Remove drake breeding

[Amberfly]

I understand people wanting to do more with their drakes in lineages, but I'm not in favor of this. I would rather see more drakes released, and I've been clamoring for a holiday drake for ages (and I know I'm not the only one).

[pederino]

I am for the DC drakes to become one, either with the pygmyes (something that will benefit both groups, though probably not possible because of the great spotted drake) or with "normal" dragons (probably more fitting).

There are almost the same amount of DC drakes (around 6), pygmies (around 7), and two-headed (around 6); yet DC drakes are the least loved of them all. This may be because they dont really have a very special or distinguishable feature, as pygmyes are also kind of dumb and small, making them a special kind of pygmy. Also for the very dark and earthly colors they often possess, having only dark or ligth brown, dark green, black, bright-yellow and a weirdly cyan; while two-heads have light blue, navy blue, olive green, black, red, purple and a weird combo of purple-red with the duotone, and pygmyes have yellow, light green, blue, red, black, mint green, silver-blue and orange.

What should be done, IMO, is dividing breeding groups into 3 groups:

• Two-headed dragons.
• Normal dragons (adding the DC drakes).
• Pygmy dragons.

This way pygmies and two-heades can "catch-up" with normal dragons "faster", because for every DC drake created there now would be a pygmy or two-headed, instead. Edited February 25, 2016 by pederino

[Obscure_Trash]

I never understood why two-heads couldn't breed with the "regular" dragons.

Not actually against this either, but if I had to choose, I would prefer drakes be added to the dragon breeding group over 2heads.

 

This way pygmies and two-heades can "catch-up" with normal dragons "faster", because for every DC drake created there now would be a pygmy or two-headed, instead.

 

Exactly this. There's just a lot of neglected breeding groups right now, and drakes are kind of the oddballs due to their more specific requirements. o.o

[skwerl56767]

I don't have any solid evidence of this yet, but I'm recalling that drakes are actually the creation of one of the artists on for the site (I'm tempted to say Dovealove?). So, I have a feeling that the breeding group is entirely intentional, so changing or removing the group entirely is just not going to happen. That's why I believe it would be easier to simply add more drakes to the game; if you want something to be interesting, make it interesting! Changing the in-game mechanic I don't think will help, unless you're a breeder and you want to make more diverse lineages with drakes; I'm not interested in drakes, and I'm not a breeder, so making drakes compatible with any other breeding group wouldn't elevate my interest at all. I can't imagine that I'm the only one who thinks this. Yes, certain breeding groups may never have a place in holidays (since people want to be able to make holiday lineages), but otherwise there isn't a good reason for not making drakes other than not wanting to make drakes.

So maybe we change the breeding mechanic to allow drakes to breed with dragons (even though that messes up the lore, and having incorrect lore is almost worse than having no lore at all); but this doesn't change the fact that we still only have 6 DC drakes. And if someone wants to breed two drakes together, they're still stuck with only 6 options. It's not really like anything has changed...

 

One thing I could be for is making the category of DC drakes less specific; say, remove the requirement of thumbs or only one wing finger, should the creator of drakes be okay with it. That way people can be more flexible with drake DRs, which allows them to create unique drakes, which can spur interest in the breeding group overall.

[Obscure_Trash]

I don't have any solid evidence of this yet, but I'm recalling that drakes are actually the creation of one of the artists on for the site (I'm tempted to say Dovealove?).

Yes, it was Dovealove. However, I don't see how this precludes the possibility of changing their breeding mechanics, especially as Dove has been gone for years and is no longer available to discuss these things with and a lot of changes have been made to DC.

 

Dove's original idea was actually a set of "ochre drakes" - ie dull, earthy colors only. Not just the one ochredrake released. From my understanding, all drakes were supposed to be subsets of her original ochre variety. And yet we have the shimmery glories and bright glaucus. As well, we have discussed changing their required characteristics in another thread here.

 

So just because they were made one way by one artist doesn't mean they can't evolve and their mechanics can't change.

 

(Do I personally find it likely? No. But it's hard to tell people's opinions when they try to guess what will happen rather than sharing what they'd like to see or would be okay with seeing change. ^^;; )

[SheridanCharon]

When I initially read the title, I was extremely sceptical.

