Remove drake breeding

[VixenDra]

I can personally NEVER tell the newly released dragon is a drake... I'm sure it's a regular dragon till it comes to breed it, and only then I see the only dragons available are the drakes...

 

I see no reason for them being separated. They look like western dragons, I can't help it but to see them as regular western dragons... really, amount of fingers? or size? can you even tell from the pixel sprites? Only the wings... but omg, are those so important if we have dragons with batlike, avian or none all belonging to regular dragons? For me wingtype doesn't redefine a dragon, with the only exeption of no wings at all (non-DC drakes).

 

I wouldn't put them to the pygmy breeding though, definitely... because the sprites are as large as those of the regular dragons. I'd definitely make all drakes into regular dragons. Definitely.

 

I'm all for changing all drakes into regular dragons. Also for the reasons mentioned in OP such as enormous unpopularity of DC drakes.

 

And I'm not even crossbreeding any dragons, I only breed PBs, but I'd still rather seen DC drakes put into the same breeding category as regular dragons. Even though this doesn't concern me and my gameplay at all. I'm very much for this suggestion.

 

 

(not even mentioning that a 'drake' is normally(outside of DC) understood as a wingless dragon... just like a wyvern has no front limbs but just legs and wings, etc.)

Edited February 26, 2016 by VixenDra

[demonicvampiregirl]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand I can see the problem but on the other I think more drakes should be released.

 

Actually I think more dragons in general need released, the completed list is always full and more and more dragons get completed all the time. Maybe to help with this problem a mass Drake creation should come to light so more colors, varieties and drakes get released?

[DragonKing1337]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand I can see the problem but on the other I think more drakes should be released.

 

Actually I think more dragons in general need released, the completed list is always full and more and more dragons get completed all the time. Maybe to help with this problem a mass Drake creation should come to light so more colors, varieties and drakes get released?

Completed list will always be inevitably filled. The number of dragon requests greatly outnumbers the number of releases and there is no realistic workaround. A mass release wouldn't be the answer.

[Luckyclaw]

People are saying 'drakes just need more added to their group' as if it would suddenly make them popular... but EVEN IF drakes suddenly were 50% of the cave, the desire to make them wouldn't be there. I've been thinking about it a lot since my last post. The truth is DC drakes are just not that different from regular dragons. Hear me out.

 

Why are pygmies and two-headed dragons interesting to design? The answer is that they have a noticeable, interesting feature that can be played with. Tiny dragons, and dragons with two heads. Even if wyverns, wurms, westerns and easterns were also their own groups, there's a base to play with that you can do a lot of different things to. Drakes have two VERY specific differences, differences you wouldn't spot unless you were told about them, or at least had them pointed out. Aside from antlers and wing fingers, they're just western dragons. Antlers aren't even unique to drakes, Shimmers, Heartseekers, Terraes, Yulebucks, Solstices, Gemshards, and Striped-rivers have those; so what's left after you realize any dragon can have antlers? One-fingered wings. Unless you set out to SPECIFICALLY make a "drake", you wouldn't even think about that difference, and artists would probably keep using bat-wing references for art.

 

It's okay to have sub-species, they make things interesting... but this is a site called Dragon Cave. This site attracts dragon fans. We almost all came here for dragons. I'm not saying it's the sole reason we all stayed, but if we came for specific evolutionary groups and hardcore, realistic genetics, the site would be better named "Biology Cave", "Creatures Descended from a Common Ancestor Cave", or "Draconic Family-in-the-context-of-Genetics Cave" and the dragons would all be divided into rigid genera and species. However, on this site, Xenowyrms and Seragamma Wyverns can still get down and freaky with each other and make awkward family pictures to upload to Facescroll. If murderous raptor bat-dragons and magic snake-dragons can do that, why not drakes?

