Abortion

[Brite]

Not if you live anywhere near that ghastly hospital cited above....

I didn't even know it was possible. So correction, if ALL of your body dies, so does the fetus. Her organs are kept alive by the machines, but I'm guessing this is one of those rare crazy cases..

[HeatherMarie]

The fetus also dies if you have a miscarriage brought on by the sheer stress and horror of having a living thing growing inside you and taking your nutrients. The fetus can also die due to any of the *many* life-threatening medical issues that can come *just from being pregnant*.

 

It's not like abortion is about "kill the fetus!!", since there is no guarantee at all that the fetus will be born alive anyways.

[Cecona]

I am so ashamed of the state I was born in....

 

And honestly I believe that people who believe things like adoption being a good and easy option, that pregnancy should be punishment for sex, and that STDs and abstinence is good enough for sex ed are, unfortunately, not very educated in such subject matters.

 

What I did is what everyone should do, I did a bit of extensive research before forming an opinion. I looked at unbiased, factual resources about pregnancy, abortion, adoption, birth control, condoms, and other such related topics. I guess it's easier for me since I'm atheist/agnostic and already look for the facts and truth in everything instead of just believing what I've been told.

 

Abortion is not a bad thing, it's not murder, it's not being irresponsible, it's not taking the easy way out. And honestly if it has nothing to do with you why do you even care?

 

I would like to see someone that is pro-life and actually cares about what happens to the child after birth, but that will never be the case because banning abortion is not about protecting a potential life like most try to believe, it's about punishing women for being sexually active which is a heavily out dated way of thinking. Why is it okay for men to have sex and sleep around but not for women? Why do we need to wait for marriage?

 

The virginity fetish has been in control of society for way too long, it is NOT a bad thing to have sex even if it's with more than one person. You are not a piece of duck tape, you are not a glass of dirty water, you are not a candy bar, you are a human being with natural urges and should NOT be ashamed to fulfill them! The mentality of sex is bad is one of the most harmful things plaguing our world, but people seem to be completely ignoring that and blaming the problems it causes on other things.

 

Teaching about sex will not make people want to have sex more, it will not make them suddenly promiscuous. When has that even happened? cite to me a case where a previously completely non-sexual person went to a sex ed class and suddenly started sleeping around.

 

The whole thing is that pro-choice people are able to easily bring up factual statistics to back up their claims and what they are saying, pro-life people can't do that, and what they do bring is usually nothing but propaganda passed off as fact. They may not know it is propaganda but it's easy enough to find out whether it's true or not.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Cecona

[Fuzzbucket]

Some 25% of ALL pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion.

 

May be much higher, as that figure assumes the knowledge of pregnancy. I am SURE many pregnancies below 12 weeks go undetected and the woman just thinks she's having a very bad period when she aborts.

[whitebaron]

Many women are highly irregular. What does a woman calculate and how when one time she has her periods two weeks apart and then the next time won't be for two months? Also, even if she is otherwise perfectly regular, it can change at any moment. It only takes one egg to be released and managing to plant at unexplected time to get pregnant. There is no predicting that kind of freak occurrences.

I did state NOWHERE that you should not take other precautions as well. Just don't go and have sex with birth control on high failure rate, when you know you are at your most fertile.

[eritated]

I did state NOWHERE that you should not take other precautions as well. Just don't go and have sex with birth control on high failure rate, when you know you are at your most fertile.

I'm pretty sure the point she was trying to make was that a lot of women don't know when they are at their most fertile because many are quite irregular.

[Brite]

I did state NOWHERE that you should not take other precautions as well. Just don't go and have sex with birth control on high failure rate, when you know you are at your most fertile.

Gosh, if I could do something about my fertility, like sterilization, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But that's just as hard as knowing precisely when you're most fertile.

[HeatherMarie]

What they said.

 

Many of us don't have the luxury of a perfectly-timed period, so what are we supposed to do, just never ever have sex because we *might* possibly be fertile then? That's ridiculous.