 

But as I've thought about it more, I'm starting to see why it would be a good idea. Up until Jolly Follies, it had always confused me as to why Drakes are a separate breeding group when they seem so similar to normal dragons, and if size was the issue, why can't they breed with pygmies? And there's no really much about their size. I honestly thought Glaucus and Forest Drakes were BIG dragons.

 

It was only after playing Jolly Follies, with the "particularly stupid badgers" (I love that description, Odeen ) that I realized that differences in intelligence was also a key factor. Which also seems kinda strange to me, when the descriptions of some "normal" dragons suggest they're not exactly what you call intelligent.

 

The biggest problem, though, is the cycle that Sockpuppet mentioned; it's all about supply and demand, and because there's no demand for Drakes (If I remember correctly, there was quite a lot of complaints when the Forest Drake, Hooktalon and Magelight were released because they weren't "normal" dragons) that means there's no supply. While making more drakes would help IMMENSELY, unfortunately you would need to release a number of new Drakes to give people a reason to collect them, at least a dozen. Perhaps even a Holiday breed or two (After all, the Nightglory info says it's often mistaken for a bat, so why not a Bat-based Drake for Halloween? Or a Cupid-based one for Valentine's?) Though again, this leads to another problem; getting people actually willing to request and design the Drakes in the first place.

 

As several others have mentioned, the two factors, size and intelligence, have one instance each, so in theory, retconning wouldn't be too hard. Even if it's just opened up to breeding with pygmies, I think it could help the popularity of Drakes quite a lot. The biggest problem will be with the coding (Datamonster attack potential there) and the lore, so those would need to be worked with.

 

So while I think this is a good idea, I think it might be better to attempt a middle ground, perhaps including Drakes into pygmies or adding several new breeds.

(ALL of this post could be applied to Two-headeds, too, since they're in a very similar situation. Though with them, I prefer the idea of adding new dragons, not removing the breeding group. Imagine a Jekyll-and-Hyde based Two-head for Halloween.)

Edited February 25, 2016 by CharonDusk

[olympe]

That's why I believe it would be easier to simply add more drakes to the game; if you want something to be interesting, make it interesting!

Great idea, let's add the nine drakes on the completed list to the site, and then what? There'd still be little variety, especially in colors.

 

Besides, that would still leave us with the same problem for pygmies and 2-heads, which need the same kind of attention as drakes. In order to give them that, we'd need about two years worth of releases that don't contain a single regular dragon, if not three. Can you imagine what that would do to the site, not to mention the player base? I know I'd lose hope over that time that I'd ever get another "true" dragon to work with. Not to mention that this "adding more breeds" would take a long time before it had a noticeable effect.

 

Changing the in-game mechanic I don't think will help, unless you're a breeder and you want to make more diverse lineages with drakes *snip*

Considering that breeding has become a major part of gameplay for a large part of the user group, it probably will help tremendously.

 

but otherwise there isn't a good reason for not making drakes other than not wanting to make drakes.

There are several, actually. How many artists want to work hard on making something they know won't be loved much just because it belongs to the wrong breeding group? Why would someone want to work with a very restricted breeding group if they could use the much more diverse dragon breeding group? And why would they want to make another drake that has a very low chance of ever being released because drakes aren't exactly the most beloved things on DC?

 

So maybe we change the breeding mechanic to allow drakes to breed with dragons *snip*; but this doesn't change the fact that we still only have 6 DC drakes. And if someone wants to breed two drakes together, they're still stuck with only 6 options. It's not really like anything has changed...

Actually, it changes a lot. Because you can now breed your DC drakes with non-drakes, or with what some people refer to as "standard drakes" (meaning wingless quadrupedal dragons like magmas or sweetlings).

[Ruby Eyes]

In order to give them that, we'd need about two years worth of releases that don't contain a single regular dragon, if not three.

Um, why not? Why would that need to be exclusive? With regards to that overabundance of completed dragon requests, people have been calling for more releases rather often, so why not release more than 1 breed at a time? Personally, I like the idea of pairing each regular dragon release with one from the other 3 groups. Granted, that makes on average 2 of each per year (not counting multi-releases like Xenos, Pyralspites, 2-headed Lindwurms), but are we really in such a hurry? I'd prefer if DC continues growing in the same steady pace that it had up to now ...

