Abortion

[Fuzzbucket]

Agreed 500%

 

Oh no I only meant being able to opt out of the "teaching kids about taking care of a child by using a doll" thing. Not being able to opt out of sex-ed. That'd be silly D:

I know - but give them a wedge of opting out and pretty soon those backward parents will take a mile....

 

Silly - yes indeed. And there are a HUGE number of very very silly parents who, given the choice, would have their children opted out of the lot. They MUST not be allowed to.

[Brite]

I actually couldn't handle it. The doll stressed me out to where I vomited several times and passed out. The nurse thought I was being dramatic (what a !) but the teacher was forced to removed the doll from my "care" and instead give out a written assignment. This is when I first knew I couldn't deal with children or pregnancy.

[Fuzzbucket]

I actually couldn't handle it. The doll stressed me out to where I vomited several times and passed out. The nurse thought I was being dramatic (what a !) but the teacher was forced to removed the doll from my "care" and instead give out a written assignment. This is when I first knew I couldn't deal with children or pregnancy.

Well there you go. The programme works... (a hard lesson for you, ghostchilli - but it taught exactly what needed to be taught.)

[Aprilis]

I believe my high school still gives out the baby dolls that cry. I remember a friend of mine was in that class and let me hold it- it weighs as much as a real baby so it's surprisingly heavy. I ended up slowly bending it's head back until it started to cry. OOPS

 

Good thing I know better than to do that with a real baby.

There was a girl who rode the same bus that I did that had one of those dolls. It wouldn't stop crying, and the rest of the students were getting angry because "mom" wasn't doing anything about it (I can't remember if she said there was nothing she could do). Finally, another girl marched up to where they were sitting, grabbed the doll, and rocked it to sleep.

[Fuzzbucket]

There was a girl who rode the same bus that I did that had one of those dolls. It wouldn't stop crying, and the rest of the students were getting angry because "mom" wasn't doing anything about it (I can't remember if she said there was nothing she could do). Finally, another girl marched up to where they were sitting, grabbed the doll, and rocked it to sleep.

Another lesson learned the right way - the "carer" was shown how to look after it !

[Brite]

Some schools make you have the doll for a week (HA no thanks)

 

Mine only made us have them for 2-3 days. I only had mine for 3 hours before my mind said "no more"

[St. Jimmy]

Well there you go. The programme works... (a hard lesson for you, ghostchilli - but it taught exactly what needed to be taught.)

Mental torture doesn't seem like the right way to teach a lesson.

[CatCreature]

@ CatCreature - exactly ! EXCELLENT stuff ! ALL children need that.

Okay, that's it. Sweden needs to sit down with the United States and have a loooooong conversation about what "sex ed" should really be. (Goodness I envy you guys)

You know what the funny thing is? We found this education to be very... basic. It was like anatomy lessons but with emberrassed teachers.

 

And the Youth Clinic was something nobody mentioned ever visiting, a very 'hush-hush' thing. But at the same time it was a relief that we had a place with trained nurses to visit.

[KageSora]

You have forgotten one thing that makes a LOT of difference, going by Scandinavian and Dutch research and sex-ed:

 

Relationship education. What makes a good relationship; give and take, commitment, sharing, mutual respect and responsibility, gender equality etc.

 

When you know how to see others as equals, and to discuss things, it takes a lot of the other stuff away. Discuss sex before bed; one person expresses concern about pregnancy - other person listens; sex does not take place.

 

Oh - and also parenting education - from about the age of 10 you can start this. What is involved in looking after a child; how to change a nappy, bath it, feeding etc. That knowledge is even sadly lacking in many ADULTS, and starting way early gives the kids the chance to be REALLY good baby-sitters in their teens, too. Those baby dolls they use (the ones that are programmed to scream all night and the rest - and that record how well they were looked after, so the kid cannot put it in the garage and wear earplugs all night - the doll will TELL !) are EXCELLENT for this. REALLY make the kids think.

 

http://www.realityworks.com/products/realcare-baby

Mmm, yeah, that's true, I did forget that.

 

That would really be very useful, I think.

