Option to view updated sprites differently

[Fuzzbucket]

To the artists - and specifically to Fi. In this thread, I am reminded of a truly horrible experience I had years ago. I got a book out of the library. It was BRILLIANT. I loved it. I hadn't ever seen anything by this author before. I wanted more.

 

In a fit of "no-one ever says nice things to people" I wrote to the author to tell her how much I had enjoyed the book, and that I wanted to buy a copy, but it seemed to be OOP.

 

Her response put me off ever reading her stuff again. I can't quote directly, but it boiled down to her wishing I hadn't ever read it, it was her first book (ed. I lie; looked it up and it was her third...), she was ashamed of it, it was appalling and now that I had reminded her of it, she was going to ask libraries to pull it.

 

GREAT validation of my own experience with it and of my taste. NO hint of thanks for liking it but you're mad, even (I must see if I can find it again... )

 

Please don't make us feel like that, spriters. If we love your old tatty work - can't we keep it and you get to draw our attention to how much better your NEW work is ?

 

(But the silver lineage view DOES need something doing to it...)

Edited December 5, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[danicast]

My 2 cents on that matter.

When I joined the site my friend, who invited me to join, showed me a gold dragon (and gave me one) and I loved the sprite. I thought it was solid, elegant and I wanted to get more of them. Some time later I learned that this wasn't the "old sprite" but a new updated one and that many people hated the sprite "because the older one was better". I didn't even know the wikia yet. I asked my friend if there was any way to see the old sprite because I wanted to see and make my own opinion and I wanted to understand why some people were so attached of the old sprite. My friend pointed the wikia to me.

When I finally saw the old gold I could not believe in my eyes and could not believe that that sprite could have been the reason for such comotion because it was so technically outdated and ugly that it was unbelievable to me that one single person could not prefer the new sprite. I was very happy that the sprite was updated and all the traces of the old sprite were wiped away from DC.

This feeling happened over and over again every time I saw an old sprite that it was replaced. To this day I never ever saw one single old sprite that made me thought "oh the old one was much better".

 

I really think people get attached to old sprites for emotional reason. I am 100% sure about it because I like the old nillia pygmy better than the new one and I am aware that it's an emotional choice and not an objective one. The new nillia have much more quality than the old one, I was just used in see the old one in my scroll. I know that eventually I will forget about the old sprite.

 

This is what is going to happen to the silvers too, people will forget the old one and if they look to the old sprite in the future they will shake their heads and say "OMG but the new one is so much superior, what I was thinking?!"

It's just an emotional attachment.

[Fuzzbucket]

That doesn't alter the fact that some lineages have changed to look positively unpleasant with the new sprite. And sure - anyone is attached to anything for emotional reasons. How else is one attached to things ? An attachment is an emotional thing, pure and simple.

 

We won't forget the old sprite. Just as we haven't forgotten the old gold you think so awful. OR, indeed, the pinks... which were done in a different way.

[danicast]

I think keep remembering old sprites that were removed from the site only brings suffering. If you want to keep suffering, go ahead, it's your choice.

I think it's a better choice to move on and forget.

I liked the old silvers and I enjoyed to have them in my scroll. But the new silver is much more beautiful and modern so I already moved on.

It's not the first sprite that it was updated and will not be the last one. The site needs to keep evolving. Hold onto the past only troubles the mind. I prefer to move on.

[stagazer_7]

I really think people get attached to old sprites for emotional reason. I am 100% sure about it because I like the old nillia pygmy better than the new one and I am aware that it's an emotional choice and not an objective one. The new nillia have much more quality than the old one, I was just used in see the old one in my scroll. I know that eventually I will forget about the old sprite.

 

This is what is going to happen to the silvers too, people will forget the old one and if they look to the old sprite in the future they will shake their heads and say "OMG but the new one is so much superior, what I was thinking?!"

It's just an emotional attachment.