 

My own "time" can range from once every 3 weeks, for 4 days at a time, to once every 2 months for 7 days at a time. I've *been* to lady-doctors, kept track for months, etc. There is no pattern to be found.

 

Don't say I can't ever have sex just because my body isn't perfectly timed. No, condoms/birth control/etc isn't 100%, but they are the best we have.

[KageSora]

That's not the point but, fine. In your definition, what would be proper sex ed? Being taught about STD's is not for the purpose of scaring you and being taught abstinence has connections to when the Bible was still taught in public schools.

Proper sex-ed would be comprehensive.

 

Full explanation of multiple types of birth control including ease of access, what works best together (and encouragement to use at least two compatible forms), what the costs are, and what the failure rates are. Including 'natural' methods such as the rhythm method, pulling out, and abstinence, etc.

 

Explanations of the way sex works. The mechanics of it from a male and a female side, as well as exploring more than just penile-vaginal penetrative sex. Include sex between non heterosexual couples.

 

Comprehensive STD/STI education. Including which are treatable, which are not, how each one is able to be passed on and what methods of preventing spread of infection are possible. Description of symptoms. Emphasis on regular testing for sexually active people--even when in monogamous relation ships (since some STD/STIs are capable of being picked up in ways other than just having sex).

 

Emphasis on the fact that sex has multiple benefits, and is used for more than just procreation. That it can be recreational when engaged in safely.

 

Emphasis on consent--that only a firm, enthusiastic "yes" from both parties is consent. Emphasis on how wrong it is to engage another sexually without their consent. Emphasis on how being under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol removes the ability to truly consent.

 

Comprehensive information about pregnancy. Including typical symptoms, as well as the more serious ones. Emphasis on the potential complications including death, especially where other medical conditions are added into the mix. Includes the odds of various potentially serious or fatal problems occurring. Information about the cost of pregnancy including pre-natal care and birthing.

 

Comprehensive information about alternatives to parenting such as adoption. This would include the costs associated with it as well as statistics on how often children are successfully placed in "forever homes" via various methods (like being given up to the state or going through a private agency, etc.).

 

Comprehensive information on the costs--to time, energy and money--of raising a child. Stress that you cannot just pick your life right back up after you give birth if you plan to raise the child. Emphasis on what the parent(s) would be forced to give up in order to properly raise the child.

 

Comprehensive information about abortion. Including risks and the odds of those occurring. Also ACCURATE information. Information about the different types of abortion, when each is most likely to be performed, etc.

 

Stress that it take two to make a kid. The male is 50% at fault. However, also stress the importance of bodily autonomy, and that the female should have the final say on what happens in regards to her body no matter what.

 

Comprehensive information on puberty (because I feel these things should start at an early age and continue adding more information as the children get older), for both males and females. Include the fact that not all females are regular with periods--something that I often see overlooked.

 

I really think that would go a long way towards reducing abortion rates and the rates of unwanted pregnancies.

 

 

How can they teach the proper use of condoms or birth control? If that's the intent, then all they can really do before the classroom is read off the instruction sheet for the condoms or the directions for the pills. Besides, in the case of the pills, doctors prescribe different things for different women; no one is the same and can take the exact same thing in the same way. I've seen lectures with the proper use of a condom being taught. That still doesn't stop stupid teenagers from doing stupid things (like unsafe sex despite proper teaching), especially if under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

 

 

They do teach about condoms and birth control. There are also commercials everywhere (which is unfortunate because then children below age 10 are exposed to it when they aren't ready) but, once more, they fail because of improper use, poor manufacturing, wrong size, or not waiting the directed amount of time. I keep saying this do not put full faith in man-made things. Take higher precautions.

 

 

Then that is their moral fault and they must suffer those consequences, the ultimate of which being that they take their own life in the course of the action.

 

The classes I've taken did not use STD's as a scare tactic. They were information bits; plain and simple.

