Suggestions for Sweets

[LadyLyzar]

This topic will be locked a minimum of 24 hours.

 

Users are having trouble staying on topic and now the thread has degenerated into personal attacks.

 

At this point I think everything that has needed to be said has been said.

 

Topic re-opened!  Hopefully everyone has had a chance to cool down.

Edited February 13, 2018 by LadyLyzar

[TacticianLyra]

On 2/9/2018 at 12:58 PM, raindear said:

I wouldn't mind or care if everyone had access to Alt Sweetlings. I wouldn't like it much if all Sweetlings were made pink, but I would be willing to accept it if it happened.

 

To me all the jealousy and bitterness of this issue makes no sense. When all this anger seems directed at people who didn't do anything to deserve it, it just makes this seem an unfriendly place to be.

 

I don't understand the contention that Alt owners made any kind of profit from them. I certainly haven't. I'm seldom even asked to breed them, though I have always bred for free when asked.

Exactly my thoughts.

IMO lineages with Alts are ruined the moment a pink one gets thrown in because of clashing colors.

That, or going back to 1-color-only.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@raindear there was some drama with a seperate chat room being made for Alt owners, and it kinda exploded into a faction war that doesn’t really exist. I think everyone’s calmer now. I certainly don’t begrudge Alt owners or think they’re the devil. Honestly most seem to be all for sharing the sprite, which raises them above average to awesome!  

[JavaTigress]

10 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

@raindear there was some drama with a seperate chat room being made for Alt owners, and it kinda exploded into a faction war that doesn’t really exist. I think everyone’s calmer now. I certainly don’t begrudge Alt owners or think they’re the devil. Honestly most seem to be all for sharing the sprite, which raises them above average to awesome!  

This exactly.

I don't think the issue was EVER that they weren't willing to share. AS Some have pointed out, there were even some of them that supported the release of more CBs for breeding.

 

The issue is whether TJ will allow it... 

[Dragon_Arbock]

I'll be waiting for TJ's reply he's promised to give on the 15th, but since with suggestions he seems to care more about the why;

-lineages with alts are ruined when they are picked up with pink scrolls

-more people with access to alts = more unrelated dragons to build lineages with = makes lineage building with alts easier and alt-owning lineage builders happy

-if some people get to have both, others will want both as well

-people want to collect all the sprites

-there are very few dragons on the site that share that color-scheme, so very few that substitute its role in lineages

-it doesn't fit the mold of the usual primarily pink or red valentines, and is desirable for that alone

 

(anyone can add anything else they can think of)

Edited February 13, 2018 by Dragon_Arbock

[LadyLoki]

@Dragon_Arbock I think this goes along with your second suggestion--

-As time passes alt owners may/will slowly stop playing and thus offspring from alts become less and less available

[JavaTigress]

33 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I'll be waiting for TJ's reply he's promised to give on the 15th, but since with suggestions he seems to care more about the why;

-lineages with alts are ruined when they are picked up with pink scrolls

-more people with access to alts = more unrelated dragons to build lineages with = makes lineage building with alts easier and alt-owning lineage builders happy

-if some people get to have both, others will want both as well

-people want to collect all the sprites

-there are very few dragons on the site that share that color-scheme, so very few that substitute its role in lineages

-it doesn't fit the mold of the usual primarily pink or red valentines, and is desirable for that alone

 

(anyone can add anything else they can think of)

Yes, I would say that captures ALL of the 'whys' pretty well, Arbock.

[laertid]

28 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I'll be waiting for TJ's reply he's promised to give on the 15th, but since with suggestions he seems to care more about the why;

-lineages with alts are ruined when they are picked up with pink scrolls

-more people with access to alts = more unrelated dragons to build lineages with = makes lineage building with alts easier and alt-owning lineage builders happy

-if some people get to have both, others will want both as well

-people want to collect all the sprites

-there are very few dragons on the site that share that color-scheme, so very few that substitute its role in lineages

-it doesn't fit the mold of the usual primarily pink or red valentines, and is desirable for that alone

 

(anyone can add anything else they can think of)

 

You summarized basically everything (and @Fabula added one more point). Don't know what to say to add to the case, maybe - that the Alt Sweets are supposed to represent Singles Awareness Day, which is as important for some people here as the Valentine holiday itself?

[OMGitsKairi]

1 hour ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I'll be waiting for TJ's reply he's promised to give on the 15th, but since with suggestions he seems to care more about the why;

-lineages with alts are ruined when they are picked up with pink scrolls

-more people with access to alts = more unrelated dragons to build lineages with = makes lineage building with alts easier and alt-owning lineage builders happy

-if some people get to have both, others will want both as well

-people want to collect all the sprites

-there are very few dragons on the site that share that color-scheme, so very few that substitute its role in lineages

-it doesn't fit the mold of the usual primarily pink or red valentines, and is desirable for that alone

 

(anyone can add anything else they can think of)

 

This is pretty much what I'm seeing at the moment. I, too, will be waiting to see what TJ says.