I'll have to disagree that people like older sprites because of nostalgia only, this may be the case for you, but definitely not for me - in the specific case of Nillias, I liked my Pumpkin x female Nillia lineage better before because the sprite itself was more compact and filled out the lineage view square better compared to the new sprites, which have a completely different pose and the viewer only encompasses half the sprite and leaves the rest of the square empty. It has nothing to do with nostalgia, but rather with how the sprite looks in my lineages - and it's simply not the same, with or without my nostalgia goggles.

 

So, no I doubt I'll suddenly start loving a sprite that is not very appealing to me just because there is nothing else available - I don't hate the new Nillia's or Silvers, I'm usually very open to changes and am always excited whenever an update is announced, liking many of the changes, but I don't always like every update when it comes out, that is a matter of personal taste and not everyone is going to enjoy the same things (good thing too, the world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things ).

 

I only wish updating was done a bit more carefully and remember the players that are attached to the existing sprites and have been collecting and playing with them, sometimes for years, too. As far as I'm concerned, when a sprite is released, that is a complete, finite work - if not, then they really should belong in the WIP section where it can be drastically modified in any way desired (I draw, so I understand the desire to improve and seeing old artwork as lacking compared to all the new work being created, but when I draw a picture for someone and give it to them as a gift, I don't come back after 2 years and ask them if I can redraw it, because I've improved in working with gradients and can draw the sky on that picture more realistically and make it look prettier).

 

I am not a sprite artist but I am an artist.  I feel there is a huge difference between putting my best work in a portfolio and putting something out for public consumption in a way that people are going to rely on the SPECIFIC look of the art in completing the goals that the art has been designed to allow them to do.  There is a difference between giving my art to someone or a site to use versus acting like that person or site is the keeper of my own art portfolio.

Basically this.

 

Now, I'm not saying no updating should be done, but rather that it should be done carefully and only that which is absolutely necessary like the most glaring anatomical and shading errors and do absolutely all to try to preserve as much of the old sprite's essence as humanely possible.

Edited December 5, 2015 by stagazer_7

[danicast]

Now, I'm not saying no updating should be done, but rather that it should be done carefully and only that which is absolutely necessary like the most glaring anatomical and shading errors and do absolutely all to try to preserve as much of the old sprite's essence as humanely possible.

I wish I could find TJ answer to this but I have no idea in which thread it is. He answered this question in other thread saying that updates will be made every time that he judges that they are necessary and not always these updates will be submitted to general appreciation. I really wish I could find this post.

 

What I say is that despite the fact that we are users, the site doesn't belong to us, it belongs to TJ and we have to trust that he and the spriters always does the best work that they can. I know that TJ is very worried about the quality of the site.

 

[Tehya Faye]

I think this is the post you're talking about?

 

I'm all for any update that can be seen as an iterative, quantitative improvement (and, despite this being art, some updates are indeed quantitative--lighting or anatomy that was incorrect being fixed is objectively better, despite potential opinions to the contrary).

 

Larger improvements or complete revamps are cause to move slower, but I see no reason to hold back smaller anatomy and shading fixes (like the 09 Valentine changes) for "attachment" reasons.

 

Source

[danicast]

Yes, exactly. Thanks for finding.

[stagazer_7]

I wish I could find TJ answer to this but I have no idea in which thread it is. He answered this question in other thread saying that updates will be made every time that he judges that they are necessary and not always these updates will be submitted to general appreciation. I really wish I could find this post.

 

What I say is that despite the fact that we are users, the site doesn't belong to us, it belongs to TJ and we have to trust that he and the spriters always does the best work that they can. I know that TJ is very worried about the quality of the site.

I understand that the site and everything on it belongs to TJ and that ultimately it's his call to update sprites that look outdated to him and it's ridiculous to think that the intent behind updating is anything other then to make the DC gaming experience better for everyone. I also know that artists who do the updates invest a lot of love and care into the sprites they're updating and despite me not always liking what they create I always appreciate the effort and the good intent behind it. I believe that the majority of the player-base feels the same way and also that politely voicing our thoughts on the forums can be useful to the game creators, so they can see the reasons behind why some changes are accepted by one group and disliked by the other.

