Abortion

[Vhale]

In light of the new laws in Michigan (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/michigan-puts-restrictions-abortion-insurance-21187237) what do you guys think? Should health insurance be allowed to cover the costs of abortion?

From my understanding, part of what makes this law so bad is that if a woman has a miscarriage and the fetus doesn't pop out during that, this bill is so bad, it makes it illegal for the insurance to cover the procedure to clean out her womb and get the dead tissue removed. (Edit, that would be covered by the extra insurance they have to buy)

Edited December 14, 2013 by Vhale

[ShinyTomato]

But then the term "pro-life" becomes oxymoronic. If you're "pro-life", it should be for ALL life, not just the growing organism in a woman's womb.

To be fair, individuals didn't come up with it. I have a friend that calls herself "pro-baby" ut every time abortion comes up she has to explain herself. People tend to think she's Quiverful or anti-childfree instead.

 

It's reached a point where "pro-life" in a cultural context means anti-abortion and if you call it anything else, even anti-abortion, everyone tries to correct you.

[Brite]

To be fair, individuals didn't come up with it. I have a friend that calls herself "pro-baby" ut every time abortion comes up she has to explain herself. People tend to think she's Quiverful or anti-childfree instead.

 

It's reached a point where "pro-life" in a cultural context means anti-abortion and if you call it anything else, even anti-abortion, everyone tries to correct you.

If someone tried correcting me on that, I'd ask what exactly they meant by PROLIFE. There's a trickle of REAL pro-lifers nowadays.

[Bacon_Strips]

I think NobleOwl showed us a quote on why Catholics scream in people's faces over it. I forgot what it all said but some of it went like this:

 

.Don't be afraid to raise your voice or insult

.In the end you'll know you saved a baby's life

 

Yea I don't remember much, lol, but it was very ridiculous.

On why some Catholics scream in people's faces about it. Clearly a vocal group doesn't not represent the majority of a people, nor should it.

[Brite]

On why some Catholics scream in people's faces about it. Clearly a vocal group doesn't not represent the majority of a people, nor should it.

Yes some, sorry. If you're offended, I apologize.

[MinervaClay]

There is a huge difference between having a green light and actually letting the woman die hence I claim again that if that ridiculous law ever becomes a reality I am 100% certain that no doctor will let a pregnant woman die on his table simply because the law allows him to.

The most basic principal of every doctor is to save a life, no doctor will stand and do nothing because they took an oath to do just that and because it would make zero sense to let a pregnant woman die, her dying would also kill the baby so there is nothing to gain.

Regardless of that, if the law is to become a reality it still wont change the basic law which is - a mother or a father have the right to decide whether to save the baby or the mother in case of a life risking procedure...

Either way you go about it, doctors will have to save the mother over a child even if it means doing the abortion...

Quoting in something from TWO YEARS AGO since this thread is huge and ancient and there's no way I can read it all tonight.

 

This is incorrect.

 

It does and has happened. It's happened in America. It's happened in other countries.

 

Your moral code is not everyone's moral code, and you can't expect everyone to operate under your moral code.

 

Women HAVE been left to die as an unviable pregnancy violently terminated itself inside her, just because the location they were in decided it was against their ethical reasons and they had no legal reason forcing them to do it.

 

It does happen. It has happened. And if certain laws pass it will continue to happen.

[Fuzzbucket]

Quoting in something from TWO YEARS AGO since this thread is huge and ancient and there's no way I can read it all tonight.

 

This is incorrect.

 

It does and has happened.  It's happened in America.  It's happened in other countries.

 

Your moral code is not everyone's moral code, and you can't expect everyone to operate under your moral code.

 

Women HAVE been left to die as an unviable pregnancy violently terminated itself inside her, just because the location they were in decided it was against their ethical reasons and they had no legal reason forcing them to do it.

 

It does happen.  It has happened.  And if certain laws pass it will continue to happen.

This. It happened in Ireland recently, too.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

 

It TOTALLY sucks. But to those who say the mother will be saved - not so. And this is not the only case, just the most recent I am aware of. Though at least Ireland realised how wrong it was and changed the law:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/...-legal-abortion

Edited December 24, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[MinervaClay]

I believe Ireland was the one I was actually thinking of. I was like "It was scotland or ireland..."