[olympe]

Because if we don't get the exclusive D2P-releases for several years, these groups will stay too small to be interesting for the next decade or so.

[Dewdropmon]

I'd personally love to be able to breed Sweetlings with Night Glory Drakes. I think that would look as gorgeous as my Sweetling X Nhiostrife lineage. It'd also be nice to breed Sweetlings and Rosebuds with Glaucus Drakes.

 

If the drakes really must remain a separate breeding group then I'd really like to see a male chocolate-themed drake that looks good with female Glaucus drakes for a Valentine release.

[Fuzzbucket]

Because if we don't get the exclusive D2P-releases for several years, these groups will stay too small to be interesting for the next decade or so.

Who says it isn't interesting ?

 

Even something as simple as this is pretty - and surprisingly hard work !

 

I'm working on others but have been sidetracked by stripes and pygmies....

[Carmelita-Fox]

I definitely like this suggestion. Speaking as someone who is on DC mainly for the breeding, I have zero interest in drakes. I get a few CBs, shove them to the bottom of my scroll and forget about them. People are saying there are six different drakes? I can't even think of what they are, I tried listing them. That's how little of an impact they have on me. And it's not that the sprites are unappealing; I love the glories. It's just working with them is so boring. I attempted an even gen with glories. I got bored and gave up. That's the last I've ever attempted to breed them.

 

I got very disappointed at Halloween. I spend a half hour pairing up my graves with everything trying to find something to breed them with. I picked my favorite, and to my complete disappointment, it was impossible. I'd picked howlers.

 

Adding breeds would help over a long period of time, but like Socky said, people don't like them so people don't make them. This seems a good alternative.

[Darth Krande]

I think it's like with dogs and cats. There are many breeds of dogs with very huge (size) differences and genetically those still are dogs and can breed. While cats, even if some dogs are the same size as them, would hardly ever successfully breed with dogs. Because that's how biology currently has it.

[Kovia]

Agreeing with a lot of previous comments in that, from an RP/biological standpoint, it should be left how it is. I've always liked having the different breeding groups we have. There's another dragon site I forget the name of where you can breed a fox with a dragon which is just really REALLY silly when you stop to think about it.

 

If we really want to increase the popularity of drakes, I say let's just have a big ol' drake release. There's definitely enough of the things hanging out over with the dragon suggestions.

[Tango]

I feel like every suggestion here that hasn't been in favour of opening up the breeding pools has completely ignored the negative feedback loop drakes are stuck in. Maybe some people don't care, leave drakes as they are it doesn't matter to them but this is a suggestion forum for making DC better.

 

We cannot just release a bunch of new drakes because there are hardly any that have been sprited, why would anyone when by tweaking a few characteristics they can be a regular dragon and be much more popular and have more options. Even if a bunch of drakes were sprited and released there would be a lot of negative feedback and drama because no one likes drakes as they are! You'd need about 30 more to make drakes somewhat viable. At least.

[AGYK]

You'd need about 30 more to make drakes somewhat viable. At least.

I have to disagree. There are only 8 pygmy breeds and they're doing just fine. Colors and poses are important for lineage-building, and right now pygmies have those and drakes don't. If we filled the holes in the drake lineup, I think we'd be okay.

[lanette]

I would love to see drakes being able to breed with regular dragons. 2 of my favorite sprites are Day Glories and Ochredrakes, and I'm bummed that I can't breed them with any of my other favorite sprites.

 

 

[olympe]

Agreeing with a lot of previous comments in that, from an RP/biological standpoint, it should be left how it is. *snip*

 

If we really want to increase the popularity of drakes, I say let's just have a big ol' drake release. There's definitely enough of the things hanging out over with the dragon suggestions.

First of all, there are less than a dozen drake concepts on the completed list. I counted nine, but might have missed some.

 

Now, about that RP/biological standpoint...

 

Deep Sea dragons shouldn't be able to breed with anything that's not aquatic because they'd never be able to meet. After all, Deep Seas live in the deepest depths of the oceans.

