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Remove drake breeding

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Allowing them to breed with the main group with a higher chance of refusal doesn't exactly solve one of the main problems with drakes: not being used for lineage projects. Refusals are the bane of lineage projects, so only the most determined lineage builder who has dreamed of drake x dragon lineages would use them.

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It would still be an improvement to the current situation, although very frustrating. The addition of smaller eggs for drakes could show that TJ wants to separate them even more, and that letting them breed between each other is even less likely but I still say - why not? I don't think just the eggs can distinguish an entire species, and if we do want to go by text lore then the eggs in the cave of regular dragons are already different sizes. Two headed dragons have the same egg as regular dragons, they ca't breed with them - why can't it work the opposite way?

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Keep in mind that the main reason for the different group is the intelligence difference. In breeding, TJ has compared it to a gorilla or a dog (drake) breeding with humans (dragons).

 

So the egg isn't the big reason I don't think this will happen. Only what the egg symbolizes: further obvious differentiation between drakes and dragons.

 

But if you guys want to continue with this, the only way it would happen would be to completely change the intelligence concept of drakes.

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Keep in mind that the main reason for the different group is the intelligence difference. In breeding, TJ has compared it to a gorilla or a dog (drake) breeding with humans (dragons).

 

So the egg isn't the big reason I don't think this will happen. Only what the egg symbolizes: further obvious differentiation between drakes and dragons.

 

But if you guys want to continue with this, the only way it would happen would be to completely change the intelligence concept of drakes.

well i dont really see an issue with changing the intelligence since its mainly just rp

 

some dogs are smaller than others but can still breed with each other

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The intelligence and size can both be changed with a slight text edit, the sprites are the biggest thing that can't be changed. And I think changing that piece of lore would be beneficial in the long run.

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But drakes aren't just less intelligent dragons, are they? They're dragonesque but not actually not dragons at all.

 

Not so much like "Look at all these different apes who can't interbreed, but all these different dragons can?", because in that comparison the drake would still be the spider monkey, not an ape. Not "Look at all these different-looking dogs that get it on just fine, so why not drakes too?", because drakes would be foxes (distantly related but definitely not dogs) or thylacines (looks like a dog, more like a possum) or Indonesian fruit bats (doggy face, batty everything else). They are pretty much breedable dinos: catchable in the Dragon Cave but not actually dragons.

 

So retconning them wouldn't be simply tweaking their intelligence, but chucking the dragonesque non-dragon concept whole cloth.

 

Yes, I know, lore is malleable, but previous changes fleshed out concepts and expanded world-building. This would eliminate a concept that makes sense (of course there would be dragonesque critters in a dragonny world), because "These 10 sprites would be prettier if I could pair them with those other sprites."

 

This kills me, because dangit, Greater Spotteds/Terrae and Night Glories/Chronowyrms would be so sweet, but I would rather changes to lore flesh the concept out and add to the drake pool than nix the concept entirely.

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But drakes aren't just less intelligent dragons, are they? They're dragonesque but not actually not dragons at all.

 

Not so much like "Look at all these different apes who can't interbreed, but all these different dragons can?", because in that comparison the drake would still be the spider monkey, not an ape. Not "Look at all these different-looking dogs that get it on just fine, so why not drakes too?", because drakes would be foxes (distantly related but definitely not dogs) or thylacines (looks like a dog, more like a possum) or Indonesian fruit bats (doggy face, batty everything else). They are pretty much breedable dinos: catchable in the Dragon Cave but not actually dragons.

 

So retconning them wouldn't be simply tweaking their intelligence, but chucking the dragonesque non-dragon concept whole cloth.

 

Yes, I know, lore is malleable, but previous changes fleshed out concepts and expanded world-building. This would eliminate a concept that makes sense (of course there would be dragonesque critters in a dragonny world), because "These 10 sprites would be prettier if I could pair them with those other sprites."