[Htt71]

Hey lookie here, I'm back with more controversial opinions than most of the people here can fathom!

Note I added in a ton of out takes noted by parentheses.

 

New Talking Point ~~~~~~~>

Isn't a similar (kinda) issue going on with animal rights? That the living being (You can't deny me a fetus is living.) should have consent on their use in experimentation or death completely? I think they should, after all I don't want to get tested on or killed (but who the hell cares about my opinions eh?)

 

Note from the past <~~~~~~~

I think I was being a bit harsh earlier on saying it was LIKE MURDER. However, don't twist my words when I say I do believe it is wrong and should be abolished in MOST (I can't stress this enough) cases. I do have very conservative and Catholic (Oh here we go... Another Catholic come to preach to us) biases, but nevertheless I have my own opinions that shape in my way. I.E. I don't blindly follow the church, but if you don't believe me check my opinions about gay rights/marriage. I understand you have full control of what goes on in your body, but still, it's LIVING. Also, what about teenagers that get pregnant, or what about young adults (because I get this all the time.) Well to some extent I think it's necessary, but teens (ENEMY RADICAL OPINION INBOUND!) need to seriously keep their hormones under control. Like some people say, you have all control of what goes on in your body. This is right, so why should the fetus suffer because you made a stupid mistake that you can't handle the consequences of. Also, giving teens all his planned parenthood and free birth control is ENCOURAGING, hell, practically welcoming them to have sex, because they suffer no consequences whatsoever. What is happening to our generation!?!?

[Htt71]

(continued)

Let me even delve into rape. (oooh busting out the big gray area) Abortion is then choice, I'm my opinion. If you do not have consent of what is going on inside of your body because of rape, abortion is a good choice. Now, is it still killing,(I really need to phrase that better) yes it is, but is it more ethical, yes it is.

[Syaoransbear]

Hey lookie here, I'm back with more controversial opinions than most of the people here can fathom!

Note I added in a ton of out takes noted by parentheses.

 

New Talking Point ~~~~~~~>

Isn't a similar (kinda) issue going on with animal rights? That the living being (You can't deny me a fetus is living.) should have consent on their use in experimentation or death completely? I think they should, after all I don't want to get tested on or killed (but who the hell cares about my opinions eh?)

 

Note from the past <~~~~~~~

I think I was being a bit harsh earlier on saying it was LIKE MURDER. However, don't twist my words when I say I do believe it is wrong and should be abolished in MOST (I can't stress this enough) cases. I do have very conservative and Catholic (Oh here we go... Another Catholic come to preach to us) biases, but nevertheless I have my own opinions that shape in my way. I.E. I don't blindly follow the church, but if you don't believe me check my opinions about gay rights/marriage. I understand you have full control of what goes on in your body, but still, it's LIVING. Also, what about teenagers that get pregnant, or what about young adults (because I get this all the time.) Well to some extent I think it's necessary, but teens (ENEMY RADICAL OPINION INBOUND!) need to seriously keep their hormones under control. Like some people say, you have all control of what goes on in your body. This is right, so why should the fetus suffer because you made a stupid mistake that you can't handle the consequences of. Also, giving teens all his planned parenthood and free birth control is ENCOURAGING, hell, practically welcoming them to have sex, because they suffer no consequences whatsoever. What is happening to our generation!?!?

So you think teenagers should be forced to give birth because they didn't 'keep their hormones under control'? You really think someone's entire reason for living should be as a punishment to their mother?

[Htt71]

You think we should encourage more death because a mother wasn't thinking?

And no, not forced to give birth. I'm just saying, that it should be STRONGLY ADVISED to get their stuff together. Less loss, less encouragement for pre-adult sex, less expense.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Htt71

[KageSora]

Oh, okay. Let's punish teens for crappy to non-existent "sexual education" by forcing them to give birth to children who they're no prepared to care for. (Special fun fact! A lot of teens get little to no sex-ed because of overly religious parents who think getting sex ed will somehow encourage them to have sex! I did a mini-presentation on it. Found multiple stories where "sex ed" was basically "IF YOU HAVE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE YOU GET AIDS AND GO TO HELL".)

 

Sound much more like a punishment to hte child, IMO.

