDKIDS. She has no business being pregnant. She was horrified when she found out. The chance of her surviving the pregnancy is very low, and the chance of her baby being healthy is very very low. She is getting an abortion. Who has the right to put her life in jeapordy because they don't agree with abortion? No one.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Drache

[BlitzDrake]

And in response to Lila:

No matter how much sugar you coat this in you are killing a forming creature that will be a human being. Fancy terminology doesn't negate the fact. Sorry to disappoint.

Uh no. It doesn't ALWAYS end up as that. It can turn into a tumor, a calcified mass, etc that can KILL the host..mother...whatever term floats ones boat.

[Brite]

Also, most women who have abortions are baby-hating monsters. Most of them are already parents who can not handle a second or third child and are choosing to focus their attention on their already-alive kids. Is that wrong?

 

So you mean "aren't"?

 

 

Also, I'm surprised that she was pregnant, though a lot of abortions are from women who thought they were passed the age of pregnancy, so understandable.

[Kestra15]

My mother's cousin just found out that she is pregnant. She is 60 years old.

...wow. On many levels.

 

Yeah, abortion in that case is a good call; off the top of my head, there's a greater than 10% chance that child with have Down Syndrome. That's *one* life-limiting syndrome before we even start, let alone all the other much more dangerous problems, let alone (as you said) surviving a pregnancy at that age.

 

Edited January 2, 2014 by Kestra15

[Bex]

So you mean "aren't"?

 

 

Also, I'm surprised that she was pregnant, though a lot of abortions are from women who thought they were passed the age of pregnancy, so understandable.

Yeah, I meant aren't. Darn autocorrect!

[KageSora]

So, apparently, in Texas--despite her wishes--a brain dead woman is being kept on life support because she's pregnant. Let me reiterate--she is legally dead--not just in a coma or anything. And they're keeping her on life support because she's pregnant. Despite her wishes being that she did not want to be on life support if the situation ever came up.

 

This is apparently legal in a number of states?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/experts-weigh-...nt-woman-alive/

[Brite]

So, apparently, in Texas--despite her wishes--a brain dead woman is being kept on life support because she's pregnant.  Let me reiterate--she is legally dead--not just in a coma or anything.  And they're keeping her on life support because she's pregnant.  Despite her wishes being that she did not want to be on life support if the situation ever came up.

 

This is apparently legal in a number of states?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/experts-weigh-...nt-woman-alive/

I've never thought of that. How well will that pregnancy go? Not to mention I would be PO'd if my body was literally being used as an incubator than let go once the child is born, not to mention the impact the father would feel if he gains one but then loses one at the same time. But hey, that's just me. Can't wait till I move up north

Edited January 4, 2014 by GhostChilli

[KageSora]

I've never thought of that. How well will that pregnancy go? Not to mention I would be PO'd if my body was literally being used as an incubator than let go once the child is born, not to mention the impact the father would feel if he gains one but then loses one at the same time. But hey, that's just me. Can't wait till I move up north

Yeah. While it's not strictly about abortion, it's basically turning a dead body into an incubator. Against the wishes the person had while alive.

 

So basically, the corpse of a pregnant person has less legal rights than the corpse of a non-pregnant person. That's... Honestly really scary.

 

Now, if she'd made it known prior to her death that she would like to be on life support and whatnot, then that would be a whole different matter. But they're totally ignoring the wishes she had. And that's what worries me.

 

Especially since it sounds like the family wants her wishes respected...?

 

 

What really scares me is realizing that there are laws in place to force pregnant people to remain on life support--even if it's agonizing hell for them to prevent the fetus from dying--at least that's what it sounds like from some googling I've done? (I mean, I dunno for sure, that's just what it sounds like?)

[Syaoransbear]

Hm, I think I agree with how they are handling it. I mean, she's dead. To be honest I think corpses have way too many rights. If you abandon your body by dying then it should be used to preserve the life of others regardless of your wishes.

 

Even though she said she never wanted to be on life support, I'm betting she wanted her baby much, much more than that mere preference. And to be honest, who would think of this scenario happening and plan for it?

 

I thought this was just some random lady with an unwanted baby and she wound up brain dead so the government swooped in and decided to force her body to birth it, but there's a father involved and this baby was wanted by the mother and the father. This is probably the only situation possible where I'm going to say that I'm okay with the father's wishes trumping the lady's wishes, but he likely knew her best and knew that in this scenario she would want to be kept on life support. Lets remember that this baby was wanted. I can't imagine any mother wanting their child to die just so they could have their wish of not being put on life support granted.

