Suggestions for Sweets

[noxlyx]

3 hours ago, Brekke said:

This thread was full of good, meaty discussion yesterday.  TJ was here last night, he posted in a couple of other threads.  But he couldn't take 5 minutes to post--"interesting ideas--this and that might work, that one won't" or whatever.  Folks talk about threads going off the rails around here--but the fact is, they go off the rails because they get to a good point for TJ or a mod to say something...crickets chirp...and people start repeating arguments, etc.  It's not my imagination, is it?  TJ posted in a couple threads, but not this one despite a number of excellent posts.  Just a "can't make a decision now, but here's what I think about your comments so far" post would do.  If there's one guy at the top with all the power, and he won't talk to us, what hope is there for a good solution?

 

Actually, TJ did come in and respond in this thread yesterday - Page 13 to be exact. 

 

He gave an explanation for why he's choosing the current path he chose for Alt Sweetlings, and while it's not a response most of the community wants him to take, he did chime in. It's not that he didn't make a decision, it's more that he did, we didn't like it, and we're hoping to still change his mind on it. At this point, the circular talk is the community wishing and hoping that maybe we can find a way to convince TJ not to phase Alt Sweets out entirely.

 

However, since his prime reasoning for phasing them out was because of the Alt Sweet's original intent to be extremely niche and not meant to be as widespread into lineages as they are today, I don't think we are going to be able to convince him otherwise. Speculation says that it might be him honoring the original spriter's intent. Others think it might just be him honoring the fact that they were meant to be an apology gift that went very very wrong.

 

Either way, if it's spriter's intent then we're going to need to wait for the original spriter to weigh in - and that seems like a dead end from what this thread is saying. If it's TJ wanting to honor the fact that these babies are supposed to be a niche apology gift... what can we as a community say that will change his mind on that?

 

My two cents is that it would've been nice for TJ to embrace the mistake rather than fight it. The Alt Sweets have been released into the wild, they were allowed to breed more Alt Sweets, and for a long time people were just fine with things being the way they were. Alt. Sweets were rare but their offspring never dominated the trading market, and most owners gave their babies away for free. However, trying to phase them out and discontinue them entirely is... well... why? Again, if it's honoring and respecting the original spriter's intent, I'm all for it. But it's to honor the fact that they were an apology gift, many Alt Sweet owners don't seem to really care if other people have access to Alt Sprites.

 

Things change, years change, and this mistake has been left to fester. It's a wound, a scar, and to try and make that scar go away as it never happened isn't going to happen. So why not just embrace the mistake and work with it instead? Is there a fear for a snowball effect where if this one thing goes through then the community is going to demand more? 

 

To be fair though, allowing everyone to have Alt. Sweet sprites might take a ton of work, but people here have made some great suggestions on how to go about it. However, at the end of the day, it's TJ's call.

 

Will he change his mind in the future? Well, no one here is a fortune teller, but if the Alt Sweets aren't going to make a comeback next year, I'm more than willing to bet they won't come back at all because I don't see why TJ would want to poke at this wound again after all the drama it caused this year.

Edited February 15, 2018 by noxlyx

[Brekke]

1 minute ago, noxlyx said:

 

Actually, TJ did come in and respond in this thread yesterday - Page 13 to be exact. 

 

 

At 4:39 am.  All the posts I was talking about were all day long after that.  He was around again last night, he could have responded to a day's worth of posts (it actually was just a 2-3 pages, not much), but choose not to.

[JavaTigress]

14 minutes ago, Brekke said:

At 4:39 am.  All the posts I was talking about were all day long after that.  He was around again last night, he could have responded to a day's worth of posts (it actually was just a 2-3 pages, not much), but choose not to.

AND I think that is where the frustration comes in. AS I said before.... quite a LOT of us would like to know WHY they need to be phased out at all?

 

After eight years it just seems unnecessary.

 

The changes he has made MIGHT well be a successful way to phase them out.

 

THAT being said, retiring them was obviously unpopular from the get go. Enough SO that he had to backpedal on his original intent.

 

That should have been a cue as to user opinion.