 

Edit: Especially the first point. I have so many beautiful lineages that I can't do justice. :<
Edit, Jr. - The final point as well. The alts are striking and different in a sea of pink V'Day sprites.

Edited February 13, 2018 by OMGitsKairi

[Peij]

10 hours ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I'll be waiting for TJ's reply he's promised to give on the 15th, but since with suggestions he seems to care more about the why;

-lineages with alts are ruined when they are picked up with pink scrolls

-more people with access to alts = more unrelated dragons to build lineages with = makes lineage building with alts easier and alt-owning lineage builders happy

-if some people get to have both, others will want both as well

-people want to collect all the sprites

-there are very few dragons on the site that share that color-scheme, so very few that substitute its role in lineages

-it doesn't fit the mold of the usual primarily pink or red valentines, and is desirable for that alone

 

(anyone can add anything else they can think of)

 

9 hours ago, OMGitsKairi said:

 

This is pretty much what I'm seeing at the moment. I, too, will be waiting to see what TJ says.

 

Edit: Especially the first point. I have so many beautiful lineages that I can't do justice. :<
Edit, Jr. - The final point as well. The alts are striking and different in a sea of pink V'Day sprites.

 

I completely agree with the that.

 I didn’t collect sweetlings from alts because I couldn’t do them justice 

so those are the two reasons why I support this 

[TJ09]

Okay, as promised. I've lost my typed progress several times, so hopefully I don't drop any details in this iteration... Most of this should be things I've said elsewhere anyways, just with more context provided.

 

To start out with some background info: Alt sweetlings are rare. Really rare. There were way more 2018 Valentine's eggs given out in the first five minutes of tonight than there are CB alts (the first few hours of drops have already dwarfed the total number of alt Sweetlings, bred or CB). Given their origins (only the first few people who grabbed eggs way back when were affected; not even a full drop), this should be pretty unsurprising.

 

So when I say alts are a niche thing, I really do mean it. Aside from the fact that the special-casing involved in granting the alts should've never happened in the first place, at the time, that exclusivity is pretty much the only reason why doing any sort of "special" thing was okay. This clarifies an important piece of information: the original intent of the alts was never meant to involve broad distribution, and respecting that intent is, IMO, important.

 

On top of that, retroactively tacking new mechanics onto a single eight-year-old dragon out of a decade worth of event dragons increases the overall cognitive load. Some of the same could be said for several of the Holiday dragons, but those don't actually directly affect hunting (there's no "you can collect two of every Snow Angel," etc). Things should be moving away from that, not towards it.

 

So, no: even after reading through this discussion, I do firmly believe that alt Sweetlings should not be given a wider CB (re-)release.

 

Outside of that, I have already addressed the topic of a non-CB release (e.g. in the form of alts breeding more alts). With such a limited base of CB dragons, availability of low-generation eggs would be super limited. Definitely way worse than prizes before regular raffles became a thing (there's fewer alt Sweetlings, *and* they only breed true once a year—multi-clutching helps a bit, but not enough).

 

That addresses one direction. It still leaves two others: narrower distribution or no change. Here, a lot of the points in Tiki's post are legit:

 

 

They're so rare to begin with, and not going to stop being rare. All of the changes to make holidays more accessible have also done weird things for alt Sweetlings—I've talked about how they should've behaved like spriter's alts before, and similarly it feels particularly wrong to allow people to get new CB alts when the point of the CB alts is based on something that happened from all the way in 2010. On top of this, some of these people are stuck with alts when they'd rather have had normal dragons.

 

From this, moving towards retirement is indeed the goal. I initially chose a path that moved straight to the finish line with no notice (obviously a mistake). Since then, it's moved to something that will, over time, move closer to the goal while breaking substantially fewer lineages.

 

I guess at this point I'll leave it there and open the floodgates for the inevitable disagreement and/or requests for clarification.

[stagazer_7]

Thank you for the reply! So, if I get this straight it will be like the upside down Mint situation - some people get special sprites on their scroll, but they only produce regular offspring? Or will alt Sweetlings become unbreedables?

Edited February 14, 2018 by stagazer_7

[Ruby Eyes]

Holiday-version of upside-down Mints, I suppose.

Basically, the alt Sweetlings will behave like real Spriter's alts, eventually ...

Edited February 14, 2018 by Ruby Eyes

[laertid]

Then retire them altogether and let them stay as "spriter's alts" only =.= with no true breeding at all. What's the point of this slow retirement anyway?

[Millennium07]

15 minutes ago, laertid said:

Then retire them altogether and let them stay as "spriter's alts" only =.= with no true breeding at all. What's the point of this slow retirement anyway?