 

Also, stop sex-shaming. Nothing wrong with having as much or as little sex as you want as long as it's responsible. Now, what would help is PROVIDING THIGNS TO ALLOW SAFE SEX TO HAPPEN MORE READILY instead of, y'know, them just going out and screwing each other anyway without education or protection.

 

 

But hey--a tapeworm is LIVING too, y'know. But you'd probably rather kill that then have it live inside you and steal your nutrients, right?

 

 

Also, animals =/= humans. Animals are unable to give consent in the way humans are, therefore it's not actually comparable to testing on animals.

 

Actually, I'd compare being forced to carry a parasite inside you for 9 months then be forced to give birth to it to be a cruelty much more comparable to some kinds of animal testing than aborting something before it even has the chance to know what life--and thus pain or death--happens to be.

 

 

Why should a fetus suffer your mistakes, indeed? I mean, why on earth would you WANT to force a child to be born to a parent who is not capable of supporting it and may, in fact, be incapable of loving it? Why would you want a child to be born into a situation where it has a much higher chance of being neglected or abused? And why would you want it to be born only to be rejected by those who spawned it and chucked into a system where it will have a statistically higher chance of never finding a loving family?

 

Sounds an awful lot worse for the child to be born than the fetus to be aborted to me.

 

 

Besides "children are a punishment for not keeping your legs closed" is a HORRIBLE mindset. Children should be a blessing, not a curse. They should be wanted and loved, not unwanted unloved burdens.

 

:/

Edited December 30, 2013 by KageSora

[Syaoransbear]

You think we should encourage more death because a mother wasn't thinking?

Your opinions encourage death as well. You say we should discourage death yet we should also discourage birth control, which would prevent that death far better than abstinence education ever has. And you also think that just because someone was raped that gives them the right to, in your opinion, kill another human being. Why? A life is a life. How it was made is irrelevant.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Syaoransbear

[Infinis]

New Talking Point ~~~~~~~>

Isn't a similar (kinda) issue going on with animal rights? That the living being (You can't deny me a fetus is living.) should have consent on their use in experimentation or death completely? I think they should, after all I don't want to get tested on or killed (but who the hell cares about my opinions eh?)

 

Note from the past <~~~~~~~

I think I was being a bit harsh earlier on saying it was LIKE MURDER. However, don't twist my words when I say I do believe it is wrong and should be abolished in MOST (I can't stress this enough) cases. I do have very conservative and Catholic (Oh here we go... Another Catholic come to preach to us) biases, but nevertheless I have my own opinions that shape in my way. I.E. I don't blindly follow the church, but if you don't believe me check my opinions about gay rights/marriage. I understand you have full control of what goes on in your body, but still, it's LIVING. Also, what about teenagers that get pregnant, or what about young adults (because I get this all the time.) Well to some extent I think it's necessary, but teens (ENEMY RADICAL OPINION INBOUND!) need to seriously keep their hormones under control. Like some people say, you have all control of what goes on in your body. This is right, so why should the fetus suffer because you made a stupid mistake that you can't handle the consequences of. Also, giving teens all his planned parenthood and free birth control is ENCOURAGING, hell, practically welcoming them to have sex, because they suffer no consequences whatsoever. What is happening to our generation!?!?

New talking point:

 

How many people are willing to step forward to participate in experimental early trials of anything, drugs or other? But this is really an argument for a different topic.

 

Old talking point:

 

What is happening to our generation? Progression and rationality and control over with whom and when we reproduce.

 

Providing planned parenthood and birth control does not encourage people to be less responsible. The people who are going to be irresponsible are going to do irresponsible stuff anyway. The best we can do is offer them options to protect themselves from disease and unwanted pregnancies. Remember that most abortions are because of unwanted pregnancies. More unwanted pregnancies = more abortions. There is no way around that.

 

How is one supposed to keep their hormones under control? A teenager's body is going through a gadzillion different changes and they can't usually help it. The fact of the matter is there ARE some things we still do not have control of (hello Todd Akin: no we cannot shut that whole thing down. if only, though, if only). However, birth control can help control hormones in females, iirc. But that's females, and it's not a guarantee.

 

A woman should never be forced to keep an unwanted child - that's a punishment. That is asking for resentment and hatred from the parent to the child. And don't say the adoption and foster system is a good option, because it's not. You could always help advocate for easier hysterectomy options for women who do not want children, though, because currently it's extremely difficult for women without children and/or under a certain age to get one, because many are still under the misguided belief that all women want babies (personally, I hate children and never ever want the things).

