Suggestions for Sweets

[Brekke]

4 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

TJ, nothing you have said has brought me a bit closer to understanding why it was necessary to take any action at all after all these years. If they were intended originally to behave like spriter's alts, then the time to fix them would have been as soon as you realized that they were breeding true. Since you didn't, you should have just left well enough alone and let them dwindle to nothing on their own. What you have done is a slap to both the alt owners and non-owners.

 

And now I need to step away again because, . . . well, just because.

Best comment, clearest statement of the whole thing in a nutshell so far.

[JavaTigress]

12 minutes ago, Brekke said:

Best comment, clearest statement of the whole thing in a nutshell so far.

Agreed. I think purplehaze summed up how a LOT of us feel about this.

[KrazyKarp]

If it were up to me, I'd just say turn all the black Sweets into pink and be done with it. Obviously, that isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I highly doubt that would ever happen. However, I seriously think that the logic of the situation takes priority over the emotions of the situation: "Black Sweets were a mistake and need to be fixed" (logic) vs. "I love my black Sweets, don't take them away." (emotion)

 

I suppose for now we just wait until black Sweets become so rare that we just "forget" about their existence. That's the closest we'll get to being rid of them.

 

Edit: I'm basing this post off of TJ's post. The best solution is still releasing them to everyone, but because TJ is so set on them being unnecessarily rare, making them all pink is the next best option.

Edited February 14, 2018 by KrazyKarp

[GhostMouse]

24 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

TJ, nothing you have said has brought me a bit closer to understanding why it was necessary to take any action at all after all these years. If they were intended originally to behave like spriter's alts, then the time to fix them would have been as soon as you realized that they were breeding true. Since you didn't, you should have just left well enough alone and let them dwindle to nothing on their own. What you have done is a slap to both the alt owners and non-owners.

 

And now I need to step away again because, . . . well, just because.

This pretty well sums up exactly how I feel about this issue.
 

It's really disheartening to see such a huge step backwards when otherwise the site has been moving away from exclusivity (reintroducing retired breeds and allowing new users to have CBs of all holidays). 

[Brekke]

5 minutes ago, KrazyKarp said:

If it were up to me, I'd just say turn all the black Sweets into pink and be done with it. Obviously, that isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I highly doubt that would ever happen. However, I seriously think that the logic of the situation takes priority over the emotions of the situation: "Black Sweets were a mistake and need to be fixed" (logic) vs. "I love my black Sweets, don't take them away." (emotion)

 

I suppose for now we just wait until black Sweets become so rare that we just "forget" about their existence. That's the closest we'll get to being rid of them.

 

I don't agree with you there.  8 years of something--that's a long, long time.  It's silly to take away something that was allowed to be part of the game for 8 long years.  The emotion bit was giving them away in 2010 because people lost their eggs for an hour!  Talk about emotion rather than logic--that horse left the barn in 2010.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Brekke

[Fuzzbucket]

19 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

TJ, nothing you have said has brought me a bit closer to understanding why it was necessary to take any action at all after all these years. If they were intended originally to behave like spriter's alts, then the time to fix them would have been as soon as you realized that they were breeding true. Since you didn't, you should have just left well enough alone and let them dwindle to nothing on their own. What you have done is a slap to both the alt owners and non-owners.

 

And now I need to step away again because, . . . well, just because.

 

As others have said - this is the crux behind all the ill feeling. Very well said.

[Mewtie]

Giving some the opportunity to obtain both, or the ones they actually preferred, does not strike me as a disadvantage to the rest when compared to past circumstances. If not all can have both versions, I think it still is better when at least some can. 

 

44 minutes ago, Brekke said:

I don't agree with you there.  8 years of something--that's a long, long time.  It's silly to take away something that was allowed to be part of the game for 8 long years.  The emotion bit was giving them away in 2010 because people lost there eggs for an hour!  Talk about emotion rather than logic--that horse left the barn in 2010.

Hm, I doubt that is the case. Without any emotional connection, it probably wouldn't be an issue to remove them at all, or at least, I currently don't see why it would be. The fact that the actual mistake was done before does not contradict that; next to their implementation, it would be their stay which is silly by that logic, not their later removal. Nonetheless, I do not think emotions should be completely disregarded for subjective, social beings. 

