Suggestions for Sweets

[Fuzzbucket]

You haven't answered mine. If they were to stay as limited as they were, which I have always been fine with - why was any change needed at all ? All the change has done is mean that a few people can now have both sprites - which gives them an even greater specialness than they had before, as they can have pinks too and still breed alts.

 

Other than that I agree with you - endlessly suggesting things that you have made clear won't happen is pretty pointless.

[Kelkelen]

On 2/15/2018 at 9:06 AM, Kelkelen said:

HOW is this change good?
WHAT does it fix?

WHO does it help?

(And "It fixes that they weren't super rare by making them super rare because they have to be super rare" isn't an answer unless we understand WHY they have to be.)

 

9 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

It's one thing to disagree with the explanation, but the explanation is out there. I've already said why. All I can guess at this point is people don't like what I said and assume there's some other reason I'm not giving—but I can assure everyone here there's not some ulterior motive. The reasoning you're looking for has been posted.

Firstly, TJ, thanks for coming back in here and replying.  It's very much appreciated. 
Secondly, I don't think people are looking for an ulterior motive.   They're just not sure why THESE sprites suddenly need to be phased out, when other previously "niche" or "exclusive" sprites are going in the opposite direction and becoming more public.  I've got a longer post back there somewhere in which I tried to elaborate on what we're still looking for in the answer, but the basic idea is -- you said they were exclusive 8 years ago and weren't meant to become widespread.  Okay, statement of fact.   But they have become more widespread, and most users were fine with how things were, so what necessitated the change?  Basically.... those three questions above are the ones I'd really like to hear a clear answer to, if you have any chance to reply to them throughout the coming week.  Thanks!

[TJ09]

On 2/14/2018 at 8:08 AM, Kelkelen said:

We have to respect the original intent that they were never meant to have a widespread release -- Okay, but are we talking about your intent, or the spriter's, or both?

I tried to find my original communications on the matter to be absolutely sure, but I do believe it was never the intent of anyone involved for them to see broad distribution.

On 2/14/2018 at 8:08 AM, Kelkelen said:

Also, do you draw any distinction between widespread release of CBs, versus growing availability due to breedability?

The unique property of CBs (being the beginning of any lineage) makes them inherently more valuable in the trading economy.

On 2/14/2018 at 8:08 AM, Kelkelen said:

And why is the change happening NOW?  Why was it alright not to change it, before now?

I touched on this in my post, but as past event dragons start seeing changes give allow them to be redistributed again, alts were left in a weird state that needed to be addressed one way or the other. It's not going to be one of the two directions, so it had to be the other.

[Brekke]

5 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

 

I touched on this in my post, but as past event dragons start seeing changes give allow them to be redistributed again, alts were left in a weird state that needed to be addressed one way or the other. It's not going to be one of the two directions, so it had to be the other.

See now--this is the first time I've actually understood what you're saying about the issue.  Maybe I don't agree, but at last, I feel it's clear.

[Fuzzbucket]

WHY was any change needed at all ? They can still breed true on alt owners scrolls; they still alt when sent to another alt owners scroll. The only thing this has achieved is allowing alt owners to have both colours,. How does that not make their situation even more of a "weird state" than it was before ?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Brekke]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

WHY was any change needed at all ? They can still breed true on alt owners scrolls; they still alt when sent to another alt owners scroll. The only thing this has achieved is allowing alt owners to have both colours,. How does that not make their situation even more of a "weird state" than it was before ?

Exactly--well stated.

[boscodelta]

I understand now the reasoning behind not spreading them around; the why, the when, etc. My question is this then, if 90% (Just a random percentage I'm pulling out here) of the userbase wanted the distribution of alts and the other 10% (including you) did not -- would you consider releasing them? or is this whole discussion beating a dead horse? (-Beating a dead horse but allowing your users to ask you questions about your decision, anyways)

 

I'd like to know the answer to Fuzzbucket's question as well...

Edited February 16, 2018 by boscodelta

[Dragon_Arbock]

@TJ09 Maybe you think you explained it well, but you really didn't. You said that they need to remain niche. You did not say why they need to remain niche. Just saying that you want them niche isn't a satisfactory answer.

(also does the original intent matter? Kila isn't here and doesn't sound like you tried to talk to them either about it).

 

You also have refused to comment on the idea of non-alts being able to breed alts, such as a time of day breeding system.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Dragon_Arbock

[TJ09]

1 minute ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

You also have refused to comment on the idea of non-alts being able to breed alts, such as a time of day breeding system.

In such a case, my reasoning why alts-breeding-alts is a bad idea still applies, since CBs would be the only way for people to start PB lineages.

[Dragon_Arbock]

1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

In such a case, my reasoning why alts-breeding-alts is a bad idea still applies, since CBs would be the only way for people to start PB lineages.

 

It would be better than nothing, and most people would be happy to build lines that start with pinks then turn black (like building with any other alts). Does trading really have to be the reason you say no to everything? I don't see anything being done about the prizes having taken over the market. If anything, more raffles made it worse.

