Remove drake breeding

[VixenDra]

though it doesn't affect me as I breed all my dragons into PBs, I also see no reason for drakes to be a separate breeding group...

And I also have difficulties telling if a new dragon is a drake... I find out only when I'm breeding one for the first time and see drakes on the list.

 

 

Besides, exept for playing the game for over 2 years or more, I'm still frustrated by the name of 'drake' being used in DC not for drakes (wingless dragons) but for some DC only type of a dragon that has features ANY (western) dragon can also have... and I discovered what those DC drake features are NOT by looking at the DC drakes but only by reading about them... so it's not even just the drakes vs DC drakes is way too much of confusion only... While breeding groups make sense like for pygmies(pygmies even have that tiny-tiny sprites, drakes have regular!) and two-headeds(well, 2 heads, right? obvious) what does it make for drakes? Regular sprites size-wise etc.(also lore size Look at Mints for example^^), no mind-**ing peculiarities like 2 heads breeding to a 1 head (and having idk a 1,5 head offspring? or inaffected?), no exeptionally large nro small size or sth... No peculiar ways to breed.. simply nothing.

It's like saying you can't breed a Labrador to a German Shepherd... because their ears and markings are different.. and because Labradors are calmer and much less aggressive... (and I know a crossbreed of these in 'person')

And how about western dragons breeding to e.g. wyverns or drakes(wingless)? DC drakes are looking much closer to western dragons than the wyverns etc... They at least have the same number of limbs...

 

For my bf it's a pity he can't use Glaucus drakes for any breeding project...

Edited March 21, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Obscure_Trash]

Besides, exept for playing the game for over 2 years or more, I'm still frustrated by the name of 'drake' being used in DC not for drakes (wingless dragons) but for some DC only type of a dragon that has features ANY (western) dragon can also have... and I discovered what those DC drake features are NOT by looking at the DC drakes but only by reading about them...

 

-snipped-

 

It's like saying you can't breed a Labrador to a German Shepherd... because their ears and markings are different.. and because Labradors are calmer and much less aggressive... (and I know a crossbreed of these in 'person')

And how about western dragons breeding to e.g. wyverns or drakes(wingless)? DC drakes are looking much closer to western dragons than the wyverns etc... They at least have the same number of limbs...

We've been through before that there is no standard meaning of drake.

 

As well, for your comparison, TJ's likened it to humans and gorillas rather than different dog types. We have addressed how we'd handle the issue of intelligence in this thread, though. ^^

[Guillotine]

I'd personally prefer that they be combined with the Pygmy breeding group than normal dragons, since their sizes are more similar and their overall intelligence seems to be closer unless I've misread things, but I otherwise have no strong feelings on this. It would vastly widen both group's breeding pools while still keeping them distinct from the normal dragon breeding.

[Fiona]

Don't like this suggestion.

 

Rather than removing something that is unique to DC, and interesting, it would make more sense to me to resize drake sprites a bit (though I'm not actually in favor of messing with the sprites of artists who are gone, as that seems a little tacky) so that "regular breeders" have sprites between 85 and 100 pixels or more, drakes have sprites around 65 to 85 and pygmies under 60 pixels. That would make them visually more distinct. As for intelligence, I think that was discussed elsewhere, but "regular" dragons have been discussed as having intelligence on a par with humans. (though I don't think it's been established if they are sentient, sapient or something else but the stories for holidays generally have them capable of reasoned thought and communication(yes, I know those aren't canon)) Pygmies seem to be slightly less able to communicate though having an intelligence close to that of the regular dragons. Drakes, being a more primitive species, have intelligence on a par with your average dog, so much less intelligent than regular dragons or pygmies.

 

Mints might want their sprites tweaked too, as right now they're not much larger than pygmy sized, but they're old sprites. They could use a little polish anyway in my opinion.

 

And then I want TJ to make a major drake release so there are more to choose from when breeding. 5 or 6 more breeds would be welcome.

 

This is much more my preference in how to handle the lack of diversity in breeding drakes than doing away with the category altogether.

[Fuzzbucket]

I am with Fi here. I think drakes are fun. I just wish the ones in my lineages would stop doing the "we are only turning up one breed so tough beans..." 😳

[Tango]

It would be a LOT of work to resize every drake, and even then a lot of the regular dragons have smaller sprites. Adding 6 new drakes would also take a lot of work since there are barely on the completed list.