 

Because he tried fast retirement and got mobbed.

[Fuzzbucket]

Thank you for answering, TJ.

 

What is not OK for so many of us is that some people - that niche group of players - will be able to have both colours CB. (I don't actually care, but many do.)

Edited February 14, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[laertid]

15 minutes ago, Millennium07 said:

 

Because he tried fast retirement and got mobbed.

 

I kinda missed that moment, it seems. But the current situation (certain group of players has access to both colours AND is able to breed both colours) doesn't seem fair to me either, honestly, unless I'm missing something. We don't have this problem with Snow Angels.

Edited February 14, 2018 by laertid

[Guillotine]

It seems unfair because it's not fair.
 

[stagazer_7]

1 hour ago, laertid said:

But the current situation (certain group of players has access to both colours AND is able to breed both colours) doesn't seem fair to me either, honestly, unless I'm missing something. We don't have this problem with Snow Angels.

While I personally am not bothered by the decision of alt Sweetling owners being able to gets the regular ones too (I own pink Sweetlings and nothing's really changed for me), it will probably be an object of discussion, maybe even resentment, from now on because a small group of players that were given a unique rare sprite because of a glitch way back are now being further 'rewarded' by being given a CB regular one too (I still don't understand if the limits were raised to 4 CB Sweetlings now so they can collect the extra sprites). Again, I don't mind that alt Sweetling owners can have both sprites now (more people that can create pretty lineages is always a win!) and am not trying to attack anyone, but I can see why so many people are upset.

 

BTW, I don't agree to the chosen solution to this issue (as it causes damage to all players - if I understand correctly and alt Sweetlings won't produce alt offspring anymore then their owners won't be able to continue their lineages (that they've been working on for years...) and no new players will be able to get them either) as there were better ways of leveling the playing ground between the two groups of players that would make pretty much everyone happy suggested in this thread. I'm sorry, I wish I could be more positive and accepting... I kind of see that TJ's intent for alt Sweetlings is to be some sort of niche exclusive thing and in that light it succeeds, but the cost for it is pretty high IMO, especially since the breeding mechanic is being changed after all these years, after people have invested so much care and effort into creating whatever they could with resources being given to them.

Edited February 14, 2018 by stagazer_7

[Ruby Eyes]

1 hour ago, stagazer_7 said:

the breeding mechanic is being changed after all these years, after people have invested so much care and effort into creating whatever they could with resources being given to them

Yeah, mostly that, for me. Retro-actively imposing that old intent that didn't work out back then ... definitely breaks more than it fixes.

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Yeah, mostly that, for me. Retro-actively imposing that old intent that didn't work out back then ... definitely breaks more than it fixes.

THIS, I think.

 

Like.... IF it had been fixed back when it was realized,"OOPS, these are breeding true and they shouldn't be." THAT would have been better IF that was absolutely the intent.

 

There are lineages out there with them,now.... that complicates matters.

AS it stands now, trying to impose that is just going to lead to unhappy users. ( BOTH alt owners and those that are not)

 

ANYWAY... IF Indeed they were never meant to be a widespread thing, and if indeed retiring them is the ultimate intent, and IF INDEED the really a are that rare and as some of the alt owners have mentioned to me there are fewer of them around than even initially do to things) , cruel as it is to say, won't leaving them alone, in time, have the same result? Won't people eventually stop using them due to NOT having enough breeding material? WHILE I at least now understand the reasoning behind giving the alt owners pinks as well... @TJ09 , you have to understand how it looks to the rest of us that have often WISHED we could have alts, also. Bear in mind that I think even spriters ONLY get their alts ( IF someone that owns such would correct me if I am wrong on that point?) At the very least I believe their CBS can only be alt?

Edited February 14, 2018 by JavaTigress

[deleted]

Okay, I don't quite understand what happened, but I will ask this: Can now everyone get bred alt Sweetlings? Or? What's the change?

[Ruby Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Shuuichi said:

Okay, I don't quite understand what happened, but I will ask this: Can now everyone get bred alt Sweetlings? Or? What's the change?

Nö. Right now, only alt owners can get bred alts, provided the egg's father is also alt. Even alt owners currently cannot get bred alts from pink Sweetlings anymore.

[deleted]

1 minute ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Nö. Right now, only alt owners can get bred alts, provided the egg's father is also alt. Even alt owners currently cannot get bred alts from pink Sweetlings anymore.

 

Okay, thanks for the answer!

[purplehaze]

TJ, nothing you have said has brought me a bit closer to understanding why it was necessary to take any action at all after all these years. If they were intended originally to behave like spriter's alts, then the time to fix them would have been as soon as you realized that they were breeding true. Since you didn't, you should have just left well enough alone and let them dwindle to nothing on their own. What you have done is a slap to both the alt owners and non-owners.

 

And now I need to step away again because, . . . well, just because.