 

For the record, I'm not nearly bothered by the new Nillias and Silvers like some of the other players (until they start messing with Skywings, *don't* mess with my Skywing army! Unless you make them super-awesome, then it's ok. ), but the fact remains that the new sprites are very different then the old, in Nillia's and Horse's case (and probably others) by creating different poses by adding dimorphism and in Silver's case by re-spriting them in LL's style, creating a beautiful and yet completely new dragon, that happens to share some similarities with the replaced breed, in the process. I personally love the male Horse sprite, but I do understand that some lineages just don't look as nice after the sprite's pose changed.

 

DC is a very simple game, pretty much everything is based on how the dragon looks and if it looks nice to me, then I'm going to invest my time by collecting them and create lineages by pairing them up with dragons that I feel match their colors and pose. When the sprite is changed, all that careful planning falls apart - it's like suddenly changing a dual-weapon wielding bard class so that they can't use swords anymore and I end up with a bard with a bunch of sword skills that are pointless since these types of weapons are no longer of use to my class, basically making all my effort in leveling up that character and picking specific skills a waste of time - in DC you end up with a lineage where a dragon pairing looks unappealing and something you'd never invest your time in.

 

I think that updates along the lines of Hollies and Two-Headed dragons are somewhat better accepted because they managed to find the balance between modernizing the sprite while also preserving their characters and poses - I'm sure even these changes there were too drastic for some, but I suppose an update that would please everyone is simply not possible.

[skwerl56767]

Not entirely on-topic here, but I quite honestly want to see all of the lineages that people are saying are ruined now because of the sprite updates. I honestly do. And since angelicdragonpuppy seems to be a big fighter against the newest Silvers, I went and looked at the lineages in her signature. All of them. I scrutinized them and thought to myself "How do the lineages with Silvers in them look now, compared to what they would have looked like with the old sprites?"

The answer: better. They looked better. The Silvers now match the supreme beauty of those Tinsels, instead of looking weirdly flat and wonky like the other older sprites on DC. Gorgeous shading, better anatomy, flowing shining hair; trying not to get poetic here, but you get the point. So now I'm wondering what the huge fuss is about?

 

I understand that people don't like change, or crave nostalgic things, but I don't understand why this is still a problem? I looked at posts pointing out a poll on how much the Silvers should be updated, and the majority of the votes say people wanted a whole new look for them. And yet, now they're complaining about this overhaul? You say you want Silvers to have the quality of the most recent in-cave sprites, and yet you go back on your vote saying "Oh, those are too many changes! We wanted a big change, but not that change!" And then I compare the new Silvers to the old ones, and begin to wonder just how much was really changed? Same poses, same colors, same dimorphism, just about the same in every way except for minor details and anatomy/shading refinement; only the egg underwent a large enough revision to be considered greatly different, and you can't even keep eggs for long! What huge thing was changed that supposedly ruined so much? I can understand it with the Horses and Nilias better because they gained dimorphism, but in a way the Silvers didn't change any more than the Two-Headeds did; they look the same to me, just higher-quality.

On that note, the creators of the Silvers are probably very proud of this update, because it says right in the description: " Silver dragons are arguably one of the most beautiful types of dragons." And now they're one of the most beautiful types again, their sprite quality rivaling that of some of the newer releases'. So chances are even less likely now that the sprites will be tweaked again.

 

Usually I would play "compromiser" at this point, trying to find a happy medium for people by agreeing that yes, having a sort of museum for the old sprites, or a sort of "site skin" where you can apply the old sprites to the dragons could work, but it seems TJ already pointed out that the old sprites were dumped and are no longer available. So for nostalgic sake, I say go for the wikia; I never knew about the "butter Golds" until I visited the wikia and saw those old sprites, and the old Silvers are still on there as well. As for the lineage argument, of all of that hard work being destroyed, I argue you just don't want change. I viewed so many Silver lineages today, and none of them looked any less good then they did before, and that's assuming they didn't look better. The only thing that could possibly make the lineages look worse is that the sprite images are slightly blurry because the majority of the dragon was cropped to fit the picture, ending up with it looking smaller than before. That's it. And even then, there's a very simple way to fix this; make a suggestion to have Silvers in lineages be larger so they're less blurry(luckily someone seemed to recognize this and the thread does exist).