 

Though I though I covered the parenting stuff, oops. Coulda sworn I put that in there. Ah well, the dangers of editing the post about 30 times before posting it!

 

Though I'm against forcing the use of those babies. Mostly for reasons others have said--I can tell you right now, if my brother had brought one home for a class, I'd have been royally pissed. I -hate- those things.

 

I'd suggest being allowed to opt out of taking it HOME, but being forced to carry it around during the day without the ability to opt out unless you could demonstrate that you already were aware of how much commitment raising a child is. I would argue that this would need to be done on the day the assignment was announced rather than allowing the kids to go home and get a list of reasons from mommy and daddy.

 

I got out of taking care of a doll--and it wasn't even a screaming one, just one of those "we're trusting that you're actually taking care of it like you're recording that you are in your journal" things--by successfully convincing the teacher I knew it would be a massive drain on my resources that I wasn't willing to make as well as having several conditions that could be genetically passed on and not wanting that for any potential children, thus knowing full well that I don't want kids of my own (and that if I ever changed my mind, that I was already aware that it was a massive, life-changing choice). My classmate managed to argue much the same--the classmates who couldn't demonstrate that they knew that were forced to take the babies. We got alternate assignments relating to babies. (I had to research SIDS)

 

Kagesoras idea would fill an academic curriculum gor 3 years.

My idea is that it should start young--like grade school. Start with things like puberty, and discussing the idea of consent. Then, as the children age, slowly add more information and then continue to elaborate on the information they already learned in years down the line.

 

It shouldn't just be a "Here's your one pitifully short class, we'll teach you some stuff but that's all you'll probably learn unless you do independent research or your parents are really good at teaching you this stuff" kind of deal. It needs to be on-going for multiple years in order to provide a good scope of information.

[Ripan]

This is what I remember from my ancient time in school (ignoring the fact that our school books were even more antique...)

 

Swedish sex ed is called 'sex and relationship education'.

We got taught about puberty and what happens inside your body and why. Both male and female.

Menstruation cycle.

Male and female genitalia.

How to get pregnant, penis go into vagina, sperm goes here, egg goes there and this is what happens when they meet. Big emphasis about 'it only takes ONE sperm to make someone pregnant, so yes you could end up with a pregnancy the first time, during your period, in the bath and so on. Sperms can live for several days inside the woman so having sex when she's NOT ovulating might fail too.

Pictures of embryo, fetus and new born. (Still remember the photo of the baby with only it's head out.  )

STD's and the emphasis of using condoms.

Other contraceptives.

Heterosexuality is when you fall in love with the opposite sex/gender, homosexuality is when you fall in love with the same sex/gender.

Don't have sex until you're ready.

 

And last but not least. Sweden has Youth Clinics that are free of charge for kids. (Age differs between regions but it's usually up to 20+)

The teachers told us several times the adress of the clinic in our town and that we can go there to get help with all kinds of things regarding sexuality. Questions, symptoms, condoms, birth control or STD testing.

In addition to this I remember:

 

- Once a homosexual woman and a bisexual man volunteered to visit and answer any questions we might have about anything regarding their love and sex lives.

 

- The relationship-part of the education was also coupled with teaching us about warning signals that your partner might be abusive and controlling, and what to do and where to turn in a situation like that.

 

- They also put heavy emphasis on that you should not allow anyone to pressure you into sex.

 

- Later on there was also some biology and natural science classes that brought up things like conception and how a child is formed on a more in-depth cellular level. Also how genetic heritage works.

[7Deadly$ins]

I would have hated doing the baby doll thing. I'm not and never was some kind of idiot who thinks taking care of a baby would be easy, and I don't think it's fair to force everyone to have to do an assignment which so heavily impacts everything else in their lives. Yes, that's the point. That doesn't mean it's a lesson everyone should have to learn. It was optional in my school. We don't force kids to live on the streets for a week to teach them that homelessness is tough in order to encourage them to save money.

[HeatherMarie]

I would have hated doing the baby doll thing. I'm not and never was some kind of idiot who thinks taking care of a baby would be easy, and I don't think it's fair to force everyone to have to do an assignment which so heavily impacts everything else in their lives. Yes, that's the point. That doesn't mean it's a lesson everyone should have to learn. It was optional in my school. We don't force kids to live on the streets for a week to teach them that homelessness is tough in order to encourage them to save money.