 

And what exactly is wrong with people having sex? It's not a thing just for reproduction - basic biology and animal observations counter that one. Why is there such a stigma against people of any age having sex for recreation? What they do in their private time - including abortion or lack thereof - is their business.

 

As to your next post:

 

What is the different between a rape pregnancy and a regular unwanted one? There isn't really a difference. An unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy.

[Htt71]

Responding to KageSora

 

1-3 You act as if (horrible as it sounds) orphanages are non existent.

3 Again still the problem of it being encouraged, and thus causing this to be more of an issue.

4,6 Did you just call the human's first form a parasite? If so that is a huge insult to mankind.

5 Yes, we the high and mighty humans look down upon every living creature that doesn't think as we do and believes they are unworthy us using our ability to judge consent on them.

7-9 I agree that this is a problem, but I don't exactly preach the alternative.

9 If they should be looked on as a blessing, the. Obviously let's take the logic of throwing that blessing out the window.

[Htt71]

Responding to syaoransbear.

 

Actually you didn't prove anything by the fist half. You just stated that death would be stopped better than before.

Secondly, this is a deep shade of gray. Abortion should be treated as a heavy matter and used when absolutely necessary and no less. (opinion) An unwanted baby was caused by the willingness of two people to create it, not the making of one willing and one unwilling. Now, no one can force or not force someone to abort a baby, and some have chosen NOT to abort rape children. There is nothing wrong with this.

[7Deadly$ins]

America does not have orphanages. And only a very small percentage of children that enter the adoption system (I'm talking less than ten percent) actually end up being adopted. And yes, biologically speaking, a fetus is a parasite. This is a definition, not some kind of statement. Taking offense doesn't change the definition.

 

Also, it's possible to respond using only one post.

[Infinis]

Responding to KageSora

 

1-3 You act as if (horrible as it sounds) orphanages are non existent.

3 Again still the problem of it being encouraged, and thus causing this to be more of an issue.

4,6 Did you just call the human's first form a parasite? If so that is a huge insult to mankind.

5 Yes, we the high and mighty humans look down upon every living creature that doesn't think as we do and believes they are unworthy us using our ability to judge consent on them.

7-9 I agree that this is a problem, but I don't exactly preach the alternative.

9 If they should be looked on as a blessing, the. Obviously let's take the logic of throwing that blessing out the window.

Orphanages exist. They just generally aren't great places to be. And the adoption and foster system is a poor option - most children are never adopted or fostered out (I think shiny's or somewhere's stats said something like 3% in a given year out of something like 500k total children in the system...anyone can find this?) and most children that are adopted, last I checked, are healthy white babies. Children in this system often leave it with emotional and psychological problems, including behavioural issues. There's a high rate of depression. Some try to commit suicide. Is this really something you support or would want for any child?

 

From a purely biological standpoint, yes, the human fetus at all stages of prenatal development is a parasite. It takes and takes and takes without giving anything back. It can and will kill the host (the mother). I don't consider it an insult, either, I'm perfectly fine with having been a parasite at one point.

 

children are not a blessing if they're unwanted.

 

An unwanted baby was caused by the willingness of two people to create it, not the making of one willing and one unwilling. Now, no one can force or not force someone to abort a baby, and some have chosen NOT to abort rape children. There is nothing wrong with this.

 

Actually, the sad thing is that you can force someone to abort or keep a baby. There have been plenty of problems like this, in America and elsewhere.

 

An unwanted pregnancy is not caused by people willing to have one. It's caused by lack of protection or improperly used or tampered with protection, or a lack of knowledge regarding how pregnancy and sex work.

 

If we want to help decrease unwanted pregnancies then we need to stop keeping sex and pregnancy as taboo subjects and start actually educating our children about them.

[Lila]

Responding to KageSora

 

1-3 You act as if (horrible as it sounds) orphanages are non existent.

3 Again still the problem of it being encouraged, and thus causing this to be more of an issue.

4,6 Did you just call the human's first form a parasite? If so that is a huge insult to mankind.

5 Yes, we the high and mighty humans look down upon every living creature that doesn't think as we do and believes they are unworthy us using our ability to judge consent on them.