Actually, and there are classes that do this (I was sadly absent the day mine did it(, but they can bring in models of the male and female genitalia and demonstrate the proper ways to apply both male and female condoms.\

 

~Removed~

...Actually it's the fault of cruel, heartless people who shamed and harassed them into believing they had done something wrong by having sex because they insist that pregnancy is the natural punishment for it. And then those very same heartless people told them to suck it up and if they suffered or died well too damn bad.

 

I did state NOWHERE that you should not take other precautions as well. Just don't go and have sex with birth control on high failure rate, when you know you are at your most fertile.

So, where can I get a detector that will tell me when I'm most fertile?

 

Because I can literally have heavy periods a week apart, or light bleeding/spotting for a few months, to absolutely nothing for three months, then one day wake up in a pool of blood.

 

I track my periods in case I need to know for medical reasons, but I've always been completely irregular. I might get a few months where it seems roughly monthly, but that's actually the exception rather than the rule.

Edited January 6, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Fuzzbucket]

Proper sex-ed would be comprehensive.

• Full explanation of multiple types of birth control
• Explanations of the way sex works.
• Comprehensive STD/STI education.
• Emphasis on the fact that sex has multiple benefits, and is used for more than just procreation. That it can be recreational when engaged in safely.
• Emphasis on consent
• Comprehensive information about pregnancy.
• Comprehensive information about alternatives to parenting such as adoption.
• Comprehensive information on the costs--to time, energy and money--of raising a child.
• Comprehensive information about abortion. Including risks and the odds of those occurring.
• Stress that it take two to make a kid.
• Comprehensive information on puberty

You have forgotten one thing that makes a LOT of difference, going by Scandinavian and Dutch research and sex-ed:

 

Relationship education. What makes a good relationship; give and take, commitment, sharing, mutual respect and responsibility, gender equality etc.

 

When you know how to see others as equals, and to discuss things, it takes a lot of the other stuff away. Discuss sex before bed; one person expresses concern about pregnancy - other person listens; sex does not take place.

 

Oh - and also parenting education - from about the age of 10 you can start this. What is involved in looking after a child; how to change a nappy, bath it, feeding etc. That knowledge is even sadly lacking in many ADULTS, and starting way early gives the kids the chance to be REALLY good baby-sitters in their teens, too. Those baby dolls they use (the ones that are programmed to scream all night and the rest - and that record how well they were looked after, so the kid cannot put it in the garage and wear earplugs all night - the doll will TELL !) are EXCELLENT for this. REALLY make the kids think.

 

http://www.realityworks.com/products/realcare-baby

 

 

 

 

[whitebaron]

Kagesoras idea would fill an academic curriculum gor 3 years.

 

That aside, many of those informatiins you'd want to guve out are highly dependent on the child you get.

 

 

About the benefits of sex: pretty much any effect can be duplicated in a much more intense effect if you do something else so thats a nonsensical thing to teach about...

[Shienvien]

Those baby dolls they use (the ones that are programmed to scream all night and the rest - and that record how well they were looked after, so the kid cannot put it in the garage and wear earplugs all night - the doll will TELL !) are EXCELLENT for this.

I will not support anything that will have a serious impact on students' performance in other subjects. And the lives of their parents and siblings, too, since the doll would bother their sleep, too. Just find me one parent currently with a baby who'd be OK with a screeching doll being brought in by her/his older child.

[brairtrainer]

I will not support anything that will have a serious impact on students' performance in other subjects. And the lives of their parents and siblings, too, since the doll would bother their sleep, too. Just find me one parent currently with a baby who'd be OK with a screeching doll being brought in by her/his older child.

Have to agree with this, as this was one of the reasons I did not take the parenting class when it was offered at my highschool (used to be covered and requried but was removed from the curriculum for several reasons).

 

My house is echoy, even though I wasn't sharing a room the doll would have woken up both of my sisters and probably my parents as well.

 

Though I'd like to find a way it could be reintroduced without harming anyones sleep schedule or at least a note (my school had a list emailed to teachers on who was taking the class when the babies were passed around, so in the case of a malfunction or requirement for the person to be at a school related activity adjustments could be made).

