Suggestions for Sweets

[LadyLyzar]

7 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

@LadyLyzar With all due respect, he has changed his mine before. Until we actually get a clear answer as to why, I'm going to keep asking. If it's literally something he can't do by law, then I'll have to submit, but if it's him thinking that alt owners would be upset by wider distribution.. well he should actually ask them.

 

I seriously doubt the opinions of alt owners have anything to do with it.  I'd love it if more people had them to make lineage building easier, and from observation most don't seem to mind.  That being said, I 100% believe that if he wanted wider distribution, or alts breeding true or whatever, he would have done it by now.

 

I think the new breed idea is an interesting one but I would not want it to be an official holiday release.  I feel that would be a fairly large disappointment since it's something that's been on the site for almost 10 years, and would deny others a chance at a new release.

[Imzadi]

45 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

Dude ...what if the alts were rereleased as a "new breed" for Valentines next year (as I'm sure they have already chosen this year's). This would solve EVERYTHING ...we'd get the "alts" and no one would have to choose between one of each (releasing oldd favorites) or 2 of one or the other. This keeps the breed limit at 2 per valentines breed (since a lot of folk seem to like that come hunting season.) This would also take out all the arguments behind mechanics and all that (no BSAs that could potentially ruin lineages, no having to be online to snag/breed/hatch eggs at odd hours of the day/night, etc)

 

Then the whole arguement against "no more wider distribution of the alts" would be moot...as they wouldnt be alts anymore..they would be an entirely NEW breed!

Actually, it would just create a different problem, if I understand you correctly.  I would get 2 alts, therefore having 2 of each, but the current alt owners would get...nothing.  Unless of course they could get 2 from the valentine biome, if there is one next year.  And we don't know that, of course.

 

As it currently stands, I'd prefer it go back to the way it has always been.   

[Fuzzbucket]

10 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

There's not a one of us that understands what goes on in his head, I'm afraid.

 

However, based on this, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.
 

 

As such I think we should focus on solutions that do not involve spreading alts around.  Yes I know it stinks that not everyone will be able to get one but it is what it is.

 

Given this I support full rollback to the previous system as the current one destroys a lot of lineage creation potential.

 

Me too. Also three, four and half a dozen.

 

9 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

Find it funny that everyone is railing at me for a poor analogy.

 

But yet NO ONE is considering the merits of my edit? I guess no one likes my answer?

 

Well anyways if my ideas dont get merit im not just going to voice them and I'll let you guys go in circles about "alt" sweets. I will just let you know...even if wider distribution of alt sweets DOES end up happening...I can almost guarentee it wont happen this year. To the point I'd be willing to bet real money on it.

 

I didn't see your edit till afterwards. I'd be fine with that - but I will lay odds that there will be two sets of complainers - the (very few) alt owners who object to their special things being let loose for the masses, and those who object to not getting their New Thing This Year.

 

It's unwinnable - and should have been left as it was. Any change to a status quo of this magnitude will always cause more problems than it solves.

[Auriene]

2 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

I think the new breed idea is an interesting one but I would not want it to be an official holiday release.  I feel that would be a fairly large disappointment since it's something that's been on the site for almost 10 years, and would deny others a chance at a new release.

 

Then maybe it would be possible to release them on February 15 and let them drop for one day or more, if necessary. If I may quote my previous post:

 

Quote

Alt Sweetlings are connected to Single Awareness Day, so maybe they could drop as CBs only on February 15 - in this way, they could remain somewhat more special than regular pink ones, and I suppose that this could be also a nod towards the spriter's original idea of them. It would be nice to know the spriter's thoughts on that matter first, though I don't really know how the art using terms work here.

 

[Alrexwolf]

I think at this point the only way to really fix it is to make it so more people can get them - whether it be letting alt owners breed 2nd gens, as I presume it was, or releasing them as CBs (highly preferred), or even a BSA.

 

TJ says that alts won't see a wider distribution, yet should he not speak to Kila first?? Should Kila not be made aware of all the drama this has caused, and what's happening over it? Honestly a lot of people talk about how artist's wishes trump all (and I agree, honestly), but it doesn't sound like TJ is basing his decision based on Kila's wishes; at least, he hasn't mentioned it at all. We don't even know what solution Kila thinks is best.

 

I want Kila to make the solution, and I want TJ to go along with whatever that solution is. Kila is, at this point, not playing at all, to my understanding? And has not been for some time. I feel any decision they make will be the fairest one, not clouded by the toxicity/drama surrounding the alts or the want of people who desire more CB alts. I feel that's fairest, as alts are their creation to begin with.