[Brekke]

6 minutes ago, xDragonia said:

Giving some the opportunity to obtain both, or the ones they actually preferred, does not strike me as a disadvantage to the rest when compared to past circumstances. If not all can have both versions, I think it still is better when at least some can. 

 

Hm, I doubt that is the case. Without any emotional connection, it probably wouldn't be an issue to remove them at all, or at least, I currently don't see why it would be. The fact that the actual mistake was done before does not contradict that; next to their implementation, it would be their stay which is silly by that logic, not their later removal. Nonetheless, I do not think emotions should be completely disregarded for subjective, social beings. 

I'm not saying it's not emotional now--of course it is.  I'm just saying that it was just as emotional back then.  And really--this is a game about collecting pixel creatures, naming them, breeding them.  Thinking that any decision isn't going to include a lot of emotion isn't very logical.  

[JavaTigress]

6 minutes ago, Brekke said:

I'm not saying it's not emotional now--of course it is.  I'm just saying that it was just as emotional back then.  And really--this is a game about collecting pixel creatures, naming them, breeding them.  Thinking that any decision isn't going to include a lot of emotion isn't very logical.  

Exactly Right, Brekke.

 

That reasoning COULD work if DC users were all vulcans... but we are not. We are definitely HUMAN. And humans have emotions, whether we like it or not.

It is a fact that has to be worked into any decision that is made... admittedly that it DOES complicate things.

[Ruby Eyes]

Hey, Vulcans have feelings, too! They just pretend to be able to control them

 

Personally, I have to say that pink is my least favourite colour - not just when it comes to Sweetlings, but in general. It would make me quite sad to see one of the coolest valentine dragons just disappear like this

[JavaTigress]

31 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Hey, Vulcans have feelings, too! They just pretend to be able to control them

 

Personally, I have to say that pink is my least favourite colour - not just when it comes to Sweetlings, but in general. It would make me quite sad to see one of the coolest valentine dragons just disappear like this

True enough Ruby eyes. My point IS that asking humans to have a vulcan level of control over emotions isn't gonna work.

While, admitted some of us can stand to do a better job than we do at NOT letting them get the better of us, Wherein I to some extent agree with xDragonia, asking people to leave the emotional element out of it altogether isn't easy. I mean, it is a fact that people do NOT respond well to having something that has been theirs for eight years stripped away with no explanation. Reasonably, yes that would be the cleanest and neatest way to remove  the 'issue'; but I think that would be painfully unfair to alt owners to simply pink them all.

Edited February 14, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Alrexwolf]

What's the point of doing anything on this website if TJ can, at his whim, decide "hey I decide I want this to be rare, go away, and tell everyone that because I've decided that, I'm not going to listen to a thing they have to say."

 

TJ mentioned nothing about Kila in anything I saw. I still think that's garbagé (unless Kila specifically asked him to pretend her decision was his, for some reason??). This should not be TJ's decision alone. 

 

My (not serious) suggestion for sweets: turn them all black. They've caused so much chaos, anger, and frustration that I feel the alts are a much better representation of the breed nowadays.

[Brekke]

2 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

True enough Ruby eyes. My point IS that asking humans to have a vulcan levelof control over emotions isn't gonna work>

Neither is TJ pretending this about the mechanics of the site and nothing more.

[deleted]

I will say my opinion on this: TJ wants to keep the CBs rare, right? Some ''new Hollies''. Keep CBs rare. No more CB Alt Sweetlings to anyone. Let them breed Black Sweetlings too. Like Solstices. But 2nd gens will be rarer.

 

Original owners can dump a CB Black Sweetling and take a Pink one. No turning back. Black breeds black, Pink breeds pink. Black Sweetlings owners can get Pink by trading. Same do the no-alt owners. In the end, the hatchling doesn't change its colors depending on scroll. 

 

And everyone is happy. Though I don't mind any other solution, I'm okay with removal, them staying only to the original alt owerns etc.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Shuuichi

[JavaTigress]

20 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

TJ mentioned nothing about Kila in anything I saw. This should not be TJ's decision alone. 

Interesting point now you mention it.

I know some of the other users have stated that Kila has been asked in the past for wider distribution and said 'no'.