 

But, for the sake of my thesis statement opening sentence, imagine a cave where the population was 50% drakes. We would STILL be having this conversation, slightly re-titled. We'd want dragons and drakes to be the same thing. Dragons and drakes have an arbitrary reason they can't breed, decided without the consultation of the user base, back in a time where breeding projects weren't popular. In this example, there would be 50% of the cave closed off to drakes at all times. Glaucus and Ice? Nah. Howler and Grave? Nope. Ochres and Pillows? Not on your life. The only reason drakes are off-limit to dragons is because "that's how it's been". It only closes off beautiful sprites to other equally amazing sprites, hindering gameplay for breeders and fans of the drakes.

 

Putting my own biases aside and being purely analytical, I think this is an unnecessarily restrictive mechanic that serves no purpose, and henceforth should be removed. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain! Drakes can still be called 'drakes' and have their own little sub-group if people really want it (though I personally just want them to be full dragons), but it would be better for everyone if they had more options.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Luckyclaw

[MessengerDragon]

Just wanting to mention, I remember reading somewhere that TJ regretted not having more different groups.

 

~~~~~~~~

 

Personally, I'd like more drakes, and for the restriction to remain. Perhaps a drake holiday dragon or two would make the group more liked.

[SullenCat]

Personally, I'd like more drakes, and for the restriction to remain. Perhaps a drake holiday dragon or two would make the group more liked.

Personally, I do not care about drakes and a holiday drake would just make me feel like a wasted holiday, I would not like the group more, would dislike it more. Still personally, I would much prefer if the restriction was removed.

[Luckyclaw]

Just wanting to mention, I remember reading somewhere that TJ regretted not having more different groups.

 

~~~~~~~~

 

Personally, I'd like more drakes, and for the restriction to remain. Perhaps a drake holiday dragon or two would make the group more liked.

If he regrets not having more groups, then it shouldn't stop with drakes... dragons of all different body types should have their own groups, and drakes should be in the western dragon group. As it stands, drakes are too similar to westerns and have a single unique characteristic (list of antlered dragons in post above).

 

Drakes are an odd group, too specific to be fun to design for and too generic for the average person to understand exactly why they can't breed with normal dragons. Even if their numbers were boosted, unless drakes had a drastically different trait that separated them from the average in-cave dragon, these problems will remain. The surge in their popularity caused by a larger number, if they have one, will be artificial and temporary. We'll come right back to the problem of people not having a reason to design drakes as opposed to regular dragons. Dragons. What we play the game for.

 

Go all the way, or none of the way. The drake group just gets in the way of breeding projects for a very small reason. A main style of playing the game now is creating lineages, the Drake-only group hinders this goal and contributes nothing else to the game.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Luckyclaw

[andromedagalaxia]

Support for this.

[skwerl56767]

I still don't really see the benefit of removing the drake breeding group. It seems like the only reason is for the sake of lineages and breed diversity, and if you want diversity, why not make more drakes? The group is already established, and if TJ said he would actually like to make more breeding groups there's no point in removing it. So it is a pretty odd group, but the only solution I can think of to change its oddity is to somehow contact Dovealove and see if the requirements for DC drakes can be changed to allow further diversity/make drakes more unique from dragons, or if DC drakes could be blended with standard drakes (wingless dragons) to enlarge the breeding group, even if just a tiny bit (though this would include several dragons that aren't drakes in the drake group, which would destroy preexisting lineages... probably a worse solution, now that I think about it). Also, as far as I'm concerned, having drakes be to dragons the way dogs or apes are to people is enough of a drastic change to warrant their own breeding group. In that respect, pairing a dragon with a drake is effectively like marrying your dog or your cat... In some lore this is exaggerated by actually offending dragons by comparing drakes to them, though I don't know if DC lore follows that trend. That, and no one said that the drastic difference had to be aesthetic, so the intelligence gap could be all that's needed (though granted, the same argument could be used to make more breeding groups restricting Easterns, Westerns, Wyverns, etc. Maybe that's what TJ was regretting?)

Regardless, I really do like the breeding mechanics as they are, even if I don't use them; I've dealt with weirder breeding mechanics in the past and been fine.

[Kovia]

Dear everyone saying that adding more drakes won't help:

 

Yes, flooding DC with random drakes won't help. However, the addition of just one or two that have gorgeous sprites can and will help.