 

This kills me, because dangit, Greater Spotteds/Terrae and Night Glories/Chronowyrms would be so sweet, but I would rather changes to lore flesh the concept out and add to the drake pool than nix the concept entirely.

coyotes and dogs are able to breed just wanna say

 

 

but looking back at the wikia there have been some parts of this game that have been around for a long time that were changed for the benefit of the players like the holiday restrictions

 

there is no downside for letting drakes breed with other dragons

the only reason i have seen for keeping things the same is because of rp/lore which imo should not have a substantial influence on how players are allowed to play this game

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Canids are kinda unique in how easily they interbreed cross-species; most species have problems breeding with other, related species for any number of reasons and they almost never do so in the wild. Not to say that canids do so easily, but they have a much easier time of it than, say, equines. And even then, a dog can't breed with a fox; they're too different.

 

I'm not really for this with the current arguments. Yeah, there are drake sprites that would look great with normal dragon sprites... buuuut by that logic we should abolish breeding groups entirely; there are some really nice two-headed sprites limited by the small sprite pool as well.

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im fine with letting two headed breed with the other dragons as well if thats what it will come to. and equines are able to breed with each other case in point mules which are the offspring of a donkey and a horse and zorse which is the offspring of a zebra and a horse

 

plus lions and tigers are able to cross breed as well. now in real life all these hybrid offspring are sterile but not everything in this game needs to be realistic.

 

 

the only group i wouldnt like to see breed with other dragons are the pygmies seeing as how it would basically be the same as an elephant trying to breed with a cat.

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I also believe it's all the matter of tweaking the lore a tiny bit by removing the different type of intelligence aspect... this is all that makes the concept of them breeding to other dragons 'creepy' and the only reason to keep them separate. Otherwise they aren't different and the sprite's size is still like of regular dragons, so it's not even the size, which could easly be upped e.g. to this of a pony or horse.

They're fine as a sub-sub-type(though to me they're actually a normal western dragon just simply following one design or manner of one artist).

Dragon is the widest concept ever created by the mankind with such a wide range of variety it's just overwheliming. It's not just abotu the level of intelligence, kind of powers of lack of thereof or whatever... What makes a made-up creature a dragon is a somehow reptilian face, that's all that's required but still with exeption for easterns who can have e.g. canid faces... and ofc the fantasy aspect to it(it can't be any existent animal, just sth tweaked). Some people have certain proportions and anatomical sollutions preffered, or particular sets of decorations - DC drakes always felt like this to me. Like a very restricted style of making dragons with a chosen wing type and antlers instead of horns/hornless. The rest like e.g. the paw style is pretty unnoticeable from the sprites.

I do like the visuals of DC drakes but I'm not convinced they should be a separate breeding group, though I lost any hopes this'll change after I saw the new egg size, so, well.

And I mean it doesn't even affect me, I only breed pure anyway.

Edited by VixenDra

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So, what's wrong with adding two-headed dragons to the regular breeding group, too? As I stated before, they don't need their heads to make baby dragons. Maybe add a higher rate of refusals (due to whatever), but apart from that, there's no reason to forbid breeding between two-headeds and regular one-headed dragons.

 

That being said, we've had at least one situation where lore got changed which is also visible in the descriptions. I'm talking about purple dragons, which used to be a female-only breed.

It was previously believed that purple dragons were exclusively female, but this is not the case. Recent environmental shifts have revealed the existence of both genders of this breed. Female behavior is well known; they are primarily herbivores but will eat meat during mating season. On the other hand, very little is known about the behavior and habits of male purple dragons.

 

Doing the same for drakes could look like this:

It was previously believed that drakes were less intelligent like dragons and thus could not interbreed with them, but this is not the case. Recent studies showed that, despite their docile behaviour and short attention spans, drakes are just as intelligent as dragons. Rumor is that there have been sightings of drake-dragon crossbreeds in the wild.