 

However, I feel like if Kila only answers TJ, we'll never know what their actual decision is. I hope at least one of the mods or players is answered, and we can see Kila's wishes for ourselves.

[Brekke]

40 minutes ago, Aurigena said:

@Kelkelen I also didn't mean to come off as confrontational, so I guess that I should apologise if I sounded that way It's just that... I'm not really a part of the forum community, but I find it a tiny bit sad that so many people here lost their time (and nerves) trying to solve a problem that wasn't created by them... again. A problem that remains somewhat undefined, because nobody really knows anything about the TJ's reasons or intentions... again.

 

 

 

This is the issue in a nutshell.  I've never understood why TJ doesn't just...tell us stuff.

[laertid]

1 hour ago, Vampyre said:

To not ask would be like someone giving you a giftcard to your favorite restraunt ...and then your siblings whinging that they want to go and your parents forcing you to take your siblings with you totally disregarding of the fact that it was YOUR gift. Sure you probably wouldnt mind sharing (if the money amount was large enough) but to be forced to share without even being asked? That would sting a little wouldnt it?

 

Not at all. You imply that we ask people to give us a part of their gift, but that's not how it works. Using your restaurant analogy, it's like your siblings (friends, colleages) got the same giftcards too and can go to that restaurant too now. Maybe you wanted to go there alone to have some quiet time to yourself - oops then. Maybe you'll be happy to be there with them - more fun! Anyway, you don't lose anything. But they gain something.

 

And about the edited part: I'm pretty sure black Sweets won't be released as a new breed for the next year. But release for February 15, as @Aurigena already suggested, is a nice idea.

Edited February 11, 2018 by laertid

[Brekke]

Just imagine...on the fourteenth...there are three different eggs instead of one in the main biomes--the new releases, pink sweetlings and black sweetlings as their own breed, or the limit raised to 4 sweetlings.  Even those only 4 egg slots could have 2 new releases and 1 of each sweetling if they have none, or for folks with 2 of either pink or black, they could get 2 new releases and 2 new sweetlings.  Maybe they could drop for four days instead of three.  I mean--I know this won't happen.  But wouldn't it be cool? 

[purplehaze]

@Alrexwolf But we don't know that TJ has NOT talked with Kila. We don't know anything at all. That is a large part of the problem. TJ does not see fit to let us know what goes into his decision-making. That may be okay in some things, but something as controversial as this?

 

@Vampyre - I wouldn't mind having a separate release of them, but not as the Valentine holiday dragon of the year. I think that would disappoint everyone who looks forward to a new pretty thing every year. I would prefer to see something like the Single Awareness Day release that someone suggested. But honestly, given TJ's statement, I don't see either happening. And a release of them as a cave drop would almost certainly have to be approved by Kila, even if other changes might not.

 

 

[LadyLoki]

*whispers* The idea of having a special release of Alt Sweetlings (This year, or next?) on Single Awareness Day would be really neat, imho.

[JavaTigress]

6 minutes ago, Fabula said:

*whispers* The idea of having a special release of Alt Sweetlings (This year, or next?) on Single Awareness Day would be really neat, imho.

I agree! BUT as others have said, I don't think I'd like altsweets released as the 2018 Val dragon. Besides... I would BET TJ already has THAT picked out already.

[LadyLoki]

1 minute ago, JavaTigress said:

I agree! BUT as others have said, I don't think I'd like altsweets released as the 2018 Val dragon. Besides... I would BET TJ already has THAT picked out already.

Well, considering it's a separate holiday all together, it would have to be a separate release. I would be a smidge disappointed if that was the actual V-day release (Although as a Pink Sweet owner/lover of Alt Sweets I'm a little on the biased side in that I would still be made happy lol *doesn't take much to make me happy* )

Maybe if they got their own biome for that one special day for them, so that it won't mess with the new V-day release in the other biomes. ^.^

[Lucere]

So, correct me if I'm wrong (and I apologize if I am wrong and have accidentally skipped over someone's opinion), but it seems like almost everyone is in agreement about two things:

 

1. The way things were before the 8th (i.e. sweetlings become alts on alt-coded scrolls, and become pinks on everyone else's scrolls) were better than the way things are now. 
2. More transparency behind why things were changed. Why did TJ suddenly decide to retire alt-sweetlings this year (i.e. 8 years after they were introduced)? Why is he not considering a wider release of the alts? etc. etc. Also, just about everyone wants to know Kila's opinion on the issue.