 

I will leave now.

[Obscure_Trash]

Ah, thanks Sock! So I guess we could alter drakes, but I wouldn't know if Dovealove is actually inactive or not. She could just be active behind the scenes; I mean, I seem completely nonexistent on the Tales of Ostlea forums, but I do still chat with the staff in private forums and on Skype. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar situation there. Then again, I imagine someone like Sock would be involved in such chats, so maybe she really is inactive... but it still makes me question if we should change her drakes at all, especially since she's not here to know what's happening? Maybe I'm just being cautious...

Dove is inactive from DC. IIRC, I believe she actually basically resigned from us as officially as possible and gave permission to mess with stuff.

 

It would seem a shame to restrict DC because of one artist's possible opinion that they formed... five years ago, maybe? Maybe more?

We're not changing her concept itself more than we already have in the past in any case. =p

 

But honestly? Let TJ worry about the permissions.

 

"Make it interesting" means "design more drakes". Obviously we would need more drakes to make the breed interesting. How do you make more drakes? Make more drake DRs, send private requests to TJ, create a demand for drakes.

 

People always say this when the limited breeding pool is brought up, but this never creates a change in the requests I see in DR. People want more restricted breeders but they don't want to waste their time on them because it seems such a small chance they'd be released, much less enjoyed by the public.

 

But now you guys are making it sound like drakes just aren't an interesting breed and that's why there's a problem.

 

They all look really similar with similar color palettes. I personally don't care for glaucus' but those that do have lamented that none of the colors of the other drakes we have really compliment the glaucus in lineages.

 

As well, while the majority of pygmies have dimorphism, drakes do not.

 

There's just not a lot of things to do with them. There are not a lot of combos and not a lot of appealing combos at that.

 

In short I don't see how removing the drake breeding group would help anything-even regarding lineages-when we could just make more drakes and have new content at the same time.

 

Because we're not saying "drakes are boring". We are saying "breeding drakes is boring" and "creating drakes is boring because they're a lot more characteristically restrictive than other restricted breeding groups". If they could breed with regular dragons, we suddenly have - what - one hundred new lineages to try them in.

 

The truth is DC drakes are just not that different from regular dragons. Hear me out.

 

Why are pygmies and two-headed dragons interesting to design? The answer is that they have a noticeable, interesting feature that can be played with. Tiny dragons, and dragons with two heads. Even if wyverns, wurms, westerns and easterns were also their own groups, there's a base to play with that you can do a lot of different things to. Drakes have two VERY specific differences, differences you wouldn't spot unless you were told about them, or at least had them pointed out. Aside from antlers and wing fingers, they're just western dragons. Antlers aren't even unique to drakes, Shimmers, Heartseekers, Terraes, Yulebucks, Solstices, Gemshards, and Striped-rivers have those; so what's left after you realize any dragon can have antlers? One-fingered wings. Unless you set out to SPECIFICALLY make a "drake", you wouldn't even think about that difference, and artists would probably keep using bat-wing references for art.

 

This is a way more articulate version of what I was trying to explain earlier about why drakes as a restricted category are weird and clunky.

 

Just wanting to mention, I remember reading somewhere that TJ regretted not having more different groups.

 

There are two possibilities I found for what you're referring to:

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry8883271

"Drakes are most definitely, 100% a separate species from dragons; interbreeding would not be physically possible. And really, the same is probably true for wyverns, eastern dragons, western dragons, amphipteres, sea dragons, etc."

 

Drakes are most definitely, 100% a separate species from dragons; interbreeding would not be physically possible. And really, the same is probably true for wyverns, eastern dragons, western dragons, amphipteres, sea dragons, etc.

"Realistically, the different breeds of dragon shouldn't be able to breed together, and are actually more like distinct species that are closely-related than breeds of the same species. And realistically, if they were able to breed together, the expressed traits would be some mixture of the parents.

But let's just throw all that out the window and go with the Pokemon approach: Dragon "breeds" are a discrete spectrum, so two dragons that breed will produce a dragon of a distinct breed, not something that is blended between the two.