 

And before you ask how someone with a short attention span can be as intelligent as someone with a "normal" attention span - there are people who have ADHD and who're still highly gifted.

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Or that DC drakes have tendency to 'play silly' to get more of the simple attention from their human owners (notice we all prefer babies - either human or animal, for how silly and cute acting they are). But in the wild they don't pretend like this and were recently discovered to fake being sillier than they are:P

 

As for 2 headeds it has sth to do with how dual/bipolar they can be and that the idea of 1 brian vs 2 brains(or even minds though it's not always the case so far) can feel as creepy as the idea of 'stupid' drake(ape) vs highly intelligent dragon(human) or a tiny pygmy vs Collosus... Also polycephalic feature is much more striking on the sprite than simply a different style of the DC drakes..

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Or that DC drakes have tendency to 'play silly' to get more of the simple attention from their human owners (notice we all prefer babies - either human or animal, for how silly and cute acting they are). But in the wild they don't pretend like this and were recently discovered to fake being sillier than they are:P

 

As for 2 headeds it has sth to do with how dual/bipolar they can be and that the idea of 1 brian vs 2 brains(or even minds though it's not always the case so far) can feel as creepy as the idea of 'stupid' drake(ape) vs highly intelligent dragon(human) or a tiny pygmy vs Collosus... Also polycephalic feature is much more striking on the sprite than simply a different style of the DC drakes..

Well, there were and are cases of human conjoined twins - some of them literally people with one body (two arms, two legs) but two heads. Not all of them died childless...

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Well, there were and are cases of human conjoined twins - some of them literally people with one body (two arms, two legs) but two heads. Not all of them died childless...

That's true irl BUT in DC two-headed doesn't mean conjoined twin.

Existent creatures don't inherit such a thing as a evolutionary trait, moreover, polycephaly is an undesired condition irl. In case of animals (humans are intelligent enough to cope fairly well, exept for relationships due to how complex human relationships are), polycephaly works like a serious disability e.g. a two-headed piglet could barely stand, two-headed snakes have tendencies to attack and attempting to kill the other head, also such animals' movement is zig-zaggy for two heads are fighting over body controll, and in general they have serious survival issues.

In DC you don't have cojnjoined twins, you have two headidness an inheritable trait that is always passed onto the offspring, unlike irl conjoined twins who, if survive long enough and are so lucky to mate they breed regular one headed offspring mostly.

 

Also some of DC two-headeds have zero self-identity on the heads and they function as a unit, like one persona - in opposite to conjoined twins who always are separate individuals no matter what(provided both heads are properly developped).

 

If you wanted conjoined twins in DC you'd probably have to make non-twin sprite too, which should be much more common than the twin one. At least, if you wanted to go fairly realistic.

 

While drakes are just... well, western dragons of a particular style. This makes quite a difference to two other breedign groups we have...

Edited by VixenDra

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My two cents, I like having drakes be their own breeding group because it adds a bit of depth and detail to DC. It's totally possible that drakes are dragon-like but not able to breed with dragons, and it helps give some defining characteristics/life to the game. It could even be something like the temperance difference strongly discourages it. Reading into cross-breeding lizards and birds, it is difficult to do and not common. You can't breed an eclectus and an african grey, or a macaw and a cockatoo, despite them all being parrots.

 

I think DC needs to go more in the direction of having more exclusive groups instead of less, because it makes things less monotonous/samey (or more realistic). I wouldn't like it as much if all the dragons except the pygmies were lumped into one breeding group.

 

 

Edited by High Lord November

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That's true irl BUT in DC two-headed doesn't mean conjoined twin.

Existent creatures don't inherit such a thing as a evolutionary trait, moreover, polycephaly is an undesired condition irl. In case of animals (humans are intelligent enough to cope fairly well, exept for relationships due to how complex human relationships are), polycephaly works like a serious disability e.g. a two-headed piglet could barely stand, two-headed snakes have tendencies to attack and attempting to kill the other head, also such animals' movement is zig-zaggy for two heads are fighting over body controll, and in general they have serious survival issues.