 

EDIT: Also, I thought your family could basically do whatever they wanted regardless of your wishes if you are incapacitated? Brain dead patients can't sue nearly as easily as their families.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[TCA]

Honestly in this case it does make sense to leave her on life support until baby, because yeah, the baby was definitely wanted, and she isn't alive in any reasonable sense to complain.

 

The husband is losing his wife anyways, he might as well not also have to lose the potential kid they both desired.

 

It isn't going to be that clear in all cases, though, making it required to do that all the time is... iffy at best, more realistically going to cause undue suffering.

[Obscure_Trash]

Hm, I think I agree with how they are handling it. I mean, she's dead. To be honest I think corpses have way too many rights. If you abandon your body by dying then it should be used to preserve the life of others regardless of your wishes.

 

Even though she said she never wanted to be on life support, I'm betting she wanted her baby much, much more than that mere preference. And to be honest, who would think of this scenario happening and plan for it?

 

I thought this was just some random lady with an unwanted baby and she wound up brain dead so the government swooped in and decided to force her body to birth it, but there's a father involved and this baby was wanted by the mother and the father. This is probably the only situation possible where I'm going to say that I'm okay with the father's wishes trumping the lady's wishes, but he likely knew her best and knew that in this scenario she would want to be kept on life support. Lets remember that this baby was wanted. I can't imagine any mother wanting their child to die just so they could have their wish of not being put on life support granted.

 

EDIT: Also, I thought your family could basically do whatever they wanted regardless of your wishes if you are incapacitated? Brain dead patients can't sue nearly as easily as their families.

I read the article linked and several others and none of them gave me the impression you seem to have gotten. o_O

 

Here's what I got (just putting it in list format because it's easier for me):

• The hospital is not giving the family a choice AT ALL
• The family wanted to let nature take its course
• The parents, if not also the husband (it sounded as if he was too, but most articles seemed to focus on the parents here), were ready to say good-bye when the hospital dropped the bombshell that they couldn't "pull the plug" since they had detected a fetal heartbeat
• The mother collapsed and was hospitalized when she was just fourteen weeks pregnant
• Her dead body is now 19 weeks pregnant, although I either missed it or am just unclear on if she's been on life support this whole time or the family recently decided they were ready to pull the plug at this time and were finally made aware that this wasn't going to happen
• The prognosis of the fetus is poor and the husband is really unsure of its future because its outlook is so bleak
• Both parents were paramedics - the woman was confident, after going through a situation where her brother was kept alive via machines for a while, that she never wanted to go through that and the man agreed
• The couple had a previous child and the father is mostly worried about protecting his toddler son from backlash of the situation
• It sounds to me as if the father has accepted the situation as it is - there's basically no way any change in law would be made in time to let nature take its course - and so is making the best of it (perhaps even not really speaking about if he wanted to pull the plug because he wouldn't want to break his child's heart when the child found out its father was ready to let it die if the fetus does make it); he does love his family, so he's going to devote himself to the fetus and hope that it's born and can make it and actually live a life of something other than pain; now the father's goal is to really spread awareness of the situation and, if need is seen, to bring a change in the law

~

 

It's incredibly creepy to me how young the fetus is and they're just going to continue to force a corpse to have artificial life in order to incubate the fetus until they can remove it. 14 weeks. That's barely second trimester. It isn't even halfway through a pregnancy. *shudders*

Edited January 4, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Infinis]

So I guess a DNR (do not resuscitate) and related don't even mean anything anymore for women if they drop dead while pregnant? o-O What even?

 

The hospital should be respecting her choice not to be on life support, but instead they are using the law to circumvent her firm decision not to be kept alive by machines because she's pregnant.

 

Lastly I find it 84395809% creepy that, for all intents and purposes, a dead body is being kept alive so that it can incubate a fetus.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Infinis

[KageSora]

Everything I can find says the father wanted her wishes respected but has basically accepted that his wife is legally being forced to be a corpse-incubator.

 

If the whole family had agreed that this was what the mother would have wanted, even that would be a different story. But the family wanted the plug pulled--they were told no.

 

 

What's the most creepy, to me, is that they're literally reducing her to an incubator. Yes, she's dead. But just because she's dead suddenly she gets less rights than other dead people?

 

Why do other dead bodies have the wishes they insisted on while alive respected instead of being harvested?