Though I'm still leaning towards things like wyverns being a distinct species from dragons, etc."

 

But when looking for that, I also found this: https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry8659331

"This is one of those things that I don't think is actually realistic or canon, but is an example of separation of game mechanics from reality for the purposes of allowing people to do more interesting things.

 

Similarly, the various classes of dragons (easterns, wyverns, etc) are probably different enough that not all of them would actually be able to breed together. "

 

Bolding mine. Even if we didn't tweak the lore just a bit to make drake breeding fit more with dragon breeding, I personally think allowing drakes to breed with dragons would allow us to do more interesting things. Interesting things I am interested in pursuing and therefore support. =p

 

The group is already established, and if TJ said he would actually like to make more breeding groups there's no point in removing it.

 

If TJ wants to shut an idea down, he can. Until then, we should share our own opinions so that if TJ is interested, they are here to read. ;3

 

It seems like the only reason is for the sake of lineages and breed diversity,

 

Things which are a huge part of the game.

[Silverwatermist]

*earlier parts cut out for focus*

The only reason drakes are off-limit to dragons is because "that's how it's been". It only closes off beautiful sprites to other equally amazing sprites, hindering gameplay for breeders and fans of the drakes.

 

Putting my own biases aside and being purely analytical, I think this is an unnecessarily restrictive mechanic that serves no purpose, and henceforth should be removed. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain! Drakes can still be called 'drakes' and have their own little sub-group if people really want it (though I personally just want them to be full dragons), but it would be better for everyone if they had more options.

I agree with all of the above. My problems with the Drake breeding group is that it closes off beautiful sprites from the larger dragon breeding pool, into a tiny breeding pool of inadequate color matches and pairings that just don't look interesting. Day and Night Glories are the only ones, in my opinion, that look EXCEPTIONAL together, but otherwise almost every other Drake that exists seems to be more well-matched to several (or many) regular dragons than they are to any other Drake by a longshot, almost as if they were designed to be regular dragons originally. For example, Howlers can't breed with Halloweens even though they aesthetically look TAILOR-MADE to do so. Right now, the Drakes are just a band of misfits.

 

That being said, no wonder they aren't popular; unlike Two-Headeds and Pygmies, which all have decent to really nice pairs within their breeding group, Drakes have almost none. And the justification, in my eyes, is thin. The Drake breeding group is totally arbitrary when it comes to physical differences between them and regular dragons, with only one difference that is truly significant: their intelligence.

 

A lot of people are citing this fact, some saying it would be gross for regular dragons to mate with Drakes, others saying "But even if it's gross--why not?" but I actually think intelligence is a valid factor for regular dragons refusing to mate with them. However, if Drakes barely look different than regular dragons, because otherwise they barely ARE different... shouldn't they biologically still be able to mate with Dragons? Now I agree that biology shouldn't come too much into play here (because it doesn't with any of the regular dragons that are all crazy different from each other), but it still begs the question...

 

If the Drake breeding group has been unsuccessful compared to the other two (Pygmy and Two-Headed), and they REALLY aren't significantly physically different than regular dragons, then shouldn't the game mechanic be changed? I think that just adding more Drakes isn't the answer because even if you designed potential mates for each Drake, that doesn't help the problem... after all, Day and Night Glories are pretty much made for each other and both are stunning, yet I still only ever find CBs in the AP. Few people are working with them because they're too restricted and it's not fun. It's also possible that the fact that they're "stupid" makes them too unappealing compared to the more intelligent dragons, and they don't have the cuteness factor/nice mate pairs that Pygmies do to mitigate this.

 

So my opinion is that Drakes should be added to the main dragon breeding pool and either: 1) Their intelligence should be retconned a little, maybe by discovering that they're smarter than we think (maybe they simply can't communicate as well with regular dragons? Their telepathy works on a different wavelength or wasn't coming through clearly to regular dragons so they thought they were stupid?) or 2) They should have higher refusal chance when mated with regular dragons. Personally I don't think we should have refusals in DC either, but it seems to make sense in this case, so I'm just putting it out there.