[TJ09]

2 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

 

It would be better than nothing, and most people would be happy to build lines that start with pinks then turn black (like building with any other alts). Does trading really have to be the reason you say no to everything? I don't see anything being done about the prizes having taken over the market. If anything, more raffles made it worse.

No, a strong opinion that alts shouldn't see broader distribution for reasons I've touched on earlier is my reason for saying no in this case.

 

I disagree on raffles making things worse (and what I've been seeing from others also disagrees), but that's a separate subject.

[Fuzzbucket]

19 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

WHY was any change needed at all ? They can still breed true on alt owners scrolls; they still alt when sent to another alt owners scroll. The only thing this has achieved is allowing alt owners to have both colours,. How does that not make their situation even more of a "weird state" than it was before ?

 

*cough*

 

I'm not actually hostile here; I do get that they will never again show up CB and that's OK, really; it was OK that way before. I just really don't get how this change improves anything from YOUR point of view.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Dragon_Arbock]

@TJ09 I still don't exactly get your reasoning, considering most people here would have been okay with it, I do not see who it would be hurting. It's hurting more people now with the changes you have already made.

I do not get the reason for your strong opinion. Your site, I know you can do what you want, but it does not please most, if not all of us. It's not really anything that sacred or special, so I don't see the big deal.

[TJ09]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

*cough*

 

I'm not actually hostile here; I do get that they will never again show up CB and that's OK, really; it was OK that way before. I just really don't get how this change improves anything from YOUR point of view.

Two posts above the post you quoted is your answer:

 

32 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

On 2/14/2018 at 8:08 AM, Kelkelen said:

And why is the change happening NOW?  Why was it alright not to change it, before now?

I touched on this in my post, but as past event dragons start seeing changes give allow them to be redistributed again, alts were left in a weird state that needed to be addressed one way or the other. It's not going to be one of the two directions, so it had to be the other.

 

[boscodelta]

16 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

@TJ09 I still don't exactly get your reasoning, considering most people here would have been okay with it, I do not see who it would be hurting. It's hurting more people now with the changes you have already made.

I do not get the reason for your strong opinion. Your site, I know you can do what you want, but it does not please most, if not all of us. It's not really anything that sacred or special, so I don't see the big deal.

 

Thats what I was getting at. It's "niche" fine. It's "special" fine. YOU don't want a wide release, fine. All I'm asking is - if MOST of the userbase wanted a wider distribution - WOULD you consider it and if not, WHY wouldn't you consider it? Like Dragon said it's not pleasing most people

 

Just wanted to throw in here that I understand that if a release like that isn't going to happen, it isn't going to happen plain and simple. I'm not fighting that fact and I'm not arguing - I'm just curious as to whether you would consider it if that's what the majority wanted even though it's "niche"

 

@Warhound perfectly summed up my entire opinion on the matter a couple posts below. If our opinions are counting for anything or someone is keeping score lol.

Edited February 16, 2018 by boscodelta

[Brekke]

2 minutes ago, boscodelta said:

 

Thats what I was getting at. It's "niche" fine. It's "special" fine. YOU don't want a wide release, fine. All I'm asking is - if MOST of the userbase wanted a wider distribution - WOULD you consider it and if not, WHY wouldn't you consider it? Like Dragon said it's not pleasing most people

This. TJ--your answers seem so...mechanical.  It's all about the mechanics of the site.  I don't see much acknowledgement that you've created a site about collecting and breeding sprites.  There's an emotional element you are ignoring.  YOU created a site that encourages emotional play (breeding, families, names), so why don't you acknowledge the emotional element of your own site?

[Shadowdrake]

38 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

alts were left in a weird state that needed to be addressed one way or the other.

Is this at least partly meaning you didn't want any CB alts that were not the original affected sweetlings to pop up, regardless that they will remain on alt-only scrolls, and thus made this patch/fix/whatever?

[VVarhound]

With the statement "Alt sweetlings are rare" I think it's worth considering the purpose of rarity in a game like this, in the first place. It gives people something that's a challenge to work towards, whether it's a specific dragon or a specific lineage - there's nothing particularly wrong with rarity for rarity's sake, but there's a difference between rare and completely unobtainable.  The way the site has been moving, it seems like there's been a tendency towards making things more widely accessible, not less. Bringing back CB holidays from previous years in general being a huge example. That in itself is not only something that initially was never intended, but would have even been the sort of thing that I could have imagined seeing opposition to the idea - people saying that CBs were something special and exclusive for people who had been playing the game long enough to have picked them up at the time. And that technically wouldn't have been wrong. But they were still brought back, presumably to get wider distribution and allow more newer users to enjoy them. Same for the addition of the monthly raffles, or even bringing back retired dragons like the aria and frills. Things that were once extremely limited, exclusive or completely unattainable, but now are maybe still rare enough to be a challenge, but not completely out of reach. Personally I think that trend is a decidedly good thing. Alts may not have initially been intended to see wider distribution, but the "why" that I'm still wondering, and guessing that others are probably wondering as well, is why it needs to stay that way when the rest of the site seems to be moving towards the opposite, and in my opinion better, direction.