In DC you don't have cojnjoined twins, you have two headidness an inheritable trait that is always passed onto the offspring, unlike irl conjoined twins who, if survive long enough and are so lucky to mate they breed regular one headed offspring mostly.

 

Also some of DC two-headeds have zero self-identity on the heads and they function as a unit, like one persona - in opposite to conjoined twins who always are separate individuals no matter what(provided both heads are properly developped).

 

If you wanted conjoined twins in DC you'd probably have to make non-twin sprite too, which should be much more common than the twin one.

 

While drakes are just... well, western dragons of a particular style.

well regardless of two headed and how their heads cooperate and conjoined twins i firmly think that this game does not need a very strong sense of realism

 

this is a fantasy game where you can collect numerous dragons, breed them, kill them, name them, freeze them, neglect them and release them.

 

you can catch chickens and dinos too and even a leetle tree

 

there is no sense of realism there so i dont see the point of restricting breeding between drakes, two heads and regular dragons except for lore and rp which isnt a very good reason to me seeing as how lore and rp does not affect catching eggs raising them and ratios. all those are affected by players not the game itself.

 

now that doesnt mean i want realism gone all together. dinos shouldnt be able to breed same as chickens seeing as how this is a game focused around catching, collecting and breeding dragons. and pygmies shouldnt be able to breed with anything other than pygmies because even without lore and rp the sprite sizes are substantial enough to the naked eye that most people would immediatly think yeah that pygmy cant breed with a brute dragon. case in point chameleons. there are regular sized ones that get to the size of your arm when they grow up. and there are pygmy ones that barely grow larger than your finger at adult size. there is no way the pygmy chameleon will ever breed with the bigger chameleon.

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But drakes aren't just less intelligent dragons, are they? They're dragonesque but not actually not dragons at all.

 

What exactly makes them not dragons? Dragons has a very broad and vague definition on DC. Wyrms are dragons. Wyverns are dragons. Leviathians are dragons. Those three all have bigger differences than drakes to dragons, drakes have nothing that physically separates them from other 'dragons' other than the size (Which isn't apparent from the sprites)

 

My two cents, I like having drakes be their own breeding group because it adds a bit of depth. I think DC needs to go more in the direction of having more exclusive groups instead of less, because it makes things less monotonous/samey. I wouldn't like it as much if all the dragons except the pygmies were lumped into one breeding group.

 

Please no! Exclusive breeding groups only make this game worse. What do you do when you've collected the Cbs you want? People breed pretty lineages, with so many options there's more to do than just collect them, but with exclusive groups the breeding pool is so low nobody bothers. Drakes are underappreciated because there's so little you can do with them. Not to mention the only breeding group I can see being added that would make sense considering the ridiculous amount of variety in the 'dragon' group would be colossal dragons as size (in sprites!) is defined and makes sense.

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I kind of like the special dragon groups as they are, but I certainly wouldn't object if DC Drakes were able to breed with the general Dragon population (and I have to say I continue to be irritated that only the Drake name is singled out as being something 'different' or 'odd' outside of DC. If you look up Lindwurms on wikipedia or w/e it also talks about them having a different definition to what DC gives its Lindwurms... but anyway). I do think it would be weird if Pygmies or Two-headeds were suddenly able to breed with normal Dragons, as they have a very obvious difference that sets them apart as a separate group, but in any case I do think we need more of these sub-types of dragons in the game. I always like more of them, and it seems like we get maybe one or two a year as opposed to the 10 or so we get of normal dragons (including the holiday dragons).

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What exactly makes them not dragons? Dragons has a very broad and vague definition on DC. Wyrms are dragons. Wyverns are dragons. Leviathians are dragons. Those three all have bigger differences than drakes to dragons, drakes have nothing that physically separates them from other 'dragons' other than the size (Which isn't apparent from the sprites)

They are a different species.