I completely agree with this. Teaching students about life and what to expect (work, bills, responsibility, etc) is a good thing. Forcing every single student, no matter their circumstances, to care for a screaming doll that interferes with *everyone*'s life, uh no thanks. At that age I already knew I would never have a child, so that stupid baby doll would have done nothing productive whatsoever. Thankfully I never had to do it.

[Brite]

I completely agree with this. Teaching students about life and what to expect (work, bills, responsibility, etc) is a good thing. Forcing every single student, no matter their circumstances, to care for a screaming doll that interferes with *everyone*'s life, uh no thanks. At that age I already knew I would never have a child, so that stupid baby doll would have done nothing productive whatsoever. Thankfully I never had to do it.

My classmate received a negative grade. He neglected the doll to the point where it went into "Neglect self-shutoff" mode, which the teacher didn't even know could happen. Basically if it were a real baby, it would've been dead.

[TwilitProphet]

Yeah that baby doll didn't seem to really teach my peers anything. Heck most of them joked about taping magnets to it to mess with the electronic bits inside it. Or taping/tying things around it's head and neck so the head couldn't move at all. Basically it wasn't teaching them how to take care of a baby, it was teaching them how to get around taking care of an electronic baby doll.

[edwardelricfreak]

Narvix, I'm sorry for people attacking your opinions. What I saw wasn't anything super bad, though. I saw you stating your opinions, and then others saying their opinions and what some of the faults were in your viewpoints. Sometimes I think that your wording and even theirs were a little extreme. I guess pointing out some faults could be seen as attacking...but debates are meant for putting forth arguments using opinions and facts. Or that's what I thought...

 

Slaskia, there are herbal methods that can easily be obtained from stores or from the wilderness itself.

I know that there were herbal contraceptives. I can see them MAYBE being found in SOME stores, more likely specialty ones than a Wal-Mart or Target or something.

 

And unless you know your plants backwards and forwards, I doubt that they're easily obtained from the wilderness. Also I hate tea. I don't know what to use to make tea and I don't care because I think all tea, except for lemon iced tea, tastes disgusting.

 

There are more contraceptives than just condoms or even pills. There are sponges, foams, female condoms, shots, and even a rod that goes in the woman's arm, to name a few. Herbal remedies are another, and there's even the cycle method which uses the time that the woman is least likely to get pregnant. Most people only know about condoms and pills. Proper sex ed would be able to educate about even more than just the two. Condoms would be a lot more effective if we actually taught how to properly use them (which I didn't even learn until I took my proper sex ed class at church). AND it's better to use more than one form, for example, if you use a condom for the guy and the girl took pills and even used the morning-after pill. It's still not a perfect 100% but it's DAMN close.

 

That's not the point but, fine. In your definition, what would be proper sex ed? Being taught about STD's is not for the purpose of scaring you and being taught abstinence has connections to when the Bible was still taught in public schools.

 

I've had sex ed in a few different forms. One from my parents in the form of a book called Where Did I Come From?, and others in school lectures. One lecture example mentioned jumping around from sex partner to sex partner using a piece of duct tape; it loses it's adhesiveness which was the comparison for someone's ability to form a true relationship to the individual who jumps around.

 

As I see it, sex ed should be, and is about, the consequences - good or bad - with having sex. This includes STDs, HIVs, AIDs, abstinence, and the like.

Proper sex ed should be more than scaring people into thinking sex is wrong and dirty and it only results in STDs and pregnancy and abstinence is the only way to go.

 

Quoting my own post below. Amazingly I didn't learn proper sex ed from school or even my own mother. It took a completely separate class (actually two classes) to teach me everything I know. It didn't scare me, I felt comfortable and knowledgeable afterwards, and I can actually pass on that information to others and they end up more comfortable and knowledgeable about it, too. Proper sex ed should teach people to have sex when they're fully prepared and emotionally and physically ready. Usually marriage is a good point in time to wait till but not always, which is why teaching that is better than just abstinence.