 

And then there's just simply the fact that now we have a situation where a small group of people have access to two different sprites while the rest of the site only has access to one. If some people being stuck with alts when they prefer the pink is a valid reason to give people with alts access to the original, then why wouldn't some people being stuck with the original when they prefer the alts not be an equally valid reason to let people with the original have access to the alts in some fashion?

[Fuzzbucket]

I did read it. You said:

 

52 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

I tried to find my original communications on the matter to be absolutely sure, but I do believe it was never the intent of anyone involved for them to see broad distribution.

The unique property of CBs (being the beginning of any lineage) makes them inherently more valuable in the trading economy.

I touched on this in my post, but as past event dragons start seeing changes give allow them to be redistributed again, alts were left in a weird state that needed to be addressed one way or the other. It's not going to be one of the two directions, so it had to be the other.

 

That doesn't actually explain why any change was needed. They were unique to a few scrolls. They bred true but only stayed alt on those few scrolls. That is still the case, but now those owners can also get regular pinks. How does that improve anything, and how does it help anything given the very welcome redistribution of old CBs - which doesn't affect the scrolls of alt owners at all; they have alts; no new players will ever get alts, and now alt owners can now get a pink as their second - which feels hard to the rest of us; if you talk trading economy (which I hate as a concept and ignore wherever I can) they can now command even higher "prices". (Not, I hasten to say, that they do - anyone I have ever asked for a 2nd gen from an alt has gifted me one for free.)

Edited February 16, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[ArielGrint]

For those who haven't seen it yet - Kila has weighed in:

 

https://sta.sh/027o34t7aszz

 

So I guess no further discussion beyond "let's revert to the way things were before" can happen anymore

[Tiki G]

3 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

You haven't answered mine. If they were to stay as limited as they were, which I have always been fine with - why was any change needed at all ? All the change has done is mean that a few people can now have both sprites - which gives them an even greater specialness than they had before, as they can have pinks too and still breed alts.

 

Other than that I agree with you - endlessly suggesting things that you have made clear won't happen is pretty pointless.

 

I do believe a good answer to that would be what I posted (and TJ linked to in his original post here) a while back:

 

On 2/12/2018 at 9:22 AM, Tiki G said:

 

There are only a few dozen alt sweetling owners out there, and the amount of active owners will just continue to dwindle down to a handful. We can only continue our lines so far until eventually, there's just no more CB's to contribute to the line. We can only go so many generations until ultimately we are forced to abandon it and start something else. And, eventually, that something else will have to be Pink sweets.

 

 

So, whether Alt Sweets do eventually get a full retirement, or they will stay as is currently, that still remains to be seen (though i am under the impression that they will eventually be completely retired).

But I do believe this is a less harsh solution to continue to limit alts and keep lines going.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Tiki G

[Moonlight_Eevee]

39 minutes ago, ArielGrint said:

For those who haven't seen it yet - Kila has weighed in:

 

https://sta.sh/027o34t7aszz

 

So I guess no further discussion beyond "let's revert to the way things were before" can happen anymore

I'm glad she weighed in. She's the artist and while I don't know if TJ did contact her or not before the change, we must respect her wishes on the manner. Now that I see it, I'm okay with it and don't want the Sweetlings to be pulled

[Fuzzbucket]

GREAT ! Now can this thread be closed and the subject never raised again ?

 

Though I see she DOES say that they should be scroll locked. People with alts should only have alts and people with pinks only pinks. Which was what we had before so I HOPE we can go back to that. That is what I have been asking for since Day 1.

 

By the way - if you are still watching, Kila - I would have PMd you, but as several people said they were doing so, I thought it would be a PIA to be swamped. I know you can be contacted; you have bred for me whenever I have asked But I suspect several people who might have made contact held off for similar reasons.

Edited February 16, 2018 by LadyLyzar
Hiding Kila's post since a lot of it is rude to DC's users

[Sazandora]

So that settles it, then. Maybe now this madness can end.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So a bad decision from 8 years ago is enforced by someone who doesn’t play any more. Meh. As I’ve said before I am a writer and artist myself with a host of characters I’m dearly attached to, but I think things submitted to a game played by thousands should, within reason, work for the improvement of the game above all else.

 

The game certainly won’t die without spreading them around... but it would have given thousands another beautiful sprite to collect and play with. 

 

Edit: it’s also pretty sad how a discussion that was rational, usually civil, even friendly gets a response that’s essentially “stop whining or I’ll pull all of them, you greedy children.” How kind. How DARE we want to collect a pretty sprite on a game that has little to offer beyond collecting pretty sprites.

 

I like Sweetlings, but this whole thing is making me feel Solstice-retirement-level sour towards them.

Edited February 16, 2018 by angelicdragonpuppy