 

Perhaps some sort of computer simulator? I know dealing with babies in the sims (though I know it is not a very accurate portraial) at least made me wary of having a kid too soon. Have to work at 8 after spending time up late at night with the baby? Nope Nope Nope.

[Fuzzbucket]

Kagesoras idea would fill an academic curriculum gor 3 years.

 

That aside, many of those informatiins you'd want to guve out are highly dependent on the child you get.

 

 

About the benefits of sex: pretty much any effect can be duplicated in a much more intense effect if you do something else so thats a nonsensical thing to teach about...

Cobblers. (sorry ) But it fits fine into Health/PSE lessons, I assure you.

 

That is what students in the Netherlands and Scandinavia get ROUTINELY - as well as in a number of Canadian schools (including the one my girls went to) and a very few UK schools. And it is a routine part of education. ALL children get (and SHOULD GET) it. starting in kindy. What kind of child is not OK with it ? Only one whose parents tell it that it shouldn't know this stuff. It is no different from anything else taught in school. What is described is the teaching of FACTS. A baby results form sex. This is how sex works. Babies grow inside a woman. etc.

 

A child told this stuff as fact takes it as fact and goes on to something else. But at least that child now has the facts. When some idiot tells them, later that they will get AIDS if they have sex before marriage, they will know that isn't true. They will also know it isn't true that you cannot get pregnant when on your period, or when standing up; that Saran Wrap is NOT a suitable substitute for a condom (both things that some opportunistic boys try and tell girls !) and the rest.

 

They NEED the information BEFORE the misinformation kicks in. Misinformation is far harder to dislodge.

 

I will not support anything that will have a serious impact on students' performance in other subjects. And the lives of their parents and siblings, too, since the doll would bother their sleep, too. Just find me one parent currently with a baby who'd be OK with a screeching doll being brought in by her/his older child.

 

How do you think homes with actual babies cope ? Look after it properly - no problem.

Edited January 6, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Shienvien]

How do you think homes with actual babies cope ? Look after it properly - no problem.

Having a baby in the house is something that will inevitably impact all family members. Giving out these dolls will also inevitably impact all family members. And that impact can be a hell for the family - especially for a family who has real baby in it. Suddenly, they'd get to enjoy having twins!

 

Doll "wakes up" during the night? BOOM! The actual, living baby brother also wakes up and starts screaming. The poor mother/father who finally got to fell asleep now has to wake up, too, and take care of the baby (which the child with the doll can't do, since the child has to take care of the doll meanwhile). The sibling that has important exam the next day wakes up, and due to exam-anxiety won't get to fall back asleep that night at all. The other parent, who often gets calls during the night from work, and had gotten one the previous night, is now awake. The doll waking up once is more than enough to wake the entire family up, for practically no reason whatsoever.

 

 

(FYI - I had a baby brother, a decade younger than me (he is an adult now). Took care of him often enough; my mother routinely has/had literally crippling migraines.)

Edited January 6, 2014 by Shienvien

[brairtrainer]

I also have a sibling who is a decade younger than me, my sister and I were made to take naps after school during the first few months while we tried to keep our grades up (my mom however had extended maternety leave due to some complications and was able to keep the baby asleep most nights).

 

It can work but having that many students with them can be a problem, espcially as the dolls age. One of my best friends remembers his sister having to take care of one that would not stop screaming, and it took her driving it to the teachers house for them to discover the doll was malfunctioning.

[Kestra15]

I would have great fun with those dolls; I'd dose it up with sedatives and see what my teacher says afterwards Or hack it and program it as a baby dog or something

[CatCreature]

IN the Netherlands and Scandinavia there is proper sex education, including contraception, taught from the day children start school I'm willing to bet any child from that country could give you chapter and verse. they are also taught relationship education, personal responsibility and the like.

This is what I remember from my ancient time in school (ignoring the fact that our school books were even more antique...)

 

Swedish sex ed is called 'sex and relationship education'.

