Remove drake breeding

[Tango]

Something has been bothering me for a while now about the dragon species. We have 4 separate species that cannot interbreed, dragons, pygmies, two-headed and drakes. The thing that bothers me though is that drakes do not have the huge differences that any of the other species have, why wouldn't they be able to breed with dragons? The only big characteristics of drakes that separate them from dragons are:

 

Their small size, which is only referenced once in the descriptions of any drake - where the nightglory is said to be mistaken for a bat sometimes, although this doesn't directly refer to them being mistaken because of size. The characteristics page also says they tend to be the size of cats or dogs. Which is also a trait shared by pygmies, said to be the size of cats. If size was an issue with regular dragons, it shouldn't be one with pygmies.

 

And their intelligence, only referenced once. I could see how this prevents them from breeding with more intelligent species but it seems to be an odd choice for a design based game.

 

But dragoncave species are usually separated by design, not lore. Descriptions can always be altered and usually there needs to be a big reason for the difference in species. Pygmies are obvious, they're too small to breed with other dragons and the sprite shows it. Two headed dragons have two minds, one body, another obvious design that can be seen on the sprite.

The biggest design point of a drake is the wings, which don't have 'wing fingers', and perhaps the antlers. Should a entire species really be based of wing type? Why aren't feathered dragons a separate species? Regular dragons can also have both these traits (Sapphires have no wing fingers, and solstice dragons have antlers to name a few) so they're not unique to drakes.

 

Drakes are very limited in terms of design. Pygmys, two headeds and regular dragons can all be wyverns, four legged, wyrms, easterns, wingless drakes and Amphipteres. Drakes can only be easterns or 4 legged. This really makes them less fun to work on.

Drakes don't make much sense as an entirely different species based on design because weirder dragons can breed, xenos can breed with dragons despite huge differences.

 

Beyond the breeding limitation not making much sense to me, I mainly think it should be changed because DC drakes get no love and their very limited pool of dragons is one of the reasons. Everyone knows how much pretty lineages are loved around here.

 

The reason I advocate for DC drakes to be able to breed with regular (Or pygmy if size really is an issue) dragons above others is that they are not popular, taking a quick look at the dragon suggestion page there are a lot of pygmies in production. There are less two headed dragons but I can find quite a few. I cannot find barely any DC drakes, they are just not different enough to be fun to design from regular dragons - if you wanted to make a drake you could change a few characteristics, turn it into a regular dragon and suddenly there are so many more options for breeding.

 

Whereas pygmies and two headeds have room to expand I don't think drakes will in their current situation, and I think expanding their breeding pool to be with either regular dragons or pygmies would make them more popular and maybe even help with the drakes that are cave blockers. They can still be a species, I just don't think they should only be able to breed with their own kind.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Tango

[angelicdragonpuppy]

While I understand your frustration (drakes really aren't that different looking from normal dragons, and I've always preferred the association of drake = wingless dumber dragon instead of drake = one user's idea of an antlered multispined dog sized dragon, but anyhoo), the current in game canon is that ALL drakes, as a rule, are way stupider than dragons. They're basically not that far above lizards in terms of comparison. This is what makes the idea of interbreeding kinda ick. While DC could try to retcon things and make drakes smarter, the idea feels even more bleh to me then just leaving things as-is.

[DragonKing1337]

I believe TJ pointed out that Drakes are to dragons what apes are to humans (something along those lines).

 

What I take from that is: the two are too far apart to interbreed.

 

In cave dragons have some illogical breeding situations but you can't be too critical on the realism for a game about dragons.

[Tango]

While I understand your frustration (drakes really aren't that different looking from normal dragons, and I've always preferred the association of drake = wingless dumber dragon instead of drake = one user's idea of an antlered multispined dog sized dragon, but anyhoo), the current in game canon is that ALL drakes, as a rule, are way stupider than dragons. They're basically not that far above lizards in terms of comparison. This is what makes the idea of interbreeding kinda ick. While DC could try to retcon things and make drakes smarter, the idea feels even more bleh to me then just leaving things as-is.