 

Also, a note: I didn't post it in the post I quoted, but we were also encouraged to write an anonymous note, either a question or a comment/response to the day's lesson, that were then put into a box and read and answered aloud during the following meeting. It helped a lot and cleared up anything we were confused about.

 

I learned PROPER sex ed from my church. It's a Unitarian Universalist church specifically. The class was called OWL standing for "Our Whole Lives" and went in depth about puberty, the genitalia, orgasms, the different types of sex, all different kinds of STDs and their types and cures if any, all the different kinds of birth control (including many I didn't even know existed!), PLUS other things like relationships (not just romantic but even familial ones), the differences between sex and gender, and even about the different forms of gender and sexual preferences. I'm pretty sure I even learned other things too but I learned so much I can't even remember it all at the moment to list it. I took two classes, one during 7th grade that lasted for the whole fall semester, and one during my senior year which extended on what I learned and also lasted for a whole semester.

 

I LOVED my OWL class. I strongly wish for it to be taught nationwide. It made me feel comfortable about sex and not awkward about any of it. I used to feel ashamed and awkward and weird but after that class I just rolled my eyes at the idiots giggling in the sex ed classes at my schools and carried on knowing that they were just ignorant and had parents who stifled their learning experience.

 

I'm proud that I'm not stupid and ignorant about sex. I'm proud to say I've had it, it's consensual, and it's with someone I care deeply for. I'm not ashamed of it at all. I used to be in the crowd that giggled about genitalia and hid my pads and tried not to let anyone see that, oh no, I was going through puberty and menstruating, the horror! /sarcasm

 

 

 

moving on to other things...

 

I completely agree with this. Teaching students about life and what to expect (work, bills, responsibility, etc) is a good thing. Forcing every single student, no matter their circumstances, to care for a screaming doll that interferes with *everyone*'s life, uh no thanks. At that age I already knew I would never have a child, so that stupid baby doll would have done nothing productive whatsoever. Thankfully I never had to do it.

I actually really like the idea of the parenting class with the baby dolls, but I agree that it should NOT be mandatory.

 

Learning about bills, preparing for interviews, etc, YES. Those should DEFINITELY be mandatory. I could also see teaching about how to take care of children and your family, but no, the babies should be opt-in. It's a burden on everyone and I think only those interested would be able to still take care of them if they wanted to. I kind of wish my school had had a parenting class because I was actually interested in trying to see if I could even handle a doll.

[KageSora]

and there's even the cycle method which uses the time that the woman is least likely to get pregnant.

Just to point out, though, that's only useful if you're always 100% regular--and even then, just one thing throwing it off can screw you over.

 

Periods can be missed or late for any number of reasons that you may not be able to control. So relying on that may not be a good idea, unless you're using at least one other means of pregnancy prevention.

 

 

Mostly just pointing it out because one of the nice, popular myths about periods is that they're always regular for every female. It never hurts to re-state that many female-bodied people have periods that are either regular on a different schedule from "once a month" to "never been regular in my life" and everything in between.

[babybluefire]

My cycle is so irregular that it was extremely difficult for me to get pregnant at all. Trying to watch my cycle to avoid pregnancy wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of working.

 

 

The women shaming and blaming is not ok. Rape culture is huge in the US. Even if she says no loudly and clearly the male may not listen. Then try getting anyone to help or believe her is rare. Heck when I was in highschool and said no to a boy he was so angry he ran around telling everyone I had sex with him anyways to try and ruin my reputation. The only thing that "saved" my "reputation" was he said the sex took place on a date and time I was with my parents.

 

 

The shaming, blaming and peer pressure makes me feel like the legality of abortion is even more necessary than ever, even though I hate the idea of abortion.

[edwardelricfreak]

Just to point out, though, that's only useful if you're always 100% regular--and even then, just one thing throwing it off can screw you over.

 

Periods can be missed or late for any number of reasons that you may not be able to control.  So relying on that may not be a good idea, unless you're using at least one other means of pregnancy prevention.

 

 

Mostly just pointing it out because one of the nice, popular myths about periods is that they're always regular for every female.  It never hurts to re-state that many female-bodied people have periods that are either regular on a different schedule from "once a month" to "never been regular in my life" and everything in between.