 

So maybe at the very least (i.e. "at least for now or for the forseeable future") we should roll things back to the way sweetlings behaved before the change? Or is there anyone who prefers the way things are now (not attacking anyone, I just want to be sure I understand everything)?

 

Nevermind.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Lucere
paragraphs are hard

[Zeditha]

As one of the many Pink owners who desperately loves the Alts (I have always had a fondness for the darker sprites... I wish I could make pretty sprites too!) I would like to place my rankings and pros/cons for suggestions on the Sweetlings.

 

1: My optimal scenario - release the Alts!

My personal favourite suggestion in regards to this has to be either the time-based egg system or a BSA to influence an egg. (The latter as an optional addition to colour sticking upon hatching.)

PROS - Everyone gets access to both beautiful sprites. Also lineages are unaffected (still easily possible to make alternating checkers!) and new Alts remain bred-only, retaining the 'special snowflake' attachment to the CBs.

CONS - Everyone gets access to Alts. Some potential for confusion with BSA? Definitely potential for confusion with time-based system. People will complain.

 

2: Optimal realistic scenario - let Alt owners choose!

I don't think it's fair, really, for an apology gift (no matter how generous and gorgeous) to preclude those affected from getting the thing that the apology is, in the first place, for. Hence I would like to see some solution that would allow Alt owners to collect Pink sweets. (Perhaps releasing CBs to get new ones could stay the only option to obtain CBs, as I don't see an alternative that doesn't involve raising Alt owners' limits, which is something I do NOT want to see happen.) One thought I have for this is to simply allow Pink sweets to lock their colour upon hatching, but Alt sweets remain scroll-locked. (Hatching any Sweet egg on an Alt scroll would have it alt, but it would become pink if traded to a non-alt scroll.)

PROS - Alt owners get access to both pretty things. No 'wider spread' of Alts. Lineages unaffected. Most things 'left as they are'.

CONS - Alts remain scroll-locked. Alt owners would have to egg-bounce for every Pink they wish to collect (I didn't say it was a perfect solution.) Alt owners get 'more special snowflake stuff'. People will complain.

 

3: Revert to the old ways

A revert back to the old system would not be perfect, of course (just look at the past 8 years of drama) but it would be better than what we have now, even if it would be a sore change for those Alt owners who have released their precious CBs. Still, it would be something. If Alts must remain scroll-locked, and Alt owners can't collect both sprites, then at least allow us back our status quo.

I don't think I need to list pros and cons here.

 

That's just my opinions on the issue. Personally I would love to have an Alt of my very own, and I would love to see the new influx of lineages built with the beauties, but if that's never going to happen, I would love it if at least Alt owners could collect both of the sprites that were worked so hard on.

[Stromboli]

I'm not particularly optimistic that TJ will change on his main point of "no further distribution" either, though he was willing to change from complete retirement to the new system...

And while it sounds like bred alts weren't the intended behavior... it became the expected behavior to users. Right now I'm not really understanding TJ's point that the new alt-parent requirement is a good way to mange alt lines from spreading. At least not when when you weigh it against the various kinds of alternating lines that just got axed with this update, which feels like a very large drawback. Alts could only occur on a fixed number of scrolls, who can only raise a certain number of dragons during the Valentine season. Obviously I don't know the backend mechanics, but does the new limitation really reduce the number of alts that can be reduced that much?

[Zeditha]

All of this unnecessary bitterness leaves a sour taste in the joy of finally collecting my two CB Sweetlings. (Just the Val '09 left to go now, should get easier as the event goes on, right?)

 

It's been 8 years, and there are so many different opinions on the topic that there is no longer any one 'right' answer. TJ's really dug himself a big hole here, and I don't see a way to fix it.

Well, retiring the alts completely would have eventually fixed it, but not without years of begging.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I mean, at that point, you go with whatever makes the most people happy. Only problem is, only a small subset of users use the forum. Something like an email survey or something that could reach more people would be more telling of what that is, but our bossman seems to be unwilling to collect any sort of site-wide feedback

[blockEdragon]

5 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I mean, at that point, you go with whatever makes the most people happy. Only problem is, only a small subset of users use the forum. Something like an email survey or something that could reach more people would be more telling of what that is, but our bossman seems to be unwilling to collect any sort of site-wide feedback

A site-wide thing sounds good for bigger issues, maybe the largest ideas could get polls prominently displayed to the whole site in a way similar to holiday events, except instead of following the riveting life of SNOWA you vote on a poll.