Part of the reason I think this would be possible is that there isn't really all that much retcon to do, only once of the drakes descriptions mention their size, and one mentions their intelligence. It would make people feel weird for a bit but wouldn't that be better than the breeds being essentially useless? Pygmies, drakes and two headeds all suffer from their limited breeding pool but pygmies and two headed are expanding.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Personally, I see no use for the current DC drakes. They serve no useful purpose as they are described, and the only reason I even have a pair of each is because I'm a completionist.. the same reason why I have a few chickens and dinos.

 

As a long time player of AD&D, to me the only difference between a dragon and a drake is that a drake has no wings and cannot fly with or without magic. In the AD&D world, these are the descriptions for the various draconic species.

Western Dragon - 4 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, intelligent

Eastern Dragon - variable # of legs, no wings, able to fly with magic, intelligent

Drake - 4 legs, no wings, unable to fly with or without magic, intelligent

Wyvern - 2 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, not intelligent

Flying Snake - 0 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, may or may not be intelligent

Wyrm - 0 legs, 0 wings, may or may not fly using magic, intelligent

Flitter - miniature western dragon, 4 legs, 2 wings, able to fly, childlike intelligence

 

So to me, DC has it all mixed up... stupid Drakes that fly, smart Wyverns with 4 legs, wyrms with legs, etc. I'd prefer that DC just lump all the dragon types together, excluding 2 heads and pygmies. 2 heads being unique to DC and pygmies because they aren't big enough to be dragons.

[JOTB]

Except DC is its own world, with it's own original species and breeds and canon and since none of these things actually exist we can make up whatever the heck we want. I would boring and kinda plagiarism to pick some other universe and copy their system verbatim.

 

I do think we need more drakes though!

 

Plus, in the real science world very very minor differences can contribute to species being unable to breed with one another. If you want realism there should really be more separate breeding groups!

Edited February 24, 2016 by JOTB

[Odeen]

If the issue is a lack of options in the breeding group, then I would agree with JOTB that a better solution would be to add more breeds to the breeding group - not demolish the group entirely.

 

After all, it's really gross to me to think about something even on the low intellectual level of a Neotropical dragon breeding with something like a Howler, which is basically a particularly stupid badger.

[Luckyclaw]

I actually would be in favor of retconning the concept of drakes entirely, and just making them pygmies or regular dragons. Not only do I not like the fact that they can't breed with anything, not only do I hate the fact that they block the cave, but I also just hate the idea of them in general. Stupider dragons with antlers? I like making descriptions for my dragons, that's my way of playing the game. There's little to nothing you can say about a dog/chimp dragon. Ever since the RELEASE of drakes I've thought it was a silly idea to make them separate from dragons when they're so similar. We can't have roosters, but the distant relative of your dragon's ex-roommate is A-okay, because it's a lizard?

 

I don't mind some kind of creature being mentioned in the lore, but as it stands, drakes just get in the way on your scrolls. In my opinion, they may as well be unbreedable with such a limited pool.

 

The only reason I keep drakes is for completion. I don't touch or look at them otherwise, except one who had a very unfitting description approved in error when they were first released and everyone was still confused.

 

#FreetheDrakes

[schenanigans]

I am much more in favor of adding more Drakes to the cave. It's a bummer that the breeding options are so limited, but I don't believe that means they should be breedable with dragons. I'm personally hoping for a drake holiday at some point

Edited February 24, 2016 by Areous

[AGYK]

I don't think we need to remove any of the "egg groups". They're a cool enough concept. The problem with drakes is the size of their breeding pool and lack of good pairings, imo.