[demonicvampiregirl]

Completed list will always be inevitably filled. The number of dragon requests greatly outnumbers the number of releases and there is no realistic workaround. A mass release wouldn't be the answer.

Actually there was a call for one or two releases a month to help with that problem and then it got lowered suddenly (was mostly two then went to one again).

 

But yeah as I said I am really on the fence with this. If they are meant to be a separate species that can only breed with it's own kind I'd say add more in for a while. I think over all I can't see this really having that big of an affect on me as I rarely if ever breed now just pick up and fill my egg slots when I feel up to it.

[AppleMango]

I thought drakes were small?

To me, it would make more sense to let them breed with pygmies rather than the normal dragons...

Basing this off night glory drakes get mistaken for bats.

[SheridanCharon]

Though, someone mentioned that there was a ruckus over the release of Greater Spotteds, Magelights and Hooktalons? I never caught wind of this...

There might not have been as many or as vocal complaints here on D.C. itself (people here are much more polite in general, which is what I love about this place, it's like a breath of fresh air compared to most of the internet) but in some other places I used to go to, there were some ... less than polite comments about that release, with the Drakes and Hooktalons getting the worst of it, not because of the design but because of the limited breeding options...

 

I'll admit, even I was a bit disappointed to find I couldn't breed the Spotted with other dragons, because to me they look lovely with Terrae.

Edited February 26, 2016 by CharonDusk

[aussieJJDude]

I suggest, the IVF Dragon, with the BSA of "IVF" allowing different species to breed together!

 

 

However, I think just opening up the breed pool would help. I've never seen a DC drake on the adbandon page higher than 2G, I pretty sure no one breeds them past 2G. If we have more variety - thats carefully chosen TJ, giving interesting breeding results - it might help these backburner breeds somewhat and get the ball going again.

[Fuzzbucket]

However, I think just opening up the breed pool would help. I've never seen a DC drake on the adbandon page higher than 2G, I pretty sure no one breeds them past 2G. If we have more variety - thats carefully chosen TJ, giving interesting breeding results - it might help these backburner breeds somewhat and get the ball going again.

I breed them past 2 gen - to name but one player But I have yet to abandon one.

 

I am doing a night one too.

 

But the "usual" breeding thing kicks in. I have BIG issues getting anything other than a Glaucus from glories at the moment, for instance...

Edited February 26, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[AppleMango]

I suggest, the IVF Dragon, with the BSA of "IVF" allowing different species to breed together!

 

I love this idea!

[grimace]

It makes sense. Kind of like how tuataras, crocodiles, and lizards all look pretty alike but can't interbreed and aren't even terribly closely related.

 

Mechanically though I don't have much of an opinion. Having drakes be breedable with everything else would be neat.

[cyradis4]

Game wise, while I have 16 CBs of each of the drakes, I have not collected a single additional one since I met my goals (unless I got them as hatchies / incu-hatchables). To me, they are fairly useless breeding wise, and the only time I breed them is to clog up the AP.

 

Their physical differences between the "normal" group are very minor, and I can't see them. Or more accurately, every visual "difference" between Drakes and normals turns up IN at least a few of the normal breeds!

 

In fact, there are far more physical variations within the normal group than between "normal" and drakes! Just look at Wyrms (no legs / wings) and Luminas (2 sets of wings and 2 sets of legs)! In the normal group, dragons that can't physically even *reach* each other can still breed (Deep Seas are in the deep sea and never surface and Skywings are always in the air) and even form a hybrid (Blunas)!

 

As for the intelligence.... Some of the dragons are described as very intelligent and others really stupid, so.... Some being even more stupid doesn't, to me, seem a big deal.

 

So, in the end, I'm very strongly in favor of this. Specifically, because the "differences" between drakes and normals are:

1. Not clearly visible (you can pick Pygmies and 2-heads out in a line-up)

2. The differences of the Drakes is already covered by the huge variation in the normal dragons, and while that combo doesn't appear in normal dragons, each of the individual differences does appear there.