NO mention of her insisting that they be retired ( WHICH if that were the case would have been an EASY out for TJ in on this matter when this... stuff... went down in the first place. He could have just said it was Kila's request... unless,a s you say.... she asked him NOT to implicate her for some reason or other.) I note that whatever the reason.... he HAS NOT. One wonders why that is when, if that were at issue, it would be the OBVIOUS thing to do.

Edited February 14, 2018 by JavaTigress

[laertid]

1 hour ago, KrazyKarp said:

If it were up to me, I'd just say turn all the black Sweets into pink and be done with it. Obviously, that isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I highly doubt that would ever happen. However, I seriously think that the logic of the situation takes priority over the emotions of the situation: "Black Sweets were a mistake and need to be fixed" (logic) vs. "I love my black Sweets, don't take them away." (emotion)

 

I suppose for now we just wait until black Sweets become so rare that we just "forget" about their existence. That's the closest we'll get to being rid of them.

 

Edit: I'm basing this post off of TJ's post. The best solution is still releasing them to everyone, but because TJ is so set on them being unnecessarily rare, making them all pink is the next best option.

 

I'd agree with you, but yeah, pretty unpopular opinion

 

11 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

My (not serious) suggestion for sweets: turn them all black. They've caused so much chaos, anger, and frustration that I feel the alts are a much better representation of the breed nowadays.

 

Actually, nice one. Alt sweetlings are so rare and desired not because of "only X people have them, I want too", but because of their colour. No other valentine dragon ever had black-and-dark-red combo. (And I'm pretty sure 2018 Valentine will be another pink too; don't make me wrong, I love pink, but seeing one pink after another, with small exception of Radiant Angels, is kinda... meh.) People just want the cool black dragon with skull on its butt. They don't want to take away some rare gift or some stuff.

Edited February 14, 2018 by laertid

[Fuzzbucket]

20 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

TJ mentioned nothing about Kila in anything I saw. I still think that's garbagé (unless Kila specifically asked him to pretend her decision was his, for some reason??). This should not be TJ's decision alone. 

 

My (not serious) suggestion for sweets: turn them all black. They've caused so much chaos, anger, and frustration that I feel the alts are a much better representation of the breed nowadays.

 

We don't know if TJ talked to Kila. That is for him and her to know.

 

But yeah - all going black works for me

[Brekke]

I don't mean the following question to be sarcastic or snarky in any way.  I always thought of art here as bought and paid for by TJ.  Why should Kila's opinion matter at all?  Again--I'm totally ignorant about this issue--it's not an attack on spriters.  But I don't understand--why does her opinion matter?  I'm looking for information not a confrontation, I promise.  

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

My (not serious) suggestion for sweets: turn them all black. They've caused so much chaos, anger, and frustration that I feel the alts are a much better representation of the breed nowadays.

ACTUALLY.... I have a feeling this idea would make at least a few owners of pinks VERY happy.

 

Quote

39 minutes ago, Brekke said:

I don't mean the following question to be sarcastic or snarky in any way.  I always thought of art here as bought and paid for by TJ.  Why should Kila's opinion matter at all?  Again--I'm totally ignorant about this issue--it's not an attack on spriters.  But I don't understand--why does her opinion matter?  I'm looking for information not a confrontation, I promise.  

I work in a photo department so... IF I may interject on this question?

 

Sometimes with professionally done photos ( by a pro photographer that is?) Buying and paying for copies of the artwork does NOT necessarily mean that you get the rights to do with the images whatever you would like. With those I must often have a copyright release...amounting to permission FROM the photographer... from a  customer before I can make copies of the photo? Our DC artwork may have some similar issues attached to it? I am unsure that TJ actually PAYS the spriters for their work.... but even IF he did, copyrights and contracts and such are sometimes still an issue. I don't really KNOW what agreements they come to when a dragon is slated to be released in cave, to be honest... so PARTLY speculation on my part. BOTTOM LINE... TJs hands could be tied legally as to what he is allowed to do without Kila's permission.

 

Hope that helps clear things up a LITTLE? It IS a confusing issue for sure.

Edited February 14, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Kelkelen]

1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

TJ, nothing you have said has brought me a bit closer to understanding why it was necessary to take any action at all after all these years. If they were intended originally to behave like spriter's alts, then the time to fix them would have been as soon as you realized that they were breeding true. Since you didn't, you should have just left well enough alone and let them dwindle to nothing on their own. What you have done is a slap to both the alt owners and non-owners.