 

The changes he then made.... well those have simultaneously make the vast majority of pink owners unhappy due to the perceived unfairness in allowing the alt owners to  have both colors on their scroll while the majority have only pinks, and ALSO annoying many of the alt owners as well, because the changes he made have negatively impacted their ability to use their pretties in lineages. ( AGAIN....not accusing alt owners of anything, they ARE negatively impacted also.... just pointing out why so many are so unhappy with these changes). I am SORRY but IF a decision needs to be made that is THAT unpopular....you really should have a better reason ready than "That is how I want it."

 

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Brekke]

7 minutes ago, noxlyx said:

 

I don't see why TJ would want to poke at this wound again after all the drama it caused this year.

Look--it's TJ that caused all the drama by not telling us anything.  And then:  two nights ago--"I'm not posting about Sweetlings until the Sweetling thread is open tomorrow."  Last night:  ignores all the responses to his actual post in the Sweetling thread.

 

I'm tired of "it's TJ's call" "he's busy" "give him a break."  He runs a website for a zip-load of users--all I'm asking is that he tell us what's going on.  I don't really think that's too much to ask.  TJ wants us to collect sprites, but then he goes and changes those sprites when we least expect it. 

[noxlyx]

@Brekke @JavaTigress

 

But what is there for him to say? He already did explain why he doesn't want the Alt Sweets back:

 

Quote

So when I say alts are a niche thing, I really do mean it. Aside from the fact that the special-casing involved in granting the alts should've never happened in the first place, at the time, that exclusivity is pretty much the only reason why doing any sort of "special" thing was okay. This clarifies an important piece of information: the original intent of the alts was never meant to involve broad distribution, and respecting that intent is, IMO, important.

 

His words, bolded is mine for emphasis.

 

It's not an explanation we want because it essentially boils down to one of two things: He's honoring the Spriter's intent to have them be exclusive OR he's honoring the original reason why they were limited and that is VERY important to him. 

 

As I said in my previous post, he gave an explanation for his decision. It's a firm "no, he doesn't want them back and wants them discontinued, but he's leaving the thread open so people can voice their opinions on his very unpopular opinion."

 

He can't agree with our alternative ideas for Sweets because he doesn't agree about bringing them back, and he can only say "no" so many times before we start getting angry at him for stonewalling us.

 

He already said that he heard us, here's an explanation for his decision... now his hands are relatively tied. All we can do now, is keep reiterating the fact that this is a hot topic we would like for him to change his mind on. Until then, unless his stance changes, I don't see what else he can say.

 

Am I agreeing with him that this is a good idea? No. It's not. But from his perspective, he did explain his side of things, we just don't agree with it because, again, unless it's because he's honoring the artist's intention, it's not a very solid argument.

 

As for saying him not wanting to poke at the wounds again if the Alt Sweets don't come around next year, I just pointing out that if they're not out next year, there's high likelihood they won't come out at all because by then not having them at all a new normal for us, and this whole thing gets swept under the rug. Is it ideal? No. But I'm pointing out why I have a feeling we're never seeing these babies again because it's easy to just forget about the crusade for them to be widespread unless TJ does something to bring that crusade back to the forefront.

 

I'm hoping we can keep this conversation going for longer than a few months, but with new things coming out, it's very likely this conversation will get buried and eventually "Ooooh, right... well, I guess this is the new normal."

 

[Brekke]

Just now, noxlyx said:

@Brekke @JavaTigress

 

But what is there for him to say? He already did explain why he doesn't want the Alt Sweets back:

 

 

What he can do is reply to our posts!

[JavaTigress]

5 minutes ago, noxlyx said:

@Brekke @JavaTigress

 

But what is there for him to say? He already did explain why he doesn't want the Alt Sweets back:

 

 

His words, bolded is mine for emphasis.

 

It's not an explanation we want because it essentially boils down to one of two things: He's honoring the Spriter's intent to have them be exclusive OR he's honoring the original reason why they were limited and that is VERY important to him. 

 

As I said in my previous post, he gave an explanation for his decision. It's a firm "no, he doesn't want them back and wants them discontinued, but he's leaving the thread open so people can voice their opinions on his very unpopular opinion."

 

He can't agree with our alternative ideas for Sweets because he doesn't agree about bringing them back, and he can only say "no" so many times before we start getting angry at him for stonewalling us.

 

He already said that he heard us, here's an explanation for his decision... now his hands are relatively tied. All we can do now, is keep reiterating the fact that this is a hot topic we would like for him to change his mind on. Until then, unless his stance changes, I don't see what else he can say.