We got taught about puberty and what happens inside your body and why. Both male and female.

Menstruation cycle.

Male and female genitalia.

How to get pregnant, penis go into vagina, sperm goes here, egg goes there and this is what happens when they meet. Big emphasis about 'it only takes ONE sperm to make someone pregnant, so yes you could end up with a pregnancy the first time, during your period, in the bath and so on. Sperms can live for several days inside the woman so having sex when she's NOT ovulating might fail too.

Pictures of embryo, fetus and new born. (Still remember the photo of the baby with only it's head out. )

STD's and the emphasis of using condoms.

Other contraceptives.

Heterosexuality is when you fall in love with the opposite sex/gender, homosexuality is when you fall in love with the same sex/gender.

Don't have sex until you're ready.

 

And last but not least. Sweden has Youth Clinics that are free of charge for kids. (Age differs between regions but it's usually up to 20+)

The teachers told us several times the adress of the clinic in our town and that we can go there to get help with all kinds of things regarding sexuality. Questions, symptoms, condoms, birth control or STD testing.

Edited January 6, 2014 by CatCreature

[AngesRadieux]

Just dropping my two cents in. I think every woman should have a choice, and no one should be able to say otherwise. Ultimately, it is her body and hers alone. Pregnancy can take a huge toll on the body and if a woman doesn't want to go through that, then no one should be able to force her. End of story. Especially because you just don't know what her reasons are. Maybe the thought of pregnancy terrifies her and she just can't cope. Or, maybe her family seems to have a tendency towards difficult pregnancies/premature births/whatever, and she doesn't feel like she can carry a pregnancy to term safely. Or really any other number of reasons. One isn't more or less valid than another.

 

I don't think this is a decision people take lightly, and if a woman sat down, thought about it, and ended up deciding that abortion is the right choice, then fine. She should be able to take that step to ensure her own well-being, be it physical, mental, and/or financial, and she should be able to do it without justifying herself to judgmental people who will insist on calling her a murderer. Her rights to make a decision about her own health should trump the rights of something that isn't even self-aware or capable of surviving on its own.

 

Personally, I don't know what I'd do if I became pregnant. The idea of pregnancy scares me. I like kids, but the process of pregnancy and childbirth is something that makes me really uneasy. Especially so because my sister and I, and both of our little cousins, were premature. My sister, my younger little cousin, and I were all very premature. Though my grandma says she carried her pregnancies to term, that still seems like there's a possibility of genetics being at play. My aunt also had difficult pregnancies and took a long time to recover from the births. What if I'm genetically predisposed to that? I just don't know.

 

I'm not saying I would definitely abort if I was financially stable enough to handle a child. But, if after careful consideration it ended up being the right option, I should have the right to make that choice.

[Fuzzbucket]

Having a baby in the house is something that will inevitably impact all family members. Giving out these dolls will also inevitably impact all family members. And that impact can be a hell for the family - especially for a family who has real baby in it. Suddenly, they'd get to enjoy having twins!

 

Doll "wakes up" during the night? BOOM! The actual, living baby brother also wakes up and starts screaming. The poor mother/father who finally got to fell asleep now has to wake up, too, and take care of the baby (which the child with the doll can't do, since the child has to take care of the doll meanwhile). The sibling that has important exam the next day wakes up, and due to exam-anxiety won't get to fall back asleep that night at all. The other parent, who often gets calls during the night from work, and had gotten one the previous night, is now awake. The doll waking up once is more than enough to wake the entire family up, for practically no reason whatsoever.

crippling migraines.)

ACTUALLY - if there is a real baby in the house you won't need the doll anyway. The evidence of what a baby does to life will be right there for REAL !

 

@ CatCreature - exactly ! EXCELLENT stuff ! ALL children need that.

Edited January 6, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Cecona]

I believe my high school still gives out the baby dolls that cry. I remember a friend of mine was in that class and let me hold it- it weighs as much as a real baby so it's surprisingly heavy. I ended up slowly bending it's head back until it started to cry. OOPS

 

Good thing I know better than to do that with a real baby.