Wyrms and Western dragons (for example) should never be able to breed because they're just too different, biolgy-wise.

Magma and Ice dragons shouldn't be able to breed because they would need to stay far away from each other for obvious reasons.

As a matter of fact, most dragons breeds shouldn't be able to breed outside their very own breed.

 

Obviously, neither biology nor RP have any bearing on dragon breeding, so maybe we should leave both of them out of the discussion since they don't apply to Valkemare.

 

 

[Kovia]

First of all, there are less than a dozen drake concepts on the completed list. I counted nine, but might have missed some.

 

Now, about that RP/biological standpoint...

 

Deep Sea dragons shouldn't be able to breed with anything that's not aquatic because they'd never be able to meet. After all, Deep Seas live in the deepest depths of the oceans.

Wyrms and Western dragons (for example) should never be able to breed because they're just too different, biolgy-wise.

Magma and Ice dragons shouldn't be able to breed because they would need to stay far away from each other for obvious reasons.

As a matter of fact, most dragons breeds shouldn't be able to breed outside their very own breed.

 

Obviously, neither biology nor RP have any bearing on dragon breeding, so maybe we should leave both of them out of the discussion since they don't apply to Valkemare.

So 9 isn't enough to release 4 or so? I think the largest release I've seen was a birthday one that released like 7.

 

The dragons we're breeding are domestic. Therefore, they behave much differently from wild ones. Wild dragons would probably only purebreed, but domestic ones could be made to interact with other species much more readily. Deep Seas are stated to surface during mating season, so a non-aquatic dragon could meet with one. An Ice dragon is not literally made out of ice, so while they likely wouldn't like fire dragons they could interact with one. Also, body-shape doesn't necessarily mean drastically different DNA, The only real difference between a wyrm and a normal dragon is lack of limbs, other than that they function exactly the same as far as internal organs and the like go.

[Tango]

So 9 isn't enough to release 4 or so? I think the largest release I've seen was a birthday one that released like 7.

 

The dragons we're breeding are domestic. Therefore, they behave much differently from wild ones. Wild dragons would probably only purebreed, but domestic ones could be made to interact with other species much more readily. Deep Seas are stated to surface during mating season, so a non-aquatic dragon could meet with one. An Ice dragon is not literally made out of ice, so while they likely wouldn't like fire dragons they could interact with one. Also, body-shape doesn't necessarily mean drastically different DNA, The only real difference between a wyrm and a normal dragon is lack of limbs, other than that they function exactly the same as far as internal organs and the like go.

Creatures with a different amount of limbs would probably have the most drastically different DNA. Unless all dragons evolved from a 6 limbed creature and any dragons with less limbs lost them?

[Holocast]

I personally wish I could breed Day Glory Drakes with other dragon types instead of being limited to only other drakes. So many gorgeous lineages could be made with them!

[olympe]

So 9 isn't enough to release 4 or so? I think the largest release I've seen was a birthday one that released like 7.

 

The dragons we're breeding are domestic. Therefore, they behave much differently from wild ones. Wild dragons would probably only purebreed, but domestic ones could be made to interact with other species much more readily. Deep Seas are stated to surface during mating season, so a non-aquatic dragon could meet with one. An Ice dragon is not literally made out of ice, so while they likely wouldn't like fire dragons they could interact with one. Also, body-shape doesn't necessarily mean drastically different DNA, The only real difference between a wyrm and a normal dragon is lack of limbs, other than that they function exactly the same as far as internal organs and the like go.

Four extras wouldn't do much difference. Not with the colors up for choice. (Even with all the nine breeds I found released, we'd still lack red, orange (save for one rare, female-only alt form), purple, teal and pink drakes. But we'd get several more greens, at least one yellow/amber one and some other stuff.

 

So, because our dragons are domestic, they can crossbreed despite being drastically different (biologically speaking). That's like you're saying that you can crossbreed domestic cats with domestic dogs - trust me, things don't work that way in RL.

 

And, whether you believe it or not, DNA is what makes our bodies turn out the way they do. (And not just that. As a matter of fact, it's astounding as to how far our genes control our tastes, feelings and psyche. But that's an entirely different matter.) It's in our genes to grow two legs on which we can walk, and two arms with dexterous hands attached. So, it would be the dragons' genes that make them grow whichever number of limbs, a slender or stocky body or even serpent-like long body.