 

Oh, and about the Two-Headeds being brushed off because the amount of change they underwent is less than that of the Silvers; I don't believe it. I mean, the wings and faces of the dragon look completely different! I think they're being brushed off more because of popularity. Lots of people like the Two-Heades, the Nilias, and the Horses, but even more people like the Silvers alone.

 

Sorry not sorry if I'm coming off as rude. I'm just getting frustrated with this because I can't relate to the people who are opposed to the new Silver update. Give me even better reasons as to how the update ruined things though, and maybe I'll change my position on this.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Not entirely on-topic here, but I quite honestly want to see all of the lineages that people are saying are ruined now because of the sprite updates. I honestly do. And since angelicdragonpuppy seems to be a big fighter against the newest Silvers, I went and looked at the lineages in her signature. All of them. I scrutinized them and thought to myself "How do the lineages with Silvers in them look now, compared to what they would have looked like with the old sprites?"

The answer: better. They looked better. The Silvers now match the supreme beauty of those Tinsels, instead of looking weirdly flat and wonky like the other older sprites on DC. Gorgeous shading, better anatomy, flowing shining hair; trying not to get poetic here, but you get the point. So now I'm wondering what the huge fuss is about?

I'm not sure what lineages in my signature you were looking at, since while I do have a silver x silver tinsel line, it's not among my top rated silver lines.

 

While I feel my silver female lines came out relatively intact, male silver lines are the ones I worked on most, and the ones I feel were ruined. My most highly worked on and beloved lines were with tan ridgewings, shadow walkers, green coppers, rosebuds, royal blues and, priceless indeed, with the Spriter's Alt Shimmer Jewel.

 

Many of these lines relied strongly on the previous, less brilliant color of the silvers. Tan ridgewings and shadow walkers could hold their own without being overwhelmed against it, green coppers and rosebuds were a nice accent color against the shade, and the touch of dull silver in the royal blue's wings went super nicely with them. And in Jewel's case, the shades touched each other off so perfectly that the silver shimmer that came from them truly looked like the offspring between a silver and a Jewel. Now, however, the silver looks blindingly bright and almost washed out; the ridgewings and shadow walkers get overshadowed, the color clashes weirdly with coppers and rosebuds, royal blues don't match quite so perfectly, and Jewel's child no longer looks like the perfect offspring of the two. In fact, Jewel herself now doesn't stand out as much, because the silvers are so shockingly bright that the eyes go straight to them.

 

Now, obviously you came to different conclusions. And I'll give you this: the lineages aren't terrible looking when considered as a separate entity. HOWEVER, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and in my eyes, compared to what they are before, they are a jarring enough change that things I once treasured now look awful. If I'd been given a copy of those lines separately, then I could appreciate them, even if I didn't love them. But as replacements for the things I worked so hard on, they fall short. And I daresay the opinions of those who work to build these lines mean more than those who just glance at them casually. I put a lot of time into getting those dragons, darn it, through trading and hunting and bloodswapping, and now my eyes see disappointment where I once saw beauty. They aren't what I worked so hard to build. They don't look as good to me as they used to. I wouldn't have invested time in the first place if I'd known this was coming.

 

So, yah, because of that I AM pretty disappointed. And to be honest, while the new sprites are pretty (again as stand-alone things rather than replacements), I think they still have their issues; the hatchies look like little gerbils about to fall over, rather than the frail, delicate little babies they were before, and the female's back leg looks oddly stretched out and her hair too compact and dense, as if it were a sculpted shrub instead of flowing mane.

 

In summary, again, everyone's opinion of beauty differs, and here I feel that lineages I worked hard on have now lost their sparkle. I won't be taking most of them much further, and even then I'm just halfheartedly finishing up what I'd already started. If the silvers had been more like the hollies / splits in being almost perfect updates of the old, that would've been one thing, but right now I feel like my silvers got replaced by strange copycats instead of simply being revitalized.