 

Look at pygmies - we have a veritable rainbow (crimson: red; pumpkin/pygmy: orange; magelight: green; misfit/seawyrm: blue-green; nilia: blue; dark myst: dark purple/black) and a lot of pairings that look good together (crimson/pumpkin, magelight/dark myst, pumpkin/dark myst among others). Now look at drakes - many fewer colors, many fewer pairings that look good together. Two-headeds have a similar problem.

 

I think we just need a couple of good drake releases and we'll be fine.

[skwerl56767]

I agree with the others; the solution isn't to remove an entire breeding group, the solution is to expand it so it's more interesting and people will want it. Plus, I don't think TJ wants to go through the code and remove an entire breeding group when he could just add another breed; and we all want new content anyway. Adding more drakes would be easier, as long as TJ actually implements them.

As for differences between the two, I personally don't care, but I think drakes are different enough from dragons to warrant their own breeding group. After all, Two-Headeds are just double-headed dragons, and Pygmies are just very small dragons. Drakes are just dumb dragons with slightly more specific traits. Not any better or worse than the others, in my opinion.

[noxlyx]

Definitely tossing my two cents in to say that what DC needs a tremendous expansion of Drakes, Pygmies, and Two Headed dragons. Now that I really think about it, is it possible to mate these dragons to a Holiday dragon? Aside from the pumpkin pygmy, I don't think I've ever seen these dragons as potential mates for Holiday dragons even. And I just went and checked my scroll, mating with Holidays aren't even an option, thus probably the reason why I've forgotten that drakes even existed in the first place.

 

A huge expansion of these dragons (drakes, pygmies, and two heads) would give them the popularity boost they kind of desperately need - as well as something to make them more appealing.

 

As for changing breeding patterns for Drakes, I don't think it's possible because the DC Lore is extensive. However, I haven't seen any major lore regarding Drakes either. Everything usually surrounds the more intelligent breeds or the Holiday dragons. If it's possible to change the lore behind the scenes without making a huge impact on the site, maybe. But this is TJ's baby, so it's up to him if he wants to change the Lore or not. Until then, I'm against changing the breeding patterns.

[KageSora]

Honestly, I don't see a need to remove them. I like the idea--what it's lacking is variety.

 

The solution is to have more dragons in these categories be added to the game. I would love seeing more added, there's plenty of potential and room to grow for the drakes, two-headeds, and pygmies all.

 

As for describing them... There's plenty you can say about a dog or a chimp--don't let their lack of intelligence stop you. Brains aren't everything, and plenty of animals have a notable personality.

[626lavaheart]

TJ just needs to release a Drake concept every week next month then the whole small breeding pool problem will be solved

 

tbh I don't care either way, drakes definitely don't feel like they need their own serperate breeding class imo since they're pretty much normal dragons, but at the same time It's kinda already part of DC, we all know how well ppl on DC handle change.

[Obscure_Trash]

Honestly? I'm not completely against this idea.

 

Pygmies, 2heads, and other dragons all have noticeable physical differences that make it obvious why they're in different breeding groups (although mints are a funny one, in more ways than one). Drakes don't have this same distinction. As well, drakes are really... kind of an oddity within DC. We've got pygmies, which are clear: really small dragons. We've got 2-headed dragons, which are clear: they have two heads. We have dragons, which are... all over the place: basically a catchall for everything else. And then there's drakes simplified down to: they're less intelligent, have antlers, and have weird wings. It's just... kinda oddly specific, even when we loosen the guidelines. And yeah, what I mentioned isn't hard criteria to meet: it's just weird. Everything else is really open but drakes. And thanks to that, they fit in smoothly with the bulk of the dragons.

 

So yeah, there's a lore reason why drakes don't breed with other dragons, but I think it's been said here before that not everything needs to come down to lore. Some things have to work in the cave because that's just the way they work. And with drakes not having obvious differences from other dragons, I don't see a huge deal about changing the way they breed, especially as not many people pay attention to drakes because of their limited breeding pool.