7-9 I agree that this is a problem, but I don't exactly preach the alternative.

9 If they should be looked on as a blessing, the. Obviously let's take the logic of throwing that blessing out the window.

Orphanages are existent, and sub-par.

 

Encouraging sex does not increase pregnancy. Encouraging BC and family planning PREVENTS pregnancy

 

KageSora was just making an analogy. A fetus literally takes nutrients and energy from you, and doesn't give you anything (physically) in return. So in some sense, it WOULD be a parasite.

 

This wasn't a "humans are more important", this was a "humans are self aware and have exploited nature and therefore are obligated to maintain it, so we can do as we wish as long as it is humane and reasonable"

 

A woman should never be cursed with a "blessing".

[Syaoransbear]

Responding to syaoransbear.

 

Actually you didn't prove anything by the fist half. You just stated that death would be stopped better than before.

Secondly, this is a deep shade of gray. Abortion should be treated as a heavy matter and used when absolutely necessary and no less. (opinion) An unwanted baby was caused by the willingness of two people to create it, not the making of one willing and one unwilling. Now, no one can force or not force someone to abort a baby, and some have chosen NOT to abort rape children. There is nothing wrong with this.

Was I trying to prove anything? I was merely confused why you were talking about encouraging death when your opinions encourage more death. In your case, you encourage abstinence protocol which creates far more unwanted children than birth control, which would lead to more abortions.

 

Also, I absolutely do not agree that consenting to have sex is consenting to be pregnant.

[Htt71]

It's either high rate of depression (sadly) or execution. You pick.

Secondly, that was mostly a joke. I completely understand we were parasites, but I'm just saying we start from parasites and become the people we are now, debating over the rights we could not have fought for ourselves before.

Thirdly, true.

Fourth, I was speaking generally, but another gray area arises there with that problem...

Fifth, probably could've chosen my words better. I meant two people willing to have sexual intercourse, but not willing to face possible consequences thereof.

Sixth, I agree, but still hold firm on removing the planned parenthood.

[Obscure_Trash]

1-3 You act as if (horrible as it sounds) orphanages are non existent.

The majority of people who want children are unable to adopt, and as it is, only 2-3% of children [this was 2010, in 2011 this dropped to 1-2%] given up at birth to be adopted through the state are actually adopted.

The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

1 in 3 [children in foster care] will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted.

16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. Another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time.

In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010

 

Only 1-2% of children who are given up to the state for adoption are being adopted.

In children who are not adopted, 73% will state that they wish they had been aborted.

61% will state that their parents were selfish for not aborting them.

1 in 5 under twelve will attempt suicide before the year is out.

1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they were never born.

The average age of social workers placing children on suicide watch nationwide has dropped from 14 to 12.

In states where abortion rights have been restricted since 2010, the incidence in abuse and neglect of infants has risen 45% (with a 2% margin of error.)

Suicides of pregnant women are up 31% (4% margin of error as knowledge is hard to determine.)

 

These are at least 2011 stats but not sure on the exact year. All from ShinyTomato's posts. Links below.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6410063 / http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=5679562 and http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=7823371

 

Please let the number of children committing suicide, the number of children wish they had been aborted, and the number of children who find their parents selfish for not aborting them sink in. Do those stats not pull at your heartstrings? Because they tear me apart. Basically, you're trying to save fetuses (who aren't sentient yet) who are going to grow into children who most likely will try to kill themselves because they don't want the "miracle of life" you've fought to force on them. A fetus can't regret that you didn't "save" it from being aborted. However, a child you forced to be born can regret it, as can the pregnant person you forced to give birth. (And do note that adoption is an alternative to parenting, not to pregnancy.)

 

=(

[Htt71]

These are all factors that are absolutely true, but the reason it is a grey area is you don't have their consent beforehand. I am deeply saddened by those numbers, but I hold my opinion firm (Do not call me heartless for an opinion I was raised and have grown to keep and hold until I die.)

[7Deadly$ins]

These are all factors that are absolutely true, but the reason it is a grey area is you don't have their consent beforehand. I am deeply saddened by those numbers, but I hold my opinion firm (Do not call me heartless for an opinion I was raised and have grown to keep and hold until I die.)

Something that doesn't have the capacity to feel or think doesn't really get the option of choice, in my opinion. I don't believe an acorn is an oak tree.