[olympe]

Well, I'm not with Fi. To me, their breeding group doesn't make sense. (No, I wouldn't breed with a gorilla. But, seriously, it's just a line of text or maybe two that makes the difference between drakes and regular dragons.)

Edited March 21, 2016 by olympe

[Fiona]

Adding 6 new drakes would be easy enough if a few of our in-cave spriters decided they liked the idea. A couple of them are wiz-bang fast. A couple more nearly as fast. All those I'm thinking of are fantastic.

 

I was more thinking it made sense to set the size standards for this time forward rather than resizing existing sprites. Yes, it would be more consistent to resize the existing drakes and some of the in-cave regular dragons but part of my hesitation would be the issue of changing sprites for breeds whose artists have left us.

 

ETA: It's more than a line or two in their descriptions that separate them but the canon in our Fearless Leader's head. He accepted the notion when Dove proposed it. It's now part of the lore. No, that doesn't mean it can' be changed. But still, if he likes the demarcation it seems to me you'd need a stronger argument than what's been presented here to change it.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Fiona BlueFire

[Daydreamer09]

Adding 6 new drakes would be easy enough if a few of our in-cave spriters decided they liked the idea. A couple of them are wiz-bang fast. A couple more nearly as fast. All those I'm thinking of are fantastic.

My question is if more drake concepts are created and finished, how long will they sit on the completed list and would they even be considered? With what we have now, the releases for drakes average a little less than 1 a year, taking into account Ochres were first introduced 2009 and we've since had only 5 new breeds.

 

New drake concepts are great and all, but TJ I think needs to proportion out the releases better between regular dragons, drakes, pygmys and two-heads.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Daydreamer09

[VixenDra]

Well, but, keeping the gorillas reference, now we're having chimps, gorillas, baboons, orangutans and most of other not the tiniest primates etc. crossbreeding as they please successively (and sorry for dropping the human here but our races (even the major: white, black, yellow, red) are not even close to how different dragons are in DC...) only exept two-headed primates and the lemurs(pygmies)... and one of the apes kinds suddenly can't crossbreed like the others(who miraculusly can in DC)...

Intelligence is one thing, but really, drakes would need some VISIBLE marks to be seen as sth different than the regular dragons... I actually had in mind a dragon concept that, as I noticed after reading through drake's traits, would accidentally combine all the visible features of a drake... the wings with fully extended membranes, the longer abdomen, antlers and I guess the eyes would end up black as they were to be of a bright color... so you know... this combination may be re-invented by accident... a dragon that 'looks like a drake' but isn't a drake... I want to suggest intelligent dragons if I ever really start some dragon suggestion at last(no time +I'd prefer to have some visual concepts ready first), so I wouldn't accept it being changed into a DC drake...

Anyway.

 

Really, for what can be SEEN, DC drakes make no sense as a separate BREEDING group. And there is little interest in drakes in general, even if some minority of players are much into them... And seems everything that's to blame is little lineage possibilities and a look that could be as well of a regular dragon... and I'm vondering if the restrictions on them aren't to blame for so little drake concepts interest... +I know some people can be kind of... anti people doing a not-too special thing so special as DC drakes were made in DC... +dovealove being so much out of DC... +the fact 'drakes' are often used for 'wingless dragons'(at least in dragon-interested artistic communities I've went across... I know the other sources say sth different but seems this is what the word is getting more commonly used for, words sometimes change their meaning, just look at' gay' meaning 'joyful' in the past and meaning what it does nowadays).

 

I think they could be kept as a design but breeding with regular dragons.

 

Well, anyway, for my own game it doen't make any difference anyway(PBs<3), so I better just leave thediscussion to those users who would really benefit from that change speak

Edited March 22, 2016 by VixenDra

[Odeen]

You can't really make a convincing argument for interbreeding using physiology. Appearance has nothing to do with species' ability to interbreed successfully. Donkeys and horses have only minor superficial phenotypic differences and can only produce infertile hybrids, but a wolf can successfully breed with a komondor or a dachshund and produce fertile offspring. Convergent evolution produces phenotypes that look incredibly similar on entirely different family trees based on selective pressures.

 

This is all completely irrelevant to the fact that DC doesn't operate on evolutionary principle and breeding is completely arbitrary. The argument holds absolutely no water.