[Odeen]

@ADP: I have seen multiple people in different places actually get excited about how much better most, if not all, of those lineages you call "ruined" look post-update, so as usual with these things your mileage may vary and your car may not run.

 

You have very strong opinions. Alas, the strength of one's conviction does not strengthen one's argument, and at the end of the day we're still falling into a mire of personal opinion getting in the way of objective progress. ETA: And by that I mean you've been pretty consistently against updating for ages, talking in consistently apocalyptic tones and inflating the displeasure of a few to support your attempts to have things made to suit a vocal minority at the expense of a more neutral-to-positive majority.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Odeen

[NotBambi]

While I feel my silver female lines came out relatively intact, male silver lines are the ones I worked on most, and the ones I feel were ruined. My most highly worked on and beloved lines were with tan ridgewings, shadow walkers, green coppers, rosebuds, royal blues and, priceless indeed, with the Spriter's Alt Shimmer Jewel.

Just took a look at those lineages. They are a thing of beauty. Forgive me if I agree with skwerl and can't figure out what was lost.

Edited December 6, 2015 by NotBambi

[Herk]

Just took a look at those lineages. They are a thing of beauty. Forgive me if I agree with skwerl and can't figure out what was lost.

Things CHANGED in a non-trivial way.

 

While I'm not someone unhappy with the update AT ALL. I can still see that some of my (or ADP's) lineages drastically changed their character. In my eyes some for better, a few for worse and on a couple I'm yet undecided if I like the new lineage better or worse than the old one. But they aren't the lineages we built anymore.

 

I know a lot of people who like Flingo lineages (Terces for example). In my opinion Tan Ridgewings are a WHOLE LOT prettier than Flingos. If someone replaced all of the Flingo sprites with Tan Ridges I'd be totally not affected in any relevant way. Could I emhasize with Terces being royally annoyed and unhappy - you bet I could.

 

On Topic - I'm still not in support of this, because of teh cost/effect ratio. I really hope though the differently croped lineage picture gets to be a thing because I think that would help at least with some issues.

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@ADP: I have seen multiple people in different places actually get excited about how much better most, if not all, of those lineages you call "ruined" look post-update, so as usual with these things your mileage may vary and your car may not run.

 

You have very strong opinions. Alas, the strength of one's conviction does not strengthen one's argument, and at the end of the day we're still falling into a mire of personal opinion getting in the way of objective progress. ETA: And by that I mean you've been pretty consistently against updating for ages, talking in consistently apocalyptic tones and inflating the displeasure of a few to support your attempts to have things made to suit a vocal minority at the expense of a more neutral-to-positive majority.

And I agreed, yes, what constitutes beauty will differ from person to person. However, as a general rule of thumb, people work with what they like and avoid what they dislike, so by nature you risk upsetting most the people who've invested the most when you change sprites.

 

Man alas is feeling more and more like a sarcastic word by the day. I've said numerous times that there have been updates I've been ok with or even loved. I like male purples a great deal while female purples bore me. The neglected update was a no-brainer and looks amazing. Whiptail update was sweet. But, yes, generally I'd err on the side against updates. Every time I see an update happen and someone who's worked hard and put more love into the breed than most of us feel sad about it, I have way more empathy for them than the people who are suddenly interested in a breed they didn't care about before, because it was the other people who had already put in the most effort. The nice thing about having so many different dragons is that there's something for everyone; we shouldn't have to change old breeds to cater to new people when there are already new breeds that cater to new people. (Note that in this case 'new' means 'people who weren't interested in the breed before', not 'newly joined DC'). I'd also argue that there have been a lot more than a few people unhappy about the silver update, which didn't happen as much with the holly / split updates (or with the horse dimorphism, interestingly), presumably because much of the originals were kept intact. (Even with the drastic changes to male horses, they still have the same exact color and style and work in lineages fairly similarly).