 

It's the same thing that makes bats not birds, rhinos not hippos, and humans not chimps. Intelligence is not the reason we're not bedding chimps - despite a common ancestor, they are not just slightly slow and very hairy humans. We are different species.

 

Dragons are compatible presumably because they're the same species. Despite some differences in appearance, adaptations to their environments, they are basically the same animal. (With plenty of handwaving for wings and limbs and size and whatnot.)

 

The problem with the idea that drakes should be considered dragons because they look like dragons (bats:birds), or the point that certain dragons don't look much alike but are still breedable (beagles:St. Bernards), is that the logic is, "These things look alike so they must be the same thing," and given the site's and spriters' stickiness for (relative) biological realism and anatomical accuracy for our fictional beasties, it might be the worst argument for this suggestion.

 

This is nothing like pygmies and two-headeds, dragons incompatible for physical reasons of size (pygmy+regular would be like chihuahuas+elephants) or weird biology (bulldogs, man, just...bulldogs). They are still accepted, in DC lore, as members of that dragon species. Drakes aren't shut out of breeding by their intelligence or their size - drakes cannot breed with dragons because drakes are not part of the species within DC lore.

 

That said:

 

Retconning drakes as dragons is absolutely doable. A class of dragons, mislabelled by faux-medieval dragonologists who also once thought there were no male pinks or purples - it would be easy. We could have stumbled on particularly primitive specimens. Maybe the other dragons just thought they smelled weird and their mothers dressed them funny, but they're willing to get over it. It could be done.

 

But it's also tossing an entire class of proto-dragons just to free up 10 sprites for pretty lineages, on the argument that the class can't be improved if it stays separate and/or some folks just really would like those 10 sprites to be more mixable with other sprites. I find that argument equally flawed, because in an environment in which dragons make sense, dragon-like critters that are not actually dragons would also make sense, for the same reason we have bats (and that bats are not birds).

 

So my vote is obvious - I like drakes just fine as a separate class, and I like the idea of more varieties of dragonesque critters, or dragon subtypes.

 

Mostly, I think if you want to change the minds of folks who fret over the anatomical accuracy of shoulder alignment on imaginary dragons, you need a better argument than, "But they look alike."

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They are a different species.

 

-snip-

 

Dragons are compatible presumably because they're the same species. Despite some differences in appearance, adaptations to their environments, they are basically the same animal. (With plenty of handwaving for wings and limbs and size and whatnot.)

 

-snip-

 

But it's also tossing an entire class of proto-dragons just to free up 10 sprites for pretty lineages, on the argument that the class can't be improved if it stays separate and/or some folks just really would like those 10 sprites to be more mixable with other sprites. I find that argument equally flawed, because in an environment in which dragons make sense, dragon-like critters that are not actually dragons would also make sense, for the same reason we have bats (and that bats are not birds).

 

-snip-

 

Mostly, I think if you want to change the minds of folks who fret over the anatomical accuracy of shoulder alignment on imaginary dragons, you need a better argument than, "But they look alike."

Sorry but you can't cite 'biological realism' with the way things are now. The breeds of dragons are far too different for them to be realistically considered the same species. What species on earth that can breed together have varying numbers of legs? Nothing evolves so much that they lose legs, or gain feathery wings or gain hooves but can still breed with it's ancestors. If we can handwave that, why can't we handwave drakes breeding with dragons?

 

...which you actually did point out we can do, but that it would be better if we didn't. Different 'classes' are a pretty negative addition to a collecting and breeding game. Pgymies get slack because they're adorable. Two headed don't get much love, but they at least have a reason for not being able to breed with dragons (Two sentient beings in one body and all). Drakes really don't have a reason to not breed with dragons, and it would get them more used. More collected. More loved. Why shouldn't Dc drakes just be like regular drakes, people still make them for the cave - it's not like drakes would be forgotten the wings and the antlers are still used.