[Tango]

For purely selfish reasons, I'd love to breed howler drakes with other dragons. The female sprite is one of my favourites but I don't like them with any of the drakes, but they fit with many regular dragons. Even a new 6 drake release wouldn't give me much to work with.

[cyradis4]

You can't really make a convincing argument for interbreeding using physiology. Appearance has nothing to do with species' ability to interbreed successfully. Donkeys and horses have only minor superficial phenotypic differences and can only produce infertile hybrids, but a wolf can successfully breed with a komondor or a dachshund and produce fertile offspring. Convergent evolution produces phenotypes that look incredibly similar on entirely different family trees based on selective pressures.

 

This is all completely irrelevant to the fact that DC doesn't operate on evolutionary principle and breeding is completely arbitrary. The argument holds absolutely no water.

Technically, there *are* very occasional mules that are fertile. And Zebras can interbreed with horses and donkeys too, with the same results as the Mules.

 

However, I happen to agree in the main with your statement: Function defines form, and part of the reason donkeys and horses "look" similar is that they evolved for similar niches / bred for similar purposes, but their species diverged a long time ago. Dogs, however, are all descended from Wolves far more recently than donkeys and horses and Zebras diverged.

 

And that brings me to DC. Function, in this case, a game, defines form: in this case, dragon types. So to me the question is, does having the "Drake" breeding group add anything to the over-all experience of the game, enough to counter the lack of variety? And personally, I feel that it does not. The other two "groups" both have very clear visual differences. I would far rather slip the Drakes into the normal breeding group, and then focus on releasing *more* dragons into Pygmies and Two-Heads.

 

 

tl;dr:

I feel that folding Drakes into the normal breeding group would be best, because it allows those breeds to be used in regular breeding *and* allows more attention to be focused on the other two special groups, which have very clear visual indicators of what they are.

 

I would rather add 6 or 7 breeds to Pygmies and Two-Heads and do away with Drakes as a sub-group. After all, we only get so-many new dragons each year.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

I like drakes being different. They feel special to me...

 

Am I alone ?

[andromedae]

I think drakes are lovely as well. Even if their characteristics can make them appear as lesser creatures in the eyes of some. They're a part of Dragon Cave, it would be nice if they got more love. An expansion of the drake species would be extremely helpful, and I think it would be the option closest to keeping more people happy. It would be less complex in process, rather than switching up the game's mechanics completely to have drakes breed with dragons or to resize said creatures.

Edited March 22, 2016 by andromedae

[olympe]

Personally, I feel that most non-dragon breeds that get added to the cave are a waste of release. Pygmies and two-headed dragons, fine. Pygmies have quite a bit of variety already, and two-headed dragons are pretty cool as a concept. Drakes have neither the good choice of variety nor are they what I consider a cool concept. Which makes them the losers among the breeding groups.

 

Also, adding drakes to the dragon breeding group (and changing the lore regarding their intelligence level) will serve three different purposes:

1. Give us lots of variety for breeding the current drakes. Not to mention add a few more breeds to the regular dragon breeding group, although that is not as much of a bonus since that's by far the largest group.
2. Do away with the perception of drakes being a lower form of dragons, thereby nullifying what many of us consider to be uncool about drakes.
3. It would also clear up precious "release space" which could go to any of the three remaining breeding groups. We wouldn't need any more drakes to get released (although any concept originally envisioned as drakes could be released as regular dragons instead), which means that we could have more pygmies, twoheads and regular dragons.

The downside? We'd need to change a couple of lines of lore. We wouldn't even lose any breeds, much less any breeding projects.

 

And, yes, we've had changes to DC lore before. When breeding (and, later, lineage view) got introduced. When the cave got split up into six biomes. When we got our first breed-only dragons. When we got male pinks - and again, when we got male purples. (Old pinks, as well as purples, used to be female-only breeds.) When vampires got their BSA, one year after their release. When BSAs were introduced - I certainly remember the discussions around the teleport BSA, back when it was still a suggestion only. Or when we got elements and elemental affinities. And so on.

Edited March 22, 2016 by olympe

[purplehaze]

I'm not really hung up on lore. I don't dislike drakes because they are "less intelligent." I look on them just like any other dragon. What keeps me from collecting more of them is their limited breeding capacity. I quite like the sprites for most of them and can see them making lovely lineages with some of the existing "regular dragon" breeds. I think I could be convinced that this suggestion has merit.