 

Especially considering how young the fetus is at this point. Now, if it had been fairly far along and just needed to be for a little while until they could remove it, that'd even be a different story.

[Aprilis]

I read the article linked and several others and none of them gave me the impression you seem to have gotten. o_O

 

Here's what I got (just putting it in list format because it's easier for me):

The hospital is not giving the family a choice AT ALL

The family wanted to let nature take its course

The parents, if not also the husband (it sounded as if he was too, but most articles seemed to focus on the parents here), were ready to say good-bye when the hospital dropped the bombshell that they couldn't "pull the plug" since they had detected a fetal heartbeat

The mother collapsed and was hospitalized when she was just fourteen weeks pregnant

Her dead body is now 19 weeks pregnant, although I either missed it or am just unclear on if she's been on life support this whole time or the family recently decided they were ready to pull the plug at this time and were finally made aware that this wasn't going to happen

The prognosis of the fetus is poor and the husband is really unsure of its future because its outlook is so bleak

Both parents were paramedics - the woman was confident, after going through a situation where her brother was kept alive via machines for a while, that she never wanted to go through that and the man agreed

The couple had a previous child and the father is mostly worried about protecting his toddler son from backlash of the situation

It sounds to me as if the father has accepted the situation as it is - there's basically no way any change in law would be made in time to let nature take its course - and so is making the best of it (perhaps even not really speaking about if he wanted to pull the plug because he wouldn't want to break his child's heart when the child found out its father was ready to let it die if the fetus does make it); he does love his family, so he's going to devote himself to the fetus and hope that it's born and can make it and actually live a life of something other than pain; now the father's goal is to really spread awareness of the situation and, if need is seen, to bring a change in the law

~

 

It's incredibly creepy to me how young the fetus is and they're just going to continue to force a corpse to have artificial life in order to incubate the fetus until they can remove it. 14 weeks. That's barely second trimester. It isn't even halfway through a pregnancy. *shudders*

This story is actually two weeks old. Here's the article I posted about it two weeks ago on another forum I'm on. (Yeah, I know, Yahoo's probably not the most reliable)

 

According to this article, she was blue by the time he found her, and he believes the fetus might be seriously damaged because while he doesn't know how long she was lying there before she was discovered, she was deprived of oxygen long enough to cause 'massive brain swelling'.

 

She was 14 weeks along when this happened, and according to the article, he had been fighting this for a month (at the time this article was written), so it's not a case of him waiting and is now just finding out he can't pull the plug.

 

Also, just noticed from the recent article that the hospital is refusing to actually declare her brain dead, and that this law wouldn't (or shouldn't, in any case) be applicable if she is brain dead.

 

And of course, there's the looming question of who's going to pay for all this expensive ongoing care, considering that the family didn't want it in the first place.

[MasterWeavile898]

There is actually a thing where you don't own your body once you die. Or something along those lines. And your wishes can be ignored if the state or whatever decides so (Yeah, I don't really remember too well, soarry)

 

Personally, she's dead, that can't be changed. Let the child live, or die as it may be. But what does it matter to her?

 

IDK much about the situation though, I only skimmed enough to get a basic grip on the situation. Apologies if I'm horribubbly misunderstanding things

[KageSora]

And of course, there's the looming question of who's going to pay for all this expensive ongoing care, considering that the family didn't want it in the first place.

Won't happen, but I say the hospital should just eat the expenses.

 

Not only are the refusing to respect the wishes she had regarding her lack of treatment in the case of "let die, or kept on life support" (though does that count for brain death? or is that just for being like in a potentially reversible coma or something?) but they're refusing to respect the wishes of her family.

 

There is no way in hell they should be forced to pay for "treatment" that they (and the "patient") didn't want and that is pretty ridiculous considering she's a corpse and the fetus seems like it'd probably have some serious complications from all this--in the event it event ends up surviving, that is.