 

And now I need to step away again because, . . . well, just because.

This. 

I don't understand the reasoning of "they aren't exclusive enough, therefore I must make them more exclusive after 8 years of letting them breed."  Why aren't they, and why must you?  Based on what criteria?  I think it's definitely special and exclusive enough that only those players who were originally gifted with them get to have Black Alt Sweetling CBs on their scrolls.  Why do you want them to be even more super-rare, and to eventually go obsolete?  Why now?  It's strange (and disheartening) to have parts of one's collection "taken away"  or suddenly made unbreedable in a collectibles game, especially if there isn't a clear reason on the table (like copyright, or artist's stated wishes). 

The following is why I think permitting Black Alt Sweetlings to breed true could be a GOOD idea, while still preserving the original intent of the spriter's gift:

It wouldn't damage their "special status" IF other people could receive bred Black Alt Sweetlings, since only the original recipients would have CBs.  Okay, so it might create a niche market, but so what?  People already want 2nd-gens from CB female Hollies, from Spriter's Alts, from Prizes, from Thuweds, from CB Alt Blacks and so on; I don't see how the Black Alt Sweetling market would be any worse.  IF the Sweetlings bred true to parentage, regardless of scroll, then there would be less market demand for 2nd-gen Black Sweetlings than for the above listed breeds, since players could obtain an Alt Black Sweetling sprite on their scroll without having to depend on the original owners to breed for them (unlike CB Spriter Alts, which players can only have as an ancestor, and so want to see as clearly as possible in the lineage; more like Prizes, which you can have on your own scroll at any generation; and about as easy as higher-gen Prizes to obtain, since there are plenty of Black Alt Sweetling lineages out there already.  How would it be worse than the demand for 2nd-gens from CB female Hollies or CB Alt Blacks?  And are those demands in any way killing trade, at present? 

TJ, I'm still confused as to WHAT the problem is, WHY it's a problem, and HOW your current change addresses it.  I'm hearing you saying:
* CB Alt Black Sweetlings were a one-time special release to a small group of people -- so is it that you don't want to take away the "specialness" of their gift?  Or is it that you're afraid of giving them too much trading power?  Or is it that you think they deserve to have access to the standard dragon, and are being denied something that other players have?  In which case, why do they deserve two sprites and the other players only merit one? 
* We have to respect the original intent that they were never meant to have a widespread release -- Okay, but are we talking about your intent, or the spriter's, or both?  And why is the change happening NOW?  Why was it alright not to change it, before now?  Also, do you draw any distinction between widespread release of CBs, versus growing availability due to breedability?  Overall, why is the original intent not subject to change, taking the past 8 years into consideration -- what was bad about how it was?  WHY is it bad if Alt scrolls breed Alt dragons for their owners? 
* The end goal is complete retirement. -- Why?  Whether you do it all at once, or slowly over time, people are still confused as to why they have to be retired from breeding at all.  Especially since on one hand, you seem to be saying that their exclusivity needs to be preserved above all else, but on the other hand, you don't want them to have any effect on trade based on their exclusivity.  Plus, if they can eventually no longer breed true, I believe the demand for 2nd-gens from Black Atl Sweetlings will skyrocket, far worse than if they DO breed true, because getting a 2nd-gen will become the preferred way to have a Black Alt Sweetling in your collection -- if you can't have one on your own scroll, and less lineages are dropping that include them, the next best thing will be owning a 2nd-gen from one. 
* You don't want to break people's lineages, so you revised your change -- but why not just go back to how it was before?  The current situation makes it harder for Black Alt Sweetling owners to build their lineages, and created a tiny trade bubble where they have to depend on one another, segregating them from trade with other players. 

I don't understand the reasoning behind making a change that's not actually going to make anybody happy, if it isn't also at least an improvement of some sort.  I don't see who or what this benefits.

[Brekke]

I have to say that my least favorite change to a website like this is changing a sprite.  I think it's a violation of a very fundamental agreement--you brought me here to play your game, I collected your sprites, I bred them, I made gorgeous lineages that were beautiful in my eyes with the materials you gave me.  Then you changed them.  I more or less quit here when TJ changed the gold sprites without allowing me to keep the old ones.  I would have even accepted never being able to breed them again, if I could have just kept them.  It had nothing to do with the artwork--the new sprites are fine.  But TJ changed something that I had played with and enjoyed for a long time.  I only came back here in December.  For the first time in nine years, I got a gold out of the cave in my first half hour!  Don't know how that happened--but I think of the dragon as a totally new breed completely unrelated to the old ones.  Back when he changed them--I renamed every singe gold dragon I had because I thought--this is a new breed.