 

I know there are people right now hard at work on trying to come up with more variety in the drake category, but that could take years of effort.

[VixenDra]

Also, there is a large concept being worked on to create a new breeding group for mountain-sized dragons (too large for normal dragons, able to have mountains and plants on them, size difference possibly greater than between pygmies and regulars), if this is ever released, 4 small and restricted breedign groups +the large regular is a bit much...

 

I'd also rather see more of pygmies and two-headeds(though I personally hate the idea of 2 brains sharigng the same body, I even call and treat mine as 'single-brained') and maybe also those mountain sized, but drakes? Very restricted general look makes them more boring in general while in the same time they're not that easly distinguishable from regular dragons (in terms of sprites mostly).

They look nice to me, but there are more benefits of removing their breeding group than of keeping it...

The only reasons to keep them seem to be:

-the sake of not having changes at all

-keeping some tiny exclusive breeding group for the sake of 'specialness' of those few breeds.

Are those really the reason to have them while there are such reasons to remove their breeding group and add them to regular breedign group as olympe mentioned?

[High Lord November]

I think I like the drake's niche. It's a little detail that serves to make it a bit more unique and notable. I agree that we need more of them released in the cave, though.

[Paradisiske]

well like the issue i see with drakes is that its a cycle

 

because thy have their own breeding group it limits the amount of dragons they can breed with and restricts lineage breeding.

because of this lineage builders dont really collect them and the only people who basically do are people who like the sprites or are completing scroll goals which is a small amount of users on the forums im assuming (have no idea about the main site tho)

because people dont really collect them they get a bad rep and end up more often than not as one of the breeds considered caveblockers (even if they're not as bad a caveblocker as other dragons)

because they have a bad rep the people who make dont want to really make drake requests because they feel like no one will be that interested in it and they might get some flake for suggesting a drake instead of a regular dragon

because very very few people suggest drakes there are barely any on the completed list

because there are barely any on the completed list that means there's like no drakes at all getting incave

with no drakes getting incave then that means that the drake breeding pool inside the game stays very small and restrictive

 

now some solutions

remove drake breeding greatly expanding the breeding pool

somehow convince people to flesh out a lot of drake requests and once those are completed have tj put at least 1 or 2 drakes incave every release alongside the regular dragons

 

honestly those are the only solutions i can see for this situation

[Tango]

Allowing drakes to breed with other dragons would not only solve the unloved drakes but drakes make very little sense as a separate species. Most of their differences are expressed through text, and the ones the sprites have aren't big enough to warrant a new species.

 

And yes, it is a cycle and despite having more drakes added recently they'll never be as popular as regular dragons because they're too restricting in their design and TJ would have to add new ones every release, and have several drake only releases to get their number up high enough. Pygmies have their own charm, and two headed dragons are obviously not compatible with regular dragons.

[Paradisiske]

Allowing drakes to breed with other dragons would not only solve the unloved drakes but drakes make very little sense as a separate species. Most of their differences are expressed through text, and the ones the sprites have aren't big enough to warrant a new species.

 

And yes, it is a cycle and despite having more drakes added recently they'll never be as popular as regular dragons because they're too restricting in their design and TJ would have to add new ones every release, and have several drake only releases to get their number up high enough. Pygmies have their own charm, and two headed dragons are obviously not compatible with regular dragons.

I agree sprite wise there's not much difference between drakes and the regular dragons. But tj accepted this idea when dove suggested it to him and seeing as how a good number of people want to consider lore and rp wise into requests and suggestions I'm not sure tj would want to change drake breeding. Until he actually posts in this thread(and 50/50 chance after/if he posts here) I'm not going to have too much hope of this changing

[Obscure_Trash]

While I did support this, drakes do now have their own egg size to help distinguish them. So I think perhaps a different solution would be better. I do not see a compromise between "get rid of the group" and "just make more drakes" though. =U

[Paradisiske]

While I did support this, drakes do now have their own egg size to help distinguish them. So I think perhaps a different solution would be better. I do not see a compromise between "get rid of the group" and "just make more drakes" though. =U

Why not just let the drakes breed with the regular dragons but with a much higher chance of refusal?

[Obscure_Trash]

Why not just let the drakes breed with the regular dragons but with a much higher chance of refusal?

That's not really a compromise between the two ideas. o.o If people want to discuss that here, sure, but I personally do not think it's going to happen since drakes got a smaller egg to help distinguish them.