 

Especially not if the hospital is basically refusing to declare her brain dead JUST for the sake of keeping her as a "living" incubator. :/ I bet that as soon as they get the fetus out of her, they'll be like "oh hey, now she's brain dead u can take her off here's ur kid u owe us tons of money bye"

 

 

Also, if it survives, that poor kid. I mean, what the hell do you tell them? Certainly not "So, your mom was dead for weeks before you were born. Her corpse was kept 'alive' to incubate you against her wishes and the wishes of her family and your father". :/

Edited January 4, 2014 by KageSora

[Syaoransbear]

I read the article linked and several others and none of them gave me the impression you seem to have gotten. o_O

 

Here's what I got (just putting it in list format because it's easier for me):

The hospital is not giving the family a choice AT ALL

The family wanted to let nature take its course

The parents, if not also the husband (it sounded as if he was too, but most articles seemed to focus on the parents here), were ready to say good-bye when the hospital dropped the bombshell that they couldn't "pull the plug" since they had detected a fetal heartbeat

The mother collapsed and was hospitalized when she was just fourteen weeks pregnant

Her dead body is now 19 weeks pregnant, although I either missed it or am just unclear on if she's been on life support this whole time or the family recently decided they were ready to pull the plug at this time and were finally made aware that this wasn't going to happen

The prognosis of the fetus is poor and the husband is really unsure of its future because its outlook is so bleak

Both parents were paramedics - the woman was confident, after going through a situation where her brother was kept alive via machines for a while, that she never wanted to go through that and the man agreed

The couple had a previous child and the father is mostly worried about protecting his toddler son from backlash of the situation

It sounds to me as if the father has accepted the situation as it is - there's basically no way any change in law would be made in time to let nature take its course - and so is making the best of it (perhaps even not really speaking about if he wanted to pull the plug because he wouldn't want to break his child's heart when the child found out its father was ready to let it die if the fetus does make it); he does love his family, so he's going to devote himself to the fetus and hope that it's born and can make it and actually live a life of something other than pain; now the father's goal is to really spread awareness of the situation and, if need is seen, to bring a change in the law

~

 

It's incredibly creepy to me how young the fetus is and they're just going to continue to force a corpse to have artificial life in order to incubate the fetus until they can remove it. 14 weeks. That's barely second trimester. It isn't even halfway through a pregnancy. *shudders*

Hm I don't know how but somehow I got the impression that the father was supporting it when he said that the baby was wanted, but I guess it's more like he's not saying much at all. Still, I have trouble believing any pregnant mother with a wanted child would want to be taken off life support. It's not like she's being inconvenienced. Being on life support when you're brain dead just seems like it's painful for the family members, incredibly futile, and needlessly expensive, and that's why people decide they do not want to be put on life support. But if there is actually a possibility of a baby being born it seems like that would change a lot, especially in the mind of a mother with a wanted baby.

 

If anyone on this forum is also on a parenting or baby forum they should do a poll regarding this scenario.

 

I definitely think this law needs to be clarified. Maybe they think that taking the mother off life support is almost like an abortion without her permission?

[Kestra15]

So, apparently, in Texas--despite her wishes--a brain dead woman is being kept on life support because she's pregnant. Let me reiterate--she is legally dead--not just in a coma or anything. And they're keeping her on life support because she's pregnant. Despite her wishes being that she did not want to be on life support if the situation ever came up.

 

This is apparently legal in a number of states?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/experts-weigh-...nt-woman-alive/

You are kidding me.

 

Basically that woman's body is now nothing more than an organic incubator. If it wasn't for the filters on this site I would be absolutely raging; all I can say is I damn sure never going to visit your screwed-up country. This flies in the face of every legal, ethical and moral code physicians are sworn to uphold, and is an utter disgrace to the American legal and medical professions.

[brairtrainer]

Though this isn't abortion related it is related to the current topic: http://news.yahoo.com/life-brain-death-bod...-161202769.html

 

Pretty much a girls family has been ordered by the court to remove her from life support because she is brain dead. There are several comments about how certain processes can't maintain themselves even with machines, from our nurses and doctors here is this correct? If it is could the hospitals doctors be tried with harming the fetus of the woman we were talking about by keeping it in a body that would still decay?

[Hylian Dragon]

If everything goes well and the child is safely 'born' then it's going to leave a slightly disturbing family legacy. I hope the child isn't told it's mother was already dead several months before it was born. If so, at least move someplace the neighbors and school kids won't know. Poor child. Assuming it survives, that is.

 

Can something like this be true? It feels more like a horror story than reality. I need to get my tubes tied asap.

[sparkle10184]

It seems like every day this country is taking away more and more rights -.-

This is just wrong in so many ways. If the woman explicitly stated she never wanted to go on life support then the doctors have no right to put her on it. Whether she's dead or not, it was still her body and she made it clear what she wanted done to it. It's even sicker that the family wants the plug pulled and the doctors are STILL refusing. It must be so traumatizing for the family. Not to mention what that child's life is gonna be like if it does survive. Having to hold the burden of that knowledge on its shoulders? Ugh.