 

I do agree more pygmies, 2heads, and even drakes need released. The unfortunately problem is that we're in a negative feedback loop. Users don't want to suggest D2Ps because nobody is too interested in collecting them -> nobody suggests D2Ps -> there aren't enough choices to choose cave-ready D2Ps to release -> D2Ps continue to be extremely limited release groups -> nobody wants to suggest D2Ps because nobody is too interested in collecting them because they're not being released -> etc., etc., etc.

However, I think (I have no facts to back this up, of course, so I'm probably just spouting hogwash here) that drakes suffer from this a little more (pygmies probably the least, and if we counted, there's probably actually more drake suggestions than 2head suggestions, so...) than the other two because of their specificity. As well, they tend to have a pretty narrow brightness range, and so even lineages with them aren't the most eye-catching.

 

But I think perhaps two limited breeding groups is enough to focus on. Let's bulk up pygmies and 2heads more and not have to worry about drakes. =o

 

I'm honestly not expecting a change, nor will I be disappointed at a lack of one, but I also honestly am not against this suggestion.

[Fuzzbucket]

Except DC is its own world, with it's own original species and breeds and canon and since none of these things actually exist we can make up whatever the heck we want. I would boring and kinda plagiarism to pick some other universe and copy their system verbatim.

 

I do think we need more drakes though!

 

Plus, in the real science world very very minor differences can contribute to species being unable to breed with one another. If you want realism there should really be more separate breeding groups!

Yes - I agree - more drakes, please. I like having a variety of breeding groups, myself. I was hoping for the new Val to be a drake, myself

[626lavaheart]

Ya Sockpuppet I do agree about ppl not suggesting Drakes, 2 heads, and pygmies.

 

I put in a pygmy suggestion for xmas this year then afterwords checked out the "what kind of xmas do you want next" thread in general discussion and was kinda bummed that 1st page people were already saying they didn't want any sort of pygmies or non-normal dragons that appealed to "niche groups"... DR people pick up on that sort of thing, a lot of people don't like putting effort into dragons that won't be released.

 

like I definitely won't be making anymore non-normal dragons for holidays lol

so much effort, when you realize that if your non-normal holiday were to be released a whinefest would start over it not being a normal holiday dragon...

Edited February 24, 2016 by 626lavaheart

[Ruby Eyes]

Except DC is its own world, with it's own original species and breeds and canon and since none of these things actually exist we can make up whatever the heck we want.  I would boring and kinda plagiarism to pick some other universe and copy their system verbatim.

That's what crossed my mind a couple of times, too, whenever someone mentions someone else's fancy dragon species system. It's not like there's any *scientific* research and observation that would put dragon X into breed Y of family Z for everyone to see - it's all just myth taken and turned into something that remotely resembles something like real life fauna.

Basically, I'd prefer DC sticking to what it has right now and expanding it, instead of pushing it all over and adapting it to someone else's definitions.

 

I do think we need more drakes though!

I agree

 

Plus, in the real science world very very minor differences can contribute to species being unable to breed with one another.  If you want realism there should really be more separate breeding groups!

Either that, or way more hybrids and mixed-breeds like with dogs ...

[Amazon_warrior]

As for describing them...  There's plenty you can say about a dog or a chimp--don't let their lack of intelligence stop you.  Brains aren't everything, and plenty of animals have a notable personality.

Heck, I could probably write a fair bit about my guinea pigs if I wanted - and even I will admit that they're essentially small, barely sentient (but cute!) balls of fluff and nonsense. *snugs Mommet and Muffin*

 

 

I agree that all three "special" groups could do with more variety, and that a negative feedback loop described by SPS definitely exists. As it stands, the only "non-dragon" Holiday we have is the Pumpkins, and even their breeding with Pygmies seemed to be added rather after the fact (Pumpkins were unbreedable for quite a while, iirc) - I think the fact that they have a Holiday representative does help the Pygmies quite a lot. But Holidays depend on 1) people creating "non-dragon" Holiday breeds and 2) TJ deciding to release them. (Weren't the Two-Headed Lindwyrms meant to be a Halloween release?) Otherwise, there's a massive lack of diversity, so only the most dedicated fans of the "not-a-dragon" groups really do much with them.