Oh please, there's no need to lecture ME of all people about irregular periods. x) I'm probably one of the more extremes. I NEVER know when my next period will be. I had started taking birth control pills to regulate them but I only had a prescription for three months. But really, I can go for several months to a YEAR without getting period. I would MAYBE occasionally get spotting for a day or two and that would be IT.

 

I'm just stating the cycle method because it IS a form of contraception, among others. It's certainly not the best (and I did read all of the other posts about irregularity ).

 

(Besides, I'm kind of an 18-year-old female. I think I know about periods :U)

Edited January 8, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[KageSora]

Like I said--I was just re-stating that because, with the sheer number of people who honestly believe it's a magical, perfectly timed occurrence for everybody it never hurts to re-state that timing-based methods are actually pretty useless to a lot of people and WHY they are.

 

Even if you know it, I guarantee there'll be at least one person reading through here who never realized they could be irregular. IIRC there've been people in this thread in the past who learned from here that it's not always like clockwork.

[edwardelricfreak]

Indeed. It just goes to show how lacking we are in proper sex ed...

[KageSora]

Indeed. It just goes to show how lacking we are in proper sex ed...

And it's also a dangerous thing--it can frighten somebody to not be regular if they don't realize that it's their natural "cycle".

 

It's also something that needs to be taught because you need to be aware of it so you can inform your doctor if they want you to track your periods--if you're never regular, that's something they need to be aware of.

[Brite]

And it's also a dangerous thing--it can frighten somebody to not be regular if they don't realize that it's their natural "cycle".

 

It's also something that needs to be taught because you need to be aware of it so you can inform your doctor if they want you to track your periods--if you're never regular, that's something they need to be aware of.

Girls in my middle school weren't taught that much in female reproduction. A lot of girls were too ashamed to tell the nurse or a doctor what was going on with their cycles. Some girls were even PICKED on if they had a heavy cycle or irregular. We weren't taught that cycles aren't perfect and there can be many irregular or heavy OR light. So the girls in my school thought that if you didn't have perfect cycles, you were a freak that had something wrong with you, or even a disease. Yea, it was that bad.

Edited January 8, 2014 by GhostChilli

[whitebaron]

Like I said--I was just re-stating that because, with the sheer number of people who honestly believe it's a magical, perfectly timed occurrence for everybody it never hurts to re-state that timing-based methods are actually pretty useless to a lot of people and WHY they are.

thats why you dnt use timing-based methods all alone. Temperature, mucus, and a little practice. My wife can perfectly tell when, even though she is between 25 and 45 days.

 

Btw: there's also stuff like persona/clearblue monitors, that measure hormones. They are a little bit more precise, but also rather expensive.

[Fuzzbucket]

thats why you dnt use timing-based methods all alone. Temperature, mucus, and a little practice. My wife can perfectly tell when, even though she is between 25 and 45 days.

 

Btw: there's also stuff like persona/clearblue monitors, that measure hormones. They are a little bit more precise, but also rather expensive.

Your wife is very lucky. I used to work for a doctor - and I can assure you that even doing THAT won't guarantee avoiding pregnancy.

 

Luckily he was always prepared to refer women for abortions unless they were using it as their only form of birth control I worked for him for many years. We came across exactly two who just - didn't try. After their second/third abortions, he took to charging them for the referral letters (the only thing he could legally charge for, as health card in Canada is free, praise be !) and amazingly both came in for contraceptive advice afterwards !

 

And both those repeat-offender women were in their thirties. Not one SINGLE teenager ever came for abortion referral more than once. and almost all our teen patients who came in about sex-related issues wanted contraceptive advice. Teens are NOT all feckless idiots ! If they are aware there are things they can do, precautions they can take - they will usually take them.

Edited January 8, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Shienvien]

Usually marriage is a good point in time to wait till but not always, which is why teaching that is better than just abstinence.

I actually consider waiting until marriage a very bad idea, and would honestly advise people to try at least once before marriage. Getting married first and then finding out that they are completely incompatible in that regard is a sad thing (and will positively ruin the relationship if both have at least remotely high sex drives).