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well regardless of two headed and how their heads cooperate and conjoined twins i firmly think that this game does not need a very strong sense of realism

 

this is a fantasy game where you can collect numerous dragons, breed them, kill them, name them, freeze them, neglect them and release them.

 

you can catch chickens and dinos too and even a leetle tree

 

there is no sense of realism there so i dont see the point of restricting breeding between drakes, two heads and regular dragons except for lore and rp which isnt a very good reason to me seeing as how lore and rp does not affect catching eggs raising them and ratios. all those are affected by players not the game itself.

 

now that doesnt mean i want realism gone all together. dinos shouldnt be able to breed same as chickens seeing as how this is a game focused around catching, collecting and breeding dragons. and pygmies shouldnt be able to breed with anything other than pygmies because even without lore and rp the sprite sizes are substantial enough to the naked eye that most people would immediatly think yeah that pygmy cant breed with a brute dragon. case in point chameleons. there are regular sized ones that get to the size of your arm when they grow up. and there are pygmy ones that barely grow larger than your finger at adult size. there is no way the pygmy chameleon will ever breed with the bigger chameleon.

quoting again because this is a fantasy game with no strong sense of realism in it. biological realism isnt a strong argument for against this imo simply because these are made up fantastical creatures. they do not exist in the real world so real world biology and breeding should have very little influence here.

 

besides for some reason its only here on this game that drakes are restricted from other dragons while other places http://www.blackdrago.com/types/drake.htm "Drake is therefore a distinct dragon type." same as westerns and easterns are a distinct dragon type.

 

and if you want to go by separate breeding groups then we should restrict wyvrens, easterns, westerns, wingless and wyrms to only their own kind *sarcasm*

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Personally, I see no use for the current DC drakes. They serve no useful purpose as they are described, and the only reason I even have a pair of each is because I'm a completionist.. the same reason why I have a few chickens and dinos.

 

As a long time player of AD&D, to me the only difference between a dragon and a drake is that a drake has no wings and cannot fly with or without magic. In the AD&D world, these are the descriptions for the various draconic species.

Western Dragon - 4 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, intelligent

Eastern Dragon - variable # of legs, no wings, able to fly with magic, intelligent

Drake - 4 legs, no wings, unable to fly with or without magic, intelligent

Wyvern - 2 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, not intelligent

Flying Snake - 0 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, may or may not be intelligent

Wyrm - 0 legs, 0 wings, may or may not fly using magic, intelligent

Flitter - miniature western dragon, 4 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, childlike intelligence

 

So to me, DC has it all mixed up... stupid Drakes that fly, smart Wyverns with 4 legs, wyrms with legs, etc. I'd prefer that DC just lump all the dragon types together, excluding 2 heads and pygmies. 2 heads being unique to DC and pygmies because they aren't big enough to be dragons.

This. I'm a big time AD&D player as well and have to agree with all of this. However, I intend to try to breed some drake lineages in the future, so I'd rather see more added to the breeding pool rather than gotten rid of or melded in with the other breeds.

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...What DC wyrms have legs? None of the Xenos have legs, and they're the only wyrms we have.

 

Besides, drake has as many definitions as there are stories of dragons; it's absolutely not the "common" that drakes are wingless westerns outside of DC ("lesser dragon-like creature" *eyes DC Drakes*, "young dragon", and "male dragon" are all very common). Even other definitions used on DC (Lindwurm, for instance) have definitions that are different outside of it in some places.

 

The drake argument is a bad argument and it needs to stop being used.

Edited by Guillotine

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and if you want to go by separate breeding groups then we should restrict wyvrens, easterns, westerns, wingless and wyrms to only their own kind *sarcasm*

Interesting that you mention that. Just thought I would share this quote. I doubt TJ's gonna change this after so many years of interbreeding, but if he could go back in time and change it, he might. =p

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