 

I make sure I have my base "16 adults + 3 frozen CBs" of all breeds, and I'll totally collect "non-dragon" breeds if they fall within my sphere of interest (i.e., they have a code I like), but sadly I don't tend to do much with them otherwise. And this is a shame, because I really love some of the Drake sprites - especially the Glaucus drakes.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Amazon_warrior

[olympe]

There's something about this suggestion and the following discussion that rings very true in my ears.

 

Right now we have exactly 6 drake breeds, two of which are "sister breeds", as one can create eggs of the other type and vice versa. Which is very little variety. Adding to that problem is the color pallette we have for drakes: light brown (ochre), gold, dark brown with some blue, black with a little brown and red, dull green with bits of brown, and various shades of blue combined with white. Considering that brown seems to be the least favorite color of collectors in general, that is a bit of a problem. Not to mention that so many colors are lacking: There's no red, no orange, no shiny green, no pink, no purple, no teal, no white (which looks good with almost any other color) and hardly anything really shiny. In other words: The drake breeding group is small and pretty dull. (That is not supposed to mean that any one concept is bad, I actually find most of the sprites quite gorgeous, glory and glaucuous drakes being among my favorite sprites on DC.)

 

The consequences are pretty obvious: There aren't many people who collect drakes, and there are hardly any drake breeding projects around. (It's also quite obvious that lineaged drake eggs are very rare in the AP. Can't remember when I last saw one.) And there aren't that many drake concepts in the completed requests. Of course, there are some, but the competition from other breeding groups means that it's not very likely we'll see another drake anytime soon. Looking through the completed section with 400+ concepts in it, I found 9 drake concepts, three of which are predominantly green. (Although I might not have found all, as not all are obviously marked as drakes, and even the adult descriptions can be confusing, as with the Quetzal Drake's.)

 

Which all leads to one conclusion: Drakes need a change. Whether this change is to add lots more drakes to the site itself or to change drake canon and add them to the regular dragon breeding pool as equally intelligent dragon breeds is what we should concentrate on.

 

Now, considering the vast amount of drake concepts around, adding them all won't help the breeding group much. Plus, there's a similar problem for both two-headed dragons and pygmies, which could all do with some love. Not to mention that there'd still be no true red, no true orange, no special shiny, no purple, no true black among the drake breeding group. (Unless there's more in some secret place, which I wouldn't know about.) All of this makes adding more drakes to the site rather unfeasible for the purpose of making them more popular.

 

On the other hand, tweaking the lore in up to two places (regarding intelligence and maybe size of drakes) plus using dragon and drake interchangeably on DC would allow us much more freedom with breeding, thus enabling us to combine our favorite drake sprites with pretty much everything we have on DC. Of course, this would ruffle some feathers. And, of course, TJ has to abide by the artists' wishes, which means this is not going to happen if only one of them puts their foot down. But would it be that much worse than keeping the status quo, or even giving us a year of drake-only releases? (People won't be too happy about that, I dare say, as drakes aren't exactly popular.)

 

So, yes, I think that it wouldn't hurt (all that much) to include drakes in the dragon breeding group if the lore is adjusted a little. As a matter of fact, I consider it the most viable option at the moment.

 

I'd even go so far as to include two-headeds in the same group. Yes, I know, they have two heads. Like conjoined twins. Wow. But dragons don't really use their heads to *do-this-icky-stuff-that's-not-PG-13-to* make babies, do they? So what does the number of heads have to do with it in the first place? (I could imagine a higher rate of refusals, as either head of a two-headed dragon could refuse the one-headed mate, resulting in two separate rolls for refusals - but apart from that?)