 

Sorry for the rambling story, but it has a purpose:  I oppose any change to the sprites people already have.  Any change, any at all, should allow people to keep the sprites they have in their original form.  I'm all for a wider release--bump us to 4 cb sweetlings and let us have two each.  Or go back to the way things used to be 2 weeks ago.  But I'm dead set against changing the sprites people have enjoyed for 8 years.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Brekke

[Kelkelen]

6 minutes ago, Brekke said:

I have to say that my least favorite change to a website like this is changing a sprite.  I think it's a violation of a very fundamental agreement--you brought me here to play your game, I collected your sprites, I bred them, I made gorgeous lineages that were beautiful in my eyes with the materials you gave me.  Then you changed them.  I more or less quit here when TJ changed the gold sprites without allowing me to keep the old ones.  I would have even accepted never being able to breed them again, if I could have just kept them.  It had nothing to do with the artwork--the new sprites are fine.  But TJ changed something that I had played with and enjoyed for a long time.  I only came back here in December.  For the first time in nine years, I got a gold out of the cave in my first half hour!  Don't know how that happened--but I think of the dragon as a totally new breed completely unrelated to the old ones.  Back when he changed them--I renamed every singe gold dragon I had because I thought--this is a new breed.

 

Sorry for the rambling story, but it has a purpose:  I oppose any change to the sprites people already have.  Any change, any at all, should allow people to keep the sprites they have in their original form.  I'm all for a wider release--bump us to 4 cb sweetlings and let us have two each.  But I'm dead set against changing the sprites people have enjoyed for 8 years.

I agree.  100%.  If you want to make something new, fine.  New Golds, as a new breed, cool.  New Nilia Pygmy.  But I'm still devastated over losing the old Nilias!  I loved them!!  They were adorable and joyous and perfect.  What's the point of a collecting game when some part of your collection can be confiscated at a moment's notice?  What if you had collected a ton of a new dragon, like Fire Gems, because you loved them, and then suddenly next week they all looked different?  Why does it matter if a sprite is old or new?  If you don't like the look of an older one, then you don't have to collect it.  But if you do, then you should be allowed to keep it!

[Twinstar]

1 hour ago, KrazyKarp said:

If it were up to me, I'd just say turn all the black Sweets into pink and be done with it. Obviously, that isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I highly doubt that would ever happen. However, I seriously think that the logic of the situation takes priority over the emotions of the situation: "Black Sweets were a mistake and need to be fixed" (logic) vs. "I love my black Sweets, don't take them away." (emotion)

 

I suppose for now we just wait until black Sweets become so rare that we just "forget" about their existence. That's the closest we'll get to being rid of them.

 

Edit: I'm basing this post off of TJ's post. The best solution is still releasing them to everyone, but because TJ is so set on them being unnecessarily rare, making them all pink is the next best option.

I agree with this.

 

I'm tired of always wishing I could get the alt and being told that only those few select will ever have them and no one else will. If they were a mistake, then it should have been fixed to begin with instead of a special alt made for others besides the spriter. If anything happens during releases, they just get fixed, no compensation. So why wasn't that done then? The point of this game is to try to get all the dragon breeds, right? So why have a breed/alt that is IMPOSSIBLE to get (aside from spriter's alts)?

[Brekke]

18 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

 

Snip, since it's so long to quote--but thank you for the info!

 

I think it boils down to two choices:

1.  Go back to the way things were 2 weeks ago

2.  CB alts for all, drop 'em, let everyone have 4 Sweetlings in whatever color combo they want.  But the egg description should be subtly different.

[JavaTigress]

14 minutes ago, Brekke said:

Snip, since it's so long to quote--but thank you for the info!

 

I think it boils down to two choices:

1.  Go back to the way things were 2 weeks ago

2.  CB alts for all, drop 'em, let everyone have 4 Sweetlings in whatever color combo they want.  But the egg description should be subtly different.

I agree... though from TJs responses, I am beginning to think that option one may be the best we can hope for.