 

So ehhh as you say mileage will vary, I've loved some updates but hate this one, some people like my lineages more now while I find them super disappointing, but at the end I still think it's much more fair to the effort people put in collecting / building things here to keep what updates we do have very, very, veryyy close to the old ones... which has been done before, several times now, with amazing success.

 

Edit: Thank you, Herk, you hit it on the nail. Objectively the new silvers are a lot prettier than the old--even to me! But at the same time, they are a much more drastic change than the hollies / splits were, and my lines no longer what they once were. Most of my female silver lines relied on her pink mane, which didn't change much, and those lines are fine--but most of my male silver lines relied on the previous color heavily and that's totally gone now. I could have enjoyed making new lines with the new silvers if only they hadn't totally replaced what I'd already built with something else. Where others see pretty, I see loss.

Edited December 6, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[sene]

I do not have a lot of silver lineages to be honest, but wrapping wing, black marrow, and shadow walker seem not match silver anymore. Other dragons are flat, while the new silver tile look like a failed 3D effort. I also do not think it is fair to say people complain only because of nostalgia thing.

 

I looked at posts pointing out a poll on how much the Silvers should be updated, and the majority of the votes say people wanted a whole new look for them.

 

If you are talking about this poll, I do not think 36.4% is majority.

[NotBambi]

If you are talking about this poll, I do not think 36.4% is majority.

68.71% is majority, overwhelming majority.

[sene]

68.71% is majority, overwhelming majority.

Well, I'll say it depends on how you define "A good number of changes, but keeping aspects of the original". Since another option specifically said "Total overhaul with completely new lines and shading", I assume "new shading" is not included in "a good number of changes".

[KageSora]

See, the thing is, art is subjective. There is no wrong or right here, "better" and "worse" are entirely subjective things in the matter of how the sprite art works in the lines.

 

And that is the sticking point of the issue here. Users such as ADP have spent countless hours working on lines that they now, in their subjective view of the art, find to be things they no longer would have invested those hours into.

 

ADP also flat-out stated what was lost. She pointed out exactly why she liked those lines, in explicit detail. I can see exactly what she meant.

 

The lines aren't ugly objectively--but the muted, dulled look of the old sprite paired better with many of those lines in some of our eyes. The Royal Blues and the Shadow Walkers being very strong examples of that I feel.

 

Art is an incredibly subjective and often emotional thing. It is very hard to objectively say something is better. You may be able to objectively say something is more correct (anatomy errors are such a thing), but the idea of "better" is still a subjective view to many.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

68.71% is majority, overwhelming majority.

1) Poll doesn't include people who didn't want an update, period

2) Also the poll was kinda vague; what separates "A good number of changes, but keeping aspects of the original" from "Total overhaul with completely new lines and shading [likely the same pose as the originals"? I mean, I consider the holly and split updates to fit that first category, even though they did have completely new lines and shading. So...

 

It's not really worth arguing about either way, I'd just not be so quick to say most people wanted a totally drastic overhaul. I would've been okay with what was done to hollies being done to silvers because I consider it moderate, myself; other people might've voted for a total overhaul thinking of what I consider a moderate overhaul.

[NotBambi]

Well, I'll say it depends on how you define "A good number of changes, but keeping aspects of the original". Since another option specifically said "Total overhaul with completely new lines and shading", I assume "new shading" is not included in "a good number of changes".

Keywords: completely new vs "Minor tweaks only" aka 31.08%.

 

@ADP: and that is exactly why I opposed a poll in one of the most recent threads, it is easy to go with the most convenient interpretation. Summary: polls are useless.

Edited December 6, 2015 by NotBambi

[Nine]

 

 

Since this seems to be delving into a "sorry but your preference is wrong lol", I'll say the lineages don't look as good to me as they once did. I especially sympathize with the Rosebud one, since male Silver / Rosebud was one of the few Silver lineages I worked on too. The curl of his neck no longer matches hers so well, and his blurriness and color chngae from the darker grey-silvers don't work off of her stark differences in pink like I originally liked.