[AGYK]

I'd even go so far as to include two-headeds in the same group. Yes, I know, they have two heads. Like conjoined twins. Wow. But dragons don't really use their heads to *do-this-icky-stuff-that's-not-PG-13-to* make babies, do they? So what does the number of heads have to do with it in the first place? (I could imagine a higher rate of refusals, as either head of a two-headed dragon could refuse the one-headed mate, resulting in two separate rolls for refusals - but apart from that?)

Genetics. I'm not sure something designed to have two heads and something designed to have one head will exactly be compatible. Much smaller breed differences cause incompatibilities IRL. The rest of what you say makes sense to me, although I'd favor a year of drake releases over cutting the group.

 

Heck, for introducing more drakes, TJ could very slowly pair them with normal releases. Say, one drake release paired with every other normal release. This way people who don't like drakes won't get huffy, those who want the drake breeding pool expanded will slowly get what they want, and hopefully doing one paired release every 2 months instead of every 1 is easier on TJ.

[Tango]

 

I do agree more pygmies, 2heads, and even drakes need released. The unfortunately problem is that we're in a negative feedback loop. Users don't want to suggest D2Ps because nobody is too interested in collecting them -> nobody suggests D2Ps -> there aren't enough choices to choose cave-ready D2Ps to release -> D2Ps continue to be extremely limited release groups -> nobody wants to suggest D2Ps because nobody is too interested in collecting them because they're not being released -> etc., etc., etc.

It's great to see some discussion on this: To address the people saying 'why don't we just release more drakes' Yes, it would work but we have problems with that. As stated so clearly by sock. I'm no expert on dragon releases but I assume the majority comes from the completed section, there are more DINOS than there are drakes on there. Nobody wants to make drakes because nobody likes drakes all that much because drakes are too limited. One way to change this is to make them less limited, let them breed with regular dragons.

 

The reason I say regular dragons rather than pygmies is there's really not that much mentioned of their size and the sprites make more sense as regular dragons. Excluding the pumpkin pygmies all have small sprites (Another problem I have with drake characteristics

[olympe]

Don't get me wrong, I know genetics. Quite well, actually. But since genetics obviously do not apply to DC (lack of hybrids with only a few exceptions, breeding between vastly different types of dragons like wyrms, amphitheres, Eastern and Western dragons, wingless quadrupedals, wyverns, lindworms and even sea serpents), I don't see why they should be so important in this case.

 

Dragons can interbreed whether they have no limbs at all, 1 set of limbs, 2 sets of limbs or even 10 (like snow angels with their three sets of wings and four legs).

Dragons can interbreed whether they have two tails (Swallowtails), one tail or hardly any tail at all (yulebucks).

Dragons can interbreed even if one breathes water and the other air.

Whether they're airbound, earthbound, waterbound or whatever else they could be bound to.

They can breed with each other, even if one of the partner spouts fleshy appendages (Greenwings) or whole vines.

 

So why would it make a differnce if one dragon had two heads and the other didn't?

And what happens if a multi-headed concept like Zmey or 7-headed get released? Will they be stuck in their very own breeding group, as was the case with the original pygmies, splits and ochredrakes?

 

The problem with releasing lots of drakes is that there are hardly any finished drake concepts around. (On the completed list, they seem to make up roughly 2% of all concepts.) Plus, they still lack variety. Even with all the nine drake concepts I found on the completed list being added to DC, there are various colors missing. Completely, I might add. No red drakes to be seen. No orange ones. No true black drakes. (I found a white one, though.) No purple, no pink, no teal.

Edited February 24, 2016 by olympe

[Tango]

A few examples of opened up breeding:

 

They can be beautiful

[xeyla]

I never understood why two-heads couldn't breed with the "regular" dragons. I don't like the fact that drakes are stuck to other drakes either. I understand that "regular" dragons are smart and drakes are not, but that shouldn't stop true love from happening.