 

Even if "all dragons are descended of a dragon with three pairs of limbs", losing limbs is a pretty big step, and it happens rather rarely in nature. (Yes, I know about whales losing their hind legs - mostly. I know about snakes, which evolved from lizard-like ancestors. And, yes, I know about moas which lost their (totally useless) wings. And, of course, fish - which have way more fins than some of them need. But overall, it's still a pretty rare occurence for groups of animals to lose limbs (unless they have limbs in abundance, like centipedes).

[skwerl56767]

Ah, thanks Sock! So I guess we could alter drakes, but I wouldn't know if Dovealove is actually inactive or not. She could just be active behind the scenes; I mean, I seem completely nonexistent on the Tales of Ostlea forums, but I do still chat with the staff in private forums and on Skype. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar situation there. Then again, I imagine someone like Sock would be involved in such chats, so maybe she really is inactive... but it still makes me question if we should change her drakes at all, especially since she's not here to know what's happening? Maybe I'm just being cautious...

 

And I think you guys missed my point. "Make it interesting" means "design more drakes". Obviously we would need more drakes to make the breed interesting. How do you make more drakes? Make more drake DRs, send private requests to TJ, create a demand for drakes. Once the demand is there then it won't be an issue; people will want to make drakes and as long as TJ is willing to release more of them, the breeding pool will expand. I would offer to make drake DRs right this second, but I already have two DRs and they would have to be finished first. Now granted, it will take years for the interest in drakes to build up, even it TJ flooded the cave with new drake breeds; but everything takes time with adoptable games. I've heard nightmare stories about dragons 5 years old on the Completed List never making it into the cave! But I don't let that bother me, so I don't see why time should be a huge concern for something like this either.

 

But now you guys are making it sound like drakes just aren't an interesting breed and that's why there's a problem. It's possible, but I don't understand what's so uninteresting about them? Is it the specific requirements for DC drakes that prevents people from making them? Is it the lore? It can't be the art, because Greater Spotteds have beautiful sprites... Does it just boil down to lineage-building, and you guys just want prettier, more interesting lineages with drakes in them, or is it something else I'm not understanding? If this is just a lineage issue than I might have to step out; I'm not a breeder, so I wouldn't understand the demands of the community there. Though, someone mentioned that there was a ruckus over the release of Greater Spotteds, Magelights and Hooktalons? I never caught wind of this... But if there will be complaints about prior releases of dragons in special breeding groups (which diversifies them), then I guess you guys wouldn't be satisfied by simply adding more dragons...? Huh, I really don't get that either. Make the special groups rival the main breeding group in size, and there shouldn't be any issues. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

In short I don't see how removing the drake breeding group would help anything-even regarding lineages-when we could just make more drakes and have new content at the same time. So maybe it will take a while, but it should be worth the wait.

[Vhale]

Logistically it does seem like it would be easier to remove their restrictions than get more of them released.

 

So /support

 

But I'd be happy either way.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Personally, I think we should keep the RP and science out of DC breeding completely, and stick strictly to the lore of Valdemere. That said, said lore could easily be changed to accomodate ANY type of breeding we could ask for. After all, it's all total FICTION.

 

Since Drakes have so few types available (released or completed), to me it makes more sense to add Drakes to the normal dragon breeding group. We could even keep calling them Drakes and continue to allow new Drake concepts as well. We have precedence after all.. Lindwurms, Wyverns, Amphitheres, etc. are all different concepts and all part of the normal breeding group.

 

Someone mentioned adding 2 heads to the normal dragon breeding group; I'm neutral on this. I believe 2 heads have a pretty good fanbase and there are a few group breeding projects using 2 heads as well. I'd really like to have more new 2 heads to expand those projects. But adding them to the normal dragon breeding group would do the same thing as new releases.. give them more options.

 

Pygmies on the other hand I think should remain their own separate breeding group. There are lots of pygmy concepts completed and in process.. plus a few dragons in the normal breeding group that could actually be redesignated as pygmies. Mints are the first breed that comes to mind and a few others are described as being very small as well.