 

And if you wanted to make it even more interesting? A high refusal rate strikes me as fitting... because some dragons are going to be much less inclined to breed with something stupid than others.... But that's likely to be on an individual dragon basis.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[purplehaze]

I am pretty much neutral on this suggestion, although I have done a fair amount of breeding with drakes: http://dragcave.net/lineage/y7bgq and http://dragcave.net/lineage/gOh6w (which was my all-the-drakes lineage until the last release) for example.

[olympe]

Aside from antlers and wing fingers, they're just western dragons. Antlers aren't even unique to drakes, Shimmers, Heartseekers, Terraes, Yulebucks, Solstices, Gemshards, and Striped-rivers have those; so what's left after you realize any dragon can have antlers? One-fingered wings. Unless you set out to SPECIFICALLY make a "drake", you wouldn't even think about that difference, and artists would probably keep using bat-wing references for art.

Plus the frilly things going down along their sides until the end of the tail.

But there are lots of dragons in the cave that have those pterodactyl-like wings. Tangars, Stripes, Sunrises and Sunsets, Sunstone (or so it seems), Swallowtails and Coastals, at the very least. Which leaves the skin at the sides, which is reminiscent of ridgewings. But even here, we have dragons in-cave that share that particular feature: Flamingos, Ridgewings and Seawyrm Pygmies (with some supporting bones), Spring and Autumn Seasonals, Trihorns... I know, you get it. It's true that, thus far, no *dragon* breed combines all three specific drake features, but these features are not as unique to drakes as it may seem.

 

Yes, flooding DC with random drakes won't help. However, the addition of just one or two that have gorgeous sprites can and will help.

We already have those gorgeous sprites - but they're too few and their breeding options too limited to make drakes 'interesting'.

 

I still don't really see the benefit of removing the drake breeding group. It seems like the only reason is for the sake of lineages and breed diversity, and if you want diversity, why not make more drakes? The group is already established, and if TJ said he would actually like to make more breeding groups there's no point in removing it. So it is a pretty odd group, but the only solution I can think of to change its oddity is to somehow contact Dovealove and see if the requirements for DC drakes can be changed

Including drakes in the dragon breeding group gives us diversity as well as place for future releases in the pygmy or two-head group to add some more variety there. Not to mention that it won't cost us any regular dragon releases, either.

And trust me, you really don't want to contact dovealove, or she'll flay you alive with her words alone. (She's done with DC, and doesn't want to have anything to do with anything related to DC any more. She doesn't want to be bothered by us. This stance hasn't changed since she left, and was last checked about a year or so ago. Just don't.)

 

That, and no one said that the drastic difference had to be aesthetic, so the intelligence gap could be all that's needed

The intelligence gap is all that's needed. But in order to "fix" that, it only takes editing maybe a handful of sentences throughout the site. And maybe the same amount for the drakes' "smallness".

 

Because we're not saying "drakes are boring". We are saying "breeding drakes is boring" and "creating drakes is boring because they're a lot more characteristically restrictive than other restricted breeding groups". If they could breed with regular dragons, we suddenly have - what - one hundred new lineages to try them in.

More like 900 combinations, as we have almost 150 regular dragon breeds which could be tried with any of the 6 drake breeds. That's quite a lot of options in my book. (And doesn't even include different kinds of lineages - EG, checkers, spirals, staircases...) Of course, not everyone has CBs of everything (holidays, prizes), so we have a realistic addition 600-800 new pairings for everyone to try.

[Tango]

Great to see the discussion on this, wish we could get a word from TJ but he doesn't seem to reply often in suggestion threads.

[Ayelldee]

I would also love to see the current drakes able to mate with regular dragons. The examples of the even lineages were very very nice. That seems a more 'workable' solution than dropping insane numbers of drakes. Or perhaps some of the more muted-colored beasts could be brightened up some? Is it a rule that all drakes have to be so drab?

[olympe]

Or perhaps some of the more muted-colored beasts could be brightened up some? Is it a rule that all drakes have to be so drab?

Considering what Glaucus Drakes and Day Glories look like, I'd say no, there's no such rule.