 

Am I agreeing with him that this is a good idea? No. It's not. But from his perspective, he did explain his side of things, we just don't agree with it because, again, unless it's because he's honoring the artist's intention, it's not a very solid argument.

 

As for saying him not wanting to poke at the wounds again if the Alt Sweets don't come around next year, I just pointing out that if they're not out next year, there's high likelihood they won't come out at all because by then not having them at all a new normal for us, and this whole thing gets swept under the rug. Is it ideal? No. But I'm pointing out why I have a feeling we're never seeing these babies again because it's easy to just forget about the crusade for them to be widespread unless TJ does something to bring that crusade back to the forefront.

 

I'm hoping we can keep this conversation going for longer than a few months, but with new things coming out, it's very likely this conversation will get buried and eventually "Ooooh, right... well, I guess this is the new normal."

 

AND IF the spriters wishes dictate that he can't release them more widely that is what it is.

 

It still doesn't' explain why they need to be RETIRED/PHASED OUT.

 

Big difference there.... on top of which leaving them as they were would have saved a BOATLOAD of drama.

 

Leaving them on specific scrolls would, IMHO have honored the intent well enough.

 

How TJ handled it STILL seems to me to have basically broke a hornets nest that need NOT have been disturbed.

Edited February 15, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Alrexwolf]

1 minute ago, Brekke said:

Look--it's TJ that caused all the drama by not telling us anything.  And then:  two nights ago--"I'm not posting about Sweetlings until the Sweetling thread is open tomorrow."  Last night:  ignores all the responses to his actual post in the Sweetling thread.

 

I'm tired of "it's TJ's call" "he's busy" "give him a break."  He runs a website for a zip-load of users--all I'm asking is that he tell us what's going on.  I don't really think that's too much to ask.  TJ wants us to collect sprites, but then he goes and changes those sprites when we least expect it. 

 

I'd also like to point out that it's especially devastating on a website like this because... sprites are all there is TO Dragcave, outside of the rare holiday event that you can't even access again. Most pet sites have things to do, stuff to fall back on, community to interact with, games to play, things other than just collecting sprites/pets/whatever.

 

A site like this has to make its sprites more available. It's all it has. Limiting that availability is a death sentence - what else does DC have besides collecting sprites? WHY kill part of the ONLY thing your website offers to its users. It seemed like TJ understood that, by letting holidays be re-released and letting us have prizes again... but I guess that's still lost.

 

Someone on this forum, idk what thread, brought up the issue of a similar website - but the website tried to adapt, tried to make its users happy and implement things that would draw new people in. I'm not saying "appeal to everyone ever dont upset anyone uwu get as many ppl as possible thats all that matters." I AM saying that, in an era when games like DC are becoming less and less appealing than even games in its same category (Flight Rising and Magistream [I believe that's what it's called?], anyone?) Magistream has even "taken," some of DC's dedicated artists, taken in the sense that they're also active there, not that they were like stolen by it or anything.

 

The Sweetling matter pokes the wound because TJ seems to misunderstand the only reason people play this game in the first place. And that's a super big problem. If he won't listen to anything in this thread, or any thread, what's the point? These are his dedicated users that have thought out practically any possibility for every suggestion. We (the userbase) have done the work FOR him on EVERY feature that's been suggested, from alt sweets to trader's canyon to every dragon request. We have come to a consensus to most issues in his absence in a way that makes the most amount of people happy, or at least the least amount of people unhappy. We've debated every part of everything because that's all we CAN do. All he has to do is LISTEN... and that's the problem.

[Brekke]

OK, I'll walk away for a bit.  Just know this--what winds some of us up is this:  "he's already explained"  "it's his call" "he's so kind to let us play at all"

It's like you're comforting a child throwing a tantrum.

Can you just stick to the ideas and leave out the justifications for TJ's behavior?  Let him defend is own behavior.

[noxlyx]

4 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

It still doesn't' explain why they needed to be RETIRED.

 

 

Because they were "never meant for broad distribution" - I'm assuming it means that he never wanted them to be bred and have Alt Sweet lineages in the first place.

 

Again, if you actually read my posts, I'm agreeing that this is not a good explanation. However, what I am defending is the fact that he did give an explanation. It's not a good explanation, it's not a popular explanation but it is an explanation.