 

@ADP: I have seen multiple people in different places actually get excited about how much better most, if not all, of those lineages you call "ruined" look post-update, so as usual with these things your mileage may vary and your car may not run.

 

You have very strong opinions. Alas, the strength of one's conviction does not strengthen one's argument, and at the end of the day we're still falling into a mire of personal opinion getting in the way of objective progress. ETA: And by that I mean you've been pretty consistently against updating for ages, talking in consistently apocalyptic tones and inflating the displeasure of a few to support your attempts to have things made to suit a vocal minority at the expense of a more neutral-to-positive majority.

 

I don't think ADP has been against change at all, what a baffling thing to come to. They've stated so many times that they don't mind change in the slightest as long as it stays true and respectful to lineage builders, and I see more objectively positive output from their posts regarding revamps, suggestions, and changes to the site that seek to only benefit the user base.

 

I'm not going to get into a "match that to hypocrisy from the other side", but I will say that trying to lessen someone's argument for improvements to the site, for the benefit of users from all spectrums, while providing a different outlook on things than the vast majority appear incapable of, with phrasing like "inflating the displeasure of a few to support your attempts" at the "expense" of others, is more than just tasteless and abashedly incorrect. If you want to further de-credit the arguments and propositions of users based on, what I find, to be emotional charged intentions, I urge you to take a step back, calm down, and reapproach the forums with a clearer mind.

 

You're always welcome to send me a private message if you'd like to go on and describe my conspiratorially negative replies. Better to keep it out of a thread that seeks to improve the site as a whole for its users, after all.

 

Edit: sorry, I need to learn to quote posts before replying. Let me fix that.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Nine

[sene]

Keywords: completely new vs "Minor tweaks only" aka 31.08%.

Still I think the new silver update falls into the catalog of "overhaul" but everybody has different definition of "overhaul". Never mind, I think the problem now is lineage view at least for me.

[stagazer_7]

Oh, and about the Two-Headeds being brushed off because the amount of change they underwent is less than that of the Silvers; I don't believe it. I mean, the wings and faces of the dragon look completely different! I think they're being brushed off more because of popularity. Lots of people like the Two-Heades, the Nilias, and the Horses, but even more people like the Silvers alone.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the change on the Two-Headed dragons did not seem as dramatic to me - while there were changes in making the dragon's muscles better defined, minor changes to the shape of the head, legs and somewhat larger change to the wings with adding inverse colors of the membranes, the major things (to me) like color scheme and the pose was still kept practically identical and the dragon looks almost the same in lineage viewer as it used to before the update - my PB line didn't change much. They still feel like Two-Headed dragons since a lot of the original's art style was preserved. I'm not brushing off their update as less relevant, I simply like the new sprite and think the artist did a fine job balancing what to keep of the old and what new elements to add. Of course, perception of art is different and to others the changes on the Two-Headed's may look more more drastic to others.

 

The Silvers look different to me because while they kept their poses, everything else about them changed - the scale color is different and lighter, the manes look neater and less wild, the sprite's outline is soft, while the original's was crisp. They're beautiful dragons, no doubt, but I don't feel any of the original artist's style in them - they look like extremely well done fanart. I don't mind them or think they're awful, but to me they don't look or feel like the Silvers I worked with for years. I do agree that Silvers are by far the most popular breed among all who were updated and are receiving more scrutiny because of it. I like some Silver combinations better now and some of my lineages do not work as well as they used to - I don't like my Silver x Terra line as much as before, but find this combination nice. It's all subjective.

[Fiona]

Well, everyone is entitled to like what they like and not like what they don't like. For me, the silver x shadow walker lineages are more beautiful than ever. I wouldn't object to having the male silver be a bit larger in lineage view, but all those lineages that ADP posted as "ruined" to me are absolutely beautiful. I certainly intend to continue mine.

 

However, the point of this thread was to suggest that players be allowed to see either old or new sprite in lineage view and that I don't think is a good idea for the game. I don't know that I was as clear as I could have been about my thinking before, and don't really want to get into it now.