[purplehaze]

I remember at least one site-wide poll that TJ did many years ago -- so long that I have no recall of what it was about.

 

But I missed what you think he should poll us about. Would he be offering options on what to do with the Sweets? Nice, but without being party to the discussions we have had here a lot of people might not realize the implications of different options. And really, this site is not a democracy, nor do I think it should be. So if he does a poll, is he bound by the results? And if he is going to do what he wants anyway, why bother polling?

[Dragon_Arbock]

You can use polls as a way to gauge public opinion. And nothing saying the poll couldn't link to a thread.

But I would doubt most people who vote would care about those other than themselves, if being truly honest.

 

(and part of the problem I have with this site is he does whatever he wants without even thinking how people will react).

[Arella]

I have Alt Sweetlings and they are my pride and joy on this site. I will be deeply disappointed if I can't build Alt checkers with every predominantly red-colored dragon I like (and then some) anymore. So there go half of my plans for this holiday. I think it would be fantastic if Alts could breed true regardless of what scroll the offspring ended up on, because then you'd get more 2Gs and 3Gs and so on out there, and that would be marvelous.

 

As for the possibility of making Alts available for anyone -- now that all CB holidays are available, why not make the night-dropped CB Sweetlings black Alts? Or the first hour after midnight (in mirror of the glitch) or whatever? Then anyone who wants one could choose to get one.

[Natayah]

I appreciate talking about this and don't really have an opinion because I remember how often and long we talked about the possibility of getting "old prior CB Holidays" and I was against it for a long time. And this was bounced back and forth for years. And then it happened and I was beyond delighted. That said, the main reason I didn't want the ability for "others" to have what I had, or others older had wasn't based on me just being greedy. It was literally for trading and since I worked so hard on and for certain things, and I saw so many people who had more than I did, and I would not be able to get what they had, but at least new people wouldn't be able to get what I had and some older people or whatnot. It was because I felt my dragons had to have "commodity value" and if others were able to get that stuff easier, then.... I would not be able to have value and thus not get other stuff.

But after awhile I also began to see people freely helping and gifting away certain harder to find or more non common to not super rare but ... yah well you get the idea. Like CB Xenos and Coppers and stuff. But people will help. And people hunt and help others. And I also started noticing that certain things were also SUPER expensive due to the fact that like... as older players were retiring and taking their "never to be reissued" certain things, or rare prize list stuff, it became more clear, if something wasn't done, there would be a point where no one would be able to make ANY lineages that were able to be built cuz like.... there were so few and as people who had them stopped playing, it was actually hurting the game and lineages and the community. So I'm very super happy there is easier ways to get that stuff now, it still takes time, but it is more abundant because I always want people to have that "chance." And I know even if you don't believe you will be able to get that stuff, you will. But like, just try to be a nice person and be a bit involved with at least a few places in the "community" (forums, facebook, whatever groups form), and people will know you and find you and help you and or gift you things. Even expensive rare things. Because sometimes people really just like to gift to nice people cuz they don't have much desire to trade or whatnot anymore for various reasons.

I really wanted to hope to get more involved. And that might be a thing at some point in the time to come. My job is a bit lower staffed on some of the days I work so I pull a lot more than I think, I am being all healthier and more exercise and stuff cuz like, oh I got to not yet middle age but I can see that coming!!!

But.... I would be honest, while this should be a topic people should feel free to share their opinions, just keep 3 things in mind. 1. Sometimes things happen, they can happen all of a sudden overnight out of nowhere and sometimes it takes years. 2. Sometimes due to whatever reason (TJ and/or Dragon Spriter/Creator feel very strongly *AGAINST* something) it ain't ever gonna happen, or at least not anytime soon. Respect that although it is ok to still talk about it if you feel you have something to contribute. And things do change over time, including community feelings and attitudes, even including those of TJ and said Spriters and/or Creators which brings me to 3. Some things that will *NEVER* change actually do one day, either due to change of mind/heart, adjusting whatevers, or perhaps a better or interesting compromise or interesting take on it.