[eritated]

ACTUALLY - if there is a real baby in the house you won't need the doll anyway. The evidence of what a baby does to life will be right there for REAL !

I agree, but I also think they should be able to opt out of it, with parental permission of course. I know I wouldn't be able to handle it, as I'm already dealing with tremendous stress from being sick every day and school.

[Fuzzbucket]

I agree, but I also think they should be able to opt out of it, with parental permission of course. I know I wouldn't be able to handle it, as I'm already dealing with tremendous stress from being sick every day and school.

Tricky, that. There are so many parents who don't want their children taught anything about sex, and would rather they were scared half to death to make them afraid to hold hands with anyone until after they are married than told how it all works. So giving them any choice gives them the chance to have their children grow up ignorant and at risk.

 

I can remember - when a group of parents was called together to discuss a new sex-ed programme for elementary school - a mother who (talking of 12 y/o kids) just wanted them told "not to do it". We all pressed her to say what "it" was - because - well, really, how can you tell a child not to do "it", and expect them to know what "it" is not OK... She eventually said "well, intercourse, of course." How will that help a child know what isn't wise ? (and look in the dictionary too - that includes conversation....)

 

Not to mention the people who said have them watch frogs and tadpoles. Um....

Edited January 6, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[HeatherMarie]

This is what I remember from my ancient time in school (ignoring the fact that our school books were even more antique...)

 

Swedish sex ed is called 'sex and relationship education'.

We got taught about puberty and what happens inside your body and why. Both male and female.

Menstruation cycle.

Male and female genitalia.

How to get pregnant, penis go into vagina, sperm goes here, egg goes there and this is what happens when they meet. Big emphasis about 'it only takes ONE sperm to make someone pregnant, so yes you could end up with a pregnancy the first time, during your period, in the bath and so on. Sperms can live for several days inside the woman so having sex when she's NOT ovulating might fail too.

Pictures of embryo, fetus and new born. (Still remember the photo of the baby with only it's head out. )

STD's and the emphasis of using condoms.

Other contraceptives.

Heterosexuality is when you fall in love with the opposite sex/gender, homosexuality is when you fall in love with the same sex/gender.

Don't have sex until you're ready.

 

And last but not least. Sweden has Youth Clinics that are free of charge for kids. (Age differs between regions but it's usually up to 20+)

The teachers told us several times the adress of the clinic in our town and that we can go there to get help with all kinds of things regarding sexuality. Questions, symptoms, condoms, birth control or STD testing.

Okay, that's it. Sweden needs to sit down with the United States and have a loooooong conversation about what "sex ed" should really be. (Goodness I envy you guys)

 

And yeah, being able to "opt out" or needing a permission slip for sex ed is seriously a slippery slope. If adults don't want their children taught about sex at school, there's a *very* large possibility they don't want them taught about it at all. Ignore it, and it'll never happen. Never give them information, so they won't do it. Or the other extreme, "teaching" them that anything from holding hands to a light peck on the lips can give you a life-threatening disease. I love my parents dearly, but in general I would *not* put it all on the parents to teach their kids this specific subject.

[eritated]

Okay, that's it. Sweden needs to sit down with the United States and have a loooooong conversation about what "sex ed" should really be. (Goodness I envy you guys)

 

And yeah, being able to "opt out" or needing a permission slip for sex ed is seriously a slippery slope. If adults don't want their children taught about sex at school, there's a *very* large possibility they don't want them taught about it at all. Ignore it, and it'll never happen. Never give them information, so they won't do it. Or the other extreme, "teaching" them that anything from holding hands to a light peck on the lips can give you a life-threatening disease. I love my parents dearly, but in general I would *not* put it all on the parents to teach their kids this specific subject.

Agreed 500%

 

Oh no I only meant being able to opt out of the "teaching kids about taking care of a child by using a doll" thing. Not being able to opt out of sex-ed. That'd be silly D: