Remove drake breeding

[Paradisiske]

Interesting that you mention that. Just thought I would share this quote. I doubt TJ's gonna change this after so many years of interbreeding, but if he could go back in time and change it, he might. =p

but why would he just remove drakes then? i rather he removed all of the breeding groups into their own little bubbles instead of just one at the beginning

 

 

as it is now i dont see any point game wise to having drakes being restricted

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, as one who DOES breed drake lineages,

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/JEerm

 

I would mind quite a lot

 

And also if pygmies were changed. What's wrong with a few interesting restrictions ? Not everything has to have what you would see as a "point".

[Fiona]

but why would he just remove drakes then? i rather he removed all of the breeding groups into their own little bubbles instead of just one at the beginning

 

 

as it is now i dont see any point game wise to having drakes being restricted

Because drakes were concepted from the start as a separate breeding group, just as pygmies and two-heads were. The whole Ochredrake concept has them as not-quite-dragons - as a separate group. He accepted the concept, the lore, for release. Since he accepted the lore and added it to the game it becomes canon. Therefore, in DC, drakes are smallish, less intelligent creatures that are close kin to dragons but not quite equal. The sprite sizes and concept restrictions were chosen with the release of Ochredrakes.

 

When DC started there was one breeding group - dragons. They weren't all the same body type. Then two-heads were released, adding them as a separate breeding group. Some time later Pygmies were released. That made three breeding "groups" - or rather, one breeding group and two breeds that bred only with themselves. Interestingly, for some time after Pumpkins were released they did not breed with Pygmies. They did not breed at all. Then it was decided by TJ and Marrionetta that they could and TJ changed it.

 

Ochredrakes were some time after Pygmies. They were a concept by Dovealove, one of the early DC sprite artists. She's since left us, but her art is quite prevalent in the game still. And she envisioned the whole breeding group of drakes as a separate thing from the dragon breeding group. She had a number of other drake breeds planned but left us before she got them done. So, we have her original drake concept and the concept of the separate breeding group as a whole.

 

Now, are you going to destroy some of Dovealove's concept? Are you going to tell TJ he was wrong to accept the concept behind the breeding group? Are you going to take away diversity from the game, essentially flattening game play? That's what removing drakes as a separate breeding group would do.

[olympe]

Fuzz, this suggestion isn't about removing drakes or their ability to breed, it's about incorporating the drakes into the regular dragon breeding group. Which means that you'd still be able to breed your Glaucus x Day Glory line.

[Paradisiske]

Because drakes were concepted from the start as a separate breeding group, just as pygmies and two-heads were. The whole Ochredrake concept has them as not-quite-dragons - as a separate group. He accepted the concept, the lore, for release. Since he accepted the lore and added it to the game it becomes canon. Therefore, in DC, drakes are smallish, less intelligent creatures that are close kin to dragons but not quite equal. The sprite sizes and concept restrictions were chosen with the release of Ochredrakes.

 

When DC started there was one breeding group - dragons. They weren't all the same body type. Then two-heads were released, adding them as a separate breeding group. Some time later Pygmies were released. That made three breeding "groups" - or rather, one breeding group and two breeds that bred only with themselves. Interestingly, for some time after Pumpkins were released they did not breed with Pygmies. They did not breed at all. Then it was decided by TJ and Marrionetta that they could and TJ changed it.

 

Ochredrakes were some time after Pygmies. They were a concept by Dovealove, one of the early DC sprite artists. She's since left us, but her art is quite prevalent in the game still. And she envisioned the whole breeding group of drakes as a separate thing from the dragon breeding group. She had a number of other drake breeds planned but left us before she got them done. So, we have her original drake concept and the concept of the separate breeding group as a whole.

 

Now, are you going to destroy some of Dovealove's concept? Are you going to tell TJ he was wrong to accept the concept behind the breeding group? Are you going to take away diversity from the game, essentially flattening game play? That's what removing drakes as a separate breeding group would do.

I am merely stating my opinion over this and listing reasons as to why I feel the way I do. I do not appreciate being attacked like this. A concept isn't the same as a sprite and as you said dovealove is gone. So I don't understand why besides for her sprites and her art, why we still have to use the same concept for drakes that she came up with. Lore and canon things have changed in this game. The holiday limit of either cb or bred. Hollies now have both genders and mistletoes can be influenced to be both genders. I've been reading on the forums that the ap used to block the cave when it was full. We can now make zombies year round, and there are even new zombie sprites. And the lineage view now has a ruler. My point is that things have changed and will change in this game.

 

No I'm not saying tj was wrong to accept the concept when dove presented it to him. What I'm saying is that maybe we could change it as years have gone by and there are very very little drakes incave or on the completed list making breeding them for a lot of people not very fun. Diversity is fun when it's not limiting.

[Fuzzbucket]

Fuzz, this suggestion isn't about removing drakes or their ability to breed, it's about incorporating the drakes into the regular dragon breeding group. Which means that you'd still be able to breed your Glaucus x Day Glory line.

I know - but at the moment it's more specialler

 

Also what Fi said - that was what I wanted to say but I couldn't find the right words. She's SO clever And was absolutely not attacking anyone - just explaining how it all came to be.

Edited September 7, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[olympe]

1) Now, are you going to destroy some of Dovealove's concept?

2) Are you going to tell TJ he was wrong to accept the concept behind the breeding group?

3) Are you going to take away diversity from the game, essentially flattening game play?

4) That's what removing drakes as a separate breeding group would do.

1) Who cares? Definitely not Dovealove, since she is most assuredly done with DC.

2) Nobody is doing that, exactly. We're just reviewing whether this is still feasible. And, truth to be told, this breeding group feels rather arbitrary as the sprites could pass for regular dragons, merely the lore behind it is different.

3) Right now, the drake breeding group is very flat and mostly boring for breeders: Mostly boring colors (brown, dull green, almost-black) with only very few exceptions, very little choice in the breed of the mate. Adding drakes to the general dragon breeding group will add variety to the choice of mates. Adding more options sure isn't the same as "flattening gameplay", is it?

4) That's debatable.

[cyradis4]

1) Who cares? Definitely not Dovealove, since she is most assuredly done with DC.

2) Nobody is doing that, exactly. We're just reviewing whether this is still feasible. And, truth to be told, this breeding group feels rather arbitrary as the sprites could pass for regular dragons, merely the lore behind it is different.

3) Right now, the drake breeding group is very flat and mostly boring for breeders: Mostly boring colors (brown, dull green, almost-black) with only very few exceptions, very little choice in the breed of the mate. Adding drakes to the general dragon breeding group will add variety to the choice of mates. Adding more options sure isn't the same as "flattening gameplay", is it?

4) That's debatable.

More or less these answers.

 

I'd support Drakes having a lesser chance of breeding (higher refusal rate, higher no egg rate) when bred to regular dragons, but they are so similar that I'd like to have them breed with regular dragons.

 

Most people will say that Horse x Donkey is sterile. Those who know... know that 99.9% of the time that's correct.... but very very occasionally, you get a fertile female. The article on Wikipedia has some very interesting information about it, most of the way down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

 

Then there are the various species of Cichlids. They are scientifically distinct species.... with often strong differences, but they can inter-breed with fertile results. The species are more closely related than the horse and donkey, and are pretty fertile. Mind, given a choice between their own species and the other species, they will choose their own. Hence why I'd suggest having a much higher refusal / no interest rate for Drake x Dragon.

 

But its obvious from how we breed dragons that they are pretty indiscriminate breeders, and usually breed how we want them to without much care. So I find it hard to believe that they'd care if their mate isn't the most intelligent.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[andromedae]

As a relatively new user, I agree with this suggestion entirely. Upon joining, I must admit I was rather confused as to why I couldn't breed my drakes to regular dragons, it only seemed logical at the time since they seem to have a similar size and style. It was only then when I figured that it wasn't possible in the game by reading their lore, which seemed to be a rather limiting aspect to the game. Since DC is after all, based on breeding and lineages, having drakes as their own group seems quite detrimental due to the fact that they are a small group with a lack of diversity in comparison to the main dragon breeding group. I'd likely change my mind if drakes were a very large group, but they are not, and henceforth lineage-creation options are relatively few. Changing the bit of lore that "limits" drakes breeding with dragons seems to be the simplest way to go. In any case, if one dislikes the idea of dragon and drake interbreeding, there's always the possibility of not breeding drakes and dragons together if one does not want to. I have always wanted to start a lineage with Glaucus Drakes and Blue Lunar Heralds, among others, so implementing this suggestion would be a dream come true. I'm sure that there are others who would also love to interbreed their drakes with dragons to create more beautiful new lineages. I honestly don't think there's really a downside to implementing this change other than some individuals being opposed to a greater breeding diversity due to the current lore and concept users have grown accustomed to.

Edited September 7, 2016 by andromedae

[Herk]

If we're only talking about "oh this would make a pretty lineage" and "who cares about lore anyway" and of course the old favourite "well I can find things in nature that work the way I want to" then why not have dragons randomly change sex?

 

I mean it does happen in nature (see Clownfish) and OMG I would SOOO want a male Red Nebula so I could do a black-based rainbow. I want to mix the fem Waterhorsie sprite with the fem Ridge too in fact there's a whole thread about "damn I wish this was possible".

 

I think "this has been this way forever" might not be the be-all-end-all argument but it's not "nothing" either. Drakes are a part of DC lore. They are different. And many of us have grown used and incorperated it into our view of how the DC world is supposed to be.

[andromedae]

I didn't mention that lore wasn't important, only that it could be changed for the general betterment of the site. In this case, only furthering breeding diversity. Drakes as a concept wouldn't entirely disappear, the only thing that would change would be their breeding mechanics and concept of intelligence so that they may interbreed with dragons.

[Herk]

Changing the lore SAYS it's not important.

 

The lack of intelligence is what makes Drakes. We could say Hellfires are suddenly pacifistic, patriarchic dragons. That would change the breed. It would make them something they weren't before. If we change and do away with this lore-bits on a whim, then why have them at all?

 

That IS a point that could be argued of course but for some of us it DOES matter. That's my point

[andromedae]

To each their own. Drakes aren't simply defined by lack of intelligence, they do have many different characteristics that are attributed to them. To say one particular trait makes or breaks something seems a bit arbitrary. They are of calm temperament, possess antlers, are unable to speak, are easier to train and are slightly smaller; among other things (Source: http://dragcave.wikia.com/wiki/Category:DC_Drakes). Change of a single trait doesn't particularly indicate that lore as a whole is not important. An example of lore being unimportant would be implementing this change whilst wiping out everything that differentiates drakes from dragons, making them one and the same just so that they may interbreed. Bits of lore are not changed on a whim, this suggestion was merely made because lore might be a limiting point when it comes to the game-play itself, by limiting breeding options. The example of changing something such as the character of hellfire dragons is not particularly relevant to these circumstances as that change would be of no use within itself, since it would not affect the mechanics of the game. This drake situation is different because this small bit of lore is restrictive in this sense and changing it could create a more diverse experience for DC users in terms of lineages.

Edited September 7, 2016 by andromedae

[Fiona]

Celly, that wasn't an attack. Certainly I have nothing personal against people suggesting they don't like the separate breeding group. However, I don't think changing the lore behind a breeding group is a good idea without something more firm than "I don't like it." which is what this suggestion seems to come down to. What people are suggesting by campaigning to change a significant mechanic is that it was a mistake. I don't agree.

 

olympe, Dove may not care anything about her concepts anymore but what about the people who've based concepts on that idea since? As someone who has made multiple concepts for DC the idea of people changing them to something other than what I envisioned irks me severely. I don't have a drake concept currently on the table but if I did I would flat out rather it never be released than have it messed with later.

 

I don't care what scientific stuff is trotted out to justify the idea. Drakes were concepted as a separate breeding group, with separate characteristics. No matter who first came up with the idea, whether here or not, it was accepted for release as part of the game. Changing that is a significant step and I don't think it's justified by the idea that a few users don't like it.

 

If drakes aren't diverse enough for lineage building the answer is to release more drakes, not to do away with the group.

[Imzadi]

Dove may not care anything about her concepts anymore but what about the people who've based concepts on that idea since? As someone who has made multiple concepts for DC the idea of people changing them to something other than what I envisioned irks me severely. I don't have a drake concept currently on the table but if I did I would flat out rather it never be released than have it messed with later.

 

I don't care what scientific stuff is trotted out to justify the idea. Drakes were concepted as a separate breeding group, with separate characteristics. No matter who first came up with the idea, whether here or not, it was accepted for release as part of the game. Changing that is a significant step and I don't think it's justified by the idea that a few users don't like it.

 

If drakes aren't diverse enough for lineage building the answer is to release more drakes, not to do away with the group.

I very much agree. I actually like having different breeding groups, ie pygmies and two heads as well as drakes. I'd be happier if there were more drakes and very happy if it was possible to breed good lineages (not getting the same egg all,the.time.) But that is another subject.

 

Maybe we need a couple of all drake releases.

[Fuzzbucket]

I very much agree. I actually like having different breeding groups, ie pygmies and two heads as well as drakes. I'd be happier if there were more drakes and very happy if it was possible to breed good lineages (not getting the same egg all,the.time.) But that is another subject.

 

Maybe we need a couple of all drake releases.

Ditto. And if drakes - why not pygmies ? (No, I am playing devil's advocate here - it would be just awful.)

[olympe]

I very much agree. I actually like having different breeding groups, ie pygmies and two heads as well as drakes. I'd be happier if there were more drakes and very happy if it was possible to breed good lineages (not getting the same egg all,the.time.) But that is another subject.

 

Maybe we need a couple of all drake releases.

No, please no! I'd rather have all-dragon releases because there's more that can be done with them.

 

Yes, I do collect pretty much everything - but for the stated reasons, the number of drakes and pygmies on my scroll is rather limited (save for dark myst, which are part of a holiday lineage I work on). And even two-headed dragons aren't that plentiful on my scroll due to the lack of variety.

[andromedae]

There's no real mention of this mechanic as a "mistake", simply because some individuals would like a change does not mean such situation is wrong, this is simply proposing an alternative that benefits the game in terms of expanding breeding options. The removal of drake breeding is just a suggestion to amplify the diversity of lineages, no more and no less, it's not about negativity towards a certain feature. Beyond a simple I don't like it, individuals which are in favor of this suggestion have a desire to experience greater options and diversity within the game. There is a reason that is clear: users would like to breed drakes with other species of the main dragon group to enjoy the the lineage creation mechanic with a wider range of options.

 

Implementing more drakes is a good idea, but it might take quite an extent of time before drakes reach a considerable diversity as a group in order for them to have lineage creation options as wide as the main dragon group.

 

In reference to other breeding groups being able to interbreed such as pygmies, the difference between pygmies and dragons is by far more significant than variations between drakes and dragons. An example would be that pygmies are diminutive, it's like comparing a dog to a mouse. Whereas the comparison for drakes and dragons in terms of size could be more like a fox and a dog.

Edited September 7, 2016 by andromedae

[Moonlight_Eevee]

No, please no! I'd rather have all-dragon releases because there's more that can be done with them.

 

Yes, I do collect pretty much everything - but for the stated reasons, the number of drakes and pygmies on my scroll is rather limited (save for dark myst, which are part of a holiday lineage I work on). And even two-headed dragons aren't that plentiful on my scroll due to the lack of variety.

but then that wouldn't be fair to the people who like pygmies, 2-heads, and drakes. If we had all dragon releases, then it'd suck the fun out for them.

 

Maybe if we got more submissions in for these type of dragons instead of the more popular dragon, then we wouldn't be having this problem and this conversation.

[Tango]

Maybe if we got more submissions in for these type of dragons instead of the more popular dragon, then we wouldn't be having this problem and this conversation.

This is just part of the cycle. Nobody wants to make drakes because they're so limiting in terms of design, they're not loved much and their lineage options are so limited. I think pygmies will always be popular and two headeds do have a big design change that's fun to work with. You would need a lot more drakes (Enough to take up many drake only releases) for the lineages to have options, and even then drakes still make very little sense as a species compared to dragons.

 

And I like releases that have pygmies and two headed dragons with regular dragons, but drakes are always a disappointment for me.

[cyradis4]

Pygmies are popular because they are small and (almost all) are cute (and they have a Halloween breed). Two heads, don't get much love but then they are a very clearly physically different from the normal breeding groups while still have a vast variety of body forms. Drakes aren't distinct and all look very similar to each other (and many other breeds on site).

 

And yes, it is a vicious cycle with Drakes: not enough Drakes -> boring lineages -> so not worked with -> so no one makes concepts for them -> so none to release. Also the body plan of the Drakes is so limiting that its all variations on a basic theme. Why do that, when you can do a regular dragon, or Pygmy, or Two-head, with *any* body plan.... so long as its small (for pygmy) or has two heads (for Two-heads)?

 

Having said that, here's a few ideas I'd put forth:

 

 

- Make Drakes have a limited Fertility with Dragons: this greatly expands the breeding group while keeping Drakes distinct. Something like 50% of pairings refuse and many show no-interest as a general course. So its still far better to breed Drake to Drake, but those who want to work with Drakes in more diverse lineages can.

 

- Give a huge release of just Drakes in ONE month: say 15. But keep regular releases going at the normal rate. Get the base population of breeds up high enough for good diversity, and see where that goes. But release so many that people are forced to take their time, and state upfront that all of them will be common (if they are all common) to prevent panic grabbing. Then do the same with Pygmies and Two-Heads. People will belly-ach, whine, scream, and throw tantrums, but it'll also keep them focused on grabbing for quite a while! It'll be like when we were all new users, so much to grab! (yes it would be a royal pain, but its the only way I can think of to solve the "no diversity" issue while keeping regular dragons coming). And really..... the crying will die down in a month or two as people start to catch up on all the breeds. If you pair it with something like the Time-Based Egg Slot, then there might not be nearly as much complaining.

 

I understand what Fiona is saying, but I have never liked the Drake breeding group, and haven't from Day 1. This isn't a new thing.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[silver_tiger]

Having said that, here's a few ideas I'd put forth:

 

 

- Make Drakes have a limited Fertility with Dragons: this greatly expands the breeding group while keeping Drakes distinct. Something like 50% of pairings refuse and many show no-interest as a general course. So its still far better to breed Drake to Drake, but those who want to work with Drakes in more diverse lineages can.

 

- Give a huge release of just Drakes in ONE month: say 15. But keep regular releases going at the normal rate. Get the base population of breeds up high enough for good diversity, and see where that goes. But release so many that people are forced to take their time, and state upfront that all of them will be common (if they are all common) to prevent panic grabbing. Then do the same with Pygmies and Two-Heads. People will belly-ach, whine, scream, and throw tantrums, but it'll also keep them focused on grabbing for quite a while! It'll be like when we were all new users, so much to grab! (yes it would be a royal pain, but its the only way I can think of to solve the "no diversity" issue while keeping regular dragons coming). And really..... the crying will die down in a month or two as people start to catch up on all the breeds. If you pair it with something like the Time-Based Egg Slot, then there might not be nearly as much complaining.

 

I understand what Fiona is saying, but I have never liked the Drake breeding group, and haven't from Day 1. This isn't a new thing.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I love both these ideas! And for the second idea, for the Drakes as well as the Pygmies and the Two-headeds. Because you're right, Pygmies and Two-headeds have unique things that make some people want to collect more of them, but just like Drakes they have a very limited number of breeding options. I mean, we have less than 10 distinct species in each of these sub-groups, that's ridiculous. No wonder people are frustrated.

 

Giving us a buttload of Pygmies, Drakes, and Two-headeds all at once will do a lot to expand the popularity of these groups, though the next obstacle then becomes designing them, of course.

 

One of the biggest complaints I see around here is having nothing to do in between releases. A massive release of mostly common dragons would fix that for a while...

Edited September 7, 2016 by silver_chan

[Moonlight_Eevee]

This is just part of the cycle. Nobody wants to make drakes because they're so limiting in terms of design, they're not loved much and their lineage options are so limited. I think pygmies will always be popular and two headeds do have a big design change that's fun to work with. You would need a lot more drakes (Enough to take up many drake only releases) for the lineages to have options, and even then drakes still make very little sense as a species compared to dragons.

 

And I like releases that have pygmies and two headed dragons with regular dragons, but drakes are always a disappointment for me.

I'm planning to do something with a drake one day, I already have two dragons up on the suggestions board, but as soon as one of them are done, I plan on making a drake. However, I don't think I will IF this is implemented

[Kovia]

So... am I in the minority for actually liking Drakes? The Glories and Glaucuses are gorgeous, and the recently released Morphos and Tarantulas aren't bad.

 

The only thing "limiting" Drake designs is that they have to have antlers and a certain wing structure. That's really not that limiting. People just tend to default to "let's just call it a dragon."

 

 

I definitely feel like TJ wants to make Drakes more different with the recent egg change, so I don't really see this happening. Drakes have a lot of lore to them and it'd be hard to justify them suddenly being able to breed with dragons they couldn't before.

[Tango]

So... am I in the minority for actually liking Drakes? The Glories and Glaucuses are gorgeous, and the recently released Morphos and Tarantulas aren't bad.

 

The only thing "limiting" Drake designs is that they have to have antlers and a certain wing structure. That's really not that limiting. People just tend to default to "let's just call it a dragon."

 

 

I definitely feel like TJ wants to make Drakes more different with the recent egg change, so I don't really see this happening. Drakes have a lot of lore to them and it'd be hard to justify them suddenly being able to breed with dragons they couldn't before.

I do like drakes, I'd like them even more if I could use them in lineages!

 

Drakes are reeeally limited. Dragons can be four legged, wyverns, wyrms, easterns, wingless drakes and amphipteres. Drakes have to have four legs and wings. They also can't have feathered wings, or any other wing type than fingerless bat wings.

 

The limits of dragon are: Have to look draconic (lots of wiggle room, look at waterhorses!)

The limits of pygmies are: Have to be under a certain size

The limits of two headeds are: Have to have two heads

 

Drakes can only have one bodytype, really is the biggest part of a dragons design. Also, both of the drakes most prominent features (The wings and antlers) can be found in regular dragons too so they're not even exclusive.

 

Also, I believe the only official lore (In cave) that would need to be changed would be the orchedrakes description and maybe the night glory 'mistaken for bats'.