So just... I think it is bad to complain how long something is taken. I think it is bad to tell someone they do or do not have a right to do or fell whatever. And it is also bad to repeatedly talk about how great you are and how much you do XYZ and no one appreciates it and when will they just learn you know all the answers and you have great ideas but this game is dumb and... you get the idea. If you are going to resay it again and again and again, could maybe rephrase it, be positive, and maybe change perspective and/or think of some variations. Even if you think the same.

I am very glad to have some CB Sweetlings and CB other V-Days and Xmas stuffs and Halloween stuffs and cannot wait to do more with them. Even at the expense of maybe missing out on some of the other lines cuz like.... things change, and some things don't, but everything evolves. And people you have today you may or may not have in the future. So appreciate the people you have now, the people you will have to come, and just be kind to each other and don't get too stuck in your own thoughts. If a discussion drives you insane or you feel that you must passionately post about everything... you may have a good idea, but you may be a bit too invested. So this is a great hobby, but there are other good hobbies to have and love too. And this is great to be your great awesome hobby if you are going to awesome wonderful positive things. But it is ok to move on too. Just appreciate people cuz people are people. But they are rarely "Evil AI that steals all your best eggs and does other mean things" cuz they usually don't type in the forums. At least not yet. For now you have this bastion at least. Come play on the forums and have fun. The forums is the place that makes DC a lot more than just grab eggs collection game. And its ok if not. But usually, Forums and other places make it so much more fun cuz it is more about people than just pixels!

[Dragon_Arbock]

10 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

NOTHING is going to reach all users. Nothing will even hit MOST users. There was an in cave poll about something when I first joined - as I recall, it was a total flop and resulted in - no more site wide polls.

 

It'll reach more than the same 20 or so users who can be bothered to read the suggestions and request form (and of course, there were a lot less users in general back then).

 

But yeah, he just responded to another thread an hour or two ago. I find it odd what he does and doesn't make time for. It feels like he's avoiding making any sort of decision and hoping if he says nothing the problem will go away. (I say that because he will jump right on fixing little technical things, even if they're not vital to function, but won't comment on something like this, or unfreezing, or trader's canyon).

 

I do like the idea of releasing them on S.A.D. I had already had the idea for them to be two separate breeds that could breed each other, like Luminas/Dark Luminas, but I assumed just to throw them into the Valentines biome.

[Amaterasu-sama]

I support or don't mind if:

✓ everyone gets access to sweetlings in some way that DOES NOT involve being dependant on existing alt owners (don't want prize 2.0 situation after the market finally resolved in years)

✓ People get one color per scroll, alt owners get to keep their color and others get to keep the pink ones

 

I do not support:

✘ One scroll getting both colors, that is too unfair to all other users on top of restricting alts in first place

✘ Making alts available to others in a way that the only source to obtain them is to have an original owner breed for them. As I said, do not want a prize 2.0 cash cow situation. I don't care what people get in their trades, my issue is that I shouldn't have to depend on other users instead of the site (cave) itself to collect all types of dragons, at least in theory. 

[Tiki G]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, trying to figure out what would actually be the best solution, why this method was chosen, etc. And really, I think if the ultimate goal is to "retire" alt sweets, the current method is actually the best solution. For now.

 

There are only a few dozen alt sweetling owners out there, and the amount of active owners will just continue to dwindle down to a handful. We can only continue our lines so far until eventually, there's just no more CB's to contribute to the line. We can only go so many generations until ultimately we are forced to abandon it and start something else. And, eventually, that something else will have to be Pink sweets.

 

So again, if the goal is to retire them, and giving them a proper release or making them widely available to all players is absolutely not an option... As much as i hate to say it, i think a good solution is to leave them as-is for now, this year, and "retire" them next year. The method i think i would prefer (well i guess i wouldnt say prefer, but would probably be the most "fair" for everyone) would be to officially retire them. Make them unbreedable (though i would rather to continue to be able to breed them and just make it so they can never breed sweetlings again), remove them from the limits, and allow alt owners to start over and grab regular CB sweets. Let us keep our boys as "trophies", and let us move on.

 

Retiring them this year, with no warning or real explanation was a bad idea. I think we could all agree to that... even TJ considering he changed it. But i think if we at least knew it was happening, given enough time, it would be a little easier to deal with.

 

I love my alt boys. Alt sweets are my favorite dragons of all time. And i would hate to see them become unbreedable. But... Like i said, if making them available to everyone is out of the question, then eventually the lack of CB owners will become an issue, finding mates will become impossible, and they will just fade out on their own anyway.

 

I dunno... This is the only way i can think to end this all. *shrug*