[Fuzzbucket]

They would have stayed niche if he had  just left things as they were. So why not revert to the situation we had, and which everyone was used to. The repetitive threads asking for a change were no more disruptive than the annual "I want all three snow angels" threads..

 

That fits his comment

 

Quote

So when I say alts are a niche thing, I really do mean it. Aside from the fact that the special-casing involved in granting the alts should've never happened in the first place, at the time, that exclusivity is pretty much the only reason why doing any sort of "special" thing was okay. This clarifies an important piece of information: the original intent of the alts was never meant to involve broad distribution, and respecting that intent is, IMO, important.

[noxlyx]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

They would have stayed niche if he had  just left things as they were. So why not revert to the situation we had, and which everyone was used to. The repetitive threads asking for a change were no more disruptive than the annual "I want all three snow angels" threads..

 

 

Because I think he's trying to go back to the way things "should've been" ...five years or so too late... and hoping that this will be the new normal we're used too and the subject explodes only once (this year) and never again.

 

Like I said, he gave an explanation, it's not a good explanation... but it's an explanation.

[Brekke]

That isn't the point, though.  Giving a one-post explanation and leaving at that is frustrating the heck out of his user base.  Why can't he respond to our ideas and concerns?

[purplehaze]

7 minutes ago, noxlyx said:

...five years or so too late...

I think this is the crux of the matter.

[noxlyx]

9 minutes ago, Brekke said:

That isn't the point, though.  Giving a one-post explanation and leaving at that is frustrating the heck out of his user base.  Why can't he respond to our ideas and concerns?

 

Because his opinions on this subject hasn't changed.

 

I would've liked for him to say "I'll consider bringing back Alt. Sweets and will take everything you say into consideration while I think it over." But, my interpretation of his post is that he gave us a hard  "no these are never coming back and the reason why is because "IMO the original intent of these At. Sweetlings is very important."" Bad quoting is mine.

 

Which is what frustrates me, because how do you argue against a hard no that is, to me, very opinion based aside from continued frustration, throwing out ideas, and praying one day an opinion gets changed?

Edited February 15, 2018 by noxlyx

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The original intent of something done haphazardly, eight years ago, regarding a sprite who's maker has left the game, seems a poor reason to keep withholding something a lot of the userbase would have jolly good fun with. 

 

 

[Brekke]

Just now, angelicdragonpuppy said:

The original intent of something done haphazardly, eight years ago, regarding a sprite who's maker has left the game, seems a poor reason to keep withholding something a lot of the userbase would have jolly good fun with. 

 

 

And isn't jolly fun what the game should be all about it?  Huh?  Isn't it?

[Brekke]

3 minutes ago, noxlyx said:

 

Because his opinions on this subject hasn't changed.

 

I would've liked for him to say "I'll consider bringing back Alt. Sweets and will take everything you say into consideration while I think it over." But, my interpretation of his post is that he gave us a hard  "no these are never coming back and the reason why is because "IMO the original intent of these At. Sweetlings is very important."" Bad quoting is mine.

 

Which is what frustrates me, because how do you argue against a hard no that is, to me, very opinion based aside from continued frustration, throwing out ideas, and praying one day an opinion gets changed?

Here's the thing.  Two night ago TJ showed up and posted in the transparency thread.  He interacted with us, he answered questions.  He refused to talk about the Sweetlings.  He said he'd post in that thread the next day.  He basically posted that I was accusing him of putting it off to another thread so that he could ignore it later.  And you know what?  That's what he did.  He posted in another thread, and then ignored it.  I won't be ignored!  Uh oh, hide your bunnies!  

[Fuzzbucket]

10 minutes ago, noxlyx said:

 

Because his opinions on this subject hasn't changed.

 

If that is so, why make a change to the game at all ? And why NOW - if that was his opinion all along.

[noxlyx]

12 minutes ago, Brekke said:

 I won't be ignored!  Uh oh, hide your bunnies!  

 

Then channel this energy to keep the Alt. Sweet train moving?

 

Because, again, my biggest concern is that by next year all this won't matter because it's been a full 365 days since the debacle and if TJ doesn't introduce the Alt. Sweets in by next year, he won't at all becauseif changes are going to happen, we won't see them until the next Valentines Day event. However, we did say this about Bright Pinks and Frills, and somehow they came back. 

 

@Fuzzbucket

 

Quote

 

If that is so, why make a change to the game at all ? And why NOW - if that was his opinion all along.

 

My statement was towards the fact that he's been silent ever since his last post on Page 13, not towards his opinions on Alt. Sprites. 

 

Essentially what I'm saying is "He's been silent since page 13 because after saying "No" to us, his opinion hasn't changed and to add to that, he's probably not interacting because he doesn't want to give us false hope by saying "I'll consider the changes you suggested" and he doesn't want to keep saying "No".

Edited February 15, 2018 by noxlyx

[HawktalonOfRiverClan]

After reading TJ's reply, again. I don't understand why alts just can't breed true! Hollies were rare as hell for years, but even before the addition of the holiday biomes they eventually became accessible. Sure, it will be a problem at first, but it won't be one forever. If alts breed true it's only a matter of time before they become as ubiquitous as pink Sweetlings.

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

I think this is the crux of the matter.

EXACTLY.

 

IF he couldn't give them out to any new scrolls, that is  what it is, BUT IF they were NEVER meant to breed true on the alt scrolls.... well it was far too late to fix that WITHOUT it leading to epic drama. We had a system that worked relatively fairly (ALBEIT I am sure there WERE the annual 'can alts please be more available threads'.... if he couldn't do it, why not shoot down such threads as necessary?) IF there was some minor grumbling... I am sure it is NOTHING at all compared to what he is getting now. He was the one that decided to make changes.... and as far as I can see to no purpose, because as far as I have ever heard Kila never OBJECTED to them breeding true on the scrolls that got them? ( IF I am wrong about this please correct! AND IF she did object WHY was nothing done about it at the outset, when the problem COULD have reasonably been fixed?)  TJ called down this hurricane, IMHO. IT is sort of on him to put things back. 

 

BECAUSE I don't honestly SEE the discontent over the change going ANYWHERE. NOT for some time.

 

IMO, it may be more that simply riding out the storm over this, as some suggested, because the thing has left a nasty taste in EVERYONE's mouths.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Rally Vincent]

On 14.2.2018 at 10:39 AM, TJ09 said:

So when I say alts are a niche thing, I really do mean it.

 

Having alts may be a 'niche thing', but being barred from having both variants - when the game now officially allows for this to happen - hardly is a 'niche thing'. Given your vague numbers, it affects more than 99% of all players? Is that a small problem?

Edited February 15, 2018 by Rally Vincent

[Tini]

On 2/14/2018 at 9:41 AM, Alrexwolf said:

 My (not serious) suggestion for sweets: turn them all black. They've caused so much chaos, anger, and frustration that I feel the alts are a much better representation of the breed nowadays.

I have to admit I love this line.

 

I really hate the unfairness of letting previous alt-only owners get pinks while those of us with pinks can't get the alt. That is my issue with this whole thing.

 

I love the alt sweetling sprite but I accepted I'd never get one, the discussion around snow angels made me hopeful I might, but then for the alt owners to be able to get the pinks is a slap in the face to me.

 

As others have said, CB hollies used to be around 100, I'm sure that shot up this past winter, just because something is rare doesn't mean it always has to be.

 

If TJ is trying to preserve the original intent, he's beating a dead horse, he missed that chance years ago when alts started breeding alts. If it's spriter's wish, he should say so, ask her how she feels about it now, and then tell us that. It seems more probable that he can't get in contact with her, if that's the case than I feel it more accurate to assume she doesn't overly care about the site anymore. Maybe, he could revert them to the original behavior, and over the next year try to get in contact for her opinion, and come out next year and tell us the outcome of that. If he can't get in contact in a full year, its safe to assume she doesn't care and has been given ample chance to weigh in, so he could do whatever.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Tinibree

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Rally Vincent said:

 

Having alts may be a 'niche thing', but being barred from having both variants - when the game now officially allows for this to happen - hardly is a 'niche thing'. Given your vague numbers, it affects more than 99% of all players? Is that a small problem?

 

It doesn't  allow for 99% of players to have both. Eggs will only hatch alt on CB alt owners' scrolls; as always, they will turn pink on most. But alt owners can now have both colours. That affects only them